Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Sunday January 05 2020 17:09:39 Don MacQueen wrote:

>[...] (Even some of their iOS apps have shifted in downward directions as part 
>ot fhis shift.)

Is it telling that one of their latest ads for the (sic) iPhone apparently saw 
a need to underline that it's a phone? :)

>I think it’s fair to say that without the efforts of the open source 
>community, a Mac would not have stayed on my desk for all those years.

More than fair; the actual OS is based on open source, and is open source 
itself for a large part.
And to be fair, Apple have given back to the OS community amply.

BTW, what about PureDarwin in all this? Probably of little interest?

R
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Don MacQueen via X11-users]

It became clear some time ago (10 years?) that Apple had abandonded the 
scientific and technical markets. They (first) shifted their focus to what I 
would call the teeny-bopper market — you know — people who go around waving 
their arrms in the air as they danced crazily with earbuds in their ears, 
composing beautifully formatted html emails with lots of photos in them to all 
their social media friends, and to whom having just the right playlist is oh, 
so, essential. (hopefully I’m not insulting anyone here!) And (later) as 
someone here mentioned, to making MacOS look like iOS. For evidence, look no 
further than the discontiunation of iWeb and Aperture, the spinning off of X 
Windows support, the disapperance of science and technology from their website, 
the burying of the interface for mounting NFS exports, and so on. (Even some of 
their iOS apps have shifted in downward directions as part ot fhis shift.)

I had a Mac on my desk at work for something like 31 years (until my recent 
retirement), starting with the Mac SE ~1987. I was never so happy as when OS X 
came out and I could drop down to one computer on my desk, since OS X played 
nice in the Linux world (though for me it was Solaris at that time). X Win 
support was essential to my computing environment, especially for doing real 
work on remote computers. Neither Mac OS nor Windows options for remote 
computing have ever been as good as X Win, in my experience and opinion. Even 
something as simple focus-follows-mouse makes a big difference to me.

Were I still working, my fallback position would be a Linux box on my desk with 
Windows running in a VM. Because, outside my technical work, almost everything 
I did on a computer could be done with MS Office, and for Office, it hardly 
matters which OS one uses.

I think it’s fair to say that without the efforts of the open source community, 
a Mac would not have stayed on my desk for all those years.

Don MacQueen
m...@comcast.net



> On Jan 5, 2020, at 12:24 PM, René J.V. Bertin via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Sunday January 05 2020 11:17:16 Christopher Bort wrote:
> 
>> many years. I have a linux VM in VirtualBox that works quite 
>> nicely for running any X11 apps I need or want. It may be a 
>> 'heavyweight' solution, but one of the reasons I did it 
>> originally was to see if I could comfortably do all of my day to 
>> day computing tasks under linux. It turns out that I can and I 
>> actually spend a fair amount of time in the linux VM. I have a 
> 
> I have done this too, years ago now, to see how a properly upgradable Linux 
> distro would do as a desktop OS (my main workhorse in the late 90s was a 
> Linux rig without a DE environment at all). If memory serves me well I 
> discovered on that VM that the KDE4 environment was actually very similar to 
> the earlier OS X versions (up till 10.4 probably), so I quickly replaced the 
> VM with the cheapest netbook that could run 8Gb. I've since replaced that 
> one, but these have been my beater machines, and I still use the KDe4/Plasma4 
> DE (but with lots of self-built KF5 apps). Sadly the Plasma5 DE seems to be 
> aligning with the examples set by Apple and Microsoft (but still without 
> instilling the idea you're trespassing on your own computer).
> 
> My Mac is a MBP 8.1 (early 2011 13" with 2.7Ghz i7) which is still plenty 
> fast for most of what I do nowadays, it now has 16Gb (bought with 4), a 1Tb 
> SSHD, Thunderbolt dock so a few USB3 ports, a nice 22" external screen and 
> runs 10.9.5 because even now I don't really feel an urge to upgrade (partly 
> because I managed to get Qt 5.9.8 to build there, *with* the X11 backend if 
> you please :)). Me too I don't plan on replacing it with another Mac, not 
> with a new one at least. Too bad for that expensive Thunderbolt dock...
> 
> In fact, since we adopted a puppy in september I'm spending most of my time 
> downstairs, working on the Linux system instead of on the Mac...
> 
> R.
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Sunday January 05 2020 11:17:16 Christopher Bort wrote:

>many years. I have a linux VM in VirtualBox that works quite 
>nicely for running any X11 apps I need or want. It may be a 
>'heavyweight' solution, but one of the reasons I did it 
>originally was to see if I could comfortably do all of my day to 
>day computing tasks under linux. It turns out that I can and I 
>actually spend a fair amount of time in the linux VM. I have a 

I have done this too, years ago now, to see how a properly upgradable Linux 
distro would do as a desktop OS (my main workhorse in the late 90s was a Linux 
rig without a DE environment at all). If memory serves me well I discovered on 
that VM that the KDE4 environment was actually very similar to the earlier OS X 
versions (up till 10.4 probably), so I quickly replaced the VM with the 
cheapest netbook that could run 8Gb. I've since replaced that one, but these 
have been my beater machines, and I still use the KDe4/Plasma4 DE (but with 
lots of self-built KF5 apps). Sadly the Plasma5 DE seems to be aligning with 
the examples set by Apple and Microsoft (but still without instilling the idea 
you're trespassing on your own computer).

My Mac is a MBP 8.1 (early 2011 13" with 2.7Ghz i7) which is still plenty fast 
for most of what I do nowadays, it now has 16Gb (bought with 4), a 1Tb SSHD, 
Thunderbolt dock so a few USB3 ports, a nice 22" external screen and runs 
10.9.5 because even now I don't really feel an urge to upgrade (partly because 
I managed to get Qt 5.9.8 to build there, *with* the X11 backend if you please 
:)). Me too I don't plan on replacing it with another Mac, not with a new one 
at least. Too bad for that expensive Thunderbolt dock...

In fact, since we adopted a puppy in september I'm spending most of my time 
downstairs, working on the Linux system instead of on the Mac...

R.
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Christopher Bort via X11-users]

On 1/5/20 at 4:06 AM, x11-users@lists.apple.com (René J.V. 
Bertin via X11-users) wrote:


Indeed, every time that I read the news about Apple's 
continued success in the marketplace (just look at their 
awesome stock prices, for instance), I am wondering if it is 
worthwhile for the X11 community to (for instance) send a 
petition to Apple directly, to continue

[...]
(I realize that I sound very naive here, and I don't want to 
sound that way.  I've been a committed Apple user since I was 
a child in the early 1980's.)


This would make sense if Apple still saw the Mac as an actual Unix
workstation for serious work beyond the classical roles Macs already
had under the old, pre-Darwin Mac OS. I was a committed Apple user too
(though I had a Mac IIx under A/UX for doing my thesis), dropped out
for a while during Jobs's absence, got back onboard with Mac OS X 10.2
. But Apple haven't been making computers I'm willing (or even able)
to buy for years now, and have started taking wrong turns (for me)
since 10.11 . The latest novelties really aim at locking us out of our
own computers IMHO, so yeah, I think it's pretty naive to think that
petitioning Apple for bringing back an official X11 will have any
interest.

