*Nods approvingly*
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
You say that as though the time savings are an undeniable fact. In my
experience using CSS increases the initial template build and testing
time but
From: Mordechai Peller
What ever you do you'll still have problems with accessibility.
Scrolling text will always be a problem with epilepsy, visually
impaired, and motor impaired (clicking a moving target).
Exactly. It struck me as interesting that the original poster wants
to avoid JS
xhtml is the client's request - they don't see the point of
undergoing
a major redevelopment without being up to date (as an example
to their
own clients among other things).
This was made clear at the start of the project but i gather that the
technology decisions had already been
Mozilla is acting correctly. By floating the #menu, you've removed it from the normal
flow of the document...hence, it does not take up space height-wise, and therefore does
not stretch the container.
An initial fix is to add clear: both; to your #footer...
Patrick
Bill,
funnily enough, this is a problem I've come across recently myself.
The only way around it that I can think of is to do the calculation
of padding/margin based on your font size by hand.
In your example, if you want a 10em margin around your h1, but
you've already set your h1 to 1.5em
so it doesn't make any sense to measure it other
than relative to the current size
actually, it does make a lot of sense, as the original poster
wants the whole measurements to be relative, but all
based on a unified measure, not the current size of the
current element.
P
winmail.dat
Standard western order: left to right, top to bottom. In case
of nested tables, the browser recursively does this for the content
of cells containing tables as well.
You could use a text browser such as Lynx or BrailleSurf to test
linearisation.
Patrick
Patrick
Is it just me, or does it take a good quarter of an hour for emails
to appear on the list?
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
*
The discussion list for
One question, though: When this table is linearized will it still make sense?
In the case of properly coded (read: with correct table headings, scope, etc)
data tables, meaningful linearisation should be taken care of by the user agent.
Don't worry about it...this should not, in my view anyway,
This is arguably an obsolete rule. I would posit that it does not
apply to cases in which links are contained within completely
separate block level elements (e.g. unordered lists' items). It is,
however, good practice to still use some sort of separator (pipe,
or even a non-breaking space
You can get clever and offer abbreviations and such - I believe the
attribute is 'abbr'? - but I don't have an URL handy.
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.6
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
Im having trouble understanding how you think IE7 would be broken?!
you're obviously missing the point. this refers to the .htc/behaviour
based hack stylesheet to get the current IE to behave in a more
standards-compliant way http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/
(but see, that's what happens when
It seems to me that the web developer/designer community spends a huge
amount of time whinging about the browser developers and
their product's
non-compliance, when the answer to the problem lies in their
own hands.
The onus is shared between content developers, browser developers, users
I do not know what industry you work in but in every industry I have
worked in there is a great need for pixel precise layouts.
When you go through 13 rounds of changes with a client and discuss
things like the letter spacing on single superscript letters then you
just might have to put
How cute.
What good are standards when browsers change so fast by adding new features
every month? Or, the needs and demands of the users change with the latest killer app?
It appears that your friend has been living in a cave since the browser wars...
The rest is the usual well, these big sites
Yeah, but you should s'plain a bit, IMO.
If the biggies ignore the standards scenario, what are *we* doing?
Ok, let's expand a bit. There are at least two reasons why the biggies
are ignoring standards: the speed of change in large organisations
(management can often move at the speed of
Who would be completely happy with the Standards set in 1992?
Didn't the late nineties Browser wars come up with
non-standard stuff that's now included in the standard.
Yes, but: before becoming part of the standard, most of these innovations
were extended, expanded, generalised and made
Tested with JAWS 4.02, and yes, it reads it as search.
That's not to say, though, that all screenreaders behave this way...
Let me guess...underlines for accesskeys ?
One thing that worries me about doing those sorts of things is that
the result is very...non semantic. Not sure how, say, search
Sounds
interesting, but...I can do all that already withsome find/replaces, so
I'm
not
sure if people will be willing to pay for it (even if $5 is such a low
price).
Or are
you planning to have your tool parse the actual CSS, rather than
simply
looking for occurences of comments, spaces,
There's two schools of thought:
1) navigation first, content second, with a skip to the content link
2) content first, navigation second, with a skip to the navigation link
It's often argued that 2) is better for SEO, as it top-loads your documents,
putting your relevant content fairly high up
I found it interesting that the IHT article page does
not work unless you have javascript enabled...
and even when it *is* enabled, their navigation (hitting
the third column to move to the next page) is fairly non
standard, and is not backed up by any other cues to the
user (heck, even a tooltip
From: Andrew Sione Taumoefolau
[...]
