Re: [WSG] Adobe Installation Nightm Mares
Hi Marvin, Two years ago I was using the subscription service for the CS packages, and it all went terribly wonky. So I rang the help line - hopeless - used the supplied assistance email address - also hopeless - and then read with amusement that Adobe were in the process of improving their customer service. I would hope by now they managed to do that! But at the time I got results via the Get Satisfaction site. Here's the Adobe link; http://getsatisfaction.com/adobe/topics Shortly after posting I got answers and problem solved. Not the same issue you've encountered, but Get Satisfaction works as a public forum and another user may have an answer for you. Good luck Marv! Cheers, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] which programming or web development tools which works well with jaws
Hey there Marvin, I understand software like JAWS and NVDA (http://www.nvda-project.org/) read out the entire screen activity of a PC (as opposed to FANGS which only reads inside Firefox and therefore only websites or at least browser based software) and as such like an inaccessible website that is not coded with screen readers (in this instance) in mind, then if JAWS or NVDA can't translate what's on the PC screen then the software is lacking. But I would of thought Windows with their own accessibility ambitions would by now of considered their development platforms, and for that matter Adobe as well. However I assume you wouldn't be asking this question if experience suggested otherwise! What I wonder though is do you really need these advanced software packages to do what you can achieve with a good text editor? And wouldn't a simpler tools be less likely to cause issues? Ian Lloyd in his Sitepoint Book Build your own web site the right way using HTML CSS recommends NoteTab (www.notetab.com) for Windows users. It has a free lite version. There appear to be a number of other free development tools online for Windows users, but by now were discussing the merits of software and not web standards :) My other suggestion would be to write to the guys behind NVDA (or join the forum). They are blind computer developers and likely have some experience that could assist you. Hope this is helpful somehow and congrats on the study decision, Cheers John Unsworth On 18 August 2011 15:52, Peter Mount i...@petermount.com wrote: You might want to look at Lynx as well. http://lynx.isc.org Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 i...@petermount.com http://www.petermount.com On 19/08/2011, at 7:53 AM, Marvin Hunkin startrekc...@gmail.com wrote: hi. well enrolling in a diploma in website development. and developing a website. now what web site development tools, and which programming tools which works best with Jaws? visual basic, visual web developer, c#, dream weaver, vs 2008, or 2010. which works best with jaws? marvin. ps: will take your more expertise in this area. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] major web site project
Hey there Marvin, When you first posted for suggestions for your site I did think that the subject of the blind computer user was apt, but I was reluctant to suggest it as you may of been reluctant to follow this path, concerned you may get pigeonholed. But as you have now indeed settled on the subject here is my suggestion. Rather than a portal for web designers et al to services, information etc. might I suggest an education site for non-web geeks. There maybe site like this that exist, but most of the stuff I know of is either technical or hosted on web industry sites. Of course if I view information on the subject within that context it's not surprising. Rather what I was thinking was, describing and drawing upon your experience creating a site that illustrates to the lay person just what the experience of browsing the web without perfect eyesight is like. Now I accept that it's not likely the lay person will intentionally look for such a site or even stumble across it generally browsing. But for those of us in the WSG group trying to explain and convince website owners the merit of incorporating accessibility features and rather than referring to and citing those previously mentioned sites, to refer to a site that they understand is describing real experience... Such a site I would suggest could include recordings of sample passages read by your Windows Eyes software, and even a comparison of site; the good and the bad. One idea that came to mind might be to have a page that is completely dark, but as the user mouses over a kind of peek-a-boo magnify glass reveals the text underneath, attempting to depict what it would be like having to 'discover' the page bit by bit as opposed to a visual glance. Hope that is the sort of thing you were looking for and all the very best with the project. Kind regards, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] major web site project
Sorry folks, quick correction here. Instead of 'education site for non-web geeks.' what I really meant was 'non-geek web users'. All the best, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] setting up visualf web developer with iis
Hey there Marvin, I'm sorry I can't help you at all with this, but if you will excuse me for the benefit of other users who may not of had the opportunity to 'meet' you in the WSG list... Just a quick reminder or heads up to members on the WSG list, Marvin is a young blind developer who as his email address might suggest is 'boldly going where others have not been' (apologies Marvin if I've mucked up the phrase, not quite the Star Trek boffin I gather you are :-) ) So whilst his question has nothing to do with the usual mailing list information, Marvin on these occasions has come to us as a sympathetic forum as presumably finding the information he needs might not of been as accessible as some of us take for granted. Marvin, if I've overstepped the line (or indeed anyone else on the list) one word and I'll pull my head in, but some past questions from Marvin have had to have this information explained. Cheers WSG'ers John Unsworth *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Horizontal Menu Bar Help Needed
Hi Emily, Firstly the problem you describe might be your browser. I'm using Safari on a Mac and the desired effect appears to occur, whether I use the back button or click Home again. So this might be the reason your not getting the expected effect. Secondly, the standards group I would imagine are collectively having kittens seeing all that table based layout rendered by Dreamweaver. Whilst there is often some debate, on the whole most people employ a list for navigation rather than a table, however I'm assuming the whole page is a table layout and thus whilst I would encourage you to reconsider, I'm not going to go into an entire rewrite. I would then suggest to you it's time to learn some CSS. Your Dreamweaver behaviours are embedded Javascript(s), added to which all your presentation information, such as width and height are inline to boot. What you want to strive for is plain simple HTML, with externally linked CSS and JS files. This approach is sometimes referred to as 'three layers'. That being Content (HTML), Presentation (CSS) and finally Behaviours (Javascript). Presuming this is not just a practice piece of work and the error your getting is just within your browser, I don't think there is a simple bit of 'code' that will fix this. Moving forward I can only suggest you change your methods in line with the sentiments of the standards group. Personally if your starting out I can't recommend Ian Lloyd's 'Build your website the right way, using HTML and CSS' from Sitepoint, and 'HTML Dog, The best-practice guide to XHTML CSS' by Patrick Griffiths enough. All the best, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Site for Vision Impaired
Hi Daniel, It maybe has incorrectly become a by-word for accessibility, but web standards are certainly your first step to provide sites for vision or indeed other disability needs. I was wondering if any of you have done any work on sites for the visually impaired? I have never specifically done a site for an audience explicitly identified as visually impaired, I've has presumed that users of any site maybe impaired and worked from that premise. What are the considerations I need to take into account with a project like this? eg ability to change contrast, text size etc? Are there any good resources or advice you could share with me? It is a considerable subject area and there are a vast array of tools and resources, but here are a few modest suggestions. The good people of Think Vitamin have made available all their tutorial videos for accessibility for free; http://membership.thinkvitamin.com/library/accessibility/?cid=106 Vision Australia has a number of very good resources and are focused on vision issues; http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/info.aspx?page=740 Formerly of Vision Australia was a gentleman called Steve Faulkner, he created the Web Accessibility Toolbar, and is now in the USA with the Paciello Group and they to have a number of useful tools and resources; http://www.paciellogroup.com/index.php It would be greatly appreciated. The only other consideration I would encourage you to think about is the content. If your clients are visually impaired then whilst a pleasing design a good thing, not at the expense of the information your audience is after. Hope this is helpful, Cheers, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] HELP WITH SETTING UP A CMS PROJECT
You may want to use use Wordpress for a start but consider TYPO3 for a professional development. Sunday John Solutions Provider Phone: 234 802 322 8712, 234 7029513356 Website: www.raphsonsolutions.com Email: sun...@raphsonsolutions.com --- @ WiseStamp Signaturehttp://my.wisestamp.com/link?u=wcxmvmfngt9pqscnsite=www.wisestamp.com/email-install. Get it nowhttp://my.wisestamp.com/link?u=wcxmvmfngt9pqscnsite=www.wisestamp.com/email-install On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 5:01 PM, charit...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Marvin, If you are new to use any CMS me too suggest you start with Wordpress. Charith. Sent via BlackBerry® from Dialog -- *From: * Marcos Paulo Machado marcosp...@gmail.com *Sender: * li...@webstandardsgroup.org *Date: *Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:47:34 -0300 *To: *wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *ReplyTo: * wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject: *Re: [WSG] HELP WITH SETTING UP A CMS PROJECT Marvin, I suggest you study more before choose any CMS to your project and verify wich better fit in your requirements. I use the three CMS's, and I prefer the Wordpress, because is more simple to configure and install. from my android Em 15/09/2010 12:25, David Laakso da...@chelseacreekstudio.com escreveu: On 9/15/10 8:42 AM, Marvin Hunkin wrote: THINKING ABOUT REWRITING MY STAR TREK SITE AND THINKING ABOUT USING A CMS. MARVIN. That's a big order, Marvin. I am a designer rather than a developer but would think you may want to keep things very simple. This is an open-source XML based lite CMS. http://get-simple.info/start/ http://get-simple.info/start/ It may more than meet your need and will probably be a lot less frustrating in the long run... Best, ~d -- :: desktop and mobile ::http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://websta... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Sunday John Solutions Provider Phone: 234 802 322 8712, 234 7029513356 Website: www.raphsonsolutions.com Email: sun...@raphsonsolutions.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Hello I am on holiday until Monday 9th August. If you need to speak to someone in the team before then please contact Richard Garbutt for operational issues and Dr Andy Jupe for financial or contractual matters. Best wishes John Cowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Hello I am on holiday until Monday 9th August. If you need to speak to someone in the team before then please contact Richard Garbutt for operational issues and Dr Andy Jupe for financial or contractual matters. Best wishes John Cowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Hello I am on holiday until Monday 9th August. If you need to speak to someone in the team before then please contact Richard Garbutt for operational issues and Dr Andy Jupe for financial or contractual matters. Best wishes John Cowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Hello I am on holiday until Monday 9th August. If you need to speak to someone in the team before then please contact Richard Garbutt for operational issues and Dr Andy Jupe for financial or contractual matters. Best wishes John Cowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Hello I am on holiday until Monday 9th August. If you need to speak to someone in the team before then please contact Richard Garbutt for operational issues and Dr Andy Jupe for financial or contractual matters. Best wishes John Cowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Hello I am on holiday until Monday 9th August. If you need to speak to someone in the team before then please contact Richard Garbutt for operational issues and Dr Andy Jupe for financial or contractual matters. Best wishes John Cowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] [Job] Senior Freelance Web Designer | Melbourne
This is getting a bit out of hand people! But to bring the notion of standards back into the fray, I've met the people at 10Collective and if there was an understanding of good standards in the recruitment industry these people would be WCAG 2 compliant. Oh, and it is Julien, not Julia. Meanwhile, let's stop this thread hey? John Unsworth. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: Using CSS instead of JS for accessibility (was Re: [WSG] CSS Expandable Menu)
I find it's best to do your homework, and shop around. There are so many options and paths you can go down, and with things changing rapidly so often, something that works today, may not work so well tomorrow. Sitepoint is a good start, they publish a good book By Rachel Andrews, CSS Anthology, currently 3rd edition. She recommends a Javascript version for accessibility. I would agree. Best of luck on your journey . . . John -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: Tuesday, 29 June 2010 8:22 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: Using CSS instead of JS for accessibility (was Re: [WSG] CSS Expandable Menu) On 29 Jun 2010, at 11:04, de...@littlegent.com wrote: I'd recommend using one from http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menus/ The trick is deciding which one to use, really. =) Having taken a quick look, I'd run a mile from them. The first one I looked at was missing and pointed me somewhere else, which assured me that I've love a newer version and directed me to http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menus/final_drop.html It was wrong, I don't love it. It seems to have all the problems I described earlier (although it does, at least, bother to have basic links at the top (I wonder how many people bother to put something useful that that can substitute for the menu on those pages...) lia href=../menu/index.htmlDEMOS!--[if gte IE 7]!--/a!--![endif]-- !--[if lte IE 6]tabletrtd![endif]-- This hideous excuse for markup can't be worth removing the dependancy on JS, can it? (Especially since you need to implement the same fallbacks anyway!) -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Video Accessibility Help
Hi Michael, Your first port of call might be the WCAG2 guidelines, found here; http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/#media-equiv I also did a quick search for accessible online video best practice and this link to a PDF from the US Department of Health and Human Services exactly on the topic of Online Viral Video Requirements and Best Practices might be useful to you. It is dated Jan 2010 and covers the departments use of YouTube (and other video providers) and importantly Section 508 compliance. A good deal of the document regards brand guidelines as much as technical requirements, but in that regards questions about dimension and file size and type might be useful knowledge. This was the PDF link; www.cdc.gov/socialmedia/Tools/guidelines/pdf/onlinevideo.pdf Accessibility advocate Joe Clark I recall became very interested in the question and quality of captioned video. From my search above this resource of links from the Victorian Government in Australia might also be useful; http://www.egov.vic.gov.au/website-practice/online-video-content.html I'm not that knowledgeable about Flash, but to your questions I recall seeing a presentation from Adobe regards CS4 and that their Audio program, whose name escapes me, could extract Caption text and that in turn that file could be brought into Flash. However I thought it was an XML file. I also understood that using ActionScript you could program the import of the XML file, but the last time I used Flash was at school and it was Flash8 and given the presentation I mentioned it might be a tool built in?? Of course how this would be handled in HTML5 I'm less clear on:) Didn't really answer your questions directly, but I hope some of this is useful. Cheers, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Yes/No structure?
