Re: [Zen] Other traditions
Exactly Bill! So much for the wests romanticising of buddhism. . . . Artie --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Mayka, Itâs quite an involved situation. Too much for me to elaborate on here. I will just say that I have a real concern on whether the traditional social and cultural structure of Tibet is worth saving. It involves supporting a privileged religious class at the expense of the lay people. The lay people are kept uneducated and are taxed heavily - treated almost like slaves or at least serfs. Woman are kept like domestic animals. Young boys who are given to the religious class to use as orderlies are sometimes sexually abused and almost always physically abused. That's enough about that. From a Buddhist point-of-view, the Dalai Lama is adding or prolonging his fellow countrymen's suffering by encouraging them in their fight for independence. I think (my opinion only) he would serve them better as a Buddhist leader to help them severe their attachments to their superstitions, nationhood, language and cultural identity. It is these attachments that are the root of their suffering. Again, there are just my opinions and the reason I don't have much respect for the Dalai Lama. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
The New Age movement (in the US at least) is also partly responsible for this. Also (at least in the US) spirituality is commoditized like everything else and every 10 years or so there is a new spiritual fad. In the 80's Native American spiritual tradition was all the rage, then in the 90's it was Celtic. . . I don't know what it is now because I haven't been paying any attention (happily). On a broader cultural level anything Asian has been hot here in America for probably at least the last 20 years- art, food, spiritual, cultural ideas, etc. But it is all very shallow and most Americans have no real grasp of the deeper meanings. The label of culture vulture is very true of many if not most Americans in my observation. And yes, I'm an American, just in case anyone was wondering. . . . Artie Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] The Vasque Country
Dear Bill: Thanks Bill. I consider that the whole Spain with all its different areas makes from Spain a very interesting Country in all the ways as each area is unique and. However the central power is highly corrupted and that is not well taken by the Vasque people who are with a great sense of justice and genuinity in thier politics.. But I don't renegate of being Spanish as well as Vasque. I do love the entire Spain with all its for and against. Mayka --- On Mon, 13/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] The Vasque Country To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 13 September, 2010, 3:59 Mayka, Thanks for your post below. I was surprised at the post prior to that. It did seem out-of-character for you. This must be because you have deep feelings about Basque people and their struggle for an autonomous region. That is understandable. As I said in a post I just sent, a knowledge of history is not necessary to know the current state of affairs. I'm not arguing the history, although I did put down some historical facts several posts ago about Tibet. I'm just saying that at this time Tibet does not have an independent country. They are part of China. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 7:23 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] The Vasque Country Hi Bill; I don't like very much the way I addressed myself to you in previous post and would like to apologise for it. I don't know why I talked to you in such an unkind way. Sorry!. I paste here a link with an small but reliable and very well explained summary history of the Vasque Country. Perhaps I should have started by that in previous post. http://web.jet.es/thori/cultura.htm Thank your for your always kind ways and most of it for the sharing in the forum. Mayka --- On Sat, 11/9/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 September, 2010, 11:21 Bill; Funny that an American person living in Thailand seems to know better than a Vasque Person, or Spanish about their own land. I strongly advice you to read the History but read it by well educated Spanish historians who happen to be a lot of more neutral while talking about history in different worldwide countries and not by English Spoken historians who are not very good at it. It seems as they find hard to face that in fact while they still were leaving their excrements behind in the castle corners Italy was in the renasciment. I'm saying this because they are not very good telling the history about any country and there are times that they manipulate the history too!. However, do as you wish it doesn't affect me much if you keep with your incorrect history information or not. I can only tell you that your information about the Vasque Country doesn't fit the real book of History of the Vasque Country. Unless you are saying all this because for the seek of the argument. Mayka --- On Sat, 11/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 September, 2010, 7:31 Mayka, The Basque people occupy lands that overlap Spain and France, just as the Kurdish people occupy lands that overlap Iran and Turkey. Neither the Basque or the Kurdish people have a country of their own. Tibet hasn’t been an independent country since they were conquered by the Mongols in the 1200’s. China incorporated it as early as the 1700’s, and most recently punctuated their annexation in 1910. In 1950 under The Seventeen Point Agreement and recognized by the UN, Tibet officially recognized China’s sovereignty. In 1959 Tibet revolted unsuccessfully against China which resulted in the Dalai Lama fleeing Tibet. The UN still recognized the Seventeen Point Agreement and China’s sovereignty over Tibet. Tibet is not an independent country, it’s part of China. You can dislike this, think in unfair and try to wish it away, but these are the facts. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:20 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions Bill: Tibet is a Country. China's invasion into Tibet and making from it a province are just politics. The Vasque Country as the name itself says is a Country. Part of the Vasque Country is in France and part is in Spain. If you would be going to the Vasque Country you will be seeing that is very different from Spain in all the ways. As a contrast , I was borne in the Vasque Country and I believe anyone has ever heard say that I