I'm not sure that we differ on this point.
after re-reading your message, you're right. As I skimmed over
the 100 odd emails in this list's folder that accumulated over
the weekend, I could have sworn you had written MUST NOT, instead
of SHOULD NOT.
Ah, I
Despite some minor flaws, Joe Clark's Building Accessible Websites
is still one of the best around.
Captioning of quicktime (you mean via SMIL, I assume) is still not widely
implemented due to flaky support in certain areas
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2004AprJun/0651.html
Of
If I'm not mistaken, a single fieldset around your entire form content
will do the trick. So, just change
form
...
/form
to
form...
fieldset
...
/fieldset
/form
Patrick
-Original Message-
From: Barry Beattie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Fri 02/07/2004
Keep in mind that you can't have id or class attributes on the HTML
element (not in xhtml, nor html4). Apply them to the BODY instead.
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
-Original Message-
From: Mordechai
Derek,
have a read through
http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2003/xhtml-style-script/
...but to answer the question quickly: it should work if you use
//![CDATA[
//]]
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
This breaks down though, for references like this in the page for
bookmarklets (pardon the length):
but wouldn't you say that bookmarklets are a bit of a perversion of
the standard, in which case it becomes academic to discuss how these
can be served in a standards-compliant way?
or is it just
This may be of interest
http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/39758
In short, you could avoid the problem completely by using
a 24bit PNG for the background, rather than using opacity.
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
From: Lee Roberts
[...]
It's bad enough everyone
thinks they need
to do it, but for an accessibility group to do it I'm flabbergasted.
most current screenreaders / assistive technologie hook into IE in some way
to provide web browsing. so it's still a harsh reality that some user groups
WILL
It could be
that if padding, border and margin values are set (let's say
to zero) the widths of the different form controls may be the
same - or at least a bit closer ;)
I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Form elements are notoriously
difficult to consistently style, as they are
Is the issue that giving an element float makes
the browser treat it as a block element?
LI is a block level element by default, so you can apply width, regardless
of whether or not it's floated.
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
Gah...not this discussion again...
Acronyms are a subset of abbreviations. All acronyms are
abbreviations, but not all abbreviations are acronyms.
Now, once it comes to defining what an acronym is, there's
cultural/regional differences as well: some argue that
acronyms need to be pronounceable,
Maybe a slight stretch, but how about wrapping these related elements
(label, input, etc) up in their own fieldset, and using the legend
for that text (thus associating it with the (input and label within).
form...
fieldset
legendThis is the title of your news post
(does not accept HTML
If you are using base from day one
you only need to change the path within one tag.
But you still need to do it for every page in your site that uses it...
So we are comparing the merit of making find/replaces site wide for
all links vs. find/replace site wide for a specific tag.
Or am I
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dynatext/
-Original Message-
From: Olajide Olaolorun [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 July 2004 09:57
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Smooth fonts with CSS
hmmm I know just what I can do.
I could probaly use a little PHP and
I'd argue that the best compromise are elastic layouts, where things
are positioned and sized in relation to other factors like font size.
To say that if we just set our width to 100% or something
and rejoice that the site will work in all sizes is misguided;
there will always be extremes at both
From: Andy Budd
[snip]
So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack
or are you
hack free?
Pretty much hack free here as well. Only thing I may use occasionally
is using import to hide things from generation 4 browsers (and
occasionally exploiting the flawed handling of single
From: Geoff Deering
[snip]
If you are designing for handheld you should be considering
display:none for
the none content columns, header and footer and just be using the link
element for prev, next, etc. Some sort of minimalist
approach may be more
appropriate for that media.
actually,
Just to pipe in on one small detail I noticed (not just in this
message, but I'll piggy back onto it here)
Normally I would say avoid using hacks by taking time to
build the css
properly,
It's often not just the CSS that needs to be changed to work
properly, but it's a case of revisiting
I'd suggest using Scott Andrews' addEvent helper function
(see http://www.scottandrew.com/weblog/articles/cbs-events)
function addEvent(obj, evType, fn, useCapture){
if (obj.addEventListener){
obj.addEventListener(evType, fn, useCapture);
return true;
} else if (obj.attachEvent){
Does it use features specific to Flash7, and Browser Cam only has
6? (as I don't use Browser Cam I'm not sure if that last bit actually
applies, but thought I'd throw that in as a potential cause)
Work for me anyway on Win2k/Moz1.6/Flash7
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
As already mentioned, it's due to the url rewriter. You need to
get it to write the session id inside a fieldset, and not directly
in the form.
