Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Darren West]

To be clear, my statement, which was quite sweeping, was meant to
express that when a site is built for computers as opposed to humans
then that to me flies in the face of Web Standards. So I agree :-)


2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 3 Jun 2008, at 12:55, Darren West wrote:
>
>> I do feel this is all rather subjective and depends on what you're
>> building, that is until you consider SEO; which I feel flies in the
>> face of Web Standards
>
> I agree that much of this stuff is, inevitably, subjective. Web standards
> gives us a good framework to work to, but within that there are always
> numerous ways to skin the same cat (yes, it's a very unlucky cat).
>
> Re. SEO, I think that it can work just fine alongside web standards -- in
> moderation; as soon as you get too SEO-crazed you risk starting to erode the
> web standards 'purity' (if that doesn't sound too fascist) in order to
> accommodate some pro-Google trick or another.
>
> The root of Google's webmaster guidelines can be summarised as "just create
> your page for humans to read without difficulty and don't obsess about
> trying to manipulate our search engine", and really that's not so far from
> web standards, is it?
>
> --
> Rick Lecoat
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Rick Lecoat]

On 3 Jun 2008, at 12:55, Darren West wrote:


I do feel this is all rather subjective and depends on what you're
building, that is until you consider SEO; which I feel flies in the
face of Web Standards


I agree that much of this stuff is, inevitably, subjective. Web  
standards gives us a good framework to work to, but within that there  
are always numerous ways to skin the same cat (yes, it's a very  
unlucky cat).


Re. SEO, I think that it can work just fine alongside web standards --  
in moderation; as soon as you get too SEO-crazed you risk starting to  
erode the web standards 'purity' (if that doesn't sound too fascist)  
in order to accommodate some pro-Google trick or another.


The root of Google's webmaster guidelines can be summarised as "just  
create your page for humans to read without difficulty and don't  
obsess about trying to manipulate our search engine", and really  
that's not so far from web standards, is it?


--
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Darren West]

I do feel this is all rather subjective and depends on what you're
building, that is until you consider SEO; which I feel flies in the
face of Web Standards


2008/6/3 Stewart Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> For the title you should really switch it around so that it is more specific
> to the page, and will be much better for SEO purposes.
>
> Page title - Section Title - Site title
>
> For the Logo &  aspect, I would personally use the gilder/levin image
> replacement technique, using within this the "Page title - Section Title -
> Site title" combination within a  tag.
>
> This way you get a fancy logo, plus the benefits of you keyword rich "Page
> title - Section Title - Site title" combination to help boost your on-site
> SEO.
>
> Stew
>
>
> 2008/6/3 Paul Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>
>> To throw another question in here, should the page title therefore be
>> different to the main heading of the page? I thought the content in
>> the page title should be as specific as possible for SEO, including
>> the heirarchy?
>>
>> So, for example
>>
>> Site title - Section Title - Page title
>>
>> And
>>
>> Page title, section title or Logo?
>>
>> Once you have it in the title tag, does it matter whether you have the
>> logo in a H1 or not? Should you have something different between the
>> title and main heading?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> 2008/6/3 Darren West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> > My 2 pence ...
>> >
>> > Page title - Site title
>> > 
>> >
>> > 
>> > 
>> >Page Title
>> >...
>> > 
>> > 
>> >Search
>> >> > 
>> > 
>> >Navigation
>> >> > 
>> >
>> >
>> > 2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> >> On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> How about:
>> >>>
>> >>> The Times
>> >>>
>> >>> Homepage
>> >>>
>> >>> There's water on mars
>> >>>
>> >>> 
>> >>>
>> >>> The Times
>> >>>
>> >>> Financial stuff
>> >>>
>> >>> Redmond stock going down further
>> >>>
>> >>> etc...
>> >>>
>> >>> Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be
>> >>> best? And if so, where?
>> >>
>> >> My understanding of the  tag is that it is the title of the
>> >> page, not
>> >> the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a different
>> >> title
>> >> (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to its content -- so
>> >> the
>> >> above examples are not ideal IMHO.
>> >>
>> >> Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page
>> >> without
>> >> styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company logo is
>> >> concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is both a
>> >> background
>> >> image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether you have styles on
>> >> or
>> >> off. That's my preferred technique.
>> >>
>> >> I just put the logo image in a  and keep the H1 for the
>> >> page's own title.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Rick Lecoat
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ***
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Rick Lecoat]

On 3 Jun 2008, at 12:29, Paul Collins wrote:


Once you have it in the title tag, does it matter whether you have the
logo in a H1 or not? Should you have something different between the
title and main heading?


I would think that this starts to enter the realm of information that  
is machine-read vs that which is human-read. When I open a web page I  
don't tend to look much at the browser's title bar; I look at the page  
content itself. (The title bar comes more into play when I'm switching  
between tabs). Google, on the other hand, pays a great deal of  
attention to the title bar -- or, rather, the title tag that populates  
it. It also looks at the page content as well, of course.


I think that as long as you avoid excessive duplication (ie. start  
keyword stuffing) there is no problem having some duplication of  
content between your title and main heading; humans and machines will  
each view both blocks of information to some degree, but will place  
different emphasis on one or the other.


I would guess that screen readers will fall somewhere between the two  
in terms of how useful they find  vs. the page's main heading.  
But that's pure supposition, so don't take my word for it. Plenty of  
very knowledgeable people on this list can fill in those blanks.