RE: [Zen] Other traditions
My very dear Bill: Things hardly ever are as they appear to be under the eyes of the ones who are not from that culture. As a kind of paralelismo: I'd like to share some thoughts based in myself experience in a different land as Spain. Many years ago Spain was said to be an undeveloped country in which the catholic church was its only religion. We were all very fed up and wanted to have a country like the rest of Europe based in freedom, etc. We wanted to be part of the European Union and exchange our culture and goods with the rest of Europe. We didn't wanted to be so different. We were not realicing at the time that we were a poor country but a country full of joy and appreciation for the things that really matters in life. A Country with a fantastic human warm, altruism and so much necesary human qualities that keept people united as only one family. Then, one day and slowly we achieved all that we wanted to achieve but in the process of all that we lost our unity as only one family, our joy for life, and our altruism becomes a widower. The Country become richer, had all the technology of all advanced countries but lost its simplicity and all that that really matters in life. It lost also its natural wisdom and exported all the ignorance plus suffering from foreign countries. And as a result of the identity of the country was getting lost. Mayka --- On Mon, 13/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 13 September, 2010, 3:59 Mayka, It’s quite an involved situation. Too much for me to elaborate on here. I will just say that I have a real concern on whether the traditional social and cultural structure of Tibet is worth saving. It involves supporting a privileged religious class at the expense of the lay people. The lay people are kept uneducated and are taxed heavily - treated almost like slaves or at least serfs. Woman are kept like domestic animals. Young boys who are given to the religious class to use as orderlies are sometimes sexually abused and almost always physically abused. That's enough about that. From a Buddhist point-of-view, the Dalai Lama is adding or prolonging his fellow countrymen's suffering by encouraging them in their fight for independence. I think (my opinion only) he would serve them better as a Buddhist leader to help them severe their attachments to their superstitions, nationhood, language and cultural identity. It is these attachments that are the root of their suffering. Again, there are just my opinions and the reason I don't have much respect for the Dalai Lama. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 8:08 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions Bill: Can you elaborate where do you find The Dalai Lama hipocresy?. I'm not very into their political issues with China. As a person I quite like The Dalai Lama. And this like of him has nothing to do with him being the Dalai Lama. And as for his dharma I wouldn't know much except that his talking is pleasant thought doesn't say much of new that anyone else knows already. But I like him and I don't think that he's an hipocrite but someone who is in a tricky situation. And because of that he tries his best to explore the ways of peace. Perhaps through that he might appear as he was an hipocrite but he's not. He's a man who dreams in a world where everyone is happy and all living beings are safe . I know, he's genuinely like this. But of course he's a human being too. He's not from a western culture and because of that it might be difficult to understand him. But he's genuine within his own culture. Mayka --- On Sat, 11/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 September, 2010, 3:49 Jody, The only Tibetan I've heard much from is the current Dalai Lama, and I find his hypocrisy disappointing. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jody W. Ianuzzi Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions The impression I get is that the Buddhism practiced by the people and the Llamas is different. The people practice a more superstitious daily practice and the Llamas are more intellectual. When asked if he believed in reincarnation, the Dala Lama replied that he shared the same spiritual beliefs as the previous Dalai Lamas. I find the honesty and humor of the Tibetans refreshing. JODY __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5441 (20100910) __ The message was
Re: [Zen] Rumi -- Jewels of Remembrance
Dear Mike Another good question -- compelled? To a certain extent, yes, but not entirely. In the case of Rumi and Sufis, the Beloved (Absolute)is longed for like a lover, and this longing is the love and the lover . . . it is a perfect expression. Of course you find this in Everyday Zen, right, or even in Bill's insistence that all this is just 'sitting', -- nothing special. It is a way of bringing the Absolute right down into the mundane expression of the contingent -- Maya, Delusion, Dunya . . . Rumi sees our origins as endlessness that has been darkened by our faulty conditioning -- in short we are eternity . . . he often uses the absence of the Beloved (not realizing)to remind the lover . . . and to take the elixir, the wine, and become intoxicated with eternity (Allah, Absolute, Al Dhat, Void, God, etc) Of course, he was a Poet, so you have to enter into the framework through the eyes of a metaphysical poet. best wishes Kirk --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Kirk, Is that greed to be united with the Beloved - or are we compelled? Mike From: salik888 novelid...