[Zen] Buddha Heart Imprint - III
Good morning to all, I had the following conversation to share with you -- a comparison of before and after the transmission. Thank you. jm Original Message Subject:RE: Hello Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:40:44 + From: miao ming To: JMJM chan.j...@gmail.com Dear brother JMJM, Always good to hear from you, I trust all is well. As for timeline of witness.. The feelings of positive pressure and light within my heart and change of heart related to physical expression ( martial arts practice etc..) were like a light switch, I had never experienced anything related to this before, the change was profound and has never diminished since that moment of transmission. Seeing the three colors (and also occasionally purple) is new since meeting Master. I don't recall any color related significance during meditation before the meetings. Like the heart feelings it is very profound and constant now. Quite honestly they may have been there previously, but I didn't realize any significance if they were. The transparency to spiritual presence.. this I experienced previously, although not very frequently and not nearly as explicitly during qigong practice or during meditation. The difference now is it is very clear and very natural feeling, it doesn't feel like anything special... these formless entities need the same things as those of us currently in a body. Chan Ding-like states during meditation I had experienced before from time-to-time. Actually very similar, many lights as prelude then very clear truths made available. Prior to meeting Master these were infrequent and brief experiences, now quite often and much deeper. The charka energy flow is very similar to what i had been developing over the years through qigong/ traditional chinese medical practice. The Masters teaching feels more refined in its process and more focused on development of the self to higher levels of realization as opposed to qigong practice mostly focused on maintain health of the body or relieving dysfunctional states in others. Hope this is helpful, if I've only added to confusion, please don't hesitate to ask for a different perspective. until again, hands-to-palms miaoming Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:24:09 -0700 From: chan.j...@gmail.com To: miaoming Subject: Hello Dear Brother Miaoming, I have received one question - Was there any part of the witness you wrote occurred before you met our Master? Are they all unfold after you met our Master? I am also thinking of doing a news release on our website, as well as inviting you to our discussion group. Is that acceptable to you? The news release will include your photo, because during the ceremony, the telecast did not function until you finished talking. Other than those 2,500 in the same hall, no one knows what you look like. :-) Thank you, jm -- To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/
[Zen] Buddha Heart Imprint II
Good morning to All, Perhaps if you would, please allow me to share with you some of the labels used by my Teacher to interpret the witness of Juemiao Miaoming, recipient of Buddha Heart Imprint. The lineage of Chan is passed on two routes, the form and the formless. One without the other, is incomplete. Let me explain some of the details. The lineage of Chan is passed through and in sync both in archived lineage chart(form) as well as the Buddha Heart Imprint(formless). As we know the conversion to Chan is to convert to Buddha, Dharma, Sangha (form) and the Trikaya (formless). Buddha is the Nirmanakaya. Dharma is the Sambhogakaya and Shangha is the Nirmanakaya. Juemiao Miaoming's witness of the three color lights, as taught by my Teacher, are -- Gold is the Nirmanakaya, Red is the Nirmanakaya. Green is the Sambhogakaya. These are also the logo of our lineage. Juemiao Miaoming's witness of the intense white light in the Heart Chakra is the Kensho, which does not fade away. Which I have mentioned off and on throughout the years that I am on this forum. Juemiao Miaoming's witness of thousands of lights is what Buddha witnessed under the Bodhi tree before his enlightenment. As stated in our Master's Diamond Sutra DVD, these lights are not in the night sky, but inside our body. Juemiao Miaoming's heart felt connection of compassion and truth upon recipient of this transmission is what it is. I am grateful to have participated in witnessing this event and communicating to everyone. In short, a true transmission of Buddha Heart Imprint, from a non-English speaking master to a non-Chinese speaking desciple requires no word and only requires a single meeting of hearts. As Juemiao Miaoming said, this is an auspicious day. Thank you for your attention. BTW, if you would like to talk to Miaoming privately, he will be most delighted. Contact me and I will forward his private email. -- To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
[Zen] Japanese Movie on DoGen
http://vod.fjdh.com/MPlay/698/youku.html?playid=youku_1_1 -- To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Transmission of Buddha Heart Imprint
With palms together to everyone on the path to enlightenment, Mark Troxell has just been transmitted with Buddha Heart Imprint. Please watch this video for reference to the significance of Buddha Heart Imprint. http://youtu.be/poK46GEMktE In short, it is the original transmission from Buddha to MahaKasyapa. On his first and only meeting with our Master, he was so transmitted. Then on his second meeting, he was ordained with a dharma name of JueMiao MiaoMing in front of an assembly of 5,488 practitioners in Taiwan during the ceremony to celebrate our new organization of Shakyamuni World Salvation Foundation (tentative name). MiaoMing is the first person, within my knowledge, to be so transmitted. Below is his witness for your reference. Thank you for your attention. JM --- Within each of us is a light… My first introduction to sitting Ch’an was from a martial arts teacher that incorporated seated postures and belly breathing as essential aspects of the practice. He also advocated we develop an appreciation of the mind and spirit, not justbody..This was a spark that led me to study classics of sun zu, go rin no sho, lao tsu, chung tsu, kong zi, etc…and from there eventually into Buddhist doctrine and sutra study. I took up more formal and serious practice of zen from such places as Zen mountain monastery in upstate New York, Zen center of Pittsburgh, Dai Bosatsu Zendo and, Bahavana in West Virginia.. I practiced, took formal vows first within the Japanese ritual of jukai then a few years later in Theravada upasaka..Where ever I travelled in the world I’d seek a zen temple, monastery, practice group.. I learned much from great teachers and from sitting with dedicated people in living room meditation centers. I was inspired to open Dragonsgate. A Ch’an meditation center that provided free classes in body practice like taichi and qigong, study of zen classics, traditional Chinese medicine but always with meditation practice as the foundation for each of these. To deepen my practice I relocated to China about four years ago, and as result of practicing with the Shanghai Ch’an group had opportunity to be exposed to Master’s teaching, eventually meeting him a few months ago. Master and I had a wonderful talk after the session , discussing how Chinese medicine, qigong study are all integrated within his teaching, but that the real expression was not form based, but true spiritual practice.. I knew immediately all my previous years of learning, practice and study led me to this place, this point in time.. then Master offered me teaching, direct heart-to-heart.. and changed me… I experienced profound changes.. *Heart feeling*: positive pressure,( Like a balloon has been inflated inside my heart) intense white light in center of my heart, “tingle” or “sparkling” sensation. This feeling is constant, never goes away ,increases during meditation, reading sutra, or doing something “good”.. sometimes pressure is uncomfortable, but never painful.. grows as large as a room at times. *Change-of-heart*:martial arts, SCA, Kendo, etc..Many of these arts provide their training via consequence or negative reinforcement..(eg: if mind isn’t in the current moment you get hit, pain of impact reinforces to keep your mind focused) or through competition. After training daily in these arts since 1974, like a light switch, I now feel absolutely no desire to hit someone. Even though there is usually no physical injury in a practice session, I don’t want to cause pain or even fear of possible pain, as teaching. In a similar feeling, now I have no desire for competition, no desire to win at cost of someone else’ loss. My physical practice though ( taichi, qigong, shaolin weapons, western fencing, flipino arnis, kendo, etc…) is more intense, focused and higher level than before… can feel the qi flow through channels/charkas and even extended-projected external through the weapons much more clearly. *Sitting Ch’an* (meditation) *purifying*.. Gold, green, or purple energy gathers/condenses.. then drifts or “shoots away” sometimes athigh speed, to vanishing point.. sometimes with faces in the swirling energy mass… a definite feeling of energy leaving the body and mind.. feel “lighter’ or less full afterwards. Typically only these three colors, and by far mostly gold/green.. only ever saw “red” during the actual heart-to-heart transmission with Master, but over the next several weeks, red has been dominant at beginning and end of each of my meditations *Spiritual world transparency: *Sometimes see and/or feel essence or energy of other people/spirits in a room, sometimes human shape, sometimes just energy. This feels very natural like they have always been there, just unseen. Its like turning on a light in a darkened room and suddenly seeing much more