Requests to implement missing system calls to make porting Wayland
easier might stand more chance but more so if they're not used only by
Wayland. Let's not forget that the platform no longer has the same
need to run legacy/cross-platform X11 applications, and since good,
free VNC software is now readily available there's no longer a real
need for being able to act as an X11 display server either.


What he said. I too have been a happily dedicated 
Apple/Macintosh user since the original 128K Mac days. However, 
I've become increasingly disillusioned with Apple over the last 
few iterations of Mac OS. They are more and more focused on 
making the Mac experienced line up with the iOS experience and 
relieving users of the burden of having anything to do with the 
actual workings of the OS. There's much more that can be said 
about that, but suffice to say for this discussion that it tends 
to leave X11|*nix users out in the cold.


For myself, I haven't run xorg-server or Xquartz in OS X for 
many years. I have a linux VM in VirtualBox that works quite 
nicely for running any X11 apps I need or want. It may be a 
'heavyweight' solution, but one of the reasons I did it 
originally was to see if I could comfortably do all of my day to 
day computing tasks under linux. It turns out that I can and I 
actually spend a fair amount of time in the linux VM. I have a 
mid-2012 MacBook Pro running High Sierra, which I haven't been 
able to upgrade successfully to Mojave, let alone to Catalina. 
When it finally gives up the ghost (probably not any time soon), 
I will more than likely replace it with a less expensive PC 
laptop on which I can run my linux distro of choice.

--
Christopher Bort


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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Filhol Alain via X11-users]

Dear Richard and all of you,

I am a scientist too and I ported to macOS some widely used packages such as 
> (*)
The original code is for Windows and is based on Winteracter 
>.
Unfortunately enough Winteracter for Linux/macOS is based on OpenMotif/X11 
instead of QT. 

While Apple products are very popular in the scientific community, it is true 
that Apple does not show much concern about it nowadays.
May be the modern Apple staff is not even aware that this community exists 
since they no longer have any direct interaction with it as they used to have 
in the past (e.g. program ARTS (Apple Research and Technology Support program) 
2009, program MIP (Macintosh Integration Program —> free loan of Apple 
hardware) 2010, etc.) Now the interaction is only through resellers such as 
Econocom in France.
However, may be we should initiate a group action towards people such as 
Michel Sutter mailto:sutte...@apple.com>>
Senior Partnership Manager Apple
Worldwide Developer Relations 1 Hanover Street, mail stop 741-RE London 
W1S 1YS, UK
He is supposed to be an interface between developers and Apple.

https://mastodon.technology/@bugaevc/101603518023241841 

We shall contact him, shall we ?

All the best
Alain

(*) I succeeded to notarise both the X11 based application and its DMG but I 
never succeeded to publish to the App Store.


> On 5 Jan 2020, at 10:05, Ward, Mark Daniel via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dear Richard,
> 
> That is really helpful information.  Thank you!  Nonetheless, there are 
> probably quite a few Mac OS X users who choose not to use MacPorts (nor 
> Homebrew nor any other package manager).  I do build some software from 
> source, and I understand that there must be myriad dependencies with 
> X11.  (Yes, I have spent some time reading about such dependencies and 
> the history of the whole X11 saga on Mac OS X.  Pretty fascinating!)
> 
> I guess I can't help but wonder (out loud here) if some dedicated 
> soul(s) on this email list would pick up the work of continuing to make 
> an installation .dmg file that matches the convenience of the XQuartz 
> installer.  Otherwise, realistically speaking, when this .dmg installer 
> goes away, we will (admittedly) lose quite a few users from this X11 
> community (which is perhaps already a small community).
> 
> Speaking for myself (I am a professor whose research relies heavily on 
> scientific computing), I would feel very sad if I didn't have X11 on my 
> Mac anymore.
> 
> I don't know any of the human beings on the X.Org Foundation's Board of 
> Directors:
> 
> https://www.x.org/wiki/BoardOfDirectors/
> 
> but I'm guessing that some of them might subscribe to this list. There 
> must be some discussion (for instance) of the path ahead, for those of 
> us on Mac OS X who rely X11.  For instance, I'm asking a very naive 
> question here, but is it possible for Mac OS X folks to somehow take 
> advantage of the continued activity in the Wayland / Weston community?  
> This community seems to be very active!
> 
> https://wayland.freedesktop.org/releases.html
> 
> Please forgive me for asking such questions here.  I'm not cognizant of 
> any behind-the-scenes politics or things like that and there might 
> be a discussion of this elsewhere.  I just don't understand how Mac OS X 
> users fit into the continued development from the Wayland / Weston 
> community, but it seems relevant to discuss, if the server provided by 
> X.Org will go away.  I just want to better understand the path forward.
> 
> Warmest regards,
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> On 1/4/20 11:15 PM, Richard L. Hamilton via X11-users wrote:
>> The server in xquartz.org 2.7.11 is "xorg-server 1.18.4 plus other patches"
>> 
>> It's a repackaging of what also gets built for MacPorts, but on MacPorts, 
>> xorg-server is 1.20.6.
>> 
>> In other words, the xquartz.org package doesn't get updated nearly as often 
>> as MacPorts. It is of course easier to install, since you just need one 
>> package vs installing MacPorts base, and then the xorg-server port  (which 
>> will automatically install all its dependencies) - and maybe other MacPorts 
>> ports as well, if anything is missing then. Some details change, and there's 
>> an X11 app vs the Xquartz app; but aside from various directory and file 
>> name differences (since one could install both, although would usually just 
>> have the launch daemon and launch agent for one enabled), the principles are 
>> pretty much the same.
>> 
>> Yes, according to reports, the x.org server itself will eventually fade 
>> away. But there remain more active updates of it for macOS than what's on 
>> xquartz.org.
>> 
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Sunday January 05 2020 05:11:02 Richard L. Hamilton wrote:

>One could always run one's preferred Linux distro under VirtualBox on macOS, 
>to have assured access to one's desired apps. That wouldn't help much for 
>really hardware-intensive graphics of course (a VM likely having at best 
>limited access to hardware acceleration), but for most others, should work, 
>even if not particularly conveniently.

I meant to add to a previous message that one can find PCs that will run a 
recent Linux distro plenty fast enough for a fraction of the price of a Mac. 
Even if the X11 server goes the way of the dodo, libX11, libxcb etc. will 
(hopefully) see continued development as long as there is demand for running 
X11 apps (and those can display via a Wayland compositor). Even those 
client-side layers have limitations on Mac that could be improved, making it 
possible to do the heavy-lifting on a Mac and the displaying on a remote X11 
terminal just like that was the norm at some point. (I'm assuming here that 
on-GPU computing doesn't go through X11 APIs.)

R.
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Sunday January 05 2020 09:12:16 Ward, Mark Daniel wrote:

Hi,

>long) email a few minutes ago.  Thank you for asking this!  I don't want 
>X11 usage to get relegated to (only) MacPorts users, because lots of us 
>refuse to use MacPorts or Homebrew or any other package manager.

Nothing stops you from building everything by hand using the same recipes and 
patches (I started using MacPorts to stop having to do that, and have a way to 
do automatised reproducible builds).

>Indeed, every time that I read the news about Apple's continued success 
>in the marketplace (just look at their awesome stock prices, for 
>instance), I am wondering if it is worthwhile for the X11 community to 
>(for instance) send a petition to Apple directly, to continue 
[...]
>(I realize that I sound very naive here, and I don't want to sound that 
>way.  I've been a committed Apple user since I was a child in the early 
>1980's.)