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 13 September, 2010 2:35:23 Subject: [Zen] Rumi -- Jewels of Remembrance  The Beloved has blocked every escape Friends, the Beloved has blocked every escape: we are lame deer and He a prowling lion. Cornered by a fierce and bloodthirsty lion what is there to do but surrender? This Beloved, like the sun, neither sleeps nor eats: He makes souls sleepless and hungry, saying, Come, be Me, or one with Me in nature, so when I unveil Myself, you may behold My Face. And if you had not beheld it, how would you have become so distraught? You were earth, and now you long to be quickened with spiritual life. Already the Beloved has bestowed gifts from that world of spacelessness, otherwise why would your spiritual eye keep gazing there? ~~~ Ay rafiqân râh-hâ-râ bast Yâr âhu-ye langim va U shir-e shekâr Joz keh taslim o rezâ ku châreh-'i dar kaff-e shir-e nari khun khvâreh-'i U na-dârad khvâb o khvor chon âftâb ruh-hâ-râ mi konad bi khvord o khvâb Keh Biyâ Man bâsh yâ ham ham khu-ye Man tâ be-bini dar tajalli Ru-ye Man Var na-didi chon chonin shaydâ shodi khâk budi tâleb-e ehyâ shodi Gar ze bi suyet na-dâdast U `alaf cheshm-e jânet chon be-mândast ân taraf -- Mathnawi VI: 576-581 Version by Camille and Kabir Helminski Rumi: Jewels of Remembrance Threshold Books, 1996 Persian transliteration courtesy of Yahyá Mona Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
Kristy I look forward to hearing something about the Integralists. I have studied them, particularly in relationship to Perennialism/Traditionalism (Guenon, Schoun, Coomaraswamy) . . . They have some connections to the Esalen Institute as well. But, I will wait to see where this post goes. best wishes Kirk --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthypl...@... wrote: *chuckles*  Touché..  I think the current trend is known as integral Spirituality, spear-headed by Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber. (EnlighteNext Magazine). Sort of a meta-physical, mathmatical new age movement centered on consciousness. Other devotées include Barbara Marx Huibbard, Depak Chopra amd a host of inter-faith leaders which include zen monks and even Gempo Roshi.  I'll share more on this topic later, as Bill offered some intriguing thoughts..  I wish it were a rainy day here today. I'm ready for a season change.  Kristy --- On Mon, 9/13/10, roloro1557 roloro1...@... wrote: From: roloro1557 roloro1...@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 1:17 AM  The New Age movement (in the US at least) is also partly responsible for this. Also (at least in the US) spirituality is commoditized like everything else and every 10 years or so there is a new spiritual fad. In the 80's Native American spiritual tradition was all the rage, then in the 90's it was Celtic. . . I don't know what it is now because I haven't been paying any attention (happily). On a broader cultural level anything Asian has been hot here in America for probably at least the last 20 years- art, food, spiritual, cultural ideas, etc. But it is all very shallow and most Americans have no real grasp of the deeper meanings. The label of culture vulture is very true of many if not most Americans in my observation. And yes, I'm an American, just in case anyone was wondering. . . . Artie Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
*bows* to Kirk et al;) I address my comments to your last paragraph on what indeed is happening to zen in the west. I am by no means a scholar on the topic. I offer my observations as I see a troublesome trend. I have been concerned in recent years about the commercialization of spiritual practices, like zen. Retreats, books, CD's, other media and the internet have made spirituality a lucative venture. Radio programs like Hayhouseradio.com, among many others, suggest they exist as a means to spread the message. Ok, I don't have a problem if people have money or not. But I am tired of attraction laws, and affirmations and chants and meditations, that propose this is a process of coercing some karmic force that can lead you to enlightenment while sitting in a Rolls Royce, ( a-la- Louise Hays of Hayhouse). Maybe I'm naively purist, but something seems fundamentally wrong to me. I am puzzled by the statement in all these books that the answer is not in a book, but it still costs $24.95 to gleen this truth. Retreat fees are outrageous. Omega, Spirit Rock, and the like-- all are reaping big rewards, and I do indeed think it has corrupted the translation and transmission of the teachings and its history. One other thought.. In the west, there has been this effort to manipulate the dharma so as to be acceptable to the westernized student mind-set and culture. Hence, the Big Mind process. While many rave over this technique, it has never worked for me. It simply feels like Jungian group therapy. I see value in the process for many seeking better self-awareness and coping skills in life. But I don't see how it relates to Soto, Rinzai or any other traditional teaching. Moreover, though American myself, I am sick and tired of the needyiness for self-gratification many Westerners feel they are entitled to. A sense of entitlement could perhaps sum up a western mind-set. Kristy --- On Mon, 9/13/10, salik888 novelid...