[Zen] Fwd: Unifying body, mind and spirit
This email contains graphics, so if you don't see them, view it in your browser http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=archivetask=viewmailid=16key=f6fd9b7dda92c424538baf373f7be902subid=1-e332d91116010238dbb38d3400ef30be. http://www.heartchan.org Buy this book to get started. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1456466410 Buy This Book To Get Started!($14.99) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1456466410 http://www.chan-meditation.org/class-list.html Learn Chan Meditation online! http://www.chan-meditation.org/class-list.html Dear All, I have learned from this video lecture. Hope you like it also. Please give us your comment. Thank you. BTW, there is no sound until the 1:45 mark. Sorry. 身心靈三位一體的修行觀 - Unifying body, mind and spirit http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_k2view=itemid=60:%E8%BA%AB%E5%BF%83%E9%9D%88%E4%B8%89%E4%BD%8D%E4%B8%80%E9%AB%94%E7%9A%84%E4%BF%AE%E8%A1%8C%E8%A7%80-unifying-body-mind-and-spirit About Us Heart Chan is the teaching of Grand Chan Master Wujue Miaotian. He is the 85th patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th patriarch since Bodhidarma and 48th patriarch of Linji School. He teaches that we all could be enlightened in this life. The Four Practices To Enlightenment Purity Purify our body, our mind and our spirit. Wisdom Detach from all forms. In Sync with the Heart of Buddha. Fulfillment Fulfill every encounter without question or expectation. Enlightenment True Nature Connects With Buddha. Follow meditatefirst on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/universalchan Not interested any more? Unsubscribe http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=usertask=optoutmailid=16subid=1key=e332d91116010238dbb38d3400ef30be
Re: [Zen] Introduction
Try this one, Denise. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1456466410 Authentic Chinese Chan Meditation.. Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 9/23/2011 12:13 PM, cann...@aol.com wrote: Thank you Chris, nice to meet you.. I will definitely check out the book you recommended. Denise -Original Message- From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net To: Zen_Forum Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:32 am Subject: Re: [Zen] Introduction Welcome. There is a decent book on how to sit zazen that explicitly by a person who also is Christian. Zen for Christians: a Beginners Guide, by Kim Boykin (with a blurb quote from my own teacher, Sensei Rosemary Dougherty). http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0787963763/ For having an easier relationship with your thoughts, knowledge of Buddhism isn't that great compared to sitting on a pillow for some time each day. I wouldn't say it makes controlling thoughts easier, it helps you to see that thoughts are just thoughts, not the same as life. Peacefulness can start with how you treat yourself: accepting the state of your brain as it is, not judging nor believing the thoughts is not so different than not judging whatever life is offering us right now. I grew up in North C arolina. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Sep 23, 2011, at 9:55, cann...@aol.com mailto:cann...@aol.com cann...@aol.com mailto:cann...@aol.com wrote: Hello all, My name is Denise, and I live in North Carolina. I am interested in the study of Zen and meditation practices as a way to bring peace of mind. I have only a very rudimentary knowledge of Buddhism, as my faith tradition is Christian, but as a result of stress and depression as of late, am seeking to really start putting some practical use to meditation. I've hoping it will be a useful tool to control negative thoughts, as well as help me be a more peaceful person as a whole. Thanks for being here, I look forward to sharing/learning with you. Denise
Re: [Zen] Mahayana II - beyond 7th 8th consciousness
Valuable post. Thank you Zendervish, In parallel to your description of such practice, we call it surpassing our habits vs. transcending conditioning. Same meaning but in different words. Habits, including our eating habits, sleeping habits etc. which creates a certain pattern and conditions our health. Habitual thinking and judgments, which limits our mind. Habitual comforts which limits our spirituality. Habits as we all know are like our second nature. Just to support your post. Thank you, jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 9/7/2011 8:07 AM, salik888 wrote: Hello One way of stepping outside the back and forth dilemma of Zen games is to see it in another system, (as if Zen were not a system?). In the case of Sufism they liberate spirit/self/no self from the tyranny of conditioning. Of course there are those who would even deny that we are conditioned or that conditioning even exists. As an exercise, should you want to participate, everyone reading this will have an internal response . . . where does that response come from? How did it get there? Did your father react in the way you do? Or a teacher you admired? Were you around someone who thought they knew and when you got older you realized they didn't know much? Who is doing the responding? And why do you internally respond the way you do? Questions of this sort . . . Etc etc . . . so education, life experiences, the theatre of your family dymanics, how short you are, how tall you are, genetics, inflation, damage, were you laughed at, did someone tell you you were smart, dumb, lovalle, unlovable -- and how much attention did you need and how much attention do you need now? -- all this has to do with conditioning. Liberation, in my estimation, has to do with inquiry, not knowing, exploration, and as the Zen Buddhists say, going beyond. Now we can ask, what are we being liberated from -- not in the general metaphysical one-up-manship sense of what I supposedly know, but taking the humility and courage to look at the false construct of -- you guessedit -- personality/ego . . . to bring ourselves back to function and capacity. Much is made in Zen and Sufism to go beyond the conventionally contrived identification of ego, to go beyond the Ego, or to say in a clever way, it doesn't exist. But who is doing the asserting of that? . . . Depth psychology, while limited, can be useful to shine a light into the dynamics of your Ego and the Self/No Self. In the same way, emphasis on one aspect of so called Zen or Chan etc, the cultural expression, is limited as well . . . what the Traditions provide, along with a good dose of modern pyschology, for secular modern folks, is a whole and holistic encounter with, shall we say, transcendence. (I realize words like enlightenment, satori, transcendence, etc are nebulous and loaded with all the wrong meanings these days, so I use them with a certain tongue in cheek) I would like to introduce a concept at this point . . . metabolism . . . to metabolize the experience in your life along with the presence of your being, the experience and encounter, not the automatic renderings of conditioned self/ego. To metabolize, and yes in terms of alchemy, the path of no path . . . the path no one takes but you -- no you. (Have to be careful with Zen/zen dudes, they are tricky with language) The Sufis call it the Nafs, and the lowest most base aspect of the Nafs is the Nafs-an-Ammarah . . . the conditioned personality . . . this is it of Gurdjieff's reference to man as machine -- mechanical, in terms of education of past experiences . . . While some are in the luxury of being fully evolved that they can have discussions of the end game -- enlightenment, no enlightenment, who is being enlightened, etc . . . most have to begin where they are, broken, damaged, etc . . . the conditioning of the human being can be used to sell soap products, war, ideologies, mass hysteria, and parochialism of every kind -- like, for instance, my zen is better than your Chan, etc . . . True enough, there are cases of sudden enlightenment, or so the history show us, but in reality, most of this has to do with composting and working the soil with your hands. Of course I am speaking about the raising of awareness of your/our dilemma . . . this post is not for those who already know what zen/Zen/Chan is. hope all is well best wishes zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: ED, Â I need liberation from suffering. If I am told there is no such thing as suffering, and no such thing as me to liberate from, That is just cheating and playing nonsensical game. Â Anthony --- On Tue, 6/9/11, ED