So: add a fieldset around your form's content and then have a look at
http://uk.php.net/manual/en/ref.session.php#ini.url-rewriter.tags.
As I don't have
From: Andy Budd
Web Essentials 04 looks like is turning out to be one killer event. I
wish it was a little closer to home so I could make it.
Yup, same thoughts here...
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
Keeping in mind that overflow-x was originally an IE only proprietary extension, which
has since found its way into the CSS3 draft, meaning that most non-IE browsers at this
point don't support it. Firefox, for instance, doesn't work with the example you give
(although I hear that a recent
display:none has been discourages early on in the whole image
replacement discussion, as it completely hides the element
from screen readers.
Patrick
-Original Message-
From: Lorenzo Gabba @ Quirk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 08 September 2004 14:52
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:
www.editize.com offers solid performance and (despite its limited support for any but
the most common xhtml elements) value for money, if you don't mind the fact that it's
a java applet.
Patrick
-Original Message-
From: Olajide Olaolorun [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 16 September
I'd remind you to replace some of the alt tags though
(intro1.jpg etc).
The client controls those. I'll remind them to make their alt tags
accessible.
They're attributes...ATTRIBUTES...not tags!
Sorry, bit of a rant. Feel better now ;)
Patrick
Option 3 for me, on the grounds that yes, it's a list, but that the
order of the list items is important (as it effectively denotes a
step-by-step path from the site's home page to the current page, and
these steps need to be taken in that particular order). It's this
hierarchy inherent in the
Weird indeed. From home, I see the new table-less design. From work here, it's still
the old one...
Patrick
-Original Message-
From: Tony Crockford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 September 2004 09:15
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Yahoo CSS'ing
I'm a bit
You need to move input type=hidden name=submitted value=1 inside a block level
element (in your case, move it into the fieldset which immediately follows it). Also,
as it's an empty element, you need to make it self-closing
input type=hidden name=submitted value=1 /
Patrick
-Original
Stefan,
crashes such as the one on your site are usually caused by something in the CSS that
IE doesn't like. I didn't get a chance to actually look through it, but I'd suggest
commenting out your different blocks in the stylesheet, one at a time, and trying to
isolate the problem that way.
I'll mention http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/49/ but hope that
it won't lead to the usual purist's outrage scream (unless Lachlan's about)
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
From: Trovster
I have started a little site for the promotion of Firefox
http://firefox.trovster.com
Not to sound like a party pooper, but...why not spend energy
contributing to the official http://www.spreadfirefox.com,
rather than fragmenting the landscape with a separate new site?
I'm all
From: Mike Pepper
Jad,
Check out file:///H:/Inetpub/wwwroot/premiumsofas/bellagio_sofas.htm
Can't check your H drive, Mikey boy ;)
The correct address is http://www.premiumsofas.co.uk/bellagio_sofas.htm
P
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
From: Nancy Johnson
1. Where can I find a good example of how forms should be laid out
for accessibility.
Two decent ones:
http://www.webaim.org/techniques/forms/
http://www.accessify.com/tutorials/better-accessible-forms.asp
2. Comment on div tags. If we are not suppose to use tables for
From: Mike Foskett
Sorry Patrick,
Yes I was stating the image is a data object which comprised
of many individual characteristics (data definitions), sorta
XML stylie.
I was also suggesting that Phone number was not necessarily
attached to the address, but definitely attached to the
From: Indranil Dasgupta
give it an a href= id=one and style appropriately. Hopefully it
will work.
If you did that, you'd need a rule for each link, as they all need a separate ID. If
anything, you'd use a class here, if there is even the remote possibility that you may
want to apply the
From: Lyn Patterson
I have navigational links in the css with a:hover etc etc for those
links that appear in the navigation lists. How do I style individual
links amongst text such as
pPlease visit oura href=events.html EVENTS/a page for
details of
.../p
so that they match the
From: Lyn Patterson
www.mwg.green.net.au/testpages/plants.html
I'd add something like
#content p a:hover { color: rgb(204, 68, 68); }
to the stylesheet. Should do the trick. If you just want
to affect the links in that particular bit, you'll have to
do something like create a class (as said
You seem to have applied the background image to the #overskrift
as well, which is why it appears to be repeating vertically...
remove the reference to that background image in your css and
you should be fine.
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of
IE doesn't support auto margins for centering. Instead, use the following
trick: add text-align: centre to body, and (to neutralise the effect on
the rest of the page itself), add text-align: left to #container.
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of
From: Rimantas Liubertas
IE6 does support this method in standards mode.
You learn something new every day...