@aol.com wrote: In the case of Americans or Westerner plundering the Tradition of Zen. I think that is two answers -- first, there are some who have kept up the Traditions of Soto and Rinzai very well, but expressing a natural sense of American Transcendentalism. We sort of have our own secrets and gnostics inherent in our experience. That is culture and the Tradition, like the differences between Chinese Chan and Japanese Zen. And then of course there has been those that have expressed an anything goes sort of Zen, or Zen and this and Zen and that. So, in short, I don't think Zen Buddhism is under anymore attack in America than Japan, at least on the esoteric level. I do think there is a possibility in both Japan and the West for any Tradition, whether that be Sufis or Zen, for it to continuously be under attack from Secularism and syncretism. This is post modern information age times. In some sense it is what is wrong at the heart of the Middle East . . . not only is Islam fighting the Secular West, but more importantly they are fighting themselves, in terms of post modern times. Technological and Western individualism and syncretism has made advances on their civilization (traditional culture)and they are having a sort of nighmarish reform that we are all witnessing. Trust me, it probably was not much fun in Europe for many during the upheaval post Reformation. So, in perspective Zen is alive and well. It offers a good Tradition and leans on its pluralistic expression. The Sufis do likewise, however they are on the run in Saudi Arabia and Iran, the two major power brokers in Middle Eastern culture. When the Sufis can practice again in Mecca, you will know that its all turned for the better. But in the case of Zen, and even in China, which I hear Buddhism is flourishing after all these years, as I said, I think the prospects look good. best wishes Kirk --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Kirk, The below was an interesting read. If I read it correctly. you seem to be saying that practioners of Zen need to adapt their practice to suit their own particular cultural milieu. As someone who is living in Japan, and is reminded daily of the chasm between Asian/western thinking, I think I'd have to agree. 'Zen' is Japanese, but what is at the heart of Zen is not. The change towards a more western approach to Zen, however, is slow and incremental and maybe that's as it should be. I wonder tho, will a more western approach to Zen include it as 'just' part of a wider, eclectic system of religious/philisophical etc. study and practice - or will the efficacy of Zen be diluted by such an approach (the traditional Japanese viewpoint). Mike  .From: salik888 novelid...@... To: zen_fo...@... Sent: Mon, 13 September, 2010 2:28:50 Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill Â
Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
I think it is more than that. People are shallow, sure, that's nothing new. But I wouldn't say that there is no change recently in the degree of various cultures mixing around. I had a most interesting conversation with my Indian-born co-workers the other day about how their parents want the grand-kids to be more traditional than is going to be the case, and the parents just want them to be some what Indian, but can already see the great gap between their upbringing and their kids upbringing. We celebrate Diwali at my work place, Chinese New Year, Superbowl Sunday, and Christmas. Sure, the Diwali is different than in Andhra Pradesh, but it's not some external trendy thing US born folks are doing - it is a gift offered from the Indian born folks for their pleasure and for us US born folks to enjoy as well. I think your words over-emphasize the power of commoditization - the flower blooms among the mud after all. My obligatory Zen joke: there is no deeper meaning in zen. There is just the zen meal and the zen art and the zen bulletin board. On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:17 AM, roloro1557 roloro1...@yahoo.com wrote: The New Age movement (in the US at least) is also partly responsible for this. Also (at least in the US) spirituality is commoditized like everything else and every 10 years or so there is a new spiritual fad. In the 80's Native American spiritual tradition was all the rage, then in the 90's it was Celtic. . . I don't know what it is now because I haven't been paying any attention (happily). On a broader cultural level anything Asian has been hot here in America for probably at least the last 20 years- art, food, spiritual, cultural ideas, etc. But it is all very shallow and most Americans have no real grasp of the deeper meanings. The label of culture vulture is very true of many if not most Americans in my observation. And yes, I'm an American, just in case anyone was wondering. . . . Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
Oh no...quite the reverse. I think what I meant was that it is the inherent westernized values system that has--in my opinion, tainted the otherwise traditional teachings. I also agree that mercenaries have existed since the dawn of man. Perhaps its not all bad... People who ordinarily are indifferent to anything spiritual or inward-bound are taking note , and signing up for all this. Time will tell which direction it leads.. *bows* kristy --- On Mon, 9/13/10, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 2:40 PM Surely you aren't saying that Zen has made the US more shallow? Quick fixes, the gospel of getting lots of money, and similar things have been a part of US culture for a long time. I don't find them particularly useful, but it's by no means some recent trend in the US. The forms now have changed as there are more religious traditions around, but the dynamic is not new. Disclaimer: I grew up practicing Christianity down the street from PTL, Jim Baker's Christian emporium where it was often said that God doesn't want us to have tacky things. In my book, Eckhart Tolle has a ways to go before his words are that far astray from the cyprus tree in the garden. --Chris On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: *bows* to Kirk et al;) I address my comments to your last paragraph on what indeed is happening to zen in the west. I am by no means a scholar on the topic. I offer my observations as I see a troublesome trend. I have been concerned in recent years about the commercialization of spiritual practices, like zen. Retreats, books, CD's, other media and the internet have made spirituality a lucative venture. Radio programs like Hayhouseradio.com, among many others, suggest they exist as a means to spread the message. Ok, I don't have a problem if people have money or not. But I am tired of attraction laws, and affirmations and chants and meditations, that propose this is a process of coercing some karmic force that can lead you to enlightenment while sitting in a Rolls Royce, ( a-la- Louise Hays of Hayhouse). Maybe I'm naively purist, but something seems fundamentally