--
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Stewart Griffiths]

For the title you should really switch it around so that it is more specific
to the page, and will be much better for SEO purposes.

Page title - Section Title - Site title

For the Logo &  aspect, I would personally use the gilder/levin image
replacement technique, using within this the "Page title - Section Title -
Site title" combination within a  tag.

This way you get a fancy logo, plus the benefits of you keyword rich "Page
title - Section Title - Site title" combination to help boost your on-site
SEO.

Stew


2008/6/3 Paul Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> To throw another question in here, should the page title therefore be
> different to the main heading of the page? I thought the content in
> the page title should be as specific as possible for SEO, including
> the heirarchy?
>
> So, for example
>
> Site title - Section Title - Page title
>
> And
>
> Page title, section title or Logo?
>
> Once you have it in the title tag, does it matter whether you have the
> logo in a H1 or not? Should you have something different between the
> title and main heading?
>
> Cheers
>
>
> 2008/6/3 Darren West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > My 2 pence ...
> >
> > Page title - Site title
> > 
> >
> > 
> > 
> >Page Title
> >...
> > 
> > 
> >Search
> > > 
> > 
> >Navigation
> > > 
> >
> >
> > 2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote:
> >>
> >>> How about:
> >>>
> >>> The Times
> >>>
> >>> Homepage
> >>>
> >>> There's water on mars
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>> The Times
> >>>
> >>> Financial stuff
> >>>
> >>> Redmond stock going down further
> >>>
> >>> etc...
> >>>
> >>> Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be
> >>> best? And if so, where?
> >>
> >> My understanding of the  tag is that it is the title of the page,
> not
> >> the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a different
> title
> >> (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to its content -- so
> the
> >> above examples are not ideal IMHO.
> >>
> >> Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page
> without
> >> styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company logo is
> >> concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is both a
> background
> >> image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether you have styles on
> or
> >> off. That's my preferred technique.
> >>
> >> I just put the logo image in a  and keep the H1 for the
> >> page's own title.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Rick Lecoat
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ***
> >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Paul Collins]

To throw another question in here, should the page title therefore be
different to the main heading of the page? I thought the content in
the page title should be as specific as possible for SEO, including
the heirarchy?

So, for example

Site title - Section Title - Page title

And

Page title, section title or Logo?

Once you have it in the title tag, does it matter whether you have the
logo in a H1 or not? Should you have something different between the
title and main heading?

Cheers


2008/6/3 Darren West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> My 2 pence ...
>
> Page title - Site title
> 
>
> 
> 
>Page Title
>...
> 
> 
>Search
> 
> 
>Navigation
> 
>
>
> 2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote:
>>
>>> How about:
>>>
>>> The Times
>>>
>>> Homepage
>>>
>>> There's water on mars
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> The Times
>>>
>>> Financial stuff
>>>
>>> Redmond stock going down further
>>>
>>> etc...
>>>
>>> Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be
>>> best? And if so, where?
>>
>> My understanding of the  tag is that it is the title of the page, not
>> the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a different title
>> (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to its content -- so the
>> above examples are not ideal IMHO.
>>
>> Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page without
>> styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company logo is
>> concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is both a background
>> image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether you have styles on or
>> off. That's my preferred technique.
>>
>> I just put the logo image in a  and keep the H1 for the
>> page's own title.
>>
>> --
>> Rick Lecoat
>>
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Darren West]

My 2 pence ...

Page title - Site title




Page Title
...


Search


Navigation



2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote:
>
>> How about:
>>
>> The Times
>>
>> Homepage
>>
>> There's water on mars
>>
>> 
>>
>> The Times
>>
>> Financial stuff
>>
>> Redmond stock going down further
>>
>> etc...
>>
>> Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be
>> best? And if so, where?
>
> My understanding of the  tag is that it is the title of the page, not
> the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a different title
> (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to its content -- so the
> above examples are not ideal IMHO.
>
> Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page without
> styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company logo is
> concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is both a background
> image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether you have styles on or
> off. That's my preferred technique.
>
> I just put the logo image in a  and keep the H1 for the
> page's own title.
>
> --
> Rick Lecoat
>
>
>
> ***
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Rick Lecoat]

On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote:


How about:

The Times

Homepage

There's water on mars



The Times

Financial stuff

Redmond stock going down further

etc...

Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image  
be best? And if so, where?


My understanding of the  tag is that it is the title of the  
page, not the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a  
different title (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to  
its content -- so the above examples are not ideal IMHO.


Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page  
without styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company  
logo is concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is  
both a background image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether  
you have styles on or off. That's my preferred technique.


I just put the logo image in a  and keep the H1 for the  
page's own title.


--
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Matijs]

How about:

The Times

Homepage

There's water on mars



The Times

Financial stuff

Redmond stock going down further

etc...

Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be best?
And if so, where?