Hi Lucien, The first thing that occurs to me regarding the semantics of the action is what is the Yes/No proposition in regards to, and that this might provide a clearer notion as to what to do. By this what I mean is, in the first instance so far as semantic mark up is concerned it would appear that a radio button is exactly what you would use. Here it is a case of either on or off. Yes or no. However the first thing I thought of, and I suppose this is in more regards a UI/UX consideration is the design pattern we see with webmail clients and the Remember me check box. So returning to the first point, are you simply asking for a Yes/No action or like the Remember me function a call to action with an Option Yes or Option No result? In which case your question might be rephrased by improving the microcopy of your markup. Instead of Do you..? the semantics are improved by fixing the proposition, ie; Remember me for 2 weeks - tick on = Yes, un-ticked = No, or another example, rather than Would you like to receive our email newsletter? radio buttons Yes/No, checkbox pre-selected followed by Uncheck if you would not like to receive our email newsletter. In addition to my thoughts I had a look into the Robert Hoekman Jr book Designing the Obvious and in Chapter 16 about Simplifying Long Forms he cites an example that begins with a series of Yes/No propositions that given further consideration can be better addressed by better directed questions and ultimately checkboxes. If you have a Safari Books Online account you can access this book, or at the least here is a link to his presentation at Web Directions in 2008; http://www.webdirections.org/resources/robert-hoekman-jr/ which contains links to his book on Amazon and an introduction to his approach. But I'll try and quickly summarise it for you. Original form starts - Do you...have any Group Medical, Dental or Vision coverage..with Acme Insurance = Radio Button Yes/No. Second iteration - Do you...have any Group Medical, Dental or Vision coverage..with Acme Insurance = Radio Button Yes, then checkbox's for Medical, Dental, Vision - Radio Button No. Third iteration - Do you...have any Group Medical, Dental or Vision coverage..with Acme Insurance = checkbox's for Medical, Dental, Vision - implied is if you don't check any, you would of selected No. So to sum up, before it's a question of which is the best markup to use, what is the actual end result of this action and can it be handled a better way? Cheers, John Unsworth On 4 June 2010 12:29, nedlud ned...@gmail.com wrote: I have a web form I'm building and there is a simple yes/no question in it. I got to wondering what the best semantic mark up for this is? Does anyone have any good UI/UX suggestions? My three ideas were... Two radio buttons for yes and no... pDo you...?/p label for=ans-yesYes/labelinput type=radio name=ans id=ans-yes label for=ans-noNo/labelinput type=radio name=ans id=ans-no A single check box. A tick implies a yes answer while no tick implies no... pDo you...?/p input type=checkbox name=ans id=ans Or a selection list with a yes and a no answer... pDo you...?/p select name=ans id=ans option value=yesYes/option option value=noNo/option /select Which is the preferred way? Or can you suggest a better way? Lucien. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Yes/No structure?
Lucien, Interestingly the Robert Hoekman Jr example I cited started originally as a paper form. In his write up when the form was first put up online before he came along it ran to page after page, resulting in people never completing it! In your example the first thing that strikes me, but this could be a can of worms (based on your observation about asking a non-English speaker to advise What language? when they might not be able to understand even that) is either links in the available languages to the same form in those languages, or at least to a page in the selected language with information about what to do next - even though that might mean calling a help line instead, or lastly the form begins with say language Flag Icons and if someone chooses anything other than English off to the alternate page or form. That action becomes your Yes or No scenario. There was a visitor from the W3C who spoke to the WSG in Melbourne some time ago now called Richard Ishida who is all about internationalisation on the web. More links; http://rishida.net/ Cheers, John Unsworth On 4 June 2010 14:41, nedlud ned...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm. I hadn't considered the wording of the actual question to be so important. But I can sure see your point. The full questions in the form is Do you require an interpreter? This is followed by: If so, what language? I am porting a paper based for onto the web, and the paper based version has explicit check boxes for yes and no. But it occurred to me that on the web, I could reduce the two check boxes down to one. Tick the box if you require an interpreter. Then dynamically insert the what language question if they answer yes. (Yes, an obvious problem with all this is that the form is all written in English. I guess the client is assuming an English speaker is helping the Non-English speaker with the form). I often look for the simplest way to represent thing, an in this case, a single check box can easily represent both the yes and no states (checked or not checked). But is this the best UX? Are people more comfortable with explicit yes/no choices? Even when it might be more verbose than absolutely necessary? Lucien. On 4 June 2010 13:29, John Unsworth john.unswo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Lucien, The first thing that occurs to me regarding the semantics of the action is what is the Yes/No proposition in regards to, and that this might provide a clearer notion as to what to do. By this what I mean is, in the first instance so far as semantic mark up is concerned it would appear that a radio button is exactly what you would use. Here it is a case of either on or off. Yes or no. However the first thing I thought of, and I suppose this is in more regards a UI/UX consideration is the design pattern we see with webmail clients and the Remember me check box. So returning to the first point, are you simply asking for a Yes/No action or like the Remember me function a call to action with an Option Yes or Option No result? In which case your question might be rephrased by improving the microcopy of your markup. Instead of Do you..? the semantics are improved by fixing the proposition, ie; Remember me for 2 weeks - tick on = Yes, un-ticked = No, or another example, rather than Would you like to receive our email newsletter? radio buttons Yes/No, checkbox pre-selected followed by Uncheck if you would not like to receive our email newsletter. In addition to my thoughts I had a look into the Robert Hoekman Jr book Designing the Obvious and in Chapter 16 about Simplifying Long Forms he cites an example that begins with a series of Yes/No propositions that given further consideration can be better addressed by better directed questions and ultimately checkboxes. If you have a Safari Books Online account you can access this book, or at the least here is a link to his presentation at Web Directions in 2008; http://www.webdirections.org/resources/robert-hoekman-jr/ which contains links to his book on Amazon and an introduction to his approach. But I'll try and quickly summarise it for you. Original form starts - Do you...have any Group Medical, Dental or Vision coverage..with Acme Insurance = Radio Button Yes/No. Second iteration - Do you...have any Group Medical, Dental or Vision coverage..with Acme Insurance = Radio Button Yes, then checkbox's for Medical, Dental, Vision - Radio Button No. Third iteration - Do you...have any Group Medical, Dental or Vision coverage..with Acme Insurance = checkbox's for Medical, Dental, Vision - implied is if you don't check any, you would of selected No. So to sum up, before it's a question of which is the best markup to use, what is the actual end result of this action and can it be handled a better way? Cheers, John Unsworth On 4 June 2010 12:29, nedlud ned...@gmail.com wrote: I have a web form I'm building and there is a simple yes/no question in it. I got to wondering what the best
[WSG] Monospace font sizing
Hi all, I've no doubt some of you know this, and some of you have read the article, however in a turn of happy coincidence for myself as I was trying to puzzle out the answer as to why my Monospace font heading in Safari was not behaving as I thought it should, I happened to have Mr Eric Meyers blog open in another browser; http://meyerweb.com and therein was the answer; http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2010/02/12/fixed-monospace-sizing To quickly summarise the article, firstly I didn't actually know (or hadn't remembered) that whilst browsers default font size to 16px, monospace fonts are sized at 13px. Additionally, sized in em's not all browsers will transfer a monospace styled element it's parent font size, and finally even after specifying the font family Safari still won't confer the desired sizing. As it transpires the work around is in the font-stack. Oddly by setting the font-stack with 'serif' (or even sans-serif I presume) as the final font family Safari finally plays ball, eg; (font-family: Corier Neu, monospace, serif; font-size: 1em;) - snippet taken from Mr Meyers' article - http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2010/02/12/fixed-monospace-sizing/ As this nearly became a question to the group and only lucky chance provided the answer in minutes, and the information was previously unknown to me, I thought I'd share especially to those creating novel font stacks. Cheers, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] NVDA-screen reader software for windows
Hello all, Last night on the TV here in Australia, on the national broadcaster the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation), on a program called The New Inventors took time out from their usual competition style format to highlight inventions concerned with Access and Ability. Included amongst the inventions was Screen Reader software for Windows, that was not only programmed by two blind computer users, is licensed open source and thus freely available. It is called NVDA. Personally I hadn't heard of this software before, so please excuse me if this is old to some of you, but in general I thought this maybe of interest to the group. Amongst it's many features highlighted by the program was it's portability - a user is able to load the software onto a USB stick to take to any other computer, and an intriguing audio implementation to signify the cursors position on the page - high pitches for top of the page, descending to lower pitches at the bottom of the page, and stereo panning to indicate left and right of the screen. The ABC page for this show is at this link; http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/specials/ The program was titled Access and Ability and there appear to be video of the segments, and I assume these are internationally available. The home page for the NVDA software where it can be downloaded is; http://www.nvda-project.org/ And the parent site for this project is at; http://www.nvaccess.org/ I hope this will be of interest to the group, and I apologise in advance if people think otherwise. Cheers, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] character codes and accessibility