This would make sense if Apple still saw the Mac as an actual Unix workstation 
for serious work beyond the classical roles Macs already had under the old, 
pre-Darwin Mac OS. I was a committed Apple user too (though I had a Mac IIx 
under A/UX for doing my thesis), dropped out for a while during Jobs's absence, 
got back onboard with Mac OS X 10.2 . But Apple haven't been making computers 
I'm willing (or even able) to buy for years now, and have started taking wrong 
turns (for me) since 10.11 . The latest novelties really aim at locking us out 
of our own computers IMHO, so yeah, I think it's pretty naive to think that 
petitioning Apple for bringing back an official X11 will have any interest.

Requests to implement missing system calls to make porting Wayland easier might 
stand more chance but more so if they're not used only by Wayland. Let's not 
forget that the platform no longer has the same need to run 
legacy/cross-platform X11 applications, and since good, free VNC software is 
now readily available there's no longer a real need for being able to act as an 
X11 display server either.

R
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Richard L. Hamilton via X11-users]

Such interests may well be under exploration already outside of any obvious 
organization's activity (even if such explorations lack manpower resources):
https://mastodon.technology/@bugaevc/101603518023241841 


Sadly I haven't found if he made his code available anywhere (I  haven't 
actually asked, and prefer enjoying project-free retirement anyway!).

One could always run one's preferred Linux distro under VirtualBox on macOS, to 
have assured access to one's desired apps. That wouldn't help much for really 
hardware-intensive graphics of course (a VM likely having at best limited 
access to hardware acceleration), but for most others, should work, even if not 
particularly conveniently.

> On Jan 5, 2020, at 04:05, Ward, Mark Daniel  wrote:
> 
> I don't know any of the human beings on the X.Org  
> Foundation's Board of 
> Directors:
> 
> https://www.x.org/wiki/BoardOfDirectors/ 
> 
> 
> but I'm guessing that some of them might subscribe to this list. There 
> must be some discussion (for instance) of the path ahead, for those of 
> us on Mac OS X who rely X11.  For instance, I'm asking a very naive 
> question here, but is it possible for Mac OS X folks to somehow take 
> advantage of the continued activity in the Wayland / Weston community?  
> This community seems to be very active!
> 
> https://wayland.freedesktop.org/releases.html 
> 
> 
> Please forgive me for asking such questions here.  I'm not cognizant of 
> any behind-the-scenes politics or things like that and there might 
> be a discussion of this elsewhere.  I just don't understand how Mac OS X 
> users fit into the continued development from the Wayland / Weston 
> community, but it seems relevant to discuss, if the server provided by 
> X.Org  will go away.  I just want to better understand the 
> path forward.

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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Gunning, James (Energy, Clayton North) via X11-users]

Hi Rene, All,
 That's pretty interesting. Perhaps, like others, the reason I like X11 
is the huge legacy of
scientific code that depends on it, and importantly, network transparency. I 
have  a strong hunch the
science/eng community will go over to wayland only when it offers an Xlib 
substitute with all these features.
There's way too much good legacy code that nobody wants to port - we just want 
an environment where it can be
compiled and run the standard way...
Cheers
James.

James Gunning
CSIRO
Clayton, Vic., Australia


From: X11-users  on 
behalf of René J.V. Bertin via X11-users 
Sent: Sunday, 5 January 2020 7:39 PM
To: x11-users@lists.apple.com 
Cc: Jeremy Huddleston 
Subject: Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

On Sunday January 05 2020 01:44:19 Gunning, James wrote:

>> https://www.macg.co/macos/2019/07/xorg-bientot-abandonne-et-avec-lui-x11-sur-mac-106945
>X.Org, the free implementation of the X11 windowing system will soon enter 
>"maintenance mode". Driven by Red Hat, the Gnome desktop environment ditched 
>X.Org in favor of Wayland, which is set to become the primary display server 
>for GNU / Linux distributions. "Once we're done," says director of Red Hat 
>Enterprise Linux (RHEL) Desktop, "we plan to put X.Org into maintenance mode 
>soon enough."

That's a very Linux-centric situation, as Wayland has rather strong links to 
Linux-specifics at the moment. I haven't looked at FreeBSD for a while to see 
if they have a good, efficient adaptation (and how that's linked to newer 
versions of their kernel). But even then, FreeBSD isn't the only other Unix 
implementation out there, and X.Org is not a project that cannot be forked even 
if the current official repo goes into feature freeze.

Anyway, let's hope that this is a wake-up call so that some people start 
working on porting the Wayland libraries so that Qt's Wayland can be built and 
possibly even KDE's KWin with its Wayland compositor implementation (how the 
KDE people would like that! ;) ).

As to running the latest "official" XQuartz: I stopped doing that even on 10.9 
because it has a tendency to crash on startup and randomly later on, on my 
bi-head system where I routinely 1) use FUS to go the login screen which allows 
me to 2) disconnect the external screen without causing a desktop rearrangement 
then 3) suspend the machine and finally 4) potentially connect a different 
external after waking it in a different location.
I'm now running my own take on MacPorts' port:xorg-server-devel, v1.20.1 
(https://github.com/RJVB/macstrop/tree/master/x11/xorg-server-devel) and that 
works well enough; combined with a patched Mesa 
(https://github.com/RJVB/macstrop/tree/master/x11/mesa) that has some support 
for software EGL I can even run remote applications that do fancier things (or 
KF5 applications that simply crash when forced to use GLX).

Jeremy: dunno if you're still on this list or otherwise felt us treading on 
your tail ... happy newyear! :)

R.
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Ward, Mark Daniel via X11-users]

Dear René,

I love what you said:  "let's hope that this is a wake-up call so that 
some people start working on porting the Wayland libraries". That's a 
very nice way to summarize what I wanted to say in my (admittedly too 
long) email a few minutes ago.  Thank you for asking this!  I don't want 
X11 usage to get relegated to (only) MacPorts users, because lots of us 
refuse to use MacPorts or Homebrew or any other package manager.

A wake-up call would be wonderful.

Indeed, every time that I read the news about Apple's continued success 
in the marketplace (just look at their awesome stock prices, for 
instance), I am wondering if it is worthwhile for the X11 community to 
(for instance) send a petition to Apple directly, to continue 
development of an X11 installer on the Mac.  This would probably be easy 
for Apple to achieve, if they dedicated just a few people's time/effort 
to such a project.  Right?

(I realize that I sound very naive here, and I don't want to sound that 
way.  I've been a committed Apple user since I was a child in the early 
1980's.)