Matijs

On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 2:38 AM, Adam Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Agree... but if you are wrapping it in a block element so that you can
> position it etc... then it is easier just to change its properties via css
> to act like a block element. No need for extra markup.
>
> Stuart Foulstone wrote:
>
>> But, CSS changes presentation - displaying something as "block" doesn't
>> stop it being an inline element, just it's presentation.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 30, 2008 11:18 pm, Adam Martin wrote:
>>
>>
>>> img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An
>>> inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at
>>> all!
>>>
>>> img {
>>> display: block
>>> }
>>>
>>> Kroon.Kurtis wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not top-posting
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Miscellaneous
>>>> Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
>>>>
>>>> ... not be using a p tag [to] hold the logo --Adam
>>>> ... A  tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text.  If it is only
>>>> holding an image, then there is no need for the surrounding  tag.
>>>> --Matt
>>>> ... see what www.alistapart.com is now using --Roxanne
>>>> ... beginning to think [a plain] html image tag would be better suited
>>>> to mark-up a company logo --Chris
>>>> ... I already blogged that. --Jason
>>>> ... only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As
>>>> you move through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top
>>>> heading on the page - on a category/index page it would be that
>>>> category's name; on a specific content page it should be the headline on
>>>> the content. --Ben
>>>> ... fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no
>>>> cover. People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the
>>>> home page. --Thierry
>>>>
>>>> ... etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this ... but  is an inline
>>>> element.
>>>>
>>>> So, it has to be contained in a block-level element, like p, h#, div,
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Kurtis Kroon
>>>> Franchise Tax Board
>>>> State of California
>>>> 916-845-5603
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __
>>>>
>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email from the State of California is for
>>>> the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
>>>> privileged information.  Any unauthorized review or use, including
>>>> disclosure or distribution, is prohibited.  If you are not the intended
>>>> recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this
>>>> email.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Adam Martin]

Agree... but if you are wrapping it in a block element so that you can 
position it etc... then it is easier just to change its properties via 
css to act like a block element. No need for extra markup.


Stuart Foulstone wrote:

But, CSS changes presentation - displaying something as "block" doesn't
stop it being an inline element, just it's presentation.



On Fri, May 30, 2008 11:18 pm, Adam Martin wrote:
  

img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An
inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at
all!

img {
display: block
}

Kroon.Kurtis wrote:


I'm not top-posting



-Original Message-
From: Miscellaneous
Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

... not be using a p tag [to] hold the logo --Adam
... A  tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text.  If it is only
holding an image, then there is no need for the surrounding  tag.
--Matt
... see what www.alistapart.com is now using --Roxanne
... beginning to think [a plain] html image tag would be better suited
to mark-up a company logo --Chris
... I already blogged that. --Jason
... only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As
you move through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top
heading on the page - on a category/index page it would be that
category's name; on a specific content page it should be the headline on
the content. --Ben
... fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no
cover. People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the
home page. --Thierry

... etc.


I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this ... but  is an inline
element.

So, it has to be contained in a block-level element, like p, h#, div,
etc.

Kurtis Kroon
Franchise Tax Board
State of California
916-845-5603

__

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the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
privileged information.  Any unauthorized review or use, including
disclosure or distribution, is prohibited.  If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Drew Trusz]

On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Jens Brueckmann
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I said it may explain ALA's approach, but that doesn't mean I like the idea
>>  ;)
>>  fwiw, I never use more than one H1 per document since I'm using it for site
>>  title. imho, if H1 is used for site title it can't be used again in the
>>  page.
>
> I agree. Two level-1 headings seem somewhat confusing to me.
>

Why is it confusing? Unusual perhaps.  What's the basis in the specs
for this kind of argument? The specs discuss sections not pages or
documents -- just sections. If an author is comfortable defining a
section as a page or a document, that's fine. But saying that once an
h1 is used as a page title it can't be used again on the page, or that
ALA has "the" right way simply can't be supported. These are simply
alternate interpretations of the term section. Indeed again it is
worth pointing out that in the specs h1 is wrapped in a div to help
define the section not the other way around.

Even the discussion of skipping numbered headers isn't definitive. The
note says "some people" not "you must not". Granted that the some
people is as I recall having this discussion a few years back, IEEE,
it is still not normative.. Again, if you want to read the tea leaves,
look at the html5 specs. There h1-h6 are clearly subordinate to
sections and site headers.

So within rather broad guidelines it is a matter of choice. When and
if 5 is implemented the choices are more confined and proper semantic
use of elements will go much further towards making it possible for
UA's to more fruitfully interpret author intent  which is the point of
css and xhtml in enhancing usability and accessibility.

drew


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Jens Brueckmann]

> I said it may explain ALA's approach, but that doesn't mean I like the idea
>  ;)
>  fwiw, I never use more than one H1 per document since I'm using it for site
>  title. imho, if H1 is used for site title it can't be used again in the
>  page.

I agree. Two level-1 headings seem somewhat confusing to me.

How about putting both logo and title in the heading?

Something like



Page Title


This associates the title with the company.
Anchor/image may be absolutely positioned with CSS, in unstyled pages
the image is in line with the title and in UAs not displaying images
the alternative text, the company name, precludes the title.

For the title TAG, I recommend the opposite order: first Page Title,
then Company Name.

Many benefits - any disadvantages?

Cheers,

jens

-- 
Jens Brueckmann
http://www.yalf.de


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[James Jeffery]

I always use a H1.

If i have an image that says "John Supermarket" i will use that as the
background for the H1. In the H1 i will put:

Johns Supermarket

And push it off the page with CSS. Its extra code bloat, maybe, but oly
because there is no other way to push anonymous elements off the page.


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Stuart Foulstone]

But, CSS changes presentation - displaying something as "block" doesn't
stop it being an inline element, just it's presentation.