wrong to me. I am puzzled by the statement in all these books that the answer is not in a book, but it still costs $24.95 to gleen this truth. Retreat fees are outrageous. Omega, Spirit Rock, and the like-- all are reaping big rewards, and I do indeed think it has corrupted the translation and transmission of the teachings and its history. One other thought.. In the west, there has been this effort to manipulate the dharma so as to be acceptable to the westernized student mind-set and culture. Hence, the Big Mind process. While many rave over this technique, it has never worked for me. It simply feels like Jungian group therapy. I see value in the process for many seeking better self-awareness and coping skills in life. But I don't see how it relates to Soto, Rinzai or any other traditional teaching. Moreover, though American myself, I am sick and tired of the needyiness for self-gratification many Westerners feel they are entitled to. A sense of entitlement could perhaps sum up a western mind-set. Kristy --- On Mon, 9/13/10, salik888 novelid...@aol.com wrote: In the case of Americans or Westerner plundering the Tradition of Zen. I think that is two answers -- first, there are some who have kept up the Traditions of Soto and Rinzai very well, but expressing a natural sense of American Transcendentalism. We sort of have our own secrets and gnostics inherent in our experience. That is culture and the Tradition, like the differences between Chinese Chan and Japanese Zen. And then of course there has been those that have expressed an anything goes sort of Zen, or Zen and this and Zen and that. So, in short, I don't think Zen Buddhism is under anymore attack in America than Japan, at least on the esoteric level. I do think there is a possibility in both Japan and the West for any Tradition, whether that be Sufis or Zen, for it to continuously be under attack from Secularism and syncretism. This is post modern information age times. In some sense it is what is wrong at the heart of the Middle East . . . not only is Islam fighting the Secular West, but more importantly they are fighting themselves, in terms of post modern times. Technological and Western individualism and syncretism has made advances on their civilization (traditional culture)and they are having a sort of nighmarish reform that we are all witnessing. Trust me, it probably was not much fun in Europe for many during the upheaval post Reformation. So, in perspective Zen is alive and well. It offers a good Tradition and
RE: [Zen] Other traditions
Bill, I have respect for Dalai Lama. He is erudite and smart, and knows how to combine western humor and eastern learning. Meanwhile I find some of his remarks amusing, especially when he tries to hide his independence mind behind his non violence proposals. He is a contradiction worth studying. As concerns the history of Tibet and its present implications. Your description matches what I read. I will leave it up to you to make comments and will read with interest. Anthony --- On Mon, 13/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 13 September, 2010, 10:59 AM Mayka, It’s quite an involved situation. Too much for me to elaborate on here. I will just say that I have a real concern on whether the traditional social and cultural structure of Tibet is worth saving. It involves supporting a privileged religious class at the expense of the lay people. The lay people are kept uneducated and are taxed heavily - treated almost like slaves or at least serfs. Woman are kept like domestic animals. Young boys who are given to the religious class to use as orderlies are sometimes sexually abused and almost always physically abused. That's enough about that. From a Buddhist point-of-view, the Dalai Lama is adding or prolonging his fellow countrymen's suffering by encouraging them in their fight for independence. I think (my opinion only) he would serve them better as a Buddhist leader to help them severe their attachments to their superstitions, nationhood, language and cultural identity. It is these attachments that are the root of their suffering. Again, there are just my opinions and the reason I don't have much respect for the Dalai Lama. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 8:08 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions Bill: Can you elaborate where do you find The Dalai Lama hipocresy?. I'm not very into their political issues with China. As a person I quite like The Dalai Lama. And this like of him has nothing to do with him being the Dalai Lama. And as for his dharma I wouldn't know much except that his talking is pleasant thought doesn't say much of new that anyone else knows already. But I like him and I don't think that he's an hipocrite but someone who is in a tricky situation. And because of that he tries his best to explore the ways of peace. Perhaps through that he might appear as he was an hipocrite but he's not. He's a man who dreams in a world where everyone is happy and all living beings are safe . I know, he's genuinely like this. But of course he's a human being too. He's not from a western culture and because of that it might be difficult to understand him. But he's genuine within his own culture. Mayka --- On Sat, 11/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 September, 2010, 3:49 Jody, The only Tibetan I've heard much from is the current Dalai Lama, and I find his hypocrisy disappointing. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jody W. Ianuzzi Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions The impression I get is that the Buddhism practiced by the people and the Llamas is different. The people practice a more superstitious daily practice and the Llamas are more intellectual. When asked if he believed in reincarnation, the Dala Lama replied that he shared the same spiritual beliefs as the previous Dalai Lamas. I find the honesty and humor of the Tibetans refreshing. JODY __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5441 (20100910) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5441 (20100910) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5445 (20100912) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5445 (20100912) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Other traditions
