JMJM,
Thanks for your reply.
I've numbered your points so I can refer to them more easily.
The zen I practice, the items that seem to be the same are 3, 4, 5 and
6; although I'd have to investigate what you mean by 3 and 6 before I
could be 100% sure.
As you know I consider both chi and karma illusory, teaching tools at
best and comforting superstitions at worst.
...Bill!
From: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming
- ????
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 10:48 PM
To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
Hello Bill,
As always, thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me get some of
our definitions listed.
1. Chi is just a medium. The wisdom it contains is the spirit.
2. We all have chi, without it we die. Some can sense it. Some don't
care.
3. In Chan, only True Form is not illusion. Everything else is,
including this post of mine.
4. Every practice, no matter how different, is just a bridge. Some
longer and some shorter.
5. Some bridge enable us to help others more efficiently.
6. The end result is still the same -- liberate ourselves and others
from sufferings.
7. Depending on our karma, our paths are shaped.
Thank you as always,
JMJM
On 9/10/2010 6:24 AM, [email protected]
<mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> wrote:
JMJM,
Please don't take my posts as some kind of 'official' Zen Buddhist
position. It's not. It's my position and I'm willing to take
responsibility for it and explain it when asked.
If y
From: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming
- ????
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 12:30 PM
To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
I always know that Zen and Chan are the same in description, but
different in practice. Now I am certain the missing practice in Zen is
the "Mystic Inner Witness" practice or 『秘密內證法』 in Chinese.
[Bill!] I'm not sure what the 'Mystic Inner Witness' practice is, but
I think I can guess. It sounds like something described by many in the
West as the 'watcher' or the 'witness'. A bodiless awareness that
passively and exclusively observes. If it is this it is not taught in
Japanese Renzai/Soto Zen Buddhism. I have experienced this phenomenon
while sitting, and when I questioned my Roshi (Zen Teacher) about it
during dokusan (private interview) I was told to just ignore it, that
is was just maya (illusion). I did that and after a short while I
never experienced it again.
That's the reason Zen lost its spirituality and became an everyday
rationalization, as described by you.
[Bill!] 'Spirit' is defined by Merriam-Webster Online as:
"1: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical
organisms
2: a supernatural being or essence"
Using those definitions as a basis for 'spirituality', I think you are
referring to #1 - which I also think you call 'chi'. Again, during my
beginning Japanese Renzai Zen Buddhist training, and when working on
the 'breakthrough' koan 'Mu', I was encouraged to generate 'joriki',
which was described as a 'ball of energy, like a small fire, located
in my 'hara' (a spot just below the navel). I was told it would help
me build up my ability to focus and achieve the necessary
concentration that was necessary to pass the koan. After passing 'Mu'
I asked my Roshi about joriki and if I needed to continue to generate
and accumulate it. He replied that it was not necessary to do that
anymore, that it was a form of maya and that although useful as a
teaching technique it could actually become a hindrance when doing
Shikan taza (clear mind zazen) which is the direct expression of
Buddha Nature. So, if 'chi' is what you mean when you say 'Zen has
lost its spirituality', you are correct. It is necessary to discard
that along with all other illusions.
Well??
[Bill!] I am well, thank you. And you?
On 9/8/2010 9:00 PM, [email protected]
<mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> wrote:
JMJM,
You asked if "...Zen has a "mystic" practice?"
My short answer would be definitely NO.
My long answer would be: Buddhism may have mystical practices, and
therefore Zen Buddhism may also; but zen in and of itself is the
opposite of mysticism as the term is usually used. It is nothing
special. It is available to all sentient beings. It is just everyday
life. Zen practice is the 'cypress tree in the garden', 'three-pounds
of flax', 'a dried shit-stick'. Zen practice is Just THIS!
An addendum (long one) to my long answer is: I differentiate Zen
Buddhism and zen. I do not believe zen is co-dependent with,
exclusively associated with or a merely a sub-set of Buddhism. I do of
course recognize a sub-set or sect of Buddhism called 'Zen Buddhism'.
I refer to this in my posts as 'Zen' with an upper-case 'Z' to denote
it is a proper noun. I use 'zen', which I believe to simply be the
direct experience of reality, with a lower-case 'z' to refer to
non-denominational zen.
For me Zen Buddhism is a Buddhist expression of zen. It has taken the
essence of zen and has encased it with the religious dogma of
Buddhism. A further extension of this would be 'Japanese Zen Buddhism'
as contrasted with 'Korean Zen Buddhism'. These have been further
encased with culture values associated with the Japanese or Korean
cultures. This layering goes on and on and on until the layers are so
thick the kernel or essence which is zen is sometimes completely
obscured. This is also true of Christianity, and I believe all other
'religions'. In fact that is what I think most 'religions' are: a
stylized expression of zen - which as I said above very often puts
more emphasis on the layers of 'style' than the kernel of 'zen'.