On Fri, May 30, 2008 11:18 pm, Adam Martin wrote:
> img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An
> inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at
> all!
>
> img {
> display: block
> }
>
> Kroon.Kurtis wrote:
>>> I'm not top-posting
>>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Miscellaneous
>> Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
>>
>> ... not be using a p tag [to] hold the logo --Adam
>> ... A  tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text.  If it is only
>> holding an image, then there is no need for the surrounding  tag.
>> --Matt
>> ... see what www.alistapart.com is now using --Roxanne
>> ... beginning to think [a plain] html image tag would be better suited
>> to mark-up a company logo --Chris
>> ... I already blogged that. --Jason
>> ... only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As
>> you move through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top
>> heading on the page - on a category/index page it would be that
>> category's name; on a specific content page it should be the headline on
>> the content. --Ben
>> ... fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no
>> cover. People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the
>> home page. --Thierry
>>
>> ... etc.
>>
>>
>> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this ... but  is an inline
>> element.
>>
>> So, it has to be contained in a block-level element, like p, h#, div,
>> etc.
>>
>> Kurtis Kroon
>> Franchise Tax Board
>> State of California
>> 916-845-5603
>>
>> __
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email from the State of California is for
>> the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
>> privileged information.  Any unauthorized review or use, including
>> disclosure or distribution, is prohibited.  If you are not the intended
>> recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this
>> email.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Christian Snodgrass]

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Adam Martin
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:19 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An
inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at
all!




You might need a containing element for the IMG element, this depends on
document type.


  
Additionally, using CSS to make an img -display- like a block only makes 
it act like a block level element. It doesn't mean it is a block-level 
element semantically.


--

Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ <http://www.arwebdesign.net>
Phone: 859.816.7955



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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Thierry Koblentz]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Adam Martin
> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:19 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
> 
> img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An
> inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at
> all!


You might need a containing element for the IMG element, this depends on
document type.


-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Adam Martin]

img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An 
inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at 
all!


img {
display: block
}

Kroon.Kurtis wrote:

I'm not top-posting



-Original Message-
From: Miscellaneous
Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

... not be using a p tag [to] hold the logo --Adam
... A  tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text.  If it is only holding an 
image, then there is no need for the surrounding  tag. --Matt
... see what www.alistapart.com is now using --Roxanne
... beginning to think [a plain] html image tag would be better suited to 
mark-up a company logo --Chris
... I already blogged that. --Jason
... only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As you move 
through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top heading on the 
page - on a category/index page it would be that category's name; on a specific 
content page it should be the headline on the content. --Ben
... fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no cover. 
People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the home page. 
--Thierry

... etc.


I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this ... but  is an inline element.

So, it has to be contained in a block-level element, like p, h#, div, etc.

Kurtis Kroon
Franchise Tax Board
State of California
916-845-5603

__

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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Thierry Koblentz]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:24 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
> 
> But does two H1's in a row really agree with the spec? My understanding
> was that a sub-level could repeat immediately, but H1's were not
> supposed to.

I said it may explain ALA's approach, but that doesn't mean I like the idea
;)
fwiw, I never use more than one H1 per document since I'm using it for site
title. imho, if H1 is used for site title it can't be used again in the
page.

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Kroon.Kurtis]

> I'm not top-posting

-Original Message-
From: Miscellaneous
Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

... not be using a p tag [to] hold the logo --Adam
... A  tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text.  If it is only holding 
an image, then there is no need for the surrounding  tag. --Matt
... see what www.alistapart.com is now using --Roxanne
... beginning to think [a plain] html image tag would be better suited to 
mark-up a company logo --Chris
... I already blogged that. --Jason
... only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As you move 
through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top heading on the 
page - on a category/index page it would be that category's name; on a specific 
content page it should be the headline on the content. --Ben
... fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no cover. 
People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the home page. 
--Thierry

... etc.


I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this ... but  is an inline element.

So, it has to be contained in a block-level element, like p, h#, div, etc.

Kurtis Kroon
Franchise Tax Board
State of California
916-845-5603

__

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email from the State of California is for the sole 
use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged 
information.  Any unauthorized review or use, including disclosure or 
distribution, is prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender and destroy all copies of this email.  



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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[michael.brockington]

But does two H1's in a row really agree with the spec? My understanding
was that a sub-level could repeat immediately, but H1's were not
supposed to.

For example:
Okay:
H1
 H2
 H2
  H3
H1
 H2


Bad:
H1
H1


Regards,
Mike


>
>That's a good point and it may explain the ALA's approach:
>
>The Times
>There is water on Mars
>
>



Mike Brockington
Web Development Specialist

www.calcResult.com
www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
www.edinburgh.gov.uk

This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
author alone.


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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Thierry Koblentz]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Dorward
> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:30 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
> 
> On 30 May 2008, at 15:50, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
> > I'd say when it comes to "news" the source is very important, so
> > imho the
> > publisher is key.
> 
> Important? Yes.
> 
> More important then the title? No.

That's a good point and it may explain the ALA's approach:

The Times
There is water on Mars


-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com








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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[David Dorward]

On 30 May 2008, at 15:50, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
I'd say when it comes to "news" the source is very important, so  
imho the

publisher is key.


Important? Yes.

More important then the title? No.

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Drew Trusz]

>
> I'd say when it comes to "news" the source is very important, so imho the
> publisher is key.
>
> Imaging this:
>
> The Times
> There is water on Mars
>
> or this:
>
> The Sun
> There is water on Mars
>
> versus:
>
> There is water on Mars
>
> --

So following the specs that a " heading element briefly describes the
topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by
user agents, for
example, to construct a table of contents for a document
automatically" you now have:


I. The Times
  A. There is water on Mars

Or


I. The Sun
   A. There is water on Mars


Or

1. There is water on Mars


Perhaps this might work:

1. The Sun

II. There is water on mars.





drew


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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Thierry Koblentz]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:37 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
> 
> 
> But the Webpage (or the entire site for that matter) is not be about "The
> Sun" or "The Times" - it's about the news.  And the news is what the user
> is looking for.