Best wishes,

Mark


On 1/5/20 3:39 AM, René J.V. Bertin via X11-users wrote:
> On Sunday January 05 2020 01:44:19 Gunning, James wrote:
>
>>> https://www.macg.co/macos/2019/07/xorg-bientot-abandonne-et-avec-lui-x11-sur-mac-106945
>> X.Org, the free implementation of the X11 windowing system will soon enter 
>> "maintenance mode". Driven by Red Hat, the Gnome desktop environment ditched 
>> X.Org in favor of Wayland, which is set to become the primary display server 
>> for GNU / Linux distributions. "Once we're done," says director of Red Hat 
>> Enterprise Linux (RHEL) Desktop, "we plan to put X.Org into maintenance mode 
>> soon enough."
> That's a very Linux-centric situation, as Wayland has rather strong links to 
> Linux-specifics at the moment. I haven't looked at FreeBSD for a while to see 
> if they have a good, efficient adaptation (and how that's linked to newer 
> versions of their kernel). But even then, FreeBSD isn't the only other Unix 
> implementation out there, and X.Org is not a project that cannot be forked 
> even if the current official repo goes into feature freeze.
>
> Anyway, let's hope that this is a wake-up call so that some people start 
> working on porting the Wayland libraries so that Qt's Wayland can be built 
> and possibly even KDE's KWin with its Wayland compositor implementation (how 
> the KDE people would like that! ;) ).
>
> As to running the latest "official" XQuartz: I stopped doing that even on 
> 10.9 because it has a tendency to crash on startup and randomly later on, on 
> my bi-head system where I routinely 1) use FUS to go the login screen which 
> allows me to 2) disconnect the external screen without causing a desktop 
> rearrangement then 3) suspend the machine and finally 4) potentially connect 
> a different external after waking it in a different location.
> I'm now running my own take on MacPorts' port:xorg-server-devel, v1.20.1 
> (https://github.com/RJVB/macstrop/tree/master/x11/xorg-server-devel) and that 
> works well enough; combined with a patched Mesa 
> (https://github.com/RJVB/macstrop/tree/master/x11/mesa) that has some support 
> for software EGL I can even run remote applications that do fancier things 
> (or KF5 applications that simply crash when forced to use GLX).
>
> Jeremy: dunno if you're still on this list or otherwise felt us treading on 
> your tail ... happy newyear! :)
>
> R.
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Ward, Mark Daniel via X11-users]

Dear Richard,

That is really helpful information.  Thank you!  Nonetheless, there are 
probably quite a few Mac OS X users who choose not to use MacPorts (nor 
Homebrew nor any other package manager).  I do build some software from 
source, and I understand that there must be myriad dependencies with 
X11.  (Yes, I have spent some time reading about such dependencies and 
the history of the whole X11 saga on Mac OS X.  Pretty fascinating!)

I guess I can't help but wonder (out loud here) if some dedicated 
soul(s) on this email list would pick up the work of continuing to make 
an installation .dmg file that matches the convenience of the XQuartz 
installer.  Otherwise, realistically speaking, when this .dmg installer 
goes away, we will (admittedly) lose quite a few users from this X11 
community (which is perhaps already a small community).

Speaking for myself (I am a professor whose research relies heavily on 
scientific computing), I would feel very sad if I didn't have X11 on my 
Mac anymore.

I don't know any of the human beings on the X.Org Foundation's Board of 
Directors:

https://www.x.org/wiki/BoardOfDirectors/

but I'm guessing that some of them might subscribe to this list. There 
must be some discussion (for instance) of the path ahead, for those of 
us on Mac OS X who rely X11.  For instance, I'm asking a very naive 
question here, but is it possible for Mac OS X folks to somehow take 
advantage of the continued activity in the Wayland / Weston community?  
This community seems to be very active!

https://wayland.freedesktop.org/releases.html

Please forgive me for asking such questions here.  I'm not cognizant of 
any behind-the-scenes politics or things like that and there might 
be a discussion of this elsewhere.  I just don't understand how Mac OS X 
users fit into the continued development from the Wayland / Weston 
community, but it seems relevant to discuss, if the server provided by 
X.Org will go away.  I just want to better understand the path forward.

Warmest regards,

Mark


On 1/4/20 11:15 PM, Richard L. Hamilton via X11-users wrote:
> The server in xquartz.org 2.7.11 is "xorg-server 1.18.4 plus other patches"
>
> It's a repackaging of what also gets built for MacPorts, but on MacPorts, 
> xorg-server is 1.20.6.
>
> In other words, the xquartz.org package doesn't get updated nearly as often 
> as MacPorts. It is of course easier to install, since you just need one 
> package vs installing MacPorts base, and then the xorg-server port  (which 
> will automatically install all its dependencies) - and maybe other MacPorts 
> ports as well, if anything is missing then. Some details change, and there's 
> an X11 app vs the Xquartz app; but aside from various directory and file name 
> differences (since one could install both, although would usually just have 
> the launch daemon and launch agent for one enabled), the principles are 
> pretty much the same.
>
> Yes, according to reports, the x.org server itself will eventually fade away. 
> But there remain more active updates of it for macOS than what's on 
> xquartz.org.
>
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Sunday January 05 2020 01:44:19 Gunning, James wrote:

>> https://www.macg.co/macos/2019/07/xorg-bientot-abandonne-et-avec-lui-x11-sur-mac-106945
>X.Org, the free implementation of the X11 windowing system will soon enter 
>"maintenance mode". Driven by Red Hat, the Gnome desktop environment ditched 
>X.Org in favor of Wayland, which is set to become the primary display server 
>for GNU / Linux distributions. "Once we're done," says director of Red Hat 
>Enterprise Linux (RHEL) Desktop, "we plan to put X.Org into maintenance mode 
>soon enough."

That's a very Linux-centric situation, as Wayland has rather strong links to 
Linux-specifics at the moment. I haven't looked at FreeBSD for a while to see 
if they have a good, efficient adaptation (and how that's linked to newer 
versions of their kernel). But even then, FreeBSD isn't the only other Unix 
implementation out there, and X.Org is not a project that cannot be forked even 
if the current official repo goes into feature freeze.

Anyway, let's hope that this is a wake-up call so that some people start 
working on porting the Wayland libraries so that Qt's Wayland can be built and 
possibly even KDE's KWin with its Wayland compositor implementation (how the 
KDE people would like that! ;) ).

As to running the latest "official" XQuartz: I stopped doing that even on 10.9 
because it has a tendency to crash on startup and randomly later on, on my 
bi-head system where I routinely 1) use FUS to go the login screen which allows 
me to 2) disconnect the external screen without causing a desktop rearrangement 
then 3) suspend the machine and finally 4) potentially connect a different 
external after waking it in a different location.
I'm now running my own take on MacPorts' port:xorg-server-devel, v1.20.1 
(https://github.com/RJVB/macstrop/tree/master/x11/xorg-server-devel) and that 
works well enough; combined with a patched Mesa 
(https://github.com/RJVB/macstrop/tree/master/x11/mesa) that has some support 
for software EGL I can even run remote applications that do fancier things (or 
KF5 applications that simply crash when forced to use GLX).

Jeremy: dunno if you're still on this list or otherwise felt us treading on 
your tail ... happy newyear! :)

R.
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Richard L. Hamilton via X11-users]

The server in xquartz.org 2.7.11 is "xorg-server 1.18.4 plus other patches"

It's a repackaging of what also gets built for MacPorts, but on MacPorts, 
xorg-server is 1.20.6.

In other words, the xquartz.org package doesn't get updated nearly as often as 
MacPorts. It is of course easier to install, since you just need one package vs 
installing MacPorts base, and then the xorg-server port  (which will 
automatically install all its dependencies) - and maybe other MacPorts ports as 
well, if anything is missing then. Some details change, and there's an X11 app 
vs the Xquartz app; but aside from various directory and file name differences 
(since one could install both, although would usually just have the launch 
daemon and launch agent for one enabled), the principles are pretty much the 
same.