Hi Luc, I might suggest that 'double right arrow' is purely presentational and not 'semantically' relevant, so it's not such a good idea to muddy up the HTML with extraneous code. If you want to avoid using a background image you could write your CSS in a 'progressive enhancement' fashion by using the :after property on the list items. Of course browsers that don't understand that will not display the arrows. As regards the question what does a screen reader do? I'm afraid I've no idea. I think this is best served with the image. One image in the CSS as opposed to multiple character codes in the HTML. Regards, John Unsworth 2009/11/15 Luc l...@dzinelabs.com: Good evening list, When you use a character code, e.g. #x00BB; as a list marker (hardcoded in the li), how is that interpreted by a speech browser? Does the user hear those characters as they appear or are they converted into 'double right arrow'? Might be a stupid question but it would prevent using background images -- Regards, Luc _ Using the best e-mail client: The Bat! version 4.2.6 with Windows XP (build 2600), version 5.1 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera. Pussy Galore: My name is Pussy Galore. - James Bond: I must be dreaming. - Bond meets Pussy Galore - Goldfinger (film 1964) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
I am on leave until 23 October 2009. In my absence please direct all enquiries to: Michael Theophilou: Acting IS MAnager Business Systems michael.theophi...@wesleymission.org.au ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] using images for my website and accessibility
Hi Marvin, Um, sorry but I'm a bit confused. Have you already found these images and now you need to contact the owner, or are you looking for images of fruit and vegetables that you can use legally? If what your saying is that you've got these images, but don't know where they are from, and your searching for banana.jpg - well the mind boggles! I would assume you'd find loads and then it's a bit like a pin in a haystack! Let alone trying to find img_0537.jpg? I would suggest you find some images on Flickr and set your search options for open Creative Commons licensed images. You set your options in the Advanced Search panel; for example http://www.flickr.com/search/advanced/?q=mushroom I appreciate with your being blind you will be heavily reliant on the alt attribute, or the photo meta tags, but at least the images have been released for legal use. I've usually been fortunate to either be able to create my own images, or have them supplied to me and then proceeded with the understanding that the client has already cleared there use. Thus far no problems. Hope this might help. John Unsworth. 2009/7/14 Marvin Hunkin startrekc...@gmail.com: hi. tried looking for these images for a web project. and needs the url, so i can contact the owner to get permission to use these images. will paste the names below. tried looking on google, altavista, yahoo, etc. but no luck. cheers Marvin. ps:have these images on my hard disk, but need to get permission to use these. the images i am looking for are: banana.jpg cherry.jpg image002.gifimage002.gif img_0537.jpg logo_01.gif mango.png Mushrooms.jpg pineapple.jpg rockmelon_large.jpg E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com Msn: startrekc...@msn.com Skype: startrekcafe Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Website Creation Documentation Standards
Hi Lorrie, When I read your email, it seemed to me you were referring to what I've read in web design books called 'deliverables'. A concept I think inherited from print and graphic design. For instance I recently bought a copy of Elliot Jay Stocks Sexy Web Design from Sitepoint ( http://www.sitepoint.com/books/ ) and last chapter speaks of this. However, beyond being called a style guide, I don't discern a common set of rules such that there exists software to assist you explicitly with a style guide. Another Sitepoint book from a few years back by Shirley Kaiser Deliver First Class Web Sites ( http://www.sitepoint.com/books/checklists1/?SID=3598de07047196325426cba641ee236c ) in the third chapter refers to a technique called content inventory which whilst different to a style guide, could class as a handover document. She refers to an excellent article by Jeffrey Veen on the subject which might assist - http://www.adaptivepath.com/ideas/essays/archives/40.php Finally in somewhat the same vein as Franks answer and using a similar technique, a presentation from a Natalie Downe of Clearleft in England on Maintainable CSS. At the end of the presentation she appears to create a HTML document that allows any future front end developer to quickly understand the styles and patterns in a technical sense. So whilst useful for a developer, probably of little consequence to a website owner. See the presentation here - http://natbat.net/ In the end, presuming I was in the ball park when I assumed you meant deliverables, as best as I can tell there is only techniques that work for you, rather than a standard such that the W3C would endorse. Hope some of this is helpful. John Unsworth List, I am a web designer as a hobby and have run into a situation where I am not sure where to search. Does a standard exist for the creation of web site creation documentation? By this I mean documentation that would/might be turned over to the end user: 1. to allow the end user to mange the site himself 2. to document the project and for future reference Having created a few sites I have been trying on my own to determine what information should be documented and in what format and by what specs. I hope this makes sense. If they do exist, would someone point me to them and some examples as well as any software, open source if possible, that exists. If not, are there any industry general practices that I can read? One last question, if such standard exist are they working with the W3C community and where might that info be, please? Lorrie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] IE and the button element
Thanks for all the discussion so far. It seems I'll have to re-code. I will definitely not be using Javascript. It seems entirely logical to me that there should be such a thing as a button, which can exist outside a form, which has an HREF attribute or can be wrapped in an anchor. But if there isn't, I guess I have to accept that. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] IE and the button element
Advantages of using buttons: 1) Button elements don't need styling, they take their styling from the user's operating system, which they are, I assume, familiar and comfortable with. I won't be reinventing the wheel. 2) Anchor elements don't have a built-in disabled mode, buttons do, and again the styling comes directly from the OS and the user is familiar with it. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Chris F.A. Johnson Sent: Tuesday, 24 February 2009 9:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] IE and the button element On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, John Horner wrote: Thanks for all the discussion so far. It seems I'll have to re-code. I will definitely not be using Javascript. It seems entirely logical to me that there should be such a thing as a button, which can exist outside a form, which has an HREF attribute or can be wrapped in an anchor. Why? All you need do is style the anchor element. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com = Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] IE and the button element
I adopted the use of the button element in an application I'm working on, used like this: a href=foo.htmlbuttonfoo/button/a one main reason I liked buttons is that they can be disabled with an attribute, which was useful for things like keeping a next button everywhere, so that the layout was consistent, but disabling it when there was no next page to go to. Also I could build up the right URLs (complex ones using query strings) which populate the HREFs on the server side and have a click which just followed that link rather than submitting a form, which would mean using a number of hidden fields and branching based on the button name. This is valid HTML, though it might be an unorthodox approach, and it worked well until I tested the code in IE. In IE6 it just plain doesn't work, the buttons don't respond to clicks. Unless they're set to disabled in which case they *do* work. Any ideas or workarounds? Or am I just going to have to re-code everything? Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Re: Html markup suggestions
OK, I'll bite, what makes you say that there are no suitable microformats? Where did you look? -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Porkandpaws Sent: Wednesday, 11 February 2009 8:26 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Re: Html markup suggestions Hi All I am looking to mark up the following information relating to books Book title Author Cover image ISBN I would like to do this in the most semantic rich way that potentially could be programatically extracted There are no existing microformats suitable for this and I do not know of any drafts. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
Just want to put in a plug for Radio National's coverage of this topic so far: The Media Report: http://abc.net.au/rn/mediareport/stories/2008/2405376.htm Australia Talks: http://abc.net.au/rn/australiatalks/stories/2008/2419136.htm Disclosure, RN is where I work. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: Monday, 1 December 2008 1:43 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia Don't ascribe to malice that which can be more easily explained by mistake. I'll take ill-informed cock-up over conspiracy any day, as I don't believe Australian politicians have the nous to manage a grand conspiracy. yeah a mix of very noisy religious extremist lobby groups and influential people with vested interests and politicians in portfolios they have little understanding of leading to ill-informed cock-ups seems much more likely than any kind of centrally-planned conspiracy. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] URL length best practices
Just a quick note that if you're going to shorten Do collaborative online groups need to be successful to make a URL, it would be better, from the SEO viewpoint, to cut out the common words, do, need, to etc. So, your URL would be collaborative-online-groups-successful.html not do-collaborative-online-groups-need-to.html the former one would get you better weighting with Google, etc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Budnikas Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 4:22 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] URL length best practices Wondering if people have insights into the length of a url for an article, and whether or not it is recommended to complete the name of an article in the url. For instance: http://egovau.blogspot.com/2008/10/do-collaborative-online-groups-need-t o.html The name of this article is Do collaborative online groups need to be successful. The url above strips out be-successful. This may be the part of Blogger, or the author, but I've seen it in other instances with different Content Management systems as well. I personally would have added the additional words. Thoughts? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility Transcripts for Audio and Video
Hi Jennie, Granted it was at the product launch of CS4 for Adobe, but one of the items they promoted was a feature in their sound program Soundbooth that did just this. It certainly appeared convincing, but as I say, it was a promotion night! There didn't seem to be any suggestion that it couldn't handle multiple voices, but then again, they didn't explicitly say that it could. As a tool, it might provide some heavy lifting when doing it the old fashioned way and allow you to tidy up the results. Also as I understood it, this feature previously existed elsewhere, and that Adobe had aquired it. Later I spoke with a guy who worked for the Australian Broadcasting Service, and he implied that the method you described, the old fashioned way, was previously all they had. For video work I might suggest you might find good info at Creative Cow; http://forums.creativecow.net/ or even the Adobe website. Not surprisingly a quick google search provides some info, and this link looked informed. http://www.jeroenwijering.com/?item=Making_Video_Accessible Not exactly your question answered, but hope it might of helped. Cheers, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Question about presenting numeric percentages and accessibility.