I'd say when it comes to "news" the source is very important, so imho the
publisher is key.

Imaging this:

The Times
There is water on Mars

or this:

The Sun
There is water on Mars

versus:

There is water on Mars 

-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Robert O'Rourke]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

If you want to look at things from that angle, then we have to make a
split between what the user wants - news, information, entertainment,
etc.
what the commissioner wants,
and what the search engines want.

All sites on the web arguable fall into one of three categories:
Hobby sites,
Businesses,
Promotional sites (for businesses mainly)
  


Web Apps, Teaching sites, intranets, social networking???


NB The difference between the latter two may not be obvious to the
end-user - it is a business decision made by the owner.

For sites that do fall into the latter category, whether or not they
carry news items, the site is NOT 'about the news' it is about promoting
the larger business.

Clearly every site needs to make the right balance between the needs of
the users, the owners and the search engines, but any suggestion that
this can be covered by a single sweeping, blanket statement is a
surprise from someone with your reputation and experience.
  
Regards,Mike


  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone

Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:37 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo


But the Webpage (or the entire site for that matter) is not be 
about "The Sun" or "The Times" - it's about the news.  And the 
news is what the user is looking for.



Stuart is talking from the perspective of SEO. It would be desirable for 
a website like 'the times' to be the top result when you google 'news'. 
You're right that it depends on context. Lea and I think Ben Buchanan 
mentioned that they use  for company name on the home page which is 
an excellent idea. Think about it, unless the company/website name has 
absolutely nothing to do with what it does then for a home page the 
company name is key. Especially so for well known brands or for any site 
that wants to be found by name and not just through it's normal content. 
Some sites have only a home page and hidden content that requires 
registration eg. facebook.


I still think using hCard markup for the website name and logo is a good 
alternative to add to this argument.


-Rob


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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[michael.brockington]

If you want to look at things from that angle, then we have to make a
split between what the user wants - news, information, entertainment,
etc.
what the commissioner wants,
and what the search engines want.

All sites on the web arguable fall into one of three categories:
Hobby sites,
Businesses,
Promotional sites (for businesses mainly)

NB The difference between the latter two may not be obvious to the
end-user - it is a business decision made by the owner.

For sites that do fall into the latter category, whether or not they
carry news items, the site is NOT 'about the news' it is about promoting
the larger business.

Clearly every site needs to make the right balance between the needs of
the users, the owners and the search engines, but any suggestion that
this can be covered by a single sweeping, blanket statement is a
surprise from someone with your reputation and experience.

Regards,
Mike


>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
>Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:37 AM
>To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
>
>
>But the Webpage (or the entire site for that matter) is not be 
>about "The Sun" or "The Times" - it's about the news.  And the 
>news is what the user is looking for.
>
>


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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Stuart Foulstone]

But the Webpage (or the entire site for that matter) is not be about "The
Sun" or "The Times" - it's about the news.  And the news is what the user
is looking for.



On Fri, May 30, 2008 9:10 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> My take on this, is that IT ALL DEPENDS !
> Every site is different.
> For example: www.calcresult.com does not use a traditional image-based
> logo, so the arguments that the site logo is 'just a simple image' fails
> completely.
>
>
> Some sites look a bit like a newspaper. Newspapers themselves vary
> considerably (in the UK at least.) Some have their name in large type,
> eg the SUN
> Others prefer a more subtle masthead, like The Times
>
> If I had to replicate the former, I would undoubtedly put the word SUN
> into an H1 - they care about their brand, and have little or no logo.
>
> For The Times, I would not use an H1 - they believe that their
> reputation speaks for itself.
>
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jen
>>Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:40 AM
>>To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>>Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
>>
>>An  is definitely not for marking up the company logo.
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Bob Schwartz]

I think someone the other day hit the nail on the head and it fits  
with your newspaper analogy.


for the logo
Title



My take on this, is that IT ALL DEPENDS !
Every site is different.
For example: www.calcresult.com does not use a traditional image-based
logo, so the arguments that the site logo is 'just a simple image'  
fails

completely.


Some sites look a bit like a newspaper. Newspapers themselves vary
considerably (in the UK at least.) Some have their name in large type,
eg the SUN
Others prefer a more subtle masthead, like The Times

If I had to replicate the former, I would undoubtedly put the word SUN
into an H1 - they care about their brand, and have little or no logo.

For The Times, I would not use an H1 - they believe that their
reputation speaks for itself.


Regards,
Mike



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jen
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:40 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

An  is definitely not for marking up the company logo.



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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[michael.brockington]

My take on this, is that IT ALL DEPENDS !  
Every site is different. 
For example: www.calcresult.com does not use a traditional image-based
logo, so the arguments that the site logo is 'just a simple image' fails
completely.


Some sites look a bit like a newspaper. Newspapers themselves vary
considerably (in the UK at least.) Some have their name in large type,
eg the SUN
Others prefer a more subtle masthead, like The Times

If I had to replicate the former, I would undoubtedly put the word SUN
into an H1 - they care about their brand, and have little or no logo.

For The Times, I would not use an H1 - they believe that their
reputation speaks for itself.


Regards,
Mike


>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jen
>Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:40 AM
>To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
>
>An  is definitely not for marking up the company logo. 