Yes, according to reports, the x.org server itself will eventually fade away. 
But there remain more active updates of it for macOS than what's on xquartz.org.

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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Gunning, James (Energy, Clayton North) via X11-users]

All,

A hack google translate is:

X.Org, the free implementation of the X11 windowing system will soon enter 
"maintenance mode". Driven by Red Hat, the Gnome desktop environment ditched 
X.Org in favor of Wayland, which is set to become the primary display server 
for GNU / Linux distributions. "Once we're done," says director of Red Hat 
Enterprise Linux (RHEL) Desktop, "we plan to put X.Org into maintenance mode 
soon enough."

This decision
will affect macOS, which supports X.Org through the XQuartz project. This 
framework contributed to the success of Mac OS X: by making the link between 
X11 and Quartz, it also made the link between the open source world and that of 
Apple, and established Mac OS X against such a powerful UNIX system. than 
familiar. Many scientific applications, the Gimp editor, or the Wine 
compatibility layer, used XQuartz to run on Mac.

>From Mac OS X Jaguar to Mac OS X Tiger, XQuartz used the free XFree86 
>implementation, before switching to X.Org in Mac OS X Leopard. From OS X 
>Mountain Lion, however, XQuartz is no longer integrated into the system, but 
>must now be downloaded separately. If it is still maintained, it is based on 
>old technologies that are expected to disappear more or less quickly, and does 
>not support Retina displays.

"X.Org is mainly maintained by [Red Hat]," says Christian Schaller, "It is 
unlikely that a major new version will be released once we are no longer paying 
attention. ". "We will keep an eye on it [...] at least until the end of RHEL 
8's life [Editor's note: in 2029]," added the director of RHEL Desktop, while 
inviting GNU / Linux developers to switch to Wayland.

What will it change on Mac? Probably not much. A few apps still request 
XQuartz, but Gimp and Wine have abandoned it for years. By abandoning X11 and 
XQuartz to better focus on its own technologies, Apple has made it easier to 
adapt. Unless there is a surprise, XQuartz should bow out at the same time as 
X.Org.



James Gunning
CSIRO
Clayton, Vic., Australia


From: X11-users  on 
behalf of Mick Mueck via X11-users 
Sent: Sunday, 5 January 2020 12:01 PM
To: fil...@ill.fr 
Cc: X11-users@lists.apple.com 
Subject: Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

G'Day Alain,

Is there an English version of that website? I've just assumed for years now 
that X11 is either effectively abandoned or on below-minimum life support. So 
sad...

Regards,

Mick


On 2020.0104, at 19:40, Filhol Alain via X11-users 
mailto:x11-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:

I thought it might be a good time to ask whether there will ever be an update 
for XQuartz?  (I really hope so!)
Here the answer:
<https://www.macg.co/macos/2019/07/xorg-bientot-abandonne-et-avec-lui-x11-sur-mac-106945>
Alain



On 5 Jan 2020, at 00:30, Ward, Mark Daniel via X11-users 
mailto:x11-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:

I use XQuartz 2.7.11 daily too, now with Catalina... but I worry that it
hasn't been updated since 2016.

Since there has been a flurry of emails on this email list in the last
few days, I thought it might be a good time to ask whether there will
ever be an update for XQuartz?  (I really hope so!)

Warmest regards,

Mark Daniel Ward, Ph.D.

Director of The Data Mine
Purdue University
1301 Third Street
West Lafayette, IN 47906-4206
datam...@purdue.edu<mailto:datam...@purdue.edu>
phone: (765) 496-9563

Professor of Statistics and
(by courtesy) of Mathematics
Purdue University
150 North University Street
West Lafayette, IN 47907-2067
m...@purdue.edu<mailto:m...@purdue.edu>
phone: (765) 496-9563


On 1/4/20 4:51 PM, Tom Lane via X11-users wrote:
JF Mezei via X11-users  writes:
I am running the "Apple suppoted" older version on High Sierrs
XQuartz 2.7.11 (xorg-server 1.18.4)
Yeah, that one still works pretty well for me on Catalina.
I am using a slightly modified X11 server with it too, to fix
the focus problems that were such a hassle a few years ago.
Beyond having to reinstall that stuff after any OS upgrade,
it hasn't broken yet.

Apart from a few hiccups here and there, it works.  For instance, after
I turn the TV on or off and the Mac insists on flashing the screens
multiple times, the Xterm windows always end up on top.
Yeah, I do notice the X11 windows forcing themselves to front in
certain circumstances, but it's not been a huge problem for me.

Lots of things don't really work well
1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then start 
quartz-wm from the
xterm it fires up.
Hm, nope, clicking the XQuartz dock icon works fine for me.

regards, tom lane
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Mick Mueck via X11-users]

G'Day Alain,

Is there an English version of that website? I've just assumed for years now 
that X11 is either effectively abandoned or on below-minimum life support. So 
sad...

Regards,

Mick


> On 2020.0104, at 19:40, Filhol Alain via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
>> I thought it might be a good time to ask whether there will ever be an 
>> update for XQuartz?  (I really hope so!)
> Here the answer:
>   
> >
> Alain
> 
> 
> 
>> On 5 Jan 2020, at 00:30, Ward, Mark Daniel via X11-users 
>> mailto:x11-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I use XQuartz 2.7.11 daily too, now with Catalina... but I worry that it 
>> hasn't been updated since 2016.
>> 
>> Since there has been a flurry of emails on this email list in the last 
>> few days, I thought it might be a good time to ask whether there will 
>> ever be an update for XQuartz?  (I really hope so!)
>> 
>> Warmest regards,
>> 
>> Mark Daniel Ward, Ph.D.
>> 
>> Director of The Data Mine
>> Purdue University
>> 1301 Third Street
>> West Lafayette, IN 47906-4206
>> datam...@purdue.edu 
>> phone: (765) 496-9563
>> 
>> Professor of Statistics and
>> (by courtesy) of Mathematics
>> Purdue University
>> 150 North University Street
>> West Lafayette, IN 47907-2067
>> m...@purdue.edu
>> phone: (765) 496-9563
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/4/20 4:51 PM, Tom Lane via X11-users wrote:
>>> JF Mezei via X11-users  writes:
 I am running the "Apple suppoted" older version on High Sierrs
 XQuartz 2.7.11 (xorg-server 1.18.4)
>>> Yeah, that one still works pretty well for me on Catalina.
>>> I am using a slightly modified X11 server with it too, to fix
>>> the focus problems that were such a hassle a few years ago.
>>> Beyond having to reinstall that stuff after any OS upgrade,
>>> it hasn't broken yet.
>>> 
 Apart from a few hiccups here and there, it works.  For instance, after
 I turn the TV on or off and the Mac insists on flashing the screens
 multiple times, the Xterm windows always end up on top.
>>> Yeah, I do notice the X11 windows forcing themselves to front in
>>> certain circumstances, but it's not been a huge problem for me.
>>> 
> Lots of things don't really work well
> 1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then 
> start quartz-wm from the
> xterm it fires up.
>>> Hm, nope, clicking the XQuartz dock icon works fine for me.
>>> 
>>> regards, tom lane
>>>  ___
>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>> X11-users mailing list  (X11-users@lists.apple.com)
>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: 
>>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/x11-users/mdw%40purdue.edu
>>> 
>>> This email sent to m...@purdue.edu
> 
> 
> —
> Dr. Alain Filhol  (Computer scientist)
> Institut Laue-Langevin
> EPN Campus, CS 20156, 71 ave des Martyrs, F-38042 Grenoble cedex 9
> mailto:fil...@ill.eu>>, Office: ILL19-206
> Tel:+33 4.76.20.71.56, Fax: +33 4.76.20.76.48
> 
> ___
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Filhol Alain via X11-users]