[Zen] The Lineage of Chan and Tradition - 禪宗法脈與傳承
Dear All, This 90 minute youtube video is one of six sessions at our retreat in Santa Cruz. http://youtu.be/poK46GEMktE It is bilingual addressing the The Lineage and Tradition of Chan by Jue Miao Ming Lian. She is one of our 40 teachers graduated from Buddhist Institute of Taiwan specializes in Buddhism. I learned a lot and hope you like it too. JM -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
Re: [Zen] Fwd: Re: [Zen Living] Supreme Vehicle
Hello Siska, Excellent inner observation. Thank you. We say in our school, let us not practice with our mind but with our heart. In order words, only when our mind is completely at rest, then compassion and wisdom rises from our heart, or spirit if you prefer. In the traditional Buddhist teaching, our mind is the seventh consciousness, and our subconsciousness is the eighth. We will be free only when we reach the ninth, Amala consciousness. Otherwise we are still being bombarded with our mind and subconsciousness. Any judgment of our notions, regardless of the final label is still functioning in the conscious domain and not in the spiritual domain. Let me know your comment. jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 9/5/2011 2:43 AM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi JM, Thanks for looking into this. This is why we must step off the top of that hunded foot pole of emptiness into the world of an awakened everyday. I believe distinction between the two is unnecessary. What is called awakened everyday is emptiness itself. I fully agree that we are subject to conventions and from time to time we need conventions. Unfortunately, identifying certain things as 'emptiness' or 'non-duality', while others as 'everyday world' or 'duality' is a duality view itself. In truth, Two and One are in support of one another. Here it seems that Rev Harvey makes distinction between Two and One. Are they really different at all? Are we present? Are we kind? Do we practice with a mindful heart? It has been a while since I began questioning this practice of questioning. I used to remind myself whether I was present, whether I have been kind today, whether I was mindful. At one point, I discovered that whatever answers I had for those questions are doubtful for words are ambiguous and I no longer know what being kind or mindful really means anymore beyond their conventional use. Siska *From: * Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com *Sender: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Date: *Sun, 04 Sep 2011 10:09:48 -0700 *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *ReplyTo: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Subject: *[Zen] Fwd: Re: [Zen Living] Supreme Vehicle Hello Siska, Below is a reply from Rev. Harvey in terminologies of Zen. Perhaps it will clarify some of the questions in your mind? jm Original Message Aha, Sensei, Indeed. It is transformation instead of elimination. The key of Chan practice lies in the way of challenging teaching awaken without ourselves. Too often we impose our practice onto others. In such case, we still are attached to dharma. I just loved your English. So much more depth in every word. As always, I found one new words I needed to look up from dictionary. Thank you for your sharing. jm On 9/4/2011 6:01 AM, Harvey Daiho Hilbert wrote: With respect to all, Good Morning JMJM, Thank you for the correction as regards your Order's hierarchy, although I will continue to see you as a Master. It is true that to see oneself as one with everything, there is a danger we will fall into a sort of quietism. This is why we must step off the top of that hunded foot pole of emptiness into the world of an awakened everyday. In Zen we step back from that pole in order to work for the freedom of all beings. We live in a world of two truths, the Universe is One and the Universe is not one. Realizing the Vast Impermenance of all things does not negate all things. Engaged practice, then, is a practice of going out into the world of the relative with an Absolute Mind. How we walk, talk, eat, and touch become teachers to those around us. Are we present? Are we kind? Do we practice with a mindful heart? These are profound, but beginning beginning steps, steps of a first order. A second order is more foundational. We practice to address the conditions within which duality is permitted to emerge. Notions of social stratification, distributive justice, and prejudice must be addressed directly, challenged, and transformed. I say /transformed/ rather than /eliminated/ because these causes of duality function for purposes that are usually righteous. The purposes of stratifacation, unequal distribution of goods and services, and prejudice often have more to do with fear and the consequent presumed need for self preservation than anything about the targets of these efforts. The goal may be righteous, but the method is problematic. When people have a self and fear the loss of things that support that self they will do all manner of things to protect it. So, our practice (for ourselves, as well as for others) is to cut through the delusion of a self, show
Re: [Zen] Fwd: Re: [Zen Living] Supreme Vehicle
Ah, ED. Biologically you are correct. Yet, Chan is a spiritual practice. It does not differentiate in sex. Let me ask the forum a question. Is Guanyin Bodhisattva a man or a woman? Do some research first. You will find interesting answers. :-) Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 9/5/2011 12:02 PM, ED wrote: Hi JMJM, I have always wondered: Are you are man or a woman? Is it the case that women usually come from their hearts/feelings, and men from their heads or their penises? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, JMJM wrote: Hi Mayka, Thank you for your input. Indeed, words are in the domain of our mind and does not tell the status of our heart. Every post of yours coming across represented your heart, to which I can connect. Thank you, jmlife...
Re: [Zen] Fwd: Re: [Zen Living] Supreme Vehicle
Important question, Ed. In our practice, we ask the practitioner to feel and sense some chakras in our body. In doing so, the practitioner can rest the mind and raise the awareness of the heart. The heart is where our spirit(self-nature) reside as well as our loving kindness and happiness. Can we imagine love or force happiness with our mind? :-) Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 9/5/2011 12:05 PM, ED wrote: Hello JMJM, Where can one find the switch from mind to heart? Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hello Siska, We say in our school, let us not practice with our mind but with our heart. jm
Re: [Zen] Fwd: Re: [Zen Living] Supreme Vehicle
Anthony, All of a sudden you become so serious. Now you took the fun out of my question. Sigh... Actually there are other stories are the sex of Guanyin. :-) Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 9/5/2011 3:10 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Guanyin (avalokiteshvara), as a being in the bodhisatva realm, is beyond gender. Beings in the formless heavens don't differentiate between sexes, let alone bodhisatvas, which are higher. Whether you see Guanyin as a female, or Tibetans see it as a male, is completely something from your 'heart'. Anthony --- On *Tue, 6/9/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Fwd: Re: [Zen Living] Supreme Vehicle To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 6 September, 2011, 6:04 AM Ah, ED. Biologically you are correct. Yet, Chan is a spiritual practice. It does not differentiate in sex. Let me ask the forum a question. Is Guanyin Bodhisattva a man or a woman? Do some research first. You will find interesting answers. :-) Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/ On 9/5/2011 12:02 PM, ED wrote: Hi JMJM, I have always wondered: Are you are man or a woman? Is it the case that women usually come from their hearts/feelings, and men from their heads or their penises? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, JMJM wrote: Hi Mayka, Thank you for your input. Indeed, words are in the domain of our mind and does not tell the status of our heart. Every post of yours coming across represented your heart, to which I can connect. Thank you, jmlife...