Hi all, Just a quick question. I'm writing up a website for a simple brochure site, and the copy I'm provided with refers to something 1/3 of total or colour 2/3 of natural and so on. And it just occured to me, would Number Slash Number (ie; 1/2) cause any issue in regards accessibility, be it screen readers or poor reading or math skills (the correct term for this alludes me for the moment, I'm thinking dyslexia, but not sure that correctly accounts for all potential users). As such I wondered if the abbr tag might be appropriate, or if anyone has a better, more suitable sugestion? Many thanks, John Unsworth. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Re: .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict
Hi, I've been working with .Net since the very early days, and yes it does have it's frustrations initially to get sites to validate, however there is no reason why it can't be done. With .Net 1.1 we wrote a PageFiltering module which did a small amount of manipulation to the generated HTML to make it validate, however the class is no more than about 100 lines long. The only control we had to fix was the RadioButton, so that it could handle the group attribute. In regards to Visual Studio changing the markup. Firstly you can change your VS.Net preferences to stop capitalisation etc, also I'd recommend you never switch Design mode, you really should never need to anyway. Examples that do validate can be found at http://www.sjplaw.co.uk [1]and http://www.white-agency.co.uk [2] . Please bear in mind these is a content managed site, so the copywriters may have stopped some of the pages validating. Another example site that validates to XHTML 1.1 - http://www.eastyorkshireclassic.co.uk/nationals [3] As a development studio we have recently switched to the Castle MonoRail Framework, so we no longer have any issues at all making pages validate. To be honest WebForms are a poor technology and any self respecting web developer should be using the available MVC frameworks. You have to remember that WebForms were created for VB developers who were used to drag and drop GUI building and don't care about web standards, let alone really understand what it means. (I may be generalising here a bit, but I'm right in most cases). John Polling Senior Web Developer White Agency Links: -- [1] http://www.sjplaw.co.uk/ [2] http://www.white-agency.co.uk/ [3] http://www.eastyorkshireclassic.co.uk/nationals *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Incorporating Terms and Cons in signup page
Hi WSG, I'm wondering about the best method to incorporate in a signup form a Terms and Conditions agreement, which being so long will be bought to the page externally. Or if it's thought best, maybe not! On a previous occasion I went forward using the object tag. The advantage to my mind is that, my document (that may change in future) is separate to the form and for those who don't have a browser capable of using the object tag, can see alternative text to link to the separately hosted TC page. But it's been put to me at work, there might be a way to house the document in a div, give the div a fixed size and make it scrollable. Alternatively I could use a textarea element, although I'm given to understand it would need to be outside the form so as not include it in the 'Signup' event when the submit button is clicked. However to satisfy the designer, who follows that the convention is that the form is visually seen before the last submit button, I'd use CSS to position it - but that doesn't sound very semantic to me? Putting it on another page, that you would link to, read, then return to the form to agree to has been rejected for the sanctity of the concept of a single page signup document. I hope I've been clear, and I guess I'm interested in anything similar to this in best practice, accessibility and standards. Cheers for just being there folks, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Position and peace of mind
Hello WSG'ers, I'm experiencing some frustrations with a current project and could use some experienced opinions. Warning though, I might get a bit wordy as it's going to be a multi-part question, as I'd like feedback about my chosen process. Also I would class myself advanced beginner, as I only been in web dev for about a year. OK, it's a new homepage for my employer. It's basically a series of rectangular div's 980px wide (wrapper is 1000px with 10px padding right and left) but varying heights, down the page, from top to bottom appears as; 1. Header 2. Navigation 3. Banner Photo 4. Five even sized boxes with current product promotions floated in their div left to appear horizontal across page 5. Two (2/3 page and 1/3 page) boxes for general introduction and client login (again horizontal) 6. Three even boxes for everyday products and customer contact (ditto the horizontal) 7. and final footer with copyright notice and repeated links My problem has arisen because I decided that I should write the markup so that steps 4 and 5 occur the other way around. So as a percieved accessibility benefit (even though I've included a 'skip to content' link at the top of the page) a screen reader would not have to skip through the promotions first, but read the introduction content, then the products. Concurrent to this I've attempted to write the CSS up as an elastic layout in em's should a user need to resize the page. I've also used the Eric Meyer reset, and set body font size to 1em (16px) and line height to 1.3em. I broadly understand the in and out's of em's, but am novice at implementing it. The problem I initially encountered was that when I used relative positioning for steps 4 and 5, to visually re-position them the margins between 4,5 and 6 varied across browsers. I was able to live with that, but the graphic designer of the site couldn't. This variation in margins also occured when trying to evenly space the five boxes of step 4 across the page and achieve alignment left and right. I tried %'s instead of em's, and for testing purposes without changing the rest of the layout, used pixels, but it never quite went flush to the edges. Then I tried absolute positioning with all the div's below the banner photo, and at least on the mac, across Safari 2, FF3, Opera 9.5, and Camino 1.6.3 (the five boxes were not entirely solved, but the layout was evenly spaced) my problems appeared to be solved. But then I tried it on a PC with IE7 and steps 4 and 5 were just plain gone??? I've also encountered another quirk that just appear in Opera when I tried to use image replacement for some links as buttons, that's causing the page to scroll horizontally, but given our likely audience I think even the designer might be able to live with that. So my questions to the group are; Was the decision to write the markup in the order I did correct or pedantic? Because if I didn't then I wouldn't have the layout issues I'm having I'd guess. Was it a mistake to try and create an elastic layout in em's and expect the entire interface to expand? In this case might it be better to use pixel for width's but em's for font and % for height and allow the boxes to expand with the text? Or should I just stick to pixel's all round. Is there a 'golden rule' about repositioning sections of markup out of the order they're written, and why was there variation with the margins across apparently very well behaved browsers? Finally why did the absolute position boxes just vanish in the IE7? I realise this might be too vauge a question, but I'm not even quite sure what my search terms might be trying to find the answer to this via Google. Generally the whole IE thing I ignore until required. Wow! I didn't intend to take so long, but would appreciate feedback even if it's just on one point. Sincerly, John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Fwd: [WSG] Position and peace of mind
-- Forwarded message -- From: John Unsworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 4 Sep 2008 14:05 Subject: Re: [WSG] Position and peace of mind To: Kepler Gelotte [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 04/09/2008, Kepler Gelotte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John, It would really help when you have a specific issue like this to post a url where people could see your site. Most hosting companies allow you to create subdomains so you could put the web site on your host as http://problemsite.mydomain.com/ Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 Thanks for replying Kepler, I've arranged to put the two versions up for viewing. The relatively positioned div's is at; http://distributeit.com.au/wsg/relative-index.html and the absolutes are here; http://distributeit.com.au/wsg/absolute-index.html The issue with the More Info buttons in Opera disapears when I removed the absolute position call in the CSS...but so do the images. And I'd like to advise that the call in the head of the HTML for the CSS is taken from Jon Hicks' presentation A Day in Deployment, I thought it was a good method although I am aware that the Yahoo front end optimisation people advise that the @import rule is not perfect. For anyone not aware of the Jon Hicks presentation, you'll find it here; http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/design-to-deployment Many thanks John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] resetting input boxes
Was just walking back from work when it occurred to me I should of specified that I was referring to Safari 2.1, sadly I'm stuck on a Hackintosh so no opportunity to run Safari 3. John Unsworth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] resetting input boxes
Paul Bennett wrote: Hi Kevin, It's not clear what you're trying to achieve. Can you give us some more information? Paul Christian Snodgrass wrote: I think he's essentially talking about a CSS reset file, specific to input, to neutralize all of the browser differences. I'm not sure of the specific elements, but just about any CSS reset should handle it. This is the one I prefer: http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/01/reset-reloaded/ Yahoo also has it's own, but it's a lot bigger and I think somewhat of an overkill. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 Having just been working on a series of pages consisting predominately of form elements, including inputs fields/boxes etc, and also using the Eric Meyer reset, it's my experience thus far that the reset does not neutralize all the browser differences. Opera for one seems to treat the sizing of the input boxes differently to Firefox and Safari. Added to that you can differing results depending on the system of measurement you use, ie: em's vs pixel vs percentage, although I'm inclined now to stick to percentage, ensuring the containing div or fieldset is sized consistently across browsers with either em's or px's. I'm not informed or smart enough to know exactly why this is, but suspect that as the browser is applying the OS input elements, in the process it is creating dimensions that go beyond padding and margin. Otherwise the reset would work? Slightly off topic, but still with the Eric Meyer reset, I found that when it declares a universal - background: transparent; - it disabled Safari and IE7 from applying a class to the tr in a table when I tried to Zebra stripe the table rows. I removed it (the univeral reset), and at least in Safari (not yet tested on IE7) it was fixed. Firefox, Opera and Camino all rendered the stripes as expected. Can anyone possibly explain that? Cheers people, John Unsworth. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Form (layout/accessibiity)
Shaun,
Somewhat new subscriber to the list, first time respondent...
It's a bit late of night, but if I read this right, if this section
(as it is a form, right?) is wrapped in a fieldset you can then hide
both labels and use legend to identify that's it's postcode. I'm
relatively new in this web malarky, but have been working on a lot of
form pages for a web app, and think fieldset legend are as good
as, and as easy to work with as div's. So if your fieldset carries
your id, then you can target your form elements. So to take your
snippet..
fieldset id=postcode
legendPostcode/legend
label for=PostCode1Postcode:/labelinput type=text
id=PostCode1 name=PostCode1 maxlength=4 /label
for=PostCode2
second part of postcode:/labelinput type=text id=PostCode2
name=PostCode2 maxlength=4 /
/fieldset
Then style the font etc of the legend, and hide the label the same
as your CSS, and size the input likewise.
Example - #postcode input { width: 2em;} #postcode label { position:
absolute; left: -px;}
Alternatively, if you can't or won't use fieldset then you might use
a Definition List. The term postcode is the dt, then just add input
elements in the dd and use title to explain the input use for screen
readers.
To all the more experienced members, please step forward to clarify or
correct my advice.
Your faithfully,
I've got no signature set up,
John Unsworth,
New Web Designing Bloke.
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 6:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have created a form which acts as a interface to a system outside of my
control. This takes UK postcode in two parts (postcode1 - the initial part
e.g. ng1 and postcode2 the later part e.g.7sw)
Is it appropriate that I have one label for two inputs or does anyone
know of a surefire way to hide second label I have tried this but it does not
seem cross browser
html snippet
label for=PostCode1Postcode:/labelinput type=text class=postcode
id=PostCode1 name=PostCode1 maxlength=4 /label for=PostCode2
class=hidesecond part of postcode:/labelinput class=postcode
type=text id=PostCode2 name=PostCode2 maxlength=4 /
css selectors relating to this
#su_housing input.postcode
{
width:2em;
}
#su_housing label.hide
{
position:absolute;
left:;
font-size:0;
color:#fff;
}
Would appreciate anyones thoughts help
Many Thanks
Shaun
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[WSG] Good HTML/CSS training in Sydney?