> I thought it might be a good time to ask whether there will ever be an update 
> for XQuartz?  (I really hope so!)
Here the answer:
>
Alain



> On 5 Jan 2020, at 00:30, Ward, Mark Daniel via X11-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> I use XQuartz 2.7.11 daily too, now with Catalina... but I worry that it 
> hasn't been updated since 2016.
> 
> Since there has been a flurry of emails on this email list in the last 
> few days, I thought it might be a good time to ask whether there will 
> ever be an update for XQuartz?  (I really hope so!)
> 
> Warmest regards,
> 
> Mark Daniel Ward, Ph.D.
> 
> Director of The Data Mine
> Purdue University
> 1301 Third Street
> West Lafayette, IN 47906-4206
> datam...@purdue.edu
> phone: (765) 496-9563
> 
> Professor of Statistics and
> (by courtesy) of Mathematics
> Purdue University
> 150 North University Street
> West Lafayette, IN 47907-2067
> m...@purdue.edu
> phone: (765) 496-9563
> 
> 
> On 1/4/20 4:51 PM, Tom Lane via X11-users wrote:
>> JF Mezei via X11-users  writes:
>>> I am running the "Apple suppoted" older version on High Sierrs
>>> XQuartz 2.7.11 (xorg-server 1.18.4)
>> Yeah, that one still works pretty well for me on Catalina.
>> I am using a slightly modified X11 server with it too, to fix
>> the focus problems that were such a hassle a few years ago.
>> Beyond having to reinstall that stuff after any OS upgrade,
>> it hasn't broken yet.
>> 
>>> Apart from a few hiccups here and there, it works.  For instance, after
>>> I turn the TV on or off and the Mac insists on flashing the screens
>>> multiple times, the Xterm windows always end up on top.
>> Yeah, I do notice the X11 windows forcing themselves to front in
>> certain circumstances, but it's not been a huge problem for me.
>> 
 Lots of things don't really work well
 1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then 
 start quartz-wm from the
 xterm it fires up.
>> Hm, nope, clicking the XQuartz dock icon works fine for me.
>> 
>>  regards, tom lane
>>  ___
>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>> X11-users mailing list  (X11-users@lists.apple.com)
>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: 
>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/x11-users/mdw%40purdue.edu
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>> This email sent to m...@purdue.edu


—
Dr. Alain Filhol  (Computer scientist)
Institut Laue-Langevin
EPN Campus, CS 20156, 71 ave des Martyrs, F-38042 Grenoble cedex 9
, Office: ILL19-206
Tel:+33 4.76.20.71.56, Fax: +33 4.76.20.76.48

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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Ward, Mark Daniel via X11-users]

I use XQuartz 2.7.11 daily too, now with Catalina... but I worry that it 
hasn't been updated since 2016.

Since there has been a flurry of emails on this email list in the last 
few days, I thought it might be a good time to ask whether there will 
ever be an update for XQuartz?  (I really hope so!)

Warmest regards,

Mark Daniel Ward, Ph.D.

Director of The Data Mine
Purdue University
1301 Third Street
West Lafayette, IN 47906-4206
datam...@purdue.edu
phone: (765) 496-9563

Professor of Statistics and
(by courtesy) of Mathematics
Purdue University
150 North University Street
West Lafayette, IN 47907-2067
m...@purdue.edu
phone: (765) 496-9563


On 1/4/20 4:51 PM, Tom Lane via X11-users wrote:
> JF Mezei via X11-users  writes:
>> I am running the "Apple suppoted" older version on High Sierrs
>> XQuartz 2.7.11 (xorg-server 1.18.4)
> Yeah, that one still works pretty well for me on Catalina.
> I am using a slightly modified X11 server with it too, to fix
> the focus problems that were such a hassle a few years ago.
> Beyond having to reinstall that stuff after any OS upgrade,
> it hasn't broken yet.
>
>> Apart from a few hiccups here and there, it works.  For instance, after
>> I turn the TV on or off and the Mac insists on flashing the screens
>> multiple times, the Xterm windows always end up on top.
> Yeah, I do notice the X11 windows forcing themselves to front in
> certain circumstances, but it's not been a huge problem for me.
>
>>> Lots of things don't really work well
>>> 1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then 
>>> start quartz-wm from the
>>> xterm it fires up.
> Hm, nope, clicking the XQuartz dock icon works fine for me.
>
>   regards, tom lane
>   ___
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Tom Lane via X11-users]

JF Mezei via X11-users  writes:
> I am running the "Apple suppoted" older version on High Sierrs
> XQuartz 2.7.11 (xorg-server 1.18.4)

Yeah, that one still works pretty well for me on Catalina.
I am using a slightly modified X11 server with it too, to fix
the focus problems that were such a hassle a few years ago.
Beyond having to reinstall that stuff after any OS upgrade,
it hasn't broken yet.

> Apart from a few hiccups here and there, it works.  For instance, after
> I turn the TV on or off and the Mac insists on flashing the screens
> multiple times, the Xterm windows always end up on top.

Yeah, I do notice the X11 windows forcing themselves to front in
certain circumstances, but it's not been a huge problem for me.

>> Lots of things don't really work well
>> 1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then 
>> start quartz-wm from the
>> xterm it fires up.

Hm, nope, clicking the XQuartz dock icon works fine for me.

regards, tom lane
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[JF Mezei via X11-users]

On 2020-01-04 03:34, Gunning, James (Energy, Clayton North) via
X11-users wrote:
> Hi All,
>  I'm running Xquartz from the Macports build on High Sierra.

I am running the "Apple suppoted" older version on High Sierrs
XQuartz 2.7.11 (xorg-server 1.18.4)

Apart from a few hiccups here and there, it works.  For instance, after
I turn the TV on or off and the Mac insists on flashing the screens
multiple times, the Xterm windows always end up on top.


Starting X11 after a crash (window server freezes often on a Mac Pro
2013, I force the crash by disconnecting TV from HDMI port), it can take
a while after clicking on the XQuartz icon before the first terminal
window appears.


> Lots of things don't really work well
> 1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then start 
> quartz-wm from the
> xterm it fires up.

Sometimes your login does stuff that worked in previous version but not
in current one. Experienced that during one upgrade years ago when my
.xinitrc did stuff thyat should no longer be done (like calling the
xinitrc binary to start the window manager).

Rename all your . files that are related to x in yoru login and see if
it starts normally, then rename each back one at a time to see which one
can cause the startup to fail.
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[René J . V . Bertin via X11-users]

On Saturday January 04 2020 03:21:20 Ken Preslan wrote:

>There was a speed regression from 1.18 to 1.20.  It's still not nearly
>as fast as XQuartz was before Yosemite, though.