[Zen] Mahayana II - beyond 7th 8th consciousness
Dear All, After discussing with several different groups, I have the following synopsis to share with everyone. * To truly be able to free others, we must free ourselves from our mind first. * If we are trying to label the kind of notion arising internally while focusing on others, then we are still practicing with our mind. * If we have any notion at all while focusing on others, then our heart is still not pure enough. Thus our compassion may still be somewhat self-serving. * The practice of Mahayana is to focus completely on the suffering of others. Fulfill every encounter without question. However the wisdom from our heart dictates us. * Upon each encounter, each mental hindrance from others blocking the connection of our heart is an excellent time for us to be completely detached from all dharma, and let our heart shine through. And allow our actions and words to be executed with wisdom, thus dissolving insecurity or fear. * Mahayana practice is most beneficial when we are able to completely abandon every thread of dharma in our mind and recognize the fact that every moment contains its own dharma. * When our mind reaches no mind, we recognize all the cause and effect of all phenomena as a continuing and inter-related event. * The Mahayana practice is a practice for the enhancement of heart over mind reaching pure compassion and loving kindness. Buddha heart is the heart of all sentient beings. * The Mahayana practice is a practice enable us to surpass our seventh and eighth consciousness, (mind and subconsciousness) and reach the ninth consciousness, which is pure light, pure heart and pure spirit. Thank you all for all of your input and your attention. jm -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
[Zen] Supreme Vehicle
Good morning Sensei, Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I am just a practitioner of Chan and not a master. A master in our school means someone who is enlightened and has received Buddha Heart Imprint, while I have neither. Since Zen does recognize the Mahayana practice, then please let me share some of the discussions we had recently in our school As we know, Hinayana is often called the Small Vehicle and Mahayana is the Great Vehicle. And in China, the Chan is called the Supreme Vehicle. It means that Chan could free everyone. It is true, when others are enlightened, we are enlightened. The danger of this realization is the rationalization that we only need to work on ourselves. If so, then we are only practicing Hinayana. We did not do the circular track of Chan. The Mahayana practice is a practice, only when we leave our lotus and step into the mud, could we than detach ourselves from the limitation of our practice and our dharma. In other words, as we focus on the difficulty in freeing others, could we then realize how limited we are in wisdom and energy in resolving their karmic hindrance. Only then we could be motivated to continuously surpassing our habitual practice, form and formless. In turn to realize that Dharma is not dharma. No dharma is dharma. Then we would know dharma is in every encounter. It is up to us to be one with it. Only then we are liberated from the rationalization of our mind and awaken to the fact that the One of Chan is the ALL. This realization occurs when we journey midway into the freeing of each one, as a Supreme Vehicle. Too often we quit by rationalizing to ourselves that this practice is not for everyone. Or the time is not right, or whatever excuses we place upon our practice. If so, we have trapped ourselves into believing that our current practice is the only path. The practice of Supreme Vehicle is every practice in each moment, in each encounter, without self, without other, without dharma, without form, without notion, etc. To free all beings is not to impose our practice upon them, but rather let them awaken from within. The only way we could accomplish that is to speak in their language in their mindset and help them to resolve whatever there needs to be resolve in resources, mindset or life force. In other words, we needed to be them and undertake their karma. Thus the mud is the lotus and lotus is the mud and they both grow in tandem. To phrase it in beautiful labels, Mahayana is the journey for Bodhisattva, Supreme Vehicle is the journey for Buddha, who is the one and all and us and everyone. Thank you all for your attention, JMJM Head Teacher Order Of Chan Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 9/1/2011 9:49 PM, Harvey Daiho Hilbert wrote: With palms together, Good Evening Everyone, On the Zen Living list, Ch’an Master Jue Miao Jing Ming , asked me a question the other day. “Dear Sensei, Do you consider Zen a Mahayana practice? If so, what does Mahayana actually do?” While Zen is within the Mahayana tradition, it is not a Mahayana practice as I understand it.Student Rev. Shoji and I were discussing this question today and Rev. Shoji brought up an interesting distinction.He argued that Mahayana Buddhists aim at the Bodhisattva ideal to free all beings before they, themselves, enter nirvana.He points out that from a Zen point of view, self and other are one, therefore there is no one, but oneself, to free. Zen Master Seung Sahn argues in his Compass, that both Theravadan and Mahayane traditions have “roads,” but that Zen has not only no road, but no map, as well.The practice is practice realization as one.Path and destination are not two. These beg the question, however, “What does Mahayana actually do?” Mahayana does nothing.Mahayana is just a word.And we can see from the question that such things as words and concepts can create a hindrance.We could ask a better question, “What is Mahayana /practice /and what does it do?” The aim of the practice is to free beings, but how? Again, Master Sahn offers the Six Paramitas as “practice guides.”They are rather like the manifest value in the nexus between idea and behavior, rather like the term “Quality” as used in Pirsig’s “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.” A Mahayana practitioner practices to make manifest the six aspects of our true nature in the hope that to do so will free suffering beings. A Zen practitioner, however realizes practice and life are one, that everything is already free, perfect as it is, but that we jail ourselves with our thoughts.A Zen practitioner notices and ceases all grasping: no attachment to ideas, desires, things, feelings, etc. A Zen practitioner is free and easy
Re: [Zen] Supreme Vehicle
Anthony, Just practice and you shall witness. These posts of mine are in the spiritual domain and not in the logical domain. jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 9/3/2011 2:47 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Thank you for your impressive presentation. However, I have a question here. Is it possible to save others without saving yourself first? Take for example Bill's story of a plane falling drastically from sky losing air pressure. You find a small kid sitting next to you. Do you put on the oxygen mask for yourself first, or help the kid with that first? One of my friends who is a bodhisatva fan insists that you should save the kid first. He stops short of saying whether in doing that you may kill yourself for lack of oxygen, or maybe the kid as well before you have enough energy to save him. Furthermore, can a womanizer, profiteer or pedophile save the world? Gakusei Anthony --- On *Sun, 4/9/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Supreme Vehicle To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, heartc...@googlegroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Sunday, 4 September, 2011, 1:08 AM Good morning Sensei, Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I am just a practitioner of Chan and not a master. A master in our school means someone who is enlightened and has received Buddha Heart Imprint, while I have neither. Since Zen does recognize the Mahayana practice, then please let me share some of the discussions we had recently in our school As we know, Hinayana is often called the Small Vehicle and Mahayana is the Great Vehicle. And in China, the Chan is called the Supreme Vehicle. It means that Chan could free everyone. It is true, when others are enlightened, we are enlightened. The danger of this realization is the rationalization that we only need to work on ourselves. If so, then we are only practicing Hinayana. We did not do the circular track of Chan. The Mahayana practice is a practice, only when we leave our lotus and step into the mud, could we than detach ourselves from the limitation of our practice and our dharma. In other words, as we focus on the difficulty in freeing others, could we then realize how limited we are in wisdom and energy in resolving their karmic hindrance. Only then we could be motivated to continuously surpassing our habitual practice, form and formless. In turn to realize that Dharma is not dharma. No dharma is dharma. Then we would know dharma is in every encounter. It is up to us to be one with it. Only then we are liberated from the rationalization of our mind and awaken to the fact that the One of Chan is the ALL. This realization occurs when we journey midway into the freeing of each one, as a Supreme Vehicle. Too often we quit by rationalizing to ourselves that this practice is not for everyone. Or the time is not right, or whatever excuses we place upon our practice. If so, we have trapped ourselves into believing that our current practice is the only path. The practice of Supreme Vehicle is every practice in each moment, in each encounter, without self, without other, without dharma, without form, without notion, etc. To free all beings is not to impose our practice upon them, but rather let them awaken from within. The only way we could accomplish that is to speak in their language in their mindset and help them to resolve whatever there needs to be resolve in resources, mindset or life force. In other words, we needed to be them and undertake their karma. Thus the mud is the lotus and lotus is the mud and they both grow in tandem. To phrase it in beautiful labels, Mahayana is the journey for Bodhisattva, Supreme Vehicle is the journey for Buddha, who is the one and all and us and everyone. Thank you all for your attention, JMJM Head Teacher Order Of Chan Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/ On 9/1/2011 9:49 PM, Harvey Daiho Hilbert wrote: With palms together, Good Evening Everyone, On the Zen Living list, Ch’an Master Jue Miao Jing Ming , asked me a question the other day. “Dear Sensei, Do you consider Zen a Mahayana