Bill, Karma is not 'something else' to take responsibility for your life. It asks you to take your own responsibility, without shifting it to 'something else'. You are thinking it in the way without knowing it. Anthony --- On Mon, 13/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 13 September, 2010, 10:59 AM Anthony, What you say below about Christianity and Buddhism is true, or at least my understanding of their teachings also. As I said in an earlier post, I don’t consider zen a sub-set or exclusively dependent upon Buddhism. Sin (which requires first repenting and then forgiveness) is a feature of Christianity (and other religions). Karma is a feature of Buddhism (and other religions). The zen I practice is not based on a concept of sin or karma. These I consider maya. They are conceptualizations of dualistic concepts. They may be very useful in teaching, and in giving people boundaries or rules who want someone or something else to take responsibility for their own life, thoughts and actions. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 3:43 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions Bill, Look at the following difference: Christianity asks you to finally unite with God, who can absolve you even if you kill or rape, while buddhism insists on independent karma that is created by yourself and cannot be changed by others. // Is it superficial? anthony --- On Sat, 11/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 September, 2010, 10:54 AM Kirk, I liked your post below. I do think, in fact BELIEVE, that most of the difference we see in the disparate religions are superficial, mainly teaching techniques that have been developed to lead you eventually to the same place. It is likely just my own prejudice or at least my more extensive familiarity, but I do think Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism has the least amount of 'fluff' and most straight-forward teaching techniques. This is important, because (to paraphrase one of your analogies below) once you reach the other shore you need to let go of your attachment to the boat. With most religions that is very, very hard to do, and in fact actively discouraged. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of novelid...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 5:51 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Other traditions Anthony I think you have the beginnings of something. The Tantric visualization approach and guidance along the lines of Llamaism could be seen as a counterpart to zazen path of Zen, you are using the outward (contemplation, meditation, etc) to reach greater inner clarity and expression . . . You could make the case that once a certain station is reached you are zazen, you are attention, the pure self, the selflessness of self. Once again the Sufis address this over and over again within the context of their teaching stories, meditation, action techniques, gatherings, poetry, etc -- drinking the wine and going beyond the vessel . . . same thing as gone gone to the other shore . . .don't need the boat anymore. Kirk In a message dated 9/10/2010 2:38:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wu...@yahoo.com.sg writes: Bill, I am 90% in agreement with you. There are a lot of differences between Tibetan Tantra and traditional Buddhism. The most significant is their attitude and practice on sex rituals. On the other hand, the Tantra also has a lot of colorful and spectacular techniques. If they help some. why not practice them whether or not they can be consifered Buddhism Anthony --- On Fri, 10/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 10 September, 2010, 9:47 PM DP, I myself don’t consider Tibetan ‘Buddhism’ actually Buddhist. I should more rightfully be classified as ‘Lamaism’ – with maybe some Buddhist terminology. It’s chock full of superstitions, gods and spirits and a lot of mysticism (and not just ‘chi’), the most well known of which is their belief that the Dalai Lama which is their ‘God-King’, and whom they believe is a reincarnation of the former Dalai Lama clear back to an actual ‘god’ (of Compassion). And don’t get me started on the Dalai Lama…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DP Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:49 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Other traditions I have a strange
Re: [Zen] Other traditions
Artie, What are you romanticising? Tibetan Tantra is not Buddhism, or you may call it renegade Buddhism. Anthony --- On Mon, 13/9/10, roloro1557 roloro1...@yahoo.com wrote: From: roloro1557 roloro1...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 13 September, 2010, 3:01 PM Exactly Bill! So much for the wests romanticising of buddhism. . . . Artie --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Mayka, It’s quite an involved situation. Too much for me to elaborate on here. I will just say that I have a real concern on whether the traditional social and cultural structure of Tibet is worth saving. It involves supporting a privileged religious class at the expense of the lay people. The lay people are kept uneducated and are taxed heavily - treated almost like slaves or at least serfs. Woman are kept like domestic animals. Young boys who are given to the religious class to use as orderlies are sometimes sexually abused and almost always physically abused. That's enough about that. From a Buddhist point-of-view, the Dalai Lama is adding or prolonging his fellow countrymen's suffering by encouraging them in their fight for independence. I think (my opinion only) he would serve them better as a Buddhist leader to help them severe their attachments to their superstitions, nationhood, language and cultural identity. It is these attachments that are the root of their suffering. Again, there are just my opinions and the reason I don't have much respect for the Dalai Lama.
Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
Well Bill, If you agreed on #3, that all words are illusory, then perhaps your insistent denial based on your teacher's words could itself be illusory? My teacher reminded us constantly, don't swallow my words as is. All spoken, written, thinking dharma are just form. If you experience it, then it is yours. Otherwise, they are just forms. The label of chi and karma are indeed form, but the experience of chi and karma requires practice, so is the experience of spirituality and the wisdom this practice contains. The way is not hard, if we don't pick or choose. Xin Xin Ming by the Third Patriarch. Every way leads somewhere determined by the quieting of our discriminating mind. Not just while meditating, but in every second of our daily lives. BoddhiDharma also said, When we sever all external associations and quiet all internal murmur, then we are on the way. Don't take my words for it. Don't take anyone's words. Just Experience. With all due respect, I have said nothing, JMJM On 9/10/2010 7:49 PM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: JMJM, Thanks for your reply. I've numbered your points so I can refer to them more easily. The zen I practice, the items that seem to be the same are 3, 4, 5 and 6; although I'd have to investigate what you mean by 3 and 6 before I could be 100% sure. As you know I consider both chi and karma illusory, teaching tools at best and comforting superstitions at worst. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 10:48 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill Hello Bill, As always, thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me get some of our definitions listed. 1. Chi is just a medium. The wisdom it contains is the spirit. 2. We all have chi, without it we die. Some can sense it. Some don't care. 3. In Chan, only True Form is not illusion. Everything else is, including this post of mine. 4. Every practice, no matter how different, is just a bridge. Some longer and some shorter. 5. Some bridge enable us to help others more efficiently. 6. The end result is still the same -- liberate ourselves and others from sufferings. 7. Depending on our karma, our paths are shaped. Thank you as always, JMJM On 9/10/2010 6:24 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org wrote: JMJM, Please don't take my posts as some kind of 'official' Zen Buddhist position. It's not. It's my position and I'm willing to take responsibility for it and explain it when asked. If y From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 12:30 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill I always know that Zen and Chan are the same in description, but different in practice. Now I am certain the missing practice in Zen is the Mystic Inner Witness practice or 『秘密內證法』 in Chinese. [Bill!] I'm not sure what the 'Mystic Inner Witness' practice is, but I think I can guess. It sounds like something described by many in the West as the 'watcher' or the 'witness'. A bodiless awareness that passively and exclusively observes. If it is this it is not taught in Japanese Renzai/Soto Zen Buddhism. I have experienced this phenomenon while sitting, and when I questioned my Roshi (Zen Teacher) about it during dokusan (private interview) I was told to just ignore it, that is was just maya (illusion). I did that and after a short while I never experienced it again. That's the reason Zen lost its spirituality and became an everyday rationalization, as described by you. [Bill!] 'Spirit' is defined by Merriam-Webster Online as: 1: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms 2: a supernatural being or essence Using those definitions as a basis for 'spirituality', I think you are referring to #1 - which I also think you call 'chi'. Again, during my beginning Japanese Renzai Zen Buddhist training, and when working on the 'breakthrough' koan 'Mu', I was encouraged to generate 'joriki', which was described as a 'ball of energy, like a small fire, located in my 'hara' (a spot just below the navel). I was told it would help me build up my ability to focus and achieve the necessary concentration that was necessary to pass the koan. After passing 'Mu' I asked my Roshi about joriki and if I needed to continue to generate and accumulate it. He replied that it was not necessary to do that anymore, that it was a form of maya and that although useful as a teaching technique it could actually become a hindrance when doing Shikan taza
Re: [Zen] Rumi -- Jewels of Remembrance