Cheers,
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
**
The
From: Jeroen Visser [ vizi ]
Mark Harwood wrote:
Hey list,
Right im using the good old methord of nice pop-ups as shown by
by idol youngpup (http://youngpup.net/2003/popups) now as soon
as you use onClick in your HTML WebXACT and Bobby throw up a fit
saying that it does not pass
From: Alan Milnes
It may not be the way to do it but it's the way it's taught at the
article you reference:
Oldie but goldie on the subject:
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/03/19/dive-into-xml.html
Aeh...where exactly?
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster /
From: Scott Villarosa
you know, that site is good (even though personally i don't like the
look)... but i must say... how practical is the technology used given
today's market? just a thought.
As it's completely inaccessible when javascript is disabled/unavailable,
I'd say the market is
Title: Message
Hmm...wonderful non-sequitur...
Oh...I
like bread by the way.
Patrick
-Original Message-From: Laurie Keith
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 12 November 2004
12:04To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] RE:
digest for [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I
have
Adobe
From: designer
Clearly, the use of ems is just a nightmare, esp when you have several
images and have to guess what the em dimensions are,
Images should still be specified in pixels, imho, as pixel size is an
intrinsic property of raster images. I'd posit (but admittedly it's my
personal
From: Jeroen Visser [ vizi ]
[...]
I know of no limitations in IE6 when doing this, and it saves some
coding too. The improved box-model isn't reason enough to
debug several
versions of IE/win. IE/win can be made to almost behave like a good
browser should-- in quirks mode.
It's
From: Andrey V. Stefanenko
Why validator do not accept source with application/xhtml+xml ?
The validator does not send out application/xhtml+xml in its accept header, so
your script is behaving correctly by sending it text/html. You may wish to do
something like adding code that looks for an
Leslie,
I'm trying to figure out if you were being serious, or just sarcastic...
but interestingly enough, I was actually going to do a quick transcript
of it this weekend and nudge Jeffrey to make that available as well.
I could also have a stab at SMIL...could be an interesting little
http://diveintoaccessibility.org/ gives you a good little overview.
Patrick H. Lauke
-Original Message-
From: Tim Burgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 25 November 2004 10:11
To: [WSG] Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
Hi,
I've done
From: Nick Lo
I'm curious if and how you are all using the address tag.
[snip]
However, the specs above don't make it fully clear if what
I'm doing is
wrong or right. The phrase to supply contact information for a
document or a major part of a document seems to rule out it's most
From: Sam Hutchinson
W3C validation - pages validate when I run the URL through
the validator,
but for some reason my pages and Logo's linking to
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=referer has stopped working
in IE (6.02) -
anyone else seen this, or know of a decent workaround?!?!
I'll
From: Nick Lo
On experimenting with it it also appears that address is an inline
element so fails to validate if you put e.g. a dl inside it.
Oops...I only tried it locally, and trusted the firefox Tidy extension
to flag this up...but it didn't. Ho hum, you're right...this only
strengthens
From: Sam Hutchinson
this in itself is an example of a browser/OS affecting
accessibility.
Actually, it's a good example of something else: don't rely on any
outside data that's not under your direct control. Having a system
that purely relies on referers, and breaks down when they're not
At the risk of, once again, going off topic (which this whole thread
probably already is)...
From: Sam Hutchinson
Anyone out there doing this? I'd like to have a look at the
code in order to
implement it.
To use PHP as an example
a href=http://validator.w3.org/check?amp;uri=?php echo
From: Kornel Lesinski
Does that really matter?
In Firefox and IE there is a focus border anyway.
Which is not always visible, depending on specific background colour and or
background pattern/image
IE doesn't support :focus or outlines, so there isn't much
you can help.
Well,
From: designer
When would you (usefully) use dfntextdfn?
Indicates that this is the defining instance of the enclosed term.
The way I understand it - and I may be wrong - would be something
like:
dfn title=This is the definitionterm/dfn
Semantically, a bit like an inline, single item
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
People who can read a website using their site is normally
able to ignore spelling mistakes
I'm sure the irony of getting that sentence wrong
(People...*are*...) is not lost on the list.
I'd surmise that it's off topic, nonetheless.
Patrick
From: Joey
I am curious as to why Firefox only understands the title
attribute when creating tool tips, why cant we just use ALT?
Cause if we want tool tips on our sites to work on all browsers
this means we have to enter an ALT TITLE attribute which doubles
the code for the same thing?
From: Johannes Reiss
a href=xxximg src=xxx alt=yyy title=yayaya
But I always prefer:
a href=xxx title=yayayaimg src=xxx alt=yyy
Is it wrong how I do it?