I think there are certainly 'mystic practices' within most religions.
I think religions encourage the belief in 'mysticism' to protect the
layers they've overlaid on the basic kernel of zen, and to justify the
creation of hierarchies within the religion - like lay people, monks,
priests, prophets, 'mystics', etc... 'Mysticism' protects the religion
by shielding it from access by most of the 'lay people' so the upper
hierarchies, such as priest classes, can continue to define and
reinforce the adherence to the layers. Although 'mystics' are
sometimes seen as rouges and revolutionaries in a religion, they only
are allowed to do so under the watchful eye and approval of the
religions upper hierarchies. Of course some 'mystics' are not
accepted, and they are either denounced as 'heretics' or, if they are
popular enough, might succeed in breaking off a group into a sect or
even a new religion - such as Jesus did.
...Bill!
From: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming
- ????
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 12:56 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
Hello Bill and all,
Thank you for your answer. As we both know definitions are just
labels, my next question is whether Zen has a "mystic" practice?
Since Chan is the "Grand Mystic", the foundation of our Chan practice
is "Inner observation and witnessing the direction unification with
the universe, including all the phenomena as well as the life force
that caused everything."
Through this practice, there will be no conflict between our mind and
our heart. Both the logic and the universal truth will be one. The
discriminating mind will be wise to accept all.
What can you comment?
Thank you for your time to read my post,
JM
On 9/8/2010 12:40 AM, [email protected]
<mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> wrote:
JMJM,
You bring up a very good question.
According to Merriam-Webster Online the definitions of these words and
my opinion as how they could be applied to zen are:
MYSTICAL
1:a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent
to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence
[Bill!] Zen is not 'spiritual' and is definitely apparent to the
senses, so this definition doesn't seem to fit. Zen is however not
obvious, nor even accessible as far as I'm concerned, to the intelligence.
b : involving or having the nature of an individual's direct
subjective communion with God or ultimate reality
[Bill!] This is pretty close, although I would take out the words
'subjective' and 'God or ultimate' which leaves 'direct communion with
reality'.
MYSTICISM
1: the experience of MYSTICAL union or direct communion with ultimate
reality reported by MYSTICS
[Bill!] I could live with this definition.
2: the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or
ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as
intuition or insight)
[Bill!] Again, this is close, but I don't associate Buddha Nature with
intuition or insight - although I know in the West these could be used
as a poor substitute.
3:a : vague speculation : a belief without sound basis
[Bill!] I don't like this one at all.
b : a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive
acquisition of ineffable knowledge or power
[Bill!] This is pretty close. I like the word 'ineffable'. That
definitely fits. I don't like the words 'intuitive, acquisition,
knowledge and power'.
In English, 'mysticism' is generally associated with God or 'hidden'
knowledge or insight. I associate zen with just everyday stuff. It's
no big deal.
...Bill!
From: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming
- ????
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:14 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
Dear all,
I have a question. In Chinese, the Tibetan practice is literally
translated as the "Mystic Order", the Chan practice is literally
translated as the "Grand Mystic Order". Chan is the grand one, because
Rong-Shu Patriarch brought the Chan to Tibet and affected their practice.
In Chan 『秘密內證法』 "Mystic Inner Witness Dharma" means an inward
practice enabling heart to heart witness of Buddha. That's all. There
is really nothing mystic about it.
Is the term "mystic or mysticism" means the same as the I described
above or not?
Much obliged,
_/\_
JMJM
On 9/7/2010 8:13 AM, DP wrote:
That's kind of the point of the book. She is trying to bring mysticism
down to Earth, as it were. She wants to show that not only monks can
do it.
--- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
<billsm...@...> wrote:
>
> DP,
>
> I haven't heard of this book, but it does sound interesting.
>
> I don't, however, associate mysticism with zen, or with `seeing the
world as
> it is' (which I do associate with zen). How could anyone call that
> mysticism? Or with spiritualism as so many are wont to do?
>
> …Bill!
>
> From: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
> Of DP
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 9:22 PM
> To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
>
>
> I recently downloaded this ebook from a public domain site (the book is
> nearly 100 year old) and I have to say I'm very impressed with it.
Underhill
> was an ANglo-Catholic, but her main focus is on how anyone can
appreciate
> the mysticism of everyday life by seeing the world as it is, without
> categorization. I think this sounds very Zen, and I wonder if anyone
else
> had read it.
>
>
>
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--
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http://www.heartchan.org
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http://www.heartchan.org
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