[Zen] Mahayana
Dear Forum, Do you consider Zen/zen/your practice a Mahayana practice? If so, how does Mahayana actually practice? What is its core teaching? Thank you in advance, jm -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
Re: [Zen] An example of Absolute Emptiness
Hi Mayka, Not sure you are making a statement or a question. It is wonderful for us to give. Just initiating the notion of giving without being told is respectable. At the least, it is so written in Bibles and taught by many. If we dig deeper into this notion, there are two kinds of notions. One is produce through the reaction to all the forms of our conscious mind, the other is pure heart detached from all forms. Feeling deceived is because we still have an ego, an conscious mind. When the notions is from our heart, it is pure. Pure compassion. This is what Vilamakirti is talking about. Thank you for responding. jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/23/2011 6:23 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: JMJM; We often give away because that makes us feel good about ourselves. This is a kind of giving away based in self. And so when the experience turns out unpleasant then we feel as we were deceived. But no one told us to give away in the first place!. Mayka --- On *Mon, 22/8/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] An example of Absolute Emptiness To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Monday, 22 August, 2011, 17:50 In chapter V of Vimalakirti sutra, he talked about absolute emptiness. I shall translate from Chinese for your reference, the English I use more than likely will not match your search result online. Why do we often feeling tired or disgusted on our journey of ferrying others with kindness and good intentions? If you do, please read on... It is so because our compassion in our hearts derives from form and not arise from within. In other words, we feeling tired is because our compassion is from our mind and not from our heart. A consciousness-based compassion is based on form, logic, give and take, balance, purpose and objective. This kind of compassion has a purpose and result oriented, otherwise it can not balance itself. The compassion rises from our hearts are pure giving. Our heart syncs with the hearts of others, and knowing that we are all deluded by our mind and not seeing that everything is just endless illusions of cause and effect. Our hearts are one of the same. Upon this synchronization of hearts, our mind would quiet. We would be able to function with joy and dedication, continuously, effortlessly, naturally and instinctively, with our pure heart. Thank you for your time, JMJM Head Teacher Order of Chan -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/
Re: [Zen] An example of Absolute Emptiness
Hi Anthony, It is for me to say and for you to figure out. Thank you for reading my post. jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/22/2011 2:46 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, I always run into trouble with the kind of your remark: 'we feeling tired is because our compassion is from our mind and not from our heart' Since both words are represented by 'xin' in Chinese, would your teacher say,' our feeling tired is because our compassion is from our xin and not from our xin? Anthony --- On *Tue, 23/8/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] An example of Absolute Emptiness To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 August, 2011, 12:50 AM In chapter V of Vimalakirti sutra, he talked about absolute emptiness. I shall translate from Chinese for your reference, the English I use more than likely will not match your search result online. Why do we often feeling tired or disgusted on our journey of ferrying others with kindness and good intentions? If you do, please read on... It is so because our compassion in our hearts derives from form and not arise from within. In other words, we feeling tired is because our compassion is from our mind and not from our heart. A consciousness-based compassion is based on form, logic, give and take, balance, purpose and objective. This kind of compassion has a purpose and result oriented, otherwise it can not balance itself. The compassion rises from our hearts are pure giving. Our heart syncs with the hearts of others, and knowing that we are all deluded by our mind and not seeing that everything is just endless illusions of cause and effect. Our hearts are one of the same. Upon this synchronization of hearts, our mind would quiet. We would be able to function with joy and dedication, continuously, effortlessly, naturally and instinctively, with our pure heart. Thank you for your time, JMJM Head Teacher Order of Chan -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/
Re: [Zen] An example of Absolute Emptiness
Hello Mayka， Indeed. JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/23/2011 9:03 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: *JMJM;* *Just giving different perspectives of the theme giving away. * ** *If the giving away is out of a notion then the giving away will be in the self. If the giving away is in the self then that given away is not a real giving away but a giving away with a purpose, the purpose of feeling good about ourselves. We think that we do that giving away for others but that is not true, we do that for the pleasure we get out through that giving away. * *Mayka* --- On *Tue, 23/8/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] An example of Absolute Emptiness To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 August, 2011, 15:47 Hi Mayka, Not sure you are making a statement or a question. It is wonderful for us to give. Just initiating the notion of giving without being told is respectable. At the least, it is so written in Bibles and taught by many. If we dig deeper into this notion, there are two kinds of notions. One is produce through the reaction to all the forms of our conscious mind, the other is pure heart detached from all forms. Feeling deceived is because we still have an ego, an conscious mind. When the notions is from our heart, it is pure. Pure compassion. This is what Vilamakirti is talking about. Thank you for responding. jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/ On 8/23/2011 6:23 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: JMJM; We often give away because that makes us feel good about ourselves. This is a kind of giving away based in self. And so when the experience turns out unpleasant then we feel as we were deceived. But no one told us to give away in the first place!. Mayka --- On *Mon, 22/8/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] An example of Absolute Emptiness To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Monday, 22 August, 2011, 17:50 In chapter V of Vimalakirti sutra, he talked about absolute emptiness. I shall translate from Chinese for your reference, the English I use more than likely will not match your search result online. Why do we often feeling tired or disgusted on our journey of ferrying others with kindness and good intentions? If you do, please read on... It is so because our compassion in our hearts derives from form and not arise from within. In other words, we feeling tired is because our compassion is from our mind and not from our heart. A consciousness-based compassion is based on form, logic, give and take, balance, purpose and objective. This kind of compassion has a purpose and result oriented, otherwise it can not balance itself. The compassion rises from our hearts are pure giving. Our heart syncs with the hearts of others, and knowing that we are all deluded by our mind and not seeing that everything is just endless illusions of cause and effect. Our hearts are one of the same. Upon this synchronization of hearts, our mind would quiet. We would be able to function with joy and dedication, continuously, effortlessly, naturally and instinctively, with our pure heart. Thank you for your time, JMJM Head Teacher Order of Chan -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http
[Zen] An example of Absolute Emptiness
In chapter V of Vimalakirti sutra, he talked about absolute emptiness. I shall translate from Chinese for your reference, the English I use more than likely will not match your search result online. Why do we often feeling tired or disgusted on our journey of ferrying others with kindness and good intentions? If you do, please read on... It is so because our compassion in our hearts derives from form and not arise from within. In other words, we feeling tired is because our compassion is from our mind and not from our heart. A consciousness-based compassion is based on form, logic, give and take, balance, purpose and objective. This kind of compassion has a purpose and result oriented, otherwise it can not balance itself. The compassion rises from our hearts are pure giving. Our heart syncs with the hearts of others, and knowing that we are all deluded by our mind and not seeing that everything is just endless illusions of cause and effect. Our hearts are one of the same. Upon this synchronization of hearts, our mind would quiet. We would be able to function with joy and dedication, continuously, effortlessly, naturally and instinctively, with our pure heart. Thank you for your time, JMJM Head Teacher Order of Chan -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
Re: [Zen] Re: Comfort