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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Elizabeth Spiegel]

Hi Jason

 

Part of the problem (and I know I'm biased) is that not enough website
developers/publishers employ editors, whose bread and butter is information
design - how to effectively break up content and provide signposts that help
readers navigate their way through mountains of text.

 

An effective heading tells you something about the content which follows it.
In a well-structured document, a level 1 heading tells me about all the
stuff between it and the next level 1 heading. A logo is more like the title
which often appears as the verso running head in a book: it  reminds you
what book you're reading, but doesn't tell you anything specific about this
chapter/section.

 

Gerry McGovern has written a few times about the undervaluing of content as
exemplified by a development process where the team gets to a few weeks
before launch date and suddenly says "OK, where's the content? All that
stuff that replaces lorem ipsum?"  Much waving of hands and the expectation
that the words will materialise out of thin air.

 

Elizabeth Spiegel

Web editing

topleft

0409 986 158

GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001

www.spiegelweb.com.au

 

 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: Friday, 30 May 2008 8:58 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

 

I am surprised that we are even discussing this topic here.
This issue is mentioned in the last sentence of this blog post:
http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/?p=5
Please follow the link provided in there to W3C site which mentions what <
h1 > is there for.

Kind regards,

Jason
www.flexewebs.com --> see also here where < h1 > appears on the page and how
logo is done.

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Chris Pearce
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Thanks for all the feedback regarding this.

 

I'm actually beginning to think an html image tag would be better suited to
mark-up a company logo and reserving the  for the main page title, this
seems to make more sense to me after giving it more thought. Also most of
the sites I build use CMS's and clients will go ahead and use a  anyway
for the top level heading in the editable area therefore the logical order
of headers is broken. At the end of the day semantics means a lot more to me
than SEO.

 

On a side note I find I have to insert an image tag (for the logo) for the
print version as most clients aren't happy about showing plain text from the
 as we all know that printing background images is turned off by
default.

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Pearce
Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo

 

Hi,

 

For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a . I
just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to
using a html image tag? I believe a  is more semantically correct
however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think.

 

Cheers

 

 


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[jen]

An  is definitely not for marking up the company logo. A logo in  
a banner would go in a div, .  is reserved for the  
semantically correct information for the main heading. Alistapart  
must have it wrong. Actually, looking through their code, they do  
appear to have it wrong. The  tags are odd. When in doubt, see  
what Dan Cederholm at simplebits.com does, or the Happy Cog folks  
( > ). They've never steered me wrong.


j


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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Thierry Koblentz]

>> For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a
. 
>> I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared
to using a html image tag? 
>> I believe a  is more semantically correct however I'd be interested
in seeing 
>> what other people on this list think.
>
> My take is that only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the
h1. As you move through the site, 
> the h1 should shift to the more specific top heading on the page - on a
category/index page it would be that 
> category's name; on a specific content page it should be the headline on
the content.

fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no cover.
People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the home page.


-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Thierry Koblentz]

> I am surprised that we are even discussing this topic here.
> This issue is mentioned in the last sentence of this blog post:
http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/?p=5
> Please follow the link provided in there to W3C site which mentions what <
h1 > is there for.

It's almost Friday, so here goes ;)

I may be wrong, but with the millions of web sites out there
identity/branding is a big deal. If I consider the name of the site being
the most important piece of information in the document, then I have no
problem putting it in a H1.

As a side note, the URL you posted links to a document that does not mention
your company/site name which is not in the TITLE element either, so I think
this explains our different stances ;-)


-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Ben Buchanan]

>
> For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a .
> I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to
> using a html image tag? I believe a  is more semantically correct
> however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think.
>

My take is that only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the
h1. As you move through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific
top heading on the page - on a category/index page it would be that
category's name; on a specific content page it should be the headline on the
content.

On these other pages the logo/name just goes in a div, usually with a
strong. That way, you build a logical structure across the site. Each page
will have a logical h1.

That's the ideal of course. If your system doesn't allow for that sort of
thing, having the logo as the h1 on every page isn't the end of the world,
although you really need to make sure your title and h2 combination is
accurate to make up for it :)

cheers,
Ben

-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Jason Grant]

I am surprised that we are even discussing this topic here.
This issue is mentioned in the last sentence of this blog post:
http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/?p=5
Please follow the link provided in there to W3C site which mentions what <
h1 > is there for.

Kind regards,

Jason
www.flexewebs.com --> see also here where < h1 > appears on the page and how
logo is done.

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Chris Pearce <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Thanks for all the feedback regarding this.
>
>
>
> I'm actually beginning to think an html image tag would be better suited to
> mark-up a company logo and reserving the  for the main page title, this
> seems to make more sense to me after giving it more thought. Also most of
> the sites I build use CMS's and clients will go ahead and use a  anyway
> for the top level heading in the editable area therefore the logical order
> of headers is broken. At the end of the day semantics means a lot more to me
> than SEO.
>
>
>
> On a side note I find I have to insert an image tag (for the logo) for the
> print version as most clients aren't happy about showing plain text from the
>  as we all know that printing background images is turned off by
> default.
>
>
>
> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Chris Pearce
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* [WSG] Marking up company logo
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a .
> I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to
> using a html image tag? I believe a  is more semantically correct
> however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Chris Pearce]

Thanks for all the feedback regarding this.