Thanks for giving me another reason not to upgrade beyond 10.9! I too do lots 
of things under X11 because it typically isn't slower and usually reduces 
memory overhead for some reason.

>At times, I wonder how hard it would be to change MacPorts' "vnc" port to
>start compiling the VNC/X11 server.  (Right now it only compiles the

You'd lose the rootless mode where X11 windows are mixed with native windows, 
as well as multihead support, right?

There may be another approach. A few years back I asked Jeremy H. what he 
thought of an interest for having Wayland on Mac. If I understood his answer 
correctly it could also be an answer to the current X11 problems because it 
should allow to run a standard X11-on-Wayland layer. I don't have enough 
experience with Wayland to know how well those layers work, but I'd assume them 
to be rather crucial for the new platform to get acceptance.

R.
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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Cheng-Yang Tan via X11-users]

 FYI, at least for me, a clean install of X11 doesn't work/start properly. I 
had to install Xquartz first and then install X11. Once that is done, only X11 
needs to be run.
Unfortunately, on Catalina, local xterms just doesn't work properly and I have 
an activation/focus problem with X11 on Catalina as well (see my previous pos). 
On the bright side, I've not had problems with remotely opened X programs from 
Linux boxes.
YMMV
cytan
On Saturday, January 4, 2020, 01:02:29 PM CST, Ken Preslan via X11-users 
 wrote:  
 
 Yes, it's a version of X11 from x.org.

You install Macports then you do a "port install xorg-server".  That puts
an X11.app into /Applications/MacPorts.  You can double click it or drag
it to your dock and click it there.  It's just like the one installed by
XQuartz.

You want to make sure /opt/local/bin and /opt/local/sbin are in your path,
as that's where the the X11 apps (xterm, xclock, etc) are stored.


On Sat, Jan 04, 2020 at 07:28:04PM +0100, Filhol Alain via X11-users wrote:
> When you speak of a MacPort version of X11, is it this one 
> > ?
> I am new at MacPorts and I am not sure I understand how to use it. 
>     port info xorg-apps
> If I install this port, does it gives a X11.app similar to Quartz.app ? Shall 
> I activate it through a Terminal command ?
> "Description: This package builds all of the x.org  app 
> packages.” but this does not say where they are installed and how to use them.
> 
> I think that Apple should support XQuartz and developers should complain 
> about it.
> 
> Happy new year
> Alain
> 
> 
> > On 4 Jan 2020, at 10:21, Ken Preslan via X11-users 
> > mailto:x11-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > Try the xorg-server-1.18 MacPort instead of the default xorg-server port.
> > There was a speed regression from 1.18 to 1.20.  It's still not nearly
> > as fast as XQuartz was before Yosemite, though.
> > 
> > At times, I wonder how hard it would be to change MacPorts' "vnc" port to
> > start compiling the VNC/X11 server.  (Right now it only compiles the
> > client.)  If that could be made to work, you could use a native MacOS
> > VNC client to connect to it.  You'd have something that would run X11
> > apps on the Mac which would be lighter weight than a VM and much faster
> > than XQuartz.  You'd think that the work involved would be much smaller
> > than the "XtoQ in libxcwm" fix to XQuartz.
> > 
> > I've never gotten around to trying it though.
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Jan 04, 2020 at 08:34:32AM +, Gunning, James (Energy, Clayton 
> > North) via X11-users wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>    I'm running Xquartz from the Macports build on High Sierra.
> >> Lots of things don't really work well
> >> 1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then 
> >> start quartz-wm from the
> >> xterm it fires up. The  Applications/Macports/X11.app just bounced 
> >> endlessly.
> >> 2) Even when up, the drawing/rendering speed makes all X11 apps unusably 
> >> slow.
> >> See https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/issues/188 
> >> 
> >> Since X11 is my workhorse, this makes the whole OSX+X11 platform 
> >> experience rather
> >> unworkable for me. I've taken to running linux via a VM on OSX - at least 
> >> the X11 works well, but it's a heavyweight solution.
> >> It seems to me that without a fix this disqualifies OSX as a platform for 
> >> people who depend on the huge legacy set of X11 codes.
> >> 
> >> Are other people as plagued by these issues as well. Is there any hope of 
> >> remediation for Xquartz
> >> or substitute/workaround people know of?
> >> 
> >> Best wishes
> >>        James.
> >> 
> 
> 
> —
> Dr. Alain Filhol  (Computer scientist)
> Institut Laue-Langevin
> EPN Campus, CS 20156, 71 ave des Martyrs, F-38042 Grenoble cedex 9
> mailto:fil...@ill.eu>>, Office: ILL19-206
> Tel:+33 4.76.20.71.56, Fax: +33 4.76.20.76.48
> 

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Ken Preslan 

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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Ken Preslan via X11-users]

Yes, it's a version of X11 from x.org.

You install Macports then you do a "port install xorg-server".  That puts
an X11.app into /Applications/MacPorts.  You can double click it or drag
it to your dock and click it there.  It's just like the one installed by
XQuartz.

You want to make sure /opt/local/bin and /opt/local/sbin are in your path,
as that's where the the X11 apps (xterm, xclock, etc) are stored.


On Sat, Jan 04, 2020 at 07:28:04PM +0100, Filhol Alain via X11-users wrote:
> When you speak of a MacPort version of X11, is it this one 
> > ?
> I am new at MacPorts and I am not sure I understand how to use it. 
>   port info xorg-apps
> If I install this port, does it gives a X11.app similar to Quartz.app ? Shall 
> I activate it through a Terminal command ?
> "Description: This package builds all of the x.org  app 
> packages.” but this does not say where they are installed and how to use them.
> 
> I think that Apple should support XQuartz and developers should complain 
> about it.
> 
> Happy new year
> Alain
> 
> 
> > On 4 Jan 2020, at 10:21, Ken Preslan via X11-users 
> > mailto:x11-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > Try the xorg-server-1.18 MacPort instead of the default xorg-server port.
> > There was a speed regression from 1.18 to 1.20.  It's still not nearly
> > as fast as XQuartz was before Yosemite, though.
> > 
> > At times, I wonder how hard it would be to change MacPorts' "vnc" port to
> > start compiling the VNC/X11 server.  (Right now it only compiles the
> > client.)  If that could be made to work, you could use a native MacOS
> > VNC client to connect to it.  You'd have something that would run X11
> > apps on the Mac which would be lighter weight than a VM and much faster
> > than XQuartz.  You'd think that the work involved would be much smaller
> > than the "XtoQ in libxcwm" fix to XQuartz.
> > 
> > I've never gotten around to trying it though.
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Jan 04, 2020 at 08:34:32AM +, Gunning, James (Energy, Clayton 
> > North) via X11-users wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >> I'm running Xquartz from the Macports build on High Sierra.
> >> Lots of things don't really work well
> >> 1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then 
> >> start quartz-wm from the
> >> xterm it fires up. The  Applications/Macports/X11.app just bounced 
> >> endlessly.
> >> 2) Even when up, the drawing/rendering speed makes all X11 apps unusably 
> >> slow.
> >> See https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/issues/188 
> >> 
> >> Since X11 is my workhorse, this makes the whole OSX+X11 platform 
> >> experience rather
> >> unworkable for me. I've taken to running linux via a VM on OSX - at least 
> >> the X11 works well, but it's a heavyweight solution.
> >> It seems to me that without a fix this disqualifies OSX as a platform for 
> >> people who depend on the huge legacy set of X11 codes.
> >> 
> >> Are other people as plagued by these issues as well. Is there any hope of 
> >> remediation for Xquartz
> >> or substitute/workaround people know of?
> >> 
> >> Best wishes
> >> James.
> >> 
> 
> 
> —
> Dr. Alain Filhol  (Computer scientist)
> Institut Laue-Langevin
> EPN Campus, CS 20156, 71 ave des Martyrs, F-38042 Grenoble cedex 9
> mailto:fil...@ill.eu>>, Office: ILL19-206
> Tel:+33 4.76.20.71.56, Fax: +33 4.76.20.76.48
> 