I'd be interested in hearing recommendations for good standards-based HTML and CSS training in the Sydney area. I'm looking at MaxDesign's website, of course, but not seeing specific dates for upcoming courses. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] html vs. html
Just to point out something that hasn't been mentioned as far as I can see -- of course, you can map file types to extensions on a webserver however you like. You could set .JPG to serve as HTML if you wanted. The original creators of Blogger, Pyra, used .pyra as their extension so I have no idea which language they were using. The problem comes when your users want to download the page for their own purposes. Their computer is not going to know what to do with a .pyra file. So, people may have arrived at a policy of web pages having 8.3-style names, just to make it easier for users to save files to their hard disks, back in the early days of Windows. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Korny Sietsma Sent: Saturday, 21 June 2008 5:20 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] html vs. html It's completely irrelevant these days, but long file names, i.e. anything with more than 8 characters in the name or 3 in the extension, are implemented on FAT file systems via a messy hack. The 'real' file name is the short name (i.e. Progra~1) and the rest of the file name is stored in extra hidden directories, it's all very messy and inefficient. ISTR this came in with Windows 95, so if you want to use web servers that run under MS-DOS, you might have a problem :) - Korny (showing his age) On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Ian Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My memory is fading fast Joe, but as I recall our first windows based web server (from Bob Denny's book) fixed the 8.3 limitation. We did continue creating .htm for a while after that but only out of habit. I can't remember the exact date but I would quess that we have been largely free from that limitation for well over ten years. Regards Ian - Original Message - From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] html vs. html The question wasn't about keeping file extensions in URIs it was about what file extension the file should have, which I am sure you will agree is still required as the server needs to know if it is an html, php, css, js, etc file doesn't it. But I completely agree, my server can serve a file.php file from www.domain.com/file as long as don't stupidly name the file the same as a directory at the same level. I may be that _at one time_ the windows server needed a 8.3 filename convention but that went out the door ages ago didn't it? PS: the subject should really be htm vs html, no? or am I missing something? Joe On Jun 20, 2008, at 08:55, Martin Kliehm wrote: On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Enslin wrote: I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm pages where previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the support staff and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file extensions (or rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard) Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to actually point out where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be... I'd have to agree; I'm inclined to believe that .htm is a carryover from when Microsoft(TM) products (ie DOS) only supported file extensions up to 3 characters in length. If there is a W3C statement, I'd love to see it. Oh, there is. The W3C advises to avoid file extensions in URLs to keep future compliant. Cool URIs don't change, you know. ;) http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Kornelis Sietsma korny at my surname dot com kornys at gmail dot com on google chat -- kornys on skype I've never seen a man eat so many chicken wings *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[WSG] Background-position in percentage
I've just spent a bit of time looking at how background-position works when expressed as a percentage: background-position: 90%; and I'm wondering why it works the way it does. Here's the best way I can describe the effect of (90%, x-axis) positioning with percentages: to position the image such that the point 90% across the image is aligned with the point 90% across the element. There's something rather counter-intuitive about that (it's even hard to describe!), and I've tried to explain it in teaching people about CSS and found that people are rather baffled by it. Does anyone know why it was created that way, and/or can you tell me if there's some very useful thing this rule allows you to do? That is, as opposed to a simpler rule like image is offset that amount to the left which is what I assumed when I first came across it. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] need some help
Does the coder need to be in London? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2008 10:00 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] need some help Hi All London Standardistas! Hope this little job request is agreeable to the list. I need some quick template creation help (paid) for 2-3 days next week possibly. Anyone got some time available? You need to be a whizz at fully-compliant XHTML/CSS and modifying a basic template to several (6) different variations. My deadline got squeezed and I need my OOP coders concentrating on the back-end and interface functionality. == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Dreamweaver8
Please, please, please everyone. Discuss web standards on the web standards group mailing list, and my text/WYSIWY editor is better than yours on the HTML Editors mailing list... If there isn't one, feel free to set it up. thanks, Grumpy John. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Why is u deprecated?
Hi Kepler, In many ways, b has been deprecated in favour of strong and i in favour of em (emphasis). u (underline) has been deprecated because it shouldn't be part of structural markup, but instead part of styling, so it would be replaced by span class=underline/span or similar. The reason b (bold) and i italic haven't actually been deprecated is that the HTML working group were worried it would lead to the misuse of other presentational tags, indeed such as em and strong, which should be considered whenever you use these 'newer' tags! cheers, John Kepler Gelotte wrote: Hi, I am just curious if anyone can explain why the u tag has been deprecated while b and i are still allowed. Thanks in advance. Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Assuming it's only a soundtrack and doesn't require any controlling, ie: play, pause, volume, etc. then a tiny .swf containing the music track (again set to loop, without control) could sit fairly unobtrusive, and marked up, at the bottom of your HTML. However as has been pointed out, without that control, he could do his reputation more damage than good. A better approach if it were my client would be to persuade them that plugging music (oh so subjective!) into the site for some spurious benefit is better abandoned for a clean standards page. Especially for a nightclub, a good visual website will stay relevant much longer than a hot soundtrack. It's not an area I'm well informed in, but others might be able to answer this, but is it possible to pull in an API from say Last.fm and let users chose their own soundtrack? On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 1:04 PM, jenni provenzano-sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I realize this is wsg, but why not do the whole site in flash, how many pages could it be! or at least do the frameset banner in flash. - Original Message - From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 3:20 AM Subject: WSG Digest * WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST * From: John Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 03:26:32 +1100 Subject: Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction I'd use flash. http://www.gothamsounddesign.com/ is a fairly good example of an 'unobtrusive' flash player. On 18/03/2008, at 3:10 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: hi, Im doing a site for a nightclub. So im doing a hybrid. The owner has demanded a music track playing continuously. What would you lot do if you had to put in a continually playing music track? I mean the only solution that is a frameset right but i just want some feedback of the dangers of this. -thanks in advance kev *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** best wishes, John Hancock Identity [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +61 2 8012 2967 f: +61 2 9799 6135 * From: Faul, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:26:52 -0400 Subject: Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest I will be out of the office on Monday March 17. If you require immediate assistance, please contact Chris Wightman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and/or 613-580-2424 ext 25123. Thank you. This e-mail originates from the City of Ottawa e-mail system. Any distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than the intended recipient(s) is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me at the telephone number shown above or by return e-mail and delete this communication and any copy immediately. Thank you. Le présent courriel a été expédié par le système de courriels de la Ville d'Ottawa. Toute distribution, utilisation ou reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements qui s'y trouvent par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est interdite. Si vous avez reçu le message par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par courriel, puis supprimer sans délai la version originale de la communication ainsi que toutes ses copies. Je vous remercie de votre collaboration. * From: Frederick Matzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:36:59 -0600 Subject: Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction If you can't talk the guy out of it then try and get him to at least allow the USER to start the music. If not that then I would suggest teh next course is a flash player but at half volume and make SURE that the START and STOP button is easy to find. I wouldn't use a frameset for anything. On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 10:26 AM, John Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd use flash. http://www.gothamsounddesign.com/ is a fairly good example of an 'unobtrusive' flash player. On 18/03/2008, at 3:10 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: hi, Im doing a site for a nightclub. So im doing a hybrid. The owner has demanded a music track playing continuously. What would you lot do if you had to put in a continually playing music track? I mean the only solution that is a frameset right but i just want some feedback of the dangers of this. -thanks in advance kev *** List Guidelines: http
Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction
I'd use flash. http://www.gothamsounddesign.com/ is a fairly good example of an 'unobtrusive' flash player. On 18/03/2008, at 3:10 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: hi, Im doing a site for a nightclub. So im doing a hybrid. The owner has demanded a music track playing continuously. What would you lot do if you had to put in a continually playing music track? I mean the only solution that is a frameset right but i just want some feedback of the dangers of this. -thanks in advance kev *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** best wishes, John Hancock Identity [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +61 2 8012 2967 f: +61 2 9799 6135 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 8 and grey
CSS is a US-spec language. If we suddenly start seeing 'colour: #123456;' then I'll be delighted - but I don't think the CSS authors are so interested in global standards ;) On 18/03/2008, at 1:04 PM, Chris Broadfoot wrote: Keryx Web wrote: Quick question. I have not got IE 8 beta 1 myself... Does it understand grey, spelled with an e - as it should be ;-) Lars Gunther Probably not. grey isn't a css colour. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** best wishes, John Hancock Identity [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +61 2 8012 2967 f: +61 2 9799 6135 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] IE8 news - stats
Consider that a fairly significant proportion of IE6 users cannot upgrade as they're using illegal copies of Windows XP. One of my clients did a fairly large study (anonymous) where 18% of 10,000 users were using cracked copies of Windows - I'm just wondering how much that'd sway the stats. For myself, I'd be unwilling to support people who steal rather than go to linux-based operating systems. Unfortunately, it's impossible to tell the difference! John Hancock Identity -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot Sent: Sunday, 9 March 2008 7:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 news - stats Well, if you'd like some stats from a .au site with very much non-technical, typically Australian-sourced traffic: 1. Internet Explorer / Windows 44,549 80.32% 1. 7.0 23,965 53.77% 2. 6.0 20,507 46.01% 3. 5.5 47 0.11% 4. 5.0117 0.04% 5. 5.0 16 0.04% 6. 5.2311 0.02% 7. 4.5 3 0.01% 8. 4.0120.00% 9. 5.2220.00% 10. 4.0 10.00% 2. Firefox / Windows 6,581 11.86% 3. Safari / Macintosh 2,352 4.24% 4. Firefox / Macintosh 828 1.49% 5. Mozilla / Linux 623 1.12% 6. Opera / Windows 150 0.27% 7. Firefox / Linux 121 0.22% 8. Mozilla / Windows 48 0.09% 9. Konqueror / Linux 37 0.07% 10. Internet Explorer / Macintosh 24 0.04% So, 80% Windows IE, split between 7 6 - I too expect to see most of the IE7 users migrate to an IE8 Gold release quite quickly, but that IE6 will hang around for much longer. warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems Brisbane, Australia *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction and myths
Hi Michael, That seems incredibly arbitrary when a robots.txt is purely optional - especially as the default spider behavior is to index all unless told otherwise. So you're penalizing people by having your robot behave in the opposite manner? And regarding PICS labels, most people don't know how to set them or don't have the requisite server access. How do you justify these? Cheers, John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com Sent: Monday, 10 March 2008 12:52 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction and myths I didn't know robots text was important for accessibility, however I learned from the accessites team that it is. Tee, The reasons we (Accessites) look for a robots.txt file is because it keeps honest bots from wasting their time and your bandwidth indexing directories/files you don't want indexed. We don't look at this as part of a web accessibility requirement. Our focus is on quality sites for which accessibility must be an integral part. Thus, we like to see things like a robots.txt file, PICS label, semantics, good looks, and more, of course. Regarding a site map, that we like to see for accessibility and not for bots at all. A site map is important to accessibility as some user will seek out a site map right away to grasp a site's overview and offerings. For some users, this is the best way to begin the exploration of a site. In my opinion, html site maps don't have anything to do with indexing other than just being another indexable page. It is my understanding, though, that an XML site map can help indexing but being that I've never used one or looked into it much, I can neither confirm or deny this. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Respectfully, Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction
Hi Michael, I take the perspective that a site built to web standards provides a framework for content which doesn't have any 'points' deducted from it. SEO in my experience is divided up into the main sections 1) inbound links and references 2) linking structure 3) page build quality 4) content 1 and 4 are unfortunately, 'King' (we've all heard that content is king, but inbound links certainly count for as much on Google). If you imaging a point scale where the search engine gives points based on content, and then takes them away based on the problems or inadequacies with a website build (i.e. home page not linked to as /, no lang=en/fr/etc tag, links in tables instead of ul's or a separate div), you have the manner in which web standards affect SEO issues. As such, there should be no SEO issues in a standards- compliant website - think of google as a plain text reader where the content:code ratio should be as high as possible. Other issues include not using ?id as a query string as this is how google did it, so a lot fail to rank if you don't use ?pid/?cid etc, and suchlike, but I'd say these are more language-based or protocol based and that's a pretty small niche in web standards. I feel that more on the subject would take my response away from Web Standards, so feel free to contact me off-list if you want to discuss further. best wishes, John Hancock Identity [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +61 2 8012 2967 f: +61 2 9799 6135 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS review
Me, personally, I wouldn't use a CMS that produced mark-up like that. Especially not when I know there are others out there that will do a better job (haven't explored Powerfront too closely to find out whether it's possible to alter the output mark-up). I'd have to ask though: why are you looking at Powerfront if you've worked with people who produce better sites using other CMSs? On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:57:56 +1000, alysia hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello. I have just discovered this australian based company Powerfront. I am really interested in some feedback. I'm a graphic designer, and I have worked with developers that build wonderful standards compliant websites with a CMS. I have looked at the source code of Powerfront websites, which appears to have a lot of syling in the html pages, rather than in a CSS file. From a 'non programming' person, this doesn't look very standards compliant. My question is, Is it standards compliant? If not, does that matter? Can anyone fault these websites? I have the up most regard for the WSG, and all those in the industry creating conferences, speaking publicly, writing articles etc on making code better for all concerned, but leaving that aside, does anyone have any critisisms about this CMS (other than the fact that it might not be compliant?) Here is an example website which I think is pretty good http://www.goodshepvic.org.au/ Here is the company website http://www.powerfront.com/ Any Powerfront employees, I welcome your feedback too! thanks, alysia *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS review
Please consider that a cms is a tool too allow people to add there own content. So the inline styling may in fact be added by the end user. For the example site linked to - http://www.goodshepvic.org.au/ - I didn't even get as far down to what might've been user entered content. Incomplete doctype, tables-based layout, bloated CSS with class names that don't mean anything all included in the page instead of an external stylesheet - these are things that have got nothing to do with the content editors/creators. I also doubt it's a case of a poor template implementation on the part of this particular customer because the CMS vendor's website displays similar markup. -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Screen Standards - was alachu
Hi David, There are actually standard screen sizes, which is why screens like HP's 1280x768 14 screen and Apple's 15 screen were retired quietly. They were new and different, then different, then became non-standard when 14.1 and 15.4 devices preserved a 16:10 aspect ratio. The manufacturers of LCD (and CRT) panels have been sitting down and working out what sizes they should all work to, to make things easy, predominantly, for gaming and windows driver manufacturers. And they've been doing this for about 15 years or so - so there are standards. That there isn't a 'standard' screen size is agreed in terms of 'everyone uses a different screen', but that's why we all seem to design to the lowest (common) common denominator, whatever our definition of that is. In terms of internet browsing, many professionals have been using the HTC devices for a while, such as the Universal, TyTn etc. These typically have 320x240 (either aspect) or 640x480 screens and as such some websites really struggle - alistapart is a great example of one. Many seem to be of the opinion that these screen sizes don't matter at all in terms of design - my method is usually to build a /mobile site for mobile users. John. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Hucklesby Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 4:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Site review - alachua co library On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 03:42:07 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: On 2008/02/27 18:39 (GMT+1100) John Hancock apparently typed: Just a thought, but a moderately high resolution environment to me is a setup of over 3mpx. For instance, dual 20 TFTs, dual 19 CRT or single 30 etc. A high resolution environment for me is about 7.5mpx. While I'm aware that your mileage may vary, a 1680 x 1200 pixel screen size is certainly not a standard one! [...] Thus I'm really curious about your definition of a standard one! There is clearly no standard screen size or resolution, despite assumptions too often made by designers. Please consider that the web is no longer only available on PCs. I read recently that 30-40% of Internet traffic in Europe comes from mobile phones. There are hand-held devices, game boxes, and doubtless more to come as well. The advent of the iPhone in N. America is already changing Internet browsing habits over here. I agree with Felix that we should get away from the idea that CSS can deliver a better experience by significantly changing the text size. FWIW my 15 laptop display is 1400 x 1050 running at 120 DPI. With large fonts I find the defaults very comfortable. I use Opera as my default browser, so text delivered as 10 pixels is easily increased. Age seems relevant to some who discuss this issue, for some reason I can't fathom, so I'll mention that I am 72. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Site review - alachua co library
Hi Felix, Here's a screenshot of a typical moderately high resolution environment: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/SC/sc-alaclib1.jpg and the setup source: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/tmp/sc-alaclib1.html Just a thought, but a moderately high resolution environment to me is a setup of over 3mpx. For instance, dual 20 TFTs, dual 19 CRT or single 30 etc. A high resolution environment for me is about 7.5mpx. While I'm aware that your mileage may vary, a 1680 x 1200 pixel screen size is certainly not a standard one! Thus I'm really curious about your definition of a standard one! The Standard Panels Working Group (SPWG) isn't the fastest moving of organisations, admittedly, but you'll find that they're usually ratifying 16:10 aspect ratios as standard - something to consider when designing sites. Additionally, those of us with extremely large working areas should usually have a 17 TFT or lower to test on for 'the great unpixeled'. kind regards, John Hancock Identity [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +61 2 8012 0274 f: +61 2 9799 6135 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] books
And now you don't even need to buy Sitepoint reference material: http://reference.sitepoint.com/css On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:50:59 +1000, Paul McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would also reccomend the Sitepoint books. Work well as a reference when your working too, or just forgot something like i usually do :) Paul willdonovan wrote: I would also recommend the Sitepoint collection of books on javascript, CSS, SEO and many other titles. Particularly the 'Art Science' series and also the 'Anthology' series of books. well laid out for learning quickly while in production. Oh and seeing that everyone else is doing it (also because I love the book) Don't Make me think - Steve Krug There are many others in the area of good standards presentation and information design, depends on what flavors you prefer. William Rick Lecoat wrote: snip *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] hello - [OT]
Please can this be closed? It's far off any standards related topic. Possibly the only thing I can see as a relevant part of the 'Web 2.0 movement' is the abstraction of the presentational information from data on a page, which isn't being discussed here. If posting an off-topic message, please at least mark it as such so the rest of us can hit the delete button without checking it first for relevant information! Kind regards, John Hancock Identity From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Ortenzi Sent: Friday, 15 February 2008 6:32 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] hello That's art, Kat, design is different. And design is a significant part of the web. On Feb 12 2008, at 22:52, Katrina wrote: kevin mcmonagle wrote: yes its a buzzword mostly but from a design standpoint its also a genre. That's an interesting thought. Is Web 2.0 larger than the web itself? Has it become an art movement/period, in the same way as Modernism, Post-Modernism, Humanism, Impressionism, etc? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] tableless forms !!!
Plenty of references here: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2006/11/11/css-based-forms-modern-solutions/ On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:01:26 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi , Could anyone tell me which is the best way to build a form without tables in w3c standards. I would really appreciate if you can provide a good referral link. J Thanks a ton in advance.. Thanking you Naveen Bhaskar *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] an accessible question: server-side vs client-side validation
A website I was working on, client wants client-side validation, something fancy, something Ajax. The whole point of AJAX is that it's *not* client-side. It's both. So your client is a little confused if they said that. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] use of p in li
the flaw in this approach is the potential for adding divs for styling purposes only which is hardly ever necessary. I'm not saying that at all. Every layout is going to have containers; use the ones you've already got. Adding styles for every element has the potential for 'bloating' your CSS. -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] use of p in li
I'd say the only time you need to use paragraphs inside list items is when a list item's content is made up of more than one paragraph. On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:13:54 +1000, Tim MacKay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Taco, In the case of the example you provided I'd say definitely no need for the nested p tag. The li tags are enough to describe the content inside them - they are items in a list. I don't see how it is a duplicate style of the p tag either, in my experience it is good practice to style your lists differently than your paragraphs. Hope this helps, Best Regards, Tim From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taco Fleur Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 1:52 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] use of p in li This email was sent before an update of the site and the old version did not contain a list on the front-page (just incase someone was wondering;-) It's now updated, and has the example list on the front-page. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taco Fleur Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:31 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] use of p in li Hello all, I've been wondering about this for a while, just hesitated to ask (as it could be a stupid question). I've always been using p within olli (example, see state list on www.web-designers-australia.com) However, I see many people use a list without p tags, and style the text within the list item by creating a duplicate style of the paragraph tag. Just wondering, what is the way to go? Thanks *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] use of p in li
If you have two paragraphs you might want to reconsider the use of a list. I don't agree. Consider as an example a 'list' of services - it may take more than one paragraph to adequately describe each service, but it is still a list. -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] use of p in li
If the lists have a number of levels like Services Web Site Development Graphics SEO and more About Us Me You Someone else I'm not talking about presenting a list of links; I'm talking about presenting the actual content on a page. From your example above, it's quite feasible that you'd just have one page for Services and one for About Us. If you present * Web Site Development * Graphics * SEO as a list of services (which it is), then it's quite likely you're going to need more than one paragraph to describe each of them. I don't buy the definition list option because I don't believe a description of a service is a 'definition' of that service (descriptions and definitions are two separate things). The argument for splitting onto separate pages may not always be the best option either - there may not be enough to say about each one to warrant that, but there may be more than can fit into one single paragraph. You see bulleted or numbered lists of more than one paragraph in printed material all the time, particularly academic publications. -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] use of p in li
Assign the paragraph style to a HTML tag that is surrounding all other
tags?
If so, I would not feel comfortable with that.
Why not? If this is your HTML:
div class=content
psome text/p
ul
lisome text/li
/ul
/div
This
.content {
color: red;
font-size: 1em;
line-height: 1.5
}
makes more sense and is more concise than
p {
color: red;
font-size: 1em;
line-height: 1.5
}
li {
color: red;
font-size: 1em;
line-height: 1.5
}
Although I spose you could do
p, li {
color: red;
font-size: 1em;
line-height: 1.5
}
But there may be cases where you want to apply a style to more than two or
three elements, so it makes more sense to target them with a style on the
container.