I'm actually beginning to think an html image tag would be better suited to 
mark-up a company logo and reserving the  for the main page title, this 
seems to make more sense to me after giving it more thought. Also most of the 
sites I build use CMS's and clients will go ahead and use a  anyway for the 
top level heading in the editable area therefore the logical order of headers 
is broken. At the end of the day semantics means a lot more to me than SEO.

On a side note I find I have to insert an image tag (for the logo) for the 
print version as most clients aren't happy about showing plain text from the 
 as we all know that printing background images is turned off by default.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Pearce
Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo

Hi,

For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a . I 
just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to 
using a html image tag? I believe a  is more semantically correct however 
I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think.

Cheers



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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Elizabeth Spiegel]

Hi Chris

 

I'm not convinced that  is semantically correct for a logo (or even
banner).  I would normally expect the  to be similar to the  - it
indicates what the whole page is about (but not the whole site).

 

 

Elizabeth Spiegel

Web editing

topleft

0409 986 158

GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001

www.spiegelweb.com.au

 

 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Pearce
Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo

 

Hi,

 

For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a . I
just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to
using a html image tag? I believe a  is more semantically correct
however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think.

 

Cheers

 

 


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Adam Martin]

I intend too - as of tomorrow I am officially unemployed and working on 
launching my new business www.internetconsultants.com.au (site not even 
close too completion).


Mark Harris wrote:

Adam Martin wrote:



I think if people start think "UO" rather than "SEO" then the answers 
to most questions become a lot clearer - UO is a term I coined just 
the other day - UO = user optimisation.




How excellent! I'm sure we can build a whole consulting industry 
around that!


;-)

cheers

mark


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Mark Harris]

Adam Martin wrote:



I think if people start think "UO" rather than "SEO" then the answers to 
most questions become a lot clearer - UO is a term I coined just the 
other day - UO = user optimisation.




How excellent! I'm sure we can build a whole consulting industry around 
that!


;-)

cheers

mark


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Matt Fellows]

>> Out of curiosity, is a logo  at the top of the page more semantically
>> correct when wrapped in a  than when it's just on it's own (ie. not
>> wrapped in anything other than, say, a 'header' )?

Easy! A  tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text.  If it is
only holding an image, then there is no need for the surrounding 
tag. Some people (including myself)  feel uncomfortable with the 
floating by itself, so wrapping it in a  or something
 is a nice alternative.

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Adam Martin]

I would personally not be using a p tag too hold the logo? Why would you 
want too? you can position as you want without the need for extra 
markup. height="300px" id="logo" /> - that makes it pretty obvious. of course if 
you only have 1 image in the header then you don't need the id either. 
Semantically I don't think it needs to be in any other tags at all.


I think if people start think "UO" rather than "SEO" then the answers to 
most questions become a lot clearer - UO is a term I coined just the 
other day - UO = user optimisation.


Cheers
Adam



Rick Lecoat wrote:

On 29 May 2008, at 05:32, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:


We used to have lots of logos in s too, and after a thorough SEO
discussion we changed that to a .


Out of curiosity, is a logo  at the top of the page more 
semantically correct when wrapped in a  than when it's just on it's 
own (ie. not wrapped in anything other than, say, a 'header' )?


--
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Rick Lecoat]

On 29 May 2008, at 05:32, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:


We used to have lots of logos in s too, and after a thorough SEO
discussion we changed that to a .


Out of curiosity, is a logo  at the top of the page more  
semantically correct when wrapped in a  than when it's just on it's  
own (ie. not wrapped in anything other than, say, a 'header' )?


--
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Anton Babushkin]

I concur.

Having it as a  is a much better way of dealing with it rather than
having it as an image or .

To me its less about SEO and much more about usability. People don't really
care about your company, they're simply after the major headlines. Having a
company logo take up the majority of the real-estate is less user-friendly
and much more spammy. Maybe I am just a minimalist.


On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > The H1 should be used for the most important heading, usually the name
> of the page
>
> I second that.
>
> We used to have lots of logos in s too, and after a thorough SEO
> discussion we changed that to a .
>
> The  now holds the page title.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jens
>
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-- 
- Anton Babushkin


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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Jens-Uwe Korff]

> The H1 should be used for the most important heading, usually the name
of the page

I second that. 

We used to have lots of logos in s too, and after a thorough SEO
discussion we changed that to a .

The  now holds the page title.


Cheers,
 
Jens 

The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is 
or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, 
dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any 
attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of 
it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of 
the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise 
the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. 
Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information 
contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not 
secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents 
of this message or attached files.


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Drew Trusz]

On 5/28/08, Chris Pearce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a . I
> just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to
> using a html image tag? I believe a  is more semantically correct
> however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think.
>

Headers and particularly h1 headers are not "the" most important item
on a page. Headers introduce sections of which there can be more than
one on a page and which can run more than one page. This is what the
html 4.01 specs say about headers:

"A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it
introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for
example, to construct a table of contents for a document
automatically.

There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important
and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important
headings in larger fonts than less important ones.

The following example shows how to use the DIV element to associate a
heading with the document section that follows it. Doing so allows you
to define a style for the section (color the background, set the font,
etc.) with style sheets.


Forest elephants
In this section, we discuss the lesser known forest elephants.
...this section continues...

Habitat
Forest elephants do not live in trees but among them.
...this subsection continues...

"
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H1

HTML5 is perhaps even clearer on the sectioning nature of headings
since it also calls for the specific use of section tags to work with
headers:

"The h1–h6 elements and the header element are headings.