Thank you Edgar and Bill for your input. If I understand Edgar correct, reality is to recognize that the world we experience is an illusion, then would it not be called delusion? It is not an misinterpretation, but a fascination? Is my question important? Absolutely not.. Now, may I share with you what does my Teacher say what the Final Reality is. I must also state clearly, I personally have not fully witness this yet. He said, There are four states of Chan Ding, (Jhana I guess), Right Ding, Grand Ding, Deep Ding and Profound Ding. After we enter into Profound Ding, we shall experience the Final Reality. It is a world of lights beyond time and space. jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/20/2011 5:16 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Hi Bill, In 1. and 2. below you correctly represent my views. On point 1. if you agree that what we experience is not the actual real external reality but an internal representation that is distorted by our senses then why don't you agree with me that it's an illusion to believe that what we experience is real? The truth is that the world we think we experience and live in is entirely our mind's representation of that world and not that actual world itself. We don't experience the world, we represent the world in terms of our own perceptual and cognitive nature. If we believe we actually experience the real world (reality) as it is that's illusion. However if we understand that the world we experience is an illusion created by our senses and recognize that it is illusion then that is reality. Edgar On Aug 19, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Edgar and my understanding (or at least the communication of our understanding) of the concepts of 'reality' and 'illusion' are not the same. In my opinion reality does exist. It is the only thing that exists. All else is illusion. I didn't comment on Edgar's recent post on this subject, but I did think about commenting. I will now. You state below that your reading of Edgar's recent post is that: ...reality...means the physical detectable phenomenon [by means of sensory organs] at the present moment. I don't think that's what Edgar meant. That is, however, what I mean. I think Edgar's point in his post was that reality is unknowable and that even the experience we receive through our human sensory organs are illusory for perhaps two reasons: 1. The phenomena is translated by our sensory organs from their original form to electrical impulses, so in that sense they are 'illusions' or only a representation of reality. (I'm not sure if this is what Edgar meant, but if it is I disagree with him.) 2. Human sensory organs have limitations, like the inability to sense infrared light, or sounds that are lower or higher than our auditory organs can detect. The result of that is that we cannot experience the totality of reality. (I agree with him on his premise but do not believe this fact has any significance. For me Buddha Nature is the direct experience of reality, not necessarily the direct experience of the totality of reality. This is a very minor point (for me) and one which I said is moot for me.) ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 蜺åœ˙ç”≤æ˘⁄ chan.jmjm@... wrote: Bill again, If reality does not exist, depending on your definition of reality of course, then everything is a delusion? Because there is no base for the illusion. I already sensed that Edgar's definition of reality may not be the same as I understood it to be. It seems to me, that Edgar's reality in his recent post, means the physical detectable phenomenon at the present moment. Is my understanding correct or wrong? Please comment. Thank you, jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/ On 8/19/2011 2:25 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Thanks for your answer. The English words 'illusion' and 'delusion' have slightly different meanings to me. 'Illusion' for me implies deception or misinterpretation. In other words an illusion is based on something real but is a misrepresenation of it. 'Delusion' for me implies a false belief, something with no real basis whatsoever. In other words a delusion is not based on anything real at all. It is also associated with mental illness - psychosis. The belief that you have a individual and unique 'self' is what I would call
Re: [Zen] Re: Comfort
Hello Bill, Thank you for your detailed explanation. I understand and learned the difference now. Let me asked the forum, the Three Poison in Buddhism, Greed, Anger and Delusion. Or is it Illusion. What's the difference in this case, if any. Thank you in advance. jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/19/2011 2:25 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Thanks for your answer. The English words 'illusion' and 'delusion' have slightly different meanings to me. 'Illusion' for me implies deception or misinterpretation. In other words an illusion is based on something real but is a misrepresenation of it. 'Delusion' for me implies a false belief, something with no real basis whatsoever. In other words a delusion is not based on anything real at all. It is also associated with mental illness - psychosis. The belief that you have a individual and unique 'self' is what I would call an illusion. The belief that your individaul and unique 'self' is Napoleon Bonaparte or Jesus Christ is what I would call a delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hello Bill, These are important questions addressing the foundations of Chan. Thank you for asking. Your definition of zen is very close to Chan. My teacher said, Buddhism is a label applied to Shakyamuni's teaching, after he witness the truth of the universe. Jesus also began to teach after he witness the same truth.For centuries before Buddhism, Chinese always practice unification of 'man and universe'. This truth is labeled as Chan. (3/31/1993) Most scholars in China recognize and practice 'Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon', the bible for Chinese civilization. Qigong, acupuncture, fengshui, ying and yang all derived from this. The fundamental principle it preaches is oneness. It is 5,000 year old. So after you and I witness the same truth, we can establish Billism and Donaldism. :-) Come to think of it perhaps, the English word I use in place of illusion is delusion. Delusion is the projection of our conscious mind. Delusion is the dream we live in and out each moment. Delusion is the cover of our innate spirit. Delusion is what we need to wake up from. Delusion is not not-knowing, but an assumption of already-know. When the I know already occurs, then the heart is covered up. Heart stops to feel, to connect, to act. My Teachers does not even use delusion, he called it the conscious mind vs. the original heart. (for Anthony, æ„è˜å¿ƒ vs 本心） In short, delusion is produced by the seven consciousness. The eighth is somewhat beyond our control, yet it adds gasoline to the fire. :-( Because Chan is just a way to witness the universal truth. Chan itself has no word and no formula. Chan borrows what is convenient at the moment to awake the delusional mind. Bible, Koran or any sutra are all words we can borrow for that purpose. Words are really for soothing the delusion so that it will not block our entry into the inner spirit. Yet, without a powerful practice, our delusional mind are very very difficult to be shredded into pieces. Yes, it is our ego, as some would call it. However, the practice of Chan is an energy game. Ever since the big bang, the universe is manifested by this life force through cause and effect. Edgar call it, ontology, I believe. We are all energy beings. Without this energy, or Qi, we all die. Qi is the underlying support of all manifestation. Chan is a simple and basic. The practice of Chan enables us to see the wisdom in everything. I mean everything. To be more exact, the root of everything, or the cause of everything, or the truth of everything. To me, Chan is the absolute practice, because once you get it. You'll realize Chan is one and all. There will be no more judgment, heartache, worries, up and downs. Everything will be so clear. I mean everything. On the other hand, if Chan can not be applied to everything, it is not the absolute answer, or we did not really get it, or we are still living in our own delusional mind, or simply thinking. Just realized that it was a bit long. I am sorry. I hope it answers some of your questions. These are good fundamental questions. Thank you for granting me the opportunity to share. jm On 8/18/2011 12:22 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Thanks for your answer. I know that the concept of 'maya' is a fundamental teaching of Buddhism. I always had assumed that Chan was 'Chan Buddhism' and had/claimed a Buddhist foundation. I guess I was wrong. Does Chan only recognize the Heart and Dimond Sutras, and none of the others? Why does Chan use a lot of Buddhist language What would you call the concept
Re: [Zen] Re: Comfort
Bill again, If reality does not exist, depending on your definition of reality of course, then everything is a delusion? Because there is no base for the illusion. I already sensed that Edgar's definition of reality may not be the same as I understood it to be. It seems to me, that Edgar's reality in his recent post, means the physical detectable phenomenon at the present moment. Is my understanding correct or wrong? Please comment. Thank you, jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/19/2011 2:25 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Thanks for your answer. The English words 'illusion' and 'delusion' have slightly different meanings to me. 'Illusion' for me implies deception or misinterpretation. In other words an illusion is based on something real but is a misrepresenation of it. 