--
Tyssen Design
http://www.tyssendesign.com.au
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Re: [WSG] use of p in li
If you apply the style to the container, then you don't need to assign styles individually to different elements (except where you want them to be different). On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:22:52 +1000, Taco Fleur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tim, What I mean by duplicate style is that if I assigned color: red, font-size: 0.8em to the p tag, I will have to assign the same style to my li tags to make sure they look the same. OK, general consensus so far is, it's ok to put it in, but preferred to leave them out and style the li tag separately. Thanks Kind regards, Taco Fleur _ clickfindT 1300 859 179 www.clickfind.com.au http://www.clickfind.com.au/ the new Australian search engine for businesses, products and services . _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim MacKay Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 1:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] use of p in li Hi Taco, In the case of the example you provided I'd say definitely no need for the nested p tag. The li tags are enough to describe the content inside them - they are items in a list. I don't see how it is a duplicate style of the p tag either, in my experience it is good practice to style your lists differently than your paragraphs. Hope this helps, Best Regards, Tim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP includes
Also is their a preference in web standards for using PHP includes or something like SSI? SSI stands for server side include which is essentially what a PHP include is. The only difference is the syntax used to call the include. -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] long description and its implementation
You don't need a longdesc in that example because you're already linking to it by an anchor. On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:34:09 +1000, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: here's the link to the example: http://studiokdd.com/sandbox/abstract-christian-art-new-testament.html i have the jesus and disciples pic set to the long description and the text link to the larger pic. any feedback would be appreciated. dwain On 2/2/08, Elizabeth Spiegel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Dwain See Joe Clark's book, Building accessible websites - online at http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter06.html Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dwain Sent: Saturday, 2 February 2008 4:33 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] long description and its implementation i have looked at the html 4.01 specs and i did not see any examples of how to implement the longdesc element. i am working on long descriptions on separate pages for each work of art on my web site. i am planning on placing a D link next to the text title of the work on the main category page. could someone point me in the direction to any other references as to the proper implementation of the longdesc element? maybe someone would provide a standards compliant example? tia, dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Explorer woes with list dropdowns
IE6 doesn't respect the *:hover pseudo selector if I remember rightly... It only supports it for anchors, e.g a:hover You may have to look at a small bit of javascript to 'activate' this behavior. No, because he's using one of Stu Nicholl's js-free menus. The trade off is a lot of IE conditional comments wrapped around table tags. :/ -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Compatibility and IE8
It's disturbing how well lemurs can illustrate the issue, too: http://www.katemonkey.co.uk/article/48/x-ua-lemur-compatible (the Zeldman lemur cracked me up completely) That's awesome! We can opt to save our energy for standards-based browsers and not bother learning new versions of IE. Lazy? Pragmatic? Mercenary? As others have pointed out, if everyone decides to lock sites into IE7, MS have no incentive to continue down the road of web standards and may in fact, do the opposite and actively promote against it. That could have serious consequences, e.g.: * MS does one thing and everyone else does another except worse than it is now where MS have at least been trying to come to the party, * MS does its best to tell everyone that hasn't yet bought into web standards that web standards are holding back the web, that their way is better, and end up killing it (web standards). -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Behave? Yes. But... I don't think anyone's made this point yet -- one key difference between the platforms is the display of form elements. Elements like buttons and select menus and checkboxes, etc., pretty much belong to the operating system and the browser is only borrowing them. If your design has an expectation that those elements can be finely controlled, cross-platform, then you might get an unpleasant surprise. For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Developing for Mixed Browsers - Form Buttons
This is why most of us are now using default form styling or a very simple approach (fieldset, legend, and possibly submit button). Cameron Adams makes a few good points at: http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/04/28/ , and of course - remember that his example button looks different in IE, Safari and Firefox! While this article is old, it covers most salient points and provides a simple approach that works well. Having said that, his 'Submit/Go' button is labelled as '', and the page options as \/, and these have two different effects (one shows a menu, one takes you to another page). Consistency is key - but remember that users usually browse in only one browser at a time. John Hancock identity.net.au PS. On a side-note, can we keep platform discussion to standards and implementation? 'My computer is bigger/better/faster/stronger' is fairly non-relevant to WSG and most of us aren't on the list to receive that kind of post. The cheapest way of getting a Mac testing environment is an older tower running OS X, and a G3 (or older) running IE5.5 if you care about these things. Personally I run an older mac for Safari 2 testing and older Firefox versions (1.5), and a newer one running Safari 3 and Firefox 2, alongside a PC running Safari, Opera, Firefox and IE7, with IE6 in the usual VPC, and also on an older box with remote desktop. If you're retentive about testing, then you may also wish to run a suite with flash turned off, a suite with javascript turned off and one with CSS turned off - not to mention the usual On 14/01/2008, at 12:47 PM, John Horner wrote: can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Behave? Yes. But... I don't think anyone's made this point yet -- one key difference between the platforms is the display of form elements. Elements like buttons and select menus and checkboxes, etc., pretty much belong to the operating system and the browser is only borrowing them. If your design has an expectation that those elements can be finely controlled, cross-platform, then you might get an unpleasant surprise. For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. = = = = = = = = == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments = = = = = = = = == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** kind regards, John Hancock Identity [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +61 2 8012 0274 f: +61 2 9799 6135 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym element
e.g. Web Standards Group (WSG) the WSG wouldn't benefit from the acronym element. No, I believe you only then need to use the acronym or abbr tag for the first instance of it following where it appears in brackets on any one page (ie at the start of a new page, you'd expand the acronym/abbreviation again). -- Regards John --- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: inline styles theoretical question
A textpattern form with inline styles, only gets loaded once and when a change is made to it every page on the site is globally updated. You may only have one file to edit, but what gets sent to the browser is still a different page for each entry with the inline styles needing to be downloaded for each individual page. What you're describing isn't unique to Textpattern, that's how all CMSs work - they use template files but the HTML doesn't get 'loaded once' and it doesn't get cached; only CSS in an external stylesheet gets cached. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
It's rather off-topic, but more to the point it's impossible, and your main task at this point is to explain to your client why even trying to do it is pointless and silly. If they can see the text, the text is on their computer. As Andrew said, either they want their information on the web or they don't. The well-known blogger Heather Dooce Armstrong tells a tale about a client who wanted to do this once. She replied that yes, we could do that and hey, while we're at it, we should also include some code in the page to disable their printer! The client thought that was a great idea. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Roper Sent: Friday, 21 December 2007 9:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page. Hi, We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page. The page will comprise two main areas: 1) Selection options in the form of select lists, check boxes etc. 2) Once the criteria have been selected then a 'Search' button will initiate a script that will query the database and display resulting text records in tabular format. The requirement is that the the user should be able to view the resulting output, but not to be able to copy/paste to other applications. Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with CSS etc? If this is considered off-topic then I would welcome suggestions for more appropriate forums. Many thanks in anticipation. Regards, -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta
Seems like someone is listening! The color buttons is gone No they're not. Unless you're referring to something different. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta
Yeah, that's right. I can still see them and they still change the colour of the page. On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:31:49 +1000, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well they are on my computer! (we're talking about the 4 colored buttons that changed the colors of the page... right?) John Faulds skrev: snip No they're not. Unless you're referring to something different. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] BBC in Beta
I don't know what's causing it, probably caching, but some of us in this office now have a new, almost completely different version of the BBC page, with no annoying colour changes, and some of us don't. Shift-reload? Randomise the URL? http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/beta/?noseriouslypleasereload might do it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: Wednesday, 19 December 2007 9:12 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta Yeah, that's right. I can still see them and they still change the colour of the page. On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:31:49 +1000, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well they are on my computer! (we're talking about the 4 colored buttons that changed the colors of the page... right?) John Faulds skrev: snip No they're not. Unless you're referring to something different. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] RE: BBC in Beta
- I really don't like the clock; it's so 1990s - we all have a clock on our computer/phone; I don't think it's needed. I think you're missing the nostalgia, the aah factor embodied in that clock -- British people have spent many *many* hours watching it. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta
Oh come on, let's not be so blinkered that we can't appreciate really good work in most areas! Felix isn't the only one who has a number of issues with the new design and for entirely different reasons - http://www.markboulton.co.uk/journal/comments/bbc_homepage_redesign/ I'd have to agree with Mark that the changing of the pages' colour scheme when you click on the coloured rectangles under the main picture is just weird. What's it meant to signify? -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Do we just throw out the img tag
Personally, I think the img tag has the correct semantics (and attributes) for an image. I'd just keep them for images in paragraphs and use css background for everything else. An object is just that! -Original Message- From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:36 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Do we just throw out the img tag Now that I have mastered putting an image in a site using CSS do we just throw out the img tag in standards based xhtml. And how does the use of css compare with use of the object tag http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/jun2004/ I found in my google searches on the issue. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers pre-installed on the desktop. I can't see that flying. Is anyone going to ask Apple to stop shipping their OS with Safari? On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:05:11 +1000, James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I read this on the Opera feed this morning, I'm not sure how it will proceed but it mentions: The complaint describes how Microsoft is abusing its dominant position by tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating system and by hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/ I wonder what the flow on effects of this would be internationally rather than just in the EU ? Of course there is the opinion that only lawyers win out of arguments like this but it would defnitely be a more interesting playground if IE wasn't bundled and supported accepted standards better. Cheers James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
Delivering their OSes with half a dozen pre-installed standard-compliant alternatives to IE/win isn't a technical problem, so why not? I'm no lawyer and I'm also no MS fanboy, but I think 'why?' is as equally a valid question as 'why not?'. My latest computer with Vista came pre-intalled with Windows Mail, Windows Media Player, Microsoft Works and Roxio CD Creator (this one may be more of an HP choice than MS); should I also expect my system to be preinstalled with Eudora/Thunderbird/Lotus Note, RealPlayer/Quicktime, OpenOffice and Nero? Is it reasonable for any OS vendor to have to install any more than one type of any application? For the less savvy users, having more than one option may actually make things more difficult for them. Surely it's any manufacturer's right to choose what components they use in their own product (as long as there aren't health and safety concerns involved)? -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
but their os should be able to run other optional packages that the customer chooses. Out of all the applications Gav I mentioned previously, all the alternatives are easily installed on Windows (including Vista), and that's certainly the case for other browsers, so I don't really see your point. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Comment mark
It should be: !-- ... -- (no 2nd !). On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:40:52 +1000, Hayden's Harness Attachment [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: !-- ... --! -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] list image not showing properly LI
Hi Taco,
Have you got a link to the page you're trying to fix this on?
Regards,
John Hancock
Identity
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Taco Fleur
Sent: Friday, 7 December 2007 12:51 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] list image not showing properly LI
Hello all,
I have a problem where the list image is not showing properly
form#search-main .li1 {
background: url(/_resource/image/form/step_1.gif) top left
no-repeat;
}
I realize this is not exactly assigning an image to the list item, but I
went down that path before, and it didn't work out either.