The first element of heading content in an element of sectioning
content gives the header for that section. Subsequent headers of equal
or higher rank start new (implied) sections, headers of lower rank
start subsections that are part of the previous one.

Sectioning content elements are always considered subsections of their
nearest ancestor element of sectioning content, regardless of what
implied sections other headings may have created.

Certain elements are said to be sectioning roots, including blockquote
and td elements. These elements can have their own outlines, but the
sections and headers inside these elements do not contribute to the
outlines of their ancestors. "
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#headings0

Discussions of sections and articles and outlines seem to further
confirm that headers are for sections not sites. Site headers are
discussed under articles and outlines which include and seem to
superceed headers in 5.

In other words, it seems completely plausible to have an h1 for the
logo and an h1 for the page topic if both of those seem to the author
to constitute separate sections in 4.01 and obligatory in 5.


drew


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Ian Chamberlain]

I fumbled with this for a while Chris but decided against it on the grounds 
that   denotes the most important content on the page; the site ownerthe 
logo may think that his or her logo is the most important element on the page,  
I doubt any site users would agree.

I know we have to be pragmatic at times (clients pay wages etc) but I think the 
semantic argument should win this one. 

In most cases my h1s' contain much the same content as the page titles, 
bringing the added benefit that robots seem to like this approach; a point I 
make to clients if they ask when I explain how the semantic design can help 
them avoid SEO costs.

Regards

Ian


  - Original Message - 
  From: Chris Pearce 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 8:49 AM
  Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo


  Hi,

   

  For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a . I 
just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to 
using a html image tag? I believe a  is more semantically correct however 
I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think.

   

  Cheers

   

   


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Robert O'Rourke]

Chris Pearce wrote:


Hi,

For a few years now I’ve been marking up a clients company logo as a 
. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this 
compared to using a html image tag? I believe a  is more 
semantically correct however I’d be interested in seeing what other 
people on this list think.


Cheers



Hi Chris,

I've often asked myself whether h1 was the best thing to use, and I used 
it primarily because it was the first thing to appear on the page and I 
wanted my headings in a logical order.


I now use the hcard microformat to mark up the company name and logo 
because it offers some decent semantic class names and can be exported eg.




http://www.example.com";>

Company Name





You can then extend the vcard using the include-pattern elsewhere on the 
page such as the footer or just leave it as a simple vcard.


http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

Regards,
Rob


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[James]

Hi Chris,

Here's a blog post I wrote a while ago with my view: 
http://www.digitaloverload.co.uk/blog/2007/11/23/more-semantic-logos/


James.

Chris Pearce wrote:


Hi,

For a few years now I’ve been marking up a clients company logo as a 
. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this 
compared to using a html image tag? I believe a  is more 
semantically correct however I’d be interested in seeing what other 
people on this list think.





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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Matthew Pennell]

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Adam Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I personally think that marking up the logo with an h1 tag is a bad idea -
> is the company name really the most important aspect of every page? You
> should reserve the h1 for the most important title on the page.

Exactly.

The H1 should be used for the most important heading, usually the name
of the page: About Us, or the name of the product or whatever. The
company logo should be an IMG (so that it appears when printed) with
suitable alt text.

I don't see that there is any SEO benefit to marking up the logo with
an H1 - if your site doesn't rank for searches on your own company
name, you've got bigger problems.

-- 

- Matthew


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Lea de Groot]

On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:49:21 +1000, Chris Pearce wrote:
> For a few years now I’ve been marking up a clients company logo as a 
> . I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do 
> this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a  is more 
> semantically correct however I’d be interested in seeing what other 
> people on this list think.

There are many discussions of this one around. Here's one:
http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2004/03/quick_quiz_h1s_and_logos/
There are lots more :)

My take is that I will put the logo in the h1 element when the logo is 
the most important thing on the page ("most important" isn't quite what 
I mean, but its as close as I am getting at 6PM :))
This is usually the homepage.
So other pages don't get a h1 for the logo, the title of that page gets 
the h1 instead.

I usually end up with markup like this:


Possibly other stuff too


Where XX is ether H1 or div depending on the page.
This lets me write a set of rules like:
#mast { ... }
#mast #logo { ... }
so all pages are the same, whether the logo has the h1 or not

Hope it helps

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems
Brisbane, Australia

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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Tony McNulty]

Hi Chris,

I've always done that too, it's always seemed to make the most sense here too. 
I've seen many sites that use image tags instead and do concede the point that 
without css, the logo could still be considered as worthy showing. 

I wonder if there would be a good middle ground with this. 

Cheers,

Tony
-Original Message-
From: Chris Pearce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:49:21 
To:"wsg@webstandardsgroup.org" 
Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo


Hi, 
  
For a few years now I’ve been marking up a clients company logo as a . I 
just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to 
using a html image tag? I believe a  is more semantically correct however 
I’d be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. 
  
Cheers 
  
  
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Adam Martin]

I personally think that marking up the logo with an h1 tag is a bad idea 
- is the company name really the most important aspect of every page? 
You should reserve the h1 for the most important title on the page.

Cheers
Adam

Chris Pearce wrote:


Hi,

For a few years now I’ve been marking up a clients company logo as a 
. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this 
compared to using a html image tag? I believe a  is more 
semantically correct however I’d be interested in seeing what other 
people on this list think.


Cheers


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[WSG] Marking up company logo

[Chris Pearce]

Hi,

For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a . I 
just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to 
using a html image tag? I believe a  is more semantically correct however 
I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think.

Cheers




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