'Delusion' for me implies a false belief, something with no real basis whatsoever. In other words a delusion is not based on anything real at all. It is also associated with mental illness - psychosis. The belief that you have a individual and unique 'self' is what I would call an illusion. The belief that your individaul and unique 'self' is Napoleon Bonaparte or Jesus Christ is what I would call a delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hello Bill, These are important questions addressing the foundations of Chan. Thank you for asking. Your definition of zen is very close to Chan. My teacher said, Buddhism is a label applied to Shakyamuni's teaching, after he witness the truth of the universe. Jesus also began to teach after he witness the same truth.For centuries before Buddhism, Chinese always practice unification of 'man and universe'. This truth is labeled as Chan. (3/31/1993) Most scholars in China recognize and practice 'Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon', the bible for Chinese civilization. Qigong, acupuncture, fengshui, ying and yang all derived from this. The fundamental principle it preaches is oneness. It is 5,000 year old. So after you and I witness the same truth, we can establish Billism and Donaldism. :-) Come to think of it perhaps, the English word I use in place of illusion is delusion. Delusion is the projection of our conscious mind. Delusion is the dream we live in and out each moment. Delusion is the cover of our innate spirit. Delusion is what we need to wake up from. Delusion is not not-knowing, but an assumption of already-know. When the I know already occurs, then the heart is covered up. Heart stops to feel, to connect, to act. My Teachers does not even use delusion, he called it the conscious mind vs. the original heart. (for Anthony, æ„è˜å¿ƒ vs 本心） In short, delusion is produced by the seven consciousness. The eighth is somewhat beyond our control, yet it adds gasoline to the fire. :-( Because Chan is just a way to witness the universal truth. Chan itself has no word and no formula. Chan borrows what is convenient at the moment to awake the delusional mind. Bible, Koran or any sutra are all words we can borrow for that purpose. Words are really for soothing the delusion so that it will not block our entry into the inner spirit. Yet, without a powerful practice, our delusional mind are very very difficult to be shredded into pieces. Yes, it is our ego, as some would call it. However, the practice of Chan is an energy game. Ever since the big bang, the universe is manifested by this life force through cause and effect. Edgar call it, ontology, I believe. We are all energy beings. Without this energy, or Qi, we all die. Qi is the underlying support of all manifestation. Chan is a simple and basic. The practice of Chan enables us to see the wisdom in everything. I mean everything. To be more exact, the root of everything, or the cause of everything, or the truth of everything. To me, Chan is the absolute practice, because once you get it. You'll realize Chan is one and all. There will be no more judgment, heartache, worries, up and downs. Everything will be so clear. I mean everything. On the other hand, if Chan can not be applied to everything, it is not the absolute answer, or we did not really get it, or we are still living in our own delusional mind, or simply thinking. Just realized that it was a bit long. I am sorry. I hope it answers some of your questions. These are good fundamental questions. Thank you for granting me the opportunity to share. jm On 8/18/2011 12:22 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Thanks for your answer. I know that the concept of 'maya' is a fundamental teaching of Buddhism. I always had assumed that Chan was 'Chan Buddhism' and had/claimed a Buddhist foundation. I
Re: [Zen] Re: Comfort
Ok, Edgar, Got it. Just want to make sure I understood it the same as you stated. Thank you. To make it interesting, to me even what you called reality, is not real, in my definition, because it is just a fleeting moment of effects caused by generations of causes. Everything is just a string of changes. Under this kind of macro perspective, would you still call it reality? Or is this reality you defined the general definition of the word. While its nature is still emptiness? Please clarify for my reference. Much obliged, jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/19/2011 3:47 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: Yes, reality exists only in the present moment. The present moment is reality. The present moment is common across the entire universe but each observer experiences it differently depending on his location and his nature. The past does not exist and is not real, only its memories in the present are real. The future has never existed and thus cannot be real. Only the razor's edge of time in the present moment is real. Edgar On Aug 19, 2011, at 6:18 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: Bill again, If reality does not exist, depending on your definition of reality of course, then everything is a delusion? Because there is no base for the illusion. I already sensed that Edgar's definition of reality may not be the same as I understood it to be. It seems to me, that Edgar's reality in his recent post, means the physical detectable phenomenon at the present moment. Is my understanding correct or wrong? Please comment. Thank you, jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/19/2011 2:25 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Thanks for your answer. The English words 'illusion' and 'delusion' have slightly different meanings to me. 'Illusion' for me implies deception or misinterpretation. In other words an illusion is based on something real but is a misrepresenation of it. 'Delusion' for me implies a false belief, something with no real basis whatsoever. In other words a delusion is not based on anything real at all. It is also associated with mental illness - psychosis. The belief that you have a individual and unique 'self' is what I would call an illusion. The belief that your individaul and unique 'self' is Napoleon Bonaparte or Jesus Christ is what I would call a delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hello Bill, These are important questions addressing the foundations of Chan. Thank you for asking. Your definition of zen is very close to Chan. My teacher said, Buddhism is a label applied to Shakyamuni's teaching, after he witness the truth of the universe. Jesus also began to teach after he witness the same truth.For centuries before Buddhism, Chinese always practice unification of 'man and universe'. This truth is labeled as Chan. (3/31/1993) Most scholars in China recognize and practice 'Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon', the bible for Chinese civilization. Qigong, acupuncture, fengshui, ying and yang all derived from this. The fundamental principle it preaches is oneness. It is 5,000 year old. So after you and I witness the same truth, we can establish Billism and Donaldism. :-) Come to think of it perhaps, the English word I use in place of illusion is delusion. Delusion is the projection of our conscious mind. Delusion is the dream we live in and out each moment. Delusion is the cover of our innate spirit. Delusion is what we need to wake up from. Delusion is not not-knowing, but an assumption of already-know. When the I know already occurs, then the heart is covered up. Heart stops to feel, to connect, to act. My Teachers does not even use delusion, he called it the conscious mind vs. the original heart. (for Anthony, æ„è˜å¿ƒ vs 本心） In short, delusion is produced by the seven consciousness. The eighth is somewhat beyond our control, yet it adds gasoline to the fire. :-( Because Chan is just a way to witness the universal truth. Chan itself has no word and no formula. Chan borrows what is convenient at the moment to awake the delusional mind. Bible, Koran or any sutra are all words we can borrow for that purpose. Words are really for soothing the delusion so that it will not block our entry into the inner spirit. Yet, without a powerful practice, our delusional mind are very very difficult to be shredded into pieces. Yes, it is our ego, as some would call it. However, the practice of Chan
[Zen] Re: Comfort
Hello Bill, These are important questions addressing the foundations of Chan. Thank you for asking. Your definition of zen is very close to Chan. My teacher said, Buddhism is a label applied to Shakyamuni's teaching, after he witness the truth of the universe. Jesus also began to teach after he witness the same truth.For centuries before Buddhism, Chinese always practice unification of 'man and universe'. This truth is labeled as Chan. (3/31/1993) Most scholars in China recognize and practice 'Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon', the bible for Chinese civilization. Qigong, acupuncture, fengshui, ying and yang all derived from this. The fundamental principle it preaches is oneness. It is 5,000 year old. So after you and I witness the same truth, we can establish Billism and Donaldism. :-) Come to think of it perhaps, the English word I use in place of illusion is delusion. Delusion is the projection of our conscious mind. Delusion is the dream we live in and out each moment. Delusion is the cover of our innate spirit. Delusion is what we need to wake up from. Delusion is not not-knowing, but an assumption of already-know. When the I know already occurs, then the heart is covered up. Heart stops to feel, to connect, to act. My Teachers does not even use delusion, he called it the conscious mind vs. the original heart. (for Anthony, 意識心 vs 本心） In short, delusion is produced by the seven consciousness. The eighth is somewhat beyond our control, yet it adds gasoline to the fire. :-( Because Chan is just a way to witness the universal truth. Chan itself has no word and no formula. Chan borrows what is convenient at the moment to awake the delusional mind. Bible, Koran or any sutra are all words we can borrow for that purpose. Words are really for soothing the delusion so that it will not block our entry into the inner spirit. Yet, without a powerful practice, our delusional mind are very very difficult to be shredded into pieces. Yes, it is our ego, as some would call it. However, the practice of Chan is an energy game. Ever since the big bang, the universe is manifested by this life force through cause and effect. Edgar call it, ontology, I believe. We are all energy beings. Without this energy, or Qi, we all die. Qi is the underlying support of all manifestation. Chan is a simple and basic. The practice of Chan enables us to see the wisdom in everything. I mean everything. To be more exact, the root of everything, or the cause of everything, or the truth of everything. To me, Chan is the absolute practice, because once you get it. You'll realize Chan is one and all. There will be no more judgment, heartache, worries, up and downs. Everything will be so clear. I mean everything. On the other hand, if Chan can not be applied to everything, it is not the absolute answer, or we did not really get it, or we are still living in our own delusional mind, or simply thinking. Just realized that it was a bit long. I am sorry. I hope it answers some of your questions. These are good fundamental questions. Thank you for granting me the opportunity to share. jm On 8/18/2011 12:22 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Thanks for your answer. I know that the concept of 'maya' is a fundamental teaching of Buddhism. I always had assumed that Chan was 'Chan Buddhism' and had/claimed a Buddhist foundation. I guess I was wrong. Does Chan only recognize the Heart and Dimond Sutras, and none of the others? Why does Chan use a lot of Buddhist language What would you call the concept of 'self'? I would call it an illusion - maya. I think the Japanese work is pronounced 'mak-ee-oh' and maybe transliterated as 'makyo'. ...Bill!