The problem I am having now is that in IE7 it doesn't display well when I
specify a height of 3em (see below) and the content is larger than that.
form#search-main li {
height: 3em;
padding: 0.5em 0 0.5em 50px;
clear: left;
}
The css is on
www.clickfind.com.au/_resource/style/layout/search/default.css
In the end I'll accept any suggestion that displays the numbered icons in
the same position they are now, but not causing problems elsewhere.
Thanks in advance..
clickfindT 1300 859 179
www.clickfind.com.au the new Australian search engine for businesses,
products and services .
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Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
I'd think a little bit more about what you want your CMS to do before jumping in with Joomla. I've only given it a cursory look over before because I wasn't that impressed particularly by the sort of templating it uses and the code it outputs. If your client just wants to edit pages themselves and maybe add some news items, you might find that Joomla has a lot more functionality than you actually need and you might find something like Wordpress or Textpattern better suits your needs. If you host supports Joomla, you'll be able to use pretty much any other open source CMS too. So, not having used Joomla, but having used others like Wordpress, Expression Engine and CMS Made Simple, to answer your question: yes, you'd create a basic HTML template first and then split it up into the various template files that the CMS uses. Along the way you'll need to learn a bit about the in-built functions that the CMSs use to do various dynamic functions. On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:39:27 +1000, Lyn Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn Patterson Western Web Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Markup question
I have to mark up a club constitution where all the paragraphs are numbered but there are also headings that are supposed to relate to paragraphs, e.g.: Heading 1 1. Paragraph goes here 2. Paragraph goes here 3. Paragraph goes here Heading 2 4. Paragraph goes here 5. Paragraph goes here Heading 3 6. Paragraph goes here etc. An ordered list seems like the most obvious choice but what would I do with the headings which fall outside of the list items? -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Markup question
Thanks Christian. I was aware of the start attribute and also it's validity but it seems like it's probably the best option in this case. On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:35:00 +1000, Christian Snodgrass [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We actually had this issue about 2 months ago. There is a deprecated attribute for order list called start. You can use that, but it won't be valid HTML Strict (though it is Transitional). You can also use the CSS counter element, which should work in your case. The name of the old topic is Catch 22 list problem, which you can find in the WSG archives if you want to read the full discussion. John Faulds wrote: I have to mark up a club constitution where all the paragraphs are numbered but there are also headings that are supposed to relate to paragraphs, e.g.: Heading 1 1. Paragraph goes here 2. Paragraph goes here 3. Paragraph goes here Heading 2 4. Paragraph goes here 5. Paragraph goes here Heading 3 6. Paragraph goes here etc. An ordered list seems like the most obvious choice but what would I do with the headings which fall outside of the list items? -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page shift in IE6
Hi Georg,
Yep, that did it. It looks like it was the % padding causing the problem.
Huge thanks for the time and effort you spent helping me out on this one!
Cheers
John
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:56:44 +1000, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
John Faulds wrote:
I appreciate all your efforst so far Georg, but could I impose a little
bit more and ask you to put a version of the page you've made online so
I can compare because I'm still getting a noticeable shift at my end?
Sure...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/jf-1/test_07_1121.html
IE/win styles in the page head.
The last pixel-shift is due to the...
#wrap {
padding: 0 2%;
}
IE6 calculates that percentage-padding wrong on first load and shift
#wrap 1px to one side and #content 1px to the other.
Once a link-hovering inside that construction causes IE6 to recalculate
and re-render, the mistake is corrected - causing the visible shift.
My solution is to give IE6 something it can not miscalculate - pixels...
* html #wrap {
padding: 0 20px;
}
regards
Georg
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Re: [WSG] Iframe navigation accessibility question
On 22/11/2007, at 1:31 AM, James Leslie wrote: Hi Folks, I have just inherited a bands website which places all of the navigation (both top and bottom links) in iframes. I don't 100% understand why the developer chose to do this unless it is emulating php includes in static html, anyway, it seems like a bad idea to me and is high on my list of things to sort out on the site. My question is: Is this as inaccessible as I fear it is? Yes, at least in my own (real world) testing. Will a screen reader be likely to have issues with it? Mine does, and my father-in-law's partner's does (older Jaws version). I have to do a new version of the site around Easter next year when a new album comes out, I'm wondering whether I should spend the time fixing this version up in the meantime or whether it's issues are not as harmful as I fear. I would fix it now, you can always mention it as a SEO problem if you need to provide a business case for it. kind regards, John Hancock Identity [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +61 2 8012 0274 f: +61 2 9799 6135 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page shift in IE6
The pixel-based min/max version is a much easier solution then, but yours needs adjustments. The 4% missing with a fluid state of 96% width, is not identical to the 18px you have between attack and max-width values, and same goes for the 'min-width' part. It is percentage of the body-width you're dealing with, and that naturally varies with window-width. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by 'attack'. Calculate new values or tune them by testing, until there's no jumping at either end and no appearing horizontal scrollbar when in the fluid state. Will work well enough for most, I think. I see maybe a 1px horizontal jump when hovering any link now - in my corrected copy and your present page, and that's hardly enough to hunt and kill IE/win bugs for. Could you show me what you've got in your corrected copy because I'm unsure which values I'm supposed to be tuning? Cheers John -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] question about max-width's behaviour
The purpose of max-width loses if it can't overruled the ems behavior. It's not a case of max-width overruling ems. Ems is related to font-size which is why it's used for fluid/elastic layouts - it's *supposed* to increase as you increase the text size. If you don't want your layout to expand past a certain fixed size, then you should be using a pixel value, and not ems. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page shift in IE6
I appreciate all your efforst so far Georg, but could I impose a little
bit more and ask you to put a version of the page you've made online so I
can compare because I'm still getting a noticeable shift at my end?
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:33:06 +1000, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
John Faulds wrote:
Could you show me what you've got in your corrected copy because I'm
unsure which values I'm supposed to be tuning?
Ok, here's a smooth-working version...
* html #wrap {
width: 95%;
width:expression(((document.compatMode
document.compatMode=='CSS1Compat') ?
document.documentElement.clientWidth
: document.body.clientWidth) 1200 ?
1140px : (((document.compatMode
document.compatMode=='CSS1Compat') ?
document.documentElement.clientWidth
: document.body.clientWidth) 860 ? 820px
: 95%));
}
...ready for copy and paste into the IE.css, if all other parameters
in your page are as before.
In the above ' 1200' is the attack, the value used in the greater
than argument for when the 1140px - the max-width - should be used
as 'width'.
Likewise, the ' 860' is the attack, the value used in the smaller
than argument for when the 820px - the min-width - should be used
as 'width'.
In between those two attack points is the fluid state where the
'width' = 95%, which is the value I chose to avoid a flickering
horizontal scrollbar in that particular layout.
So, as you can see: there are 5 values that must fit the specific
layout. One can either calculate them, or one can simply test and adjust
- tune - until it all works smoothly and looks right - like I just did
on a copy of your page.
regards
Georg
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[WSG] Page shift in IE6
Hi I've got a page shift happening when you hover over certain elements in the right column on this page: http://www.gbjt.org.au/competitions/enrolment/ It happens when you hover over the links in the top box and over any of the form inputs, but not on the links in the two smaller boxes. I know that these sorts of shifts are usually due to hasLayout issues, and I've been adding height and zoom to various elements but I can't seem to find how to solve it. :/ It's also related to the max-width expression I'm using on the wrapper because if I take it out it disappears. Can anyone see what I'm missing? Cheers John -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page shift in IE6
Hi Georg, It's at: http://www.gbjt.org.au/css/IE.css On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:08:11 +1000, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Faulds wrote: I've got a page shift happening when you hover over certain elements in the right column on this page: http://www.gbjt.org.au/competitions/enrolment/ Can you provide a link directly to your IE stylesheet? It's a bit difficult to track down from the outside. Looks like you're using auto as fall-back in your expression. That'll trigger 'Layout' on and off, with the quite normal result that it messes with some of your positioning. Can't suggest proper fix without seeing all your IE styles. However, adding 'hasLayout' triggers all over the place rarely fixes anything since we're dealing with a bug that has as many negative sides as it has positive. regards Georg -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page shift in IE6
1: the large shifting is easiest solved by deleting all R:P styles on
sidebar...
#sidebar {
position: relative; -- delete
z-index: 200; -- delete
}
I had that there because the top link in the sidebar seems to get
partially obscured by the transparent PNG of the ball. I'm sure it was
working at some point, but doesn't seem to be now. :/
I've tried moving the font-size to the wrapper and using the revised
expression for px/em-based min/max-width from your example but it doesn't
stop the page shift and also the max-width doesn't get applied either.
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Re: [WSG] Site check
I fear for their welfare. Best, ~dL -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ Me too. Personally I like seeing h1 tags have only text content in them, and to at least have text content in them. Hey, are we in a timewarp? I have an issue that a lot of the content is inaccurate (eg. Ajax isn't a programming language) and lots of the rest is hard to use, or feels unfinished, from the Web button that when clicked, does nothing but float and return, via the 'web gallery wheel of doom' to the Work links' flash of unstyled content (FOUC) which is very avoidable. Kenny, you've got some fairly big issues with the site. I suggest reading a good book, maybe something like 'Designing with Web Standards', or alternatively 'Foucault's Pendulum'. If you want I can guide you through fixing some of the more obvious ones off-list, stuff like the empty (and useless) span/spans in the nav. Although XHTML 1.1 valid, a cursory glance at webxact would show your site fails some of the basic accessibility standards and quality checks. John *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Navigation - Pseudo Standards?
Hi Christie, The 'average joe/average jane' site visitor would expect the site navigation at the top (and possibly some links at the bottom), with the product navigation usually on the left. The exceptions to this usually involve multi-level, drop-down or drop-line menus which are under the header section of the page. Amazon has been a good example of this. Is there an overriding reason for using two side columns? This would usually cut out 800x600 viewers unless you want to do some really nifty javascript style switching to turn it into a bottom/top column for smaller screen resolutions. kind regards, John Hancock Identity [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +61 2 8012 0274 f: +61 2 9799 6135 On 15/11/2007, at 5:02 PM, Christie Mason wrote: We're having an internal discussion about the placement of site navigation (Contact Us, etc) vs Product Navigation (Search, Category 1, Category 2, etc) in a 3 column layout with | Navigation |Content | Navigation | Some feel the site navigation should be in the left column with products in the right column, others feel the opposite. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Web Form Best Practices
Here's a recent one that might prove useful: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/redesigning_ebay_registration/ On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:55:46 +1000, Howard Kim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope this question is appropriate for this list. I'm doing some research on best practices for creating web forms with the following in mind: * Accessibility * Semantic Markup with CSS * Form Layout Design I would like to come up with some form templates for my organization based on best practices and web standards. I was wondering if anyone knew of any resources related to this topic. I've done a Google search for web form best practices which came back with a huge number of responses. Any help focusing my search? Many thanks. ~Howard *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