In zen, the absolute is not Just This. To encounter the Absolute is not yet enlightenment.Just this is not some magic words meaning something other than what is right in front of us. It is .. just ... this. The absolute meets the relative like a box and lid - fitting together to make a seamless reality, which is just this reality right here. --Chris On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 7:26 AM, salik888 novelid...@aol.com wrote: Dear Mike Another good question -- compelled? To a certain extent, yes, but not entirely. In the case of Rumi and Sufis, the Beloved (Absolute)is longed for like a lover, and this longing is the love and the lover . . . it is a perfect expression. Of course you find this in Everyday Zen, right, or even in Bill's insistence that all this is just 'sitting', -- nothing special. It is a way of bringing the Absolute right down into the mundane expression of the contingent -- Maya, Delusion, Dunya . . . Rumi sees our origins as endlessness that has been darkened by our faulty conditioning -- in short we are eternity . . . he often uses the absence of the Beloved (not realizing)to remind the lover . . . and to take the elixir, the wine, and become intoxicated with eternity (Allah, Absolute, Al Dhat, Void, God, etc) Of course, he was a Poet, so you have to enter into the framework through the eyes of a metaphysical poet. best wishes Kirk --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Kirk, Is that greed to be united with the Beloved - or are we compelled? Mike From: salik888 novelid...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 13 September, 2010 2:35:23 Subject: [Zen] Rumi -- Jewels of Remembrance  The Beloved has blocked every escape Friends, the Beloved has blocked every escape: we are lame deer and He a prowling lion. Cornered by a fierce and bloodthirsty lion what is there to do but surrender? This Beloved, like the sun, neither sleeps nor eats: He makes souls sleepless and hungry, saying, Come, be Me, or one with Me in nature, so when I unveil Myself, you may behold My Face. And if you had not beheld it, how would you have become so distraught? You were earth, and now you long to be quickened with spiritual life. Already the Beloved has bestowed gifts from that world of spacelessness, otherwise why would your spiritual eye keep gazing there? ~~~ Ay rafiqân râh-hâ-râ bast Yâr âhu-ye langim va U shir-e shekâr Joz keh taslim o rezâ ku châreh-'i dar kaff-e shir-e nari khun khvâreh-'i U na-dârad khvâb o khvor chon âftâb ruh-hâ-râ mi konad bi khvord o khvâb Keh Biyâ Man bâsh yâ ham ham khu-ye Man tâ be-bini dar tajalli Ru-ye Man Var na-didi chon chonin shaydâ shodi khâk budi tâleb-e ehyâ shodi Gar ze bi suyet na-dâdast U `alaf cheshm-e jânet chon be-mândast ân taraf -- Mathnawi VI: 576-581 Version by Camille and Kabir Helminski Rumi: Jewels of Remembrance Threshold Books, 1996 Persian transliteration courtesy of Yahyá Mona Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
Hi Kristy :-) I'll read what Bill has to say and await your next post on the subject :-) Artie --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthypl...@... wrote: *chuckles* Touche.. I think the current trend is known as integral Spirituality, spear-headed by Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber. (EnlighteNext Magazine). Sort of a meta-physical, mathmatical new age movement centered on consciousness. Other devotes include Barbara Marx Huibbard, Depak Chopra amd a host of inter-faith leaders which include zen monks and even Gempo Roshi. I'll share more on this topic later, as Bill offered some intriguing thoughts.. I wish it were a rainy day here today. I'm ready for a season change. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Other traditions
Hi Anthony- I just think the west romanticizes buddhism in general, all forms of it. But of course you're right, Tibetan Tantra is not buddhism. But how many westerners really understand that? That's part of my point. Westerners do not often grasp differences or details or deeper meanings when it comes to buddhism and other eastern spiritual practices :-( Artie --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Artie, What are you romanticising? Tibetan Tantra is not Buddhism, or you may call it renegade Buddhism. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
Hi Mike- I think what you've stated below is already happening, and is precisely because of the deep chasm between eastern and western thinking you also mentioned. Artie --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: I wonder tho, will a more western approach to Zen include it as 'just' part of a wider, eclectic system of religious/philisophical etc. study and practice - or will the efficacy of Zen be diluted by such an approach (the traditional Japanese viewpoint). Mike Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Rumi -- Jewels of Remembrance
Maybe: If one looks for zen in the absolute it goes into the relative, and if one looks for zen in the relative it goes into the absolute. . . ??? *grin* Artie --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@... wrote: In zen, the absolute is not Just This. To encounter the Absolute Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