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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Filhol Alain via X11-users]

>> 2) Even when up, the drawing/rendering speed makes all X11 apps unusably 
>> slow.
XQuartz from www.quartz.org  was already extremely slow 
as compared to X11 on Linux or Windows.
On 02 Feb 2017 Jeremy Huddleston Sequoia wrote:  
> By oct 21 2016 I asked on  > a question about slow dialogues with 
> OpenMotif and XQuartz (much slower than with Linux). Is this a known bug ? 
> Shall I post again ?
>> There is a known issue there, I believe with Yosemite and newer versions of 
>> macOS (maybe Mavericks+, maybe ElCap+, I forget exactly).  The issue is 
>> below us in CoreGraphics and won't really be fixed on Apple's side as doing 
>> so would fix this case but cause bad performance penalties for every single 
>> other case out there.  The real solution is to get XQuartz off of libXplugin 
>> and start using more modern macOS APIs (eg: finishing up libxcwm), but 
>> there's not really anyone actively working on that right now.
> If you're interested in working on the replacement, I can point you in the 
> right direction.  It's maybe 60% done ... all by a group of college seniors 
> at PSU.


When you speak of a MacPort version of X11, is it this one 
> ?
I am new at MacPorts and I am not sure I understand how to use it. 
port info xorg-apps
If I install this port, does it gives a X11.app similar to Quartz.app ? Shall I 
activate it through a Terminal command ?
"Description: This package builds all of the x.org  app 
packages.” but this does not say where they are installed and how to use them.

I think that Apple should support XQuartz and developers should complain about 
it.

Happy new year
Alain


> On 4 Jan 2020, at 10:21, Ken Preslan via X11-users  > wrote:
> 
> Try the xorg-server-1.18 MacPort instead of the default xorg-server port.
> There was a speed regression from 1.18 to 1.20.  It's still not nearly
> as fast as XQuartz was before Yosemite, though.
> 
> At times, I wonder how hard it would be to change MacPorts' "vnc" port to
> start compiling the VNC/X11 server.  (Right now it only compiles the
> client.)  If that could be made to work, you could use a native MacOS
> VNC client to connect to it.  You'd have something that would run X11
> apps on the Mac which would be lighter weight than a VM and much faster
> than XQuartz.  You'd think that the work involved would be much smaller
> than the "XtoQ in libxcwm" fix to XQuartz.
> 
> I've never gotten around to trying it though.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 04, 2020 at 08:34:32AM +, Gunning, James (Energy, Clayton 
> North) via X11-users wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> I'm running Xquartz from the Macports build on High Sierra.
>> Lots of things don't really work well
>> 1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then 
>> start quartz-wm from the
>> xterm it fires up. The  Applications/Macports/X11.app just bounced endlessly.
>> 2) Even when up, the drawing/rendering speed makes all X11 apps unusably 
>> slow.
>> See https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/issues/188 
>> 
>> Since X11 is my workhorse, this makes the whole OSX+X11 platform experience 
>> rather
>> unworkable for me. I've taken to running linux via a VM on OSX - at least 
>> the X11 works well, but it's a heavyweight solution.
>> It seems to me that without a fix this disqualifies OSX as a platform for 
>> people who depend on the huge legacy set of X11 codes.
>> 
>> Are other people as plagued by these issues as well. Is there any hope of 
>> remediation for Xquartz
>> or substitute/workaround people know of?
>> 
>> Best wishes
>> James.
>> 


—
Dr. Alain Filhol  (Computer scientist)
Institut Laue-Langevin
EPN Campus, CS 20156, 71 ave des Martyrs, F-38042 Grenoble cedex 9
mailto:fil...@ill.eu>>, Office: ILL19-206
Tel:+33 4.76.20.71.56, Fax: +33 4.76.20.76.48

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Re: Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Ken Preslan via X11-users]

Try the xorg-server-1.18 MacPort instead of the default xorg-server port.
There was a speed regression from 1.18 to 1.20.  It's still not nearly
as fast as XQuartz was before Yosemite, though.

At times, I wonder how hard it would be to change MacPorts' "vnc" port to
start compiling the VNC/X11 server.  (Right now it only compiles the
client.)  If that could be made to work, you could use a native MacOS
VNC client to connect to it.  You'd have something that would run X11
apps on the Mac which would be lighter weight than a VM and much faster
than XQuartz.  You'd think that the work involved would be much smaller
than the "XtoQ in libxcwm" fix to XQuartz.

I've never gotten around to trying it though.


On Sat, Jan 04, 2020 at 08:34:32AM +, Gunning, James (Energy, Clayton 
North) via X11-users wrote:
> Hi All,
>  I'm running Xquartz from the Macports build on High Sierra.
> Lots of things don't really work well
> 1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then start 
> quartz-wm from the
> xterm it fires up. The  Applications/Macports/X11.app just bounced endlessly.
> 2) Even when up, the drawing/rendering speed makes all X11 apps unusably slow.
> See https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/issues/188
> Since X11 is my workhorse, this makes the whole OSX+X11 platform experience 
> rather
> unworkable for me. I've taken to running linux via a VM on OSX - at least the 
> X11 works well, but it's a heavyweight solution.
> It seems to me that without a fix this disqualifies OSX as a platform for 
> people who depend on the huge legacy set of X11 codes.
> 
> Are other people as plagued by these issues as well. Is there any hope of 
> remediation for Xquartz
> or substitute/workaround people know of?
> 
> Best wishes
>  James.
> 
> 

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Xquartz (non-) usability. Drawing speed. Startup etc

[Gunning, James (Energy, Clayton North) via X11-users]

Hi All,
 I'm running Xquartz from the Macports build on High Sierra.
Lots of things don't really work well
1)  I have to run /opt/local/bin/Xquartz manually from a terminal, then start 
quartz-wm from the
xterm it fires up. The  Applications/Macports/X11.app just bounced endlessly.
2) Even when up, the drawing/rendering speed makes all X11 apps unusably slow.
See https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/issues/188
Since X11 is my workhorse, this makes the whole OSX+X11 platform experience 
rather
unworkable for me. I've taken to running linux via a VM on OSX - at least the 
X11 works well, but it's a heavyweight solution.
It seems to me that without a fix this disqualifies OSX as a platform for 
people who depend on the huge legacy set of X11 codes.

Are other people as plagued by these issues as well. Is there any hope of 
remediation for Xquartz
or substitute/workaround people know of?

Best wishes
 James.


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