It depends on what information you're providing with the
title. Are you clarifying something about the image, or
about the resource you're
From: Johannes Reiss
Because I always give information about the KB of the large
image, I think
it's right to give the TITLE to the a href-Tag.
Exactly, as the information about KB refers to the large version
you're linking TO, rather than the thumbnail itself, the title is
indeed best off
Thought this may be of interest (at least to those who can read german)
http://www.vorsprungdurchwebstandards.de/
The name made me chuckle, in any case :)
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
From: Chris Stratford
I dont know if I explained it correctly - or if you
understoood what I
meant.
But the problem I am having is the LIST BULLET are printing
in IE, but
not FF...
Ah ok, I thought you had used trickery with background images.
Fair enough, it looks like a wrong-ish
Not going to fix all issues (like the two columns being slightly too wide to
fit),
but just concentrating on the background:
- as all your elements are outside of the normal document flow, your container
only has normal content up until it hits #main. to redress this, add
#footer { clear: both;
From: berry
I would like to know if I can insert image into list ?
I have used this method by the past but in an article I read
that it was
not standard?
w3 say nothing about that ?
The best way to find out if it's standard as per W3C is to run
it through the validator
From: Paul Farrell
Am I correct in understanding that an ordered list is the best way of
marking up a breadcrumb system that shows where a user has been ?
For my own part, I'd say yes (as the steps are in order, and the order
is important)...but other people may have other ideas of what is
From: Natalie Buxton
This discussion has finally convinced me that breadcrumb trails should
not be marked up as lists.
Without the entire path, it doesn't matter where the actual href goes.
For instance: I tell a user that the file they want is in the folder
widgets. They go looking
From: russ - maxdesign
I remember when I first
started getting into CSS, code like this would make me freak out:
[...]
So, for those that are reasonably new to CSS, I'd thought I'd
break it down
into bite size pieces.
And for those rare occasions where Russ isn't handily available to
Sorry to cross-post my reply, but:
From: Lauke Patrick
Sent: 08 December 2004 11:17
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Text email newsletter standard
From: Mike Brown
has anyone come across, or used, the following text email newsletter
standard:
http://www.headstar.com/ten/
Yes, stumbled
From: Kornel Lesinski
So make it stop working.
I think that employee saying Boss! This doesn't work!
is the best
way to educate employers...
Sorry, but that's rubbish. For accessibility (and, heck, good manners even)
the information on your site should be navigable and usable by
From: Charlie Barr
A client on an old website we designed is asking us about putting up
Quick Time videos on their website. [...] what would
be the best way to have them available.
Why not just link to the .mov file? It will then open in whatever
way the users want, or at least give them
From: Gary Menzel
PERL questions should be directed to a PERL list as PERL is a
scripting language and NOT a web standard.
The question was about HTTP and MIME, which - in my mind - do
fall under web standards...
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster /
From: berry
Most of us have developped application using DOM which maybe
will not be
valid with the new standard especially with XHTML 2.0 and DOM3.
So? Nobody will be forcing you to switch your site to XHTML 2.0 or
any other technology. The whole point of having DOCTYPEs is to identify
If i may be so bold as to blow my own trumpet for a minute:
http://www.splintered.co.uk/news/29/
-
the lovely molly holzschlag gets a makeover courtesy of redux, stylist
to the stars.
http://www.molly.com/2004/12/22/the-medusa-look/
the new look was actually created quite a long time ago (see
From: Andy Budd
Lol, you make yourself sound like some kind of new media hair dresser.
Well, I *did* give her the Medusa hair look ;)
I'll need to add wash, rinse and perm under my list of services...
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
From: Patrick Griffiths
[...]
@media 2005: Web Standards Accessibility is coming...
Excellent. I'm trying to see if I can make it down to London for this one.
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
From: Andy Budd
[...]
What I'm saying is that tables are meant to display tabular data
however a form is an input mechanism, not data itself. Thus in my
opinion it would be incorrect to use a table to layout a form.
Yup, that's how I've usually looked at it as well.
allowing people to
From: JohnyB
[...]
Actually... Why the hell do we need to do this? :( Screen
readers should
only stick with the aural styles and not the screen ones (not
ignoring
elements, that are not to be displayed) so only display: none
in screen
style would do the work :'( ...
Just like with
Not sure how good the resources are, but I thought I'd
share this site I've recently stumbled across:
http://www.aspnetresources.com/
Emphasis is on ASP in relation to Web Standards.
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
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