[Zen] Form vs Formless Practice
Dear All, Diamond Sutra continues to remind us that everything is as is, no matter how we label, analyze, describe, tear it apart, or look under a microscope. It was trying to tell us that This is the practice in form. This practice is connected with our five senses and consciousness, or the seven consciousness. No matter how we practice in form, we will never surpass the influence of the eighth consciousness, which is our subconsciousness, or what we called karma in Buddhism. Many of us may recall, the intuitive notions arising from within, usually are wrestled with our logical mind, self doubt, insecurity, emotions, past experiences, etc. etc. When we are under the gun, we usually resort our decision to our habitual ones. More often than not we regret that we are victimized by ourselves again. Often these notion wrestling occurs within a short instance, and usually in that split second, our lives are changed forever. This is the power of karmic influence. In other words, relying on all seven consciousness is fine as long as we have no life changing decision to make. The important practice is the practice in the formless, or the practice of no mind, no knowledge, no experience, no all seven consciousness, or no form. Or you may call this practice the practice of pure spirit, pure heart, pure energy. Only through this formless practice can we eliminate the karma in our eighth consciousness. Then you may ask, how do we function with no mind after we get up from the cushion. Yes, critically important question. The anwser lies in the synchronization with the wisdom of the universe at that moment. Everything is manifested by the universe, all we have to do is to ask it. It will tell us. But then how to ask? Develop enough Qi then synchronize our Qi with that of the universe. Is there another way? For many years, I have stressed the importance of a right practice. Only through the right cultivation of our internal Qi, can we surpass our physical hindrance, than our mental hindrance, then our inner spirit can shine through. Chan practice is a complete practice integrating our body, mind and spirit. And only through our heart can we integrate all three. After all, two out of the three, our spirit and our physical connection, are in our heart. How do you feel love or joy or energy? Otherwise, we just continue to live within our mind without awakening. In other words, as soon as we started to think, we fall back into our own dream constructed by ourselves. There are not much time left. JMJM Head Instructor Order Of Chan -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
Re: [Zen] Re: Form vs Formless Practice
My Dear Bill, You are most kind. jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/17/2011 8:31 PM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, I don't often comment on your longer posts such as this one, but I don't want you to think I don't read them. I do. Thanks for your continuing participation in the Zen Forum. You are a valuable contributor. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Dear All, Diamond Sutra continues to remind us that everything is as is, no matter how we label, analyze, describe, tear it apart, or look under a microscope. It was trying to tell us that This is the practice in form. This practice is connected with our five senses and consciousness, or the seven consciousness. No matter how we practice in form, we will never surpass the influence of the eighth consciousness, which is our subconsciousness, or what we called karma in Buddhism. Many of us may recall, the intuitive notions arising from within, usually are wrestled with our logical mind, self doubt, insecurity, emotions, past experiences, etc. etc. When we are under the gun, we usually resort our decision to our habitual ones. More often than not we regret that we are victimized by ourselves again. Often these notion wrestling occurs within a short instance, and usually in that split second, our lives are changed forever. This is the power of karmic influence. In other words, relying on all seven consciousness is fine as long as we have no life changing decision to make. The important practice is the practice in the formless, or the practice of no mind, no knowledge, no experience, no all seven consciousness, or no form. Or you may call this practice the practice of pure spirit, pure heart, pure energy. Only through this formless practice can we eliminate the karma in our eighth consciousness. Then you may ask, how do we function with no mind after we get up from the cushion. Yes, critically important question. The anwser lies in the synchronization with the wisdom of the universe at that moment. Everything is manifested by the universe, all we have to do is to ask it. It will tell us. But then how to ask? Develop enough Qi then synchronize our Qi with that of the universe. Is there another way? For many years, I have stressed the importance of a right practice. Only through the right cultivation of our internal Qi, can we surpass our physical hindrance, than our mental hindrance, then our inner spirit can shine through. Chan practice is a complete practice integrating our body, mind and spirit. And only through our heart can we integrate all three. After all, two out of the three, our spirit and our physical connection, are in our heart. How do you feel love or joy or energy? Otherwise, we just continue to live within our mind without awakening. In other words, as soon as we started to think, we fall back into our own dream constructed by ourselves. There are not much time left. JMJM Head Instructor Order Of Chan -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
Re: [Zen] Re:Comfort
Hello Bill, My teacher never used maya. He taught only two sutras, Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra. There is no concept of maya either. So I don't know about maya. Besides, I have no personal witness on maya either. This is my honest answer. :-) Perhaps there is a Chinese equivalent to maya in our teaching. If I do find out what that is, I will write you. Our school actually is very simple. There is only this practice. No word. No nothing. We only use a few phrases from both sutras. Even when we do, we are reminded not to be attached to the dharma. We were asked to witness as we continue to practice. That's all. It's all about self practice and witness. Thank you for taking the time to answer my comment. jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/17/2011 10:03 PM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, In your post below you reference me and my frequent references to 'illusion'. You state There is no such thing as illusion. I assume you are familar with the Buddhist concept of 'maya'. It comes from a compound Hindu word which I've been told is broken down into 'ma' = 'not' and 'ya' = 'that': or 'not that'. Wikikpedia in part defines 'maya' as Maya..., usually quoted as illusion, [is] centered on the fact that we do not experience the environment itself but rather a projection of it, created by us. I find this definition exactly what I mean when I use the term 'illusion'. Does Chan recognize the Buddhist concept of 'maya'? If so is it the same or similar as described above? And if so, why would you say that There is no such thing as illusion. That would be equivilent to saying 'There is no such thing as maya', wouldn't it? Or...is your statement just a form of circular logic saying 'illusion is illusory, and therefore not real (no such thing)'? ...Bill! */Not Zen Advice or an Offer of Instruction/* /This information is intended to assist those interested in zen. The information does not constitute zen advice or an offer to instruct or to provide zen services and is subject to correction, completion and amendment without notice. Any such offer, if made, will only be made by means of a confidential prospectus or offering memorandum or teacher/student agreement. It is not our intention to state, indicate or imply in any manner that current or past results are indicative of future results or expectations. As with all zen practice, there are associated risks and you could be just wasting your time. Prior to making any commitment to practice zen, a prospective practitioner should consult with its own life-style, medical, psychological and spiritual advisers to evaluate independently the risks, consequences and suitability of zen practice. / --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Dear Anthony, I am in the process of proofing the English on page 314 to 349 of our book Intro to Sitting Chan to be published in September. It details the steps to enlightenment. It is a rare and precious book. This is the testimonial section, there are several cased of physical karma relief. Yet because it is 7.3 mb big, the Zen Forum may not take it. So I also email to your personal email. I hope you don't mind. In our school, there are thousands of cases like this. Karmic ferry does indeed exist. If anyone is interested, I can also email. Anthony, all you have to do is to practice like we do every day at same place and same time. Usually three years later you will begin to witness just like I do. Anyone can witness like I do. There is no secret. Chan is just the law of nature. The whole nature and it can answer everything about the nature. Now let us talk about your attitude. I am reaching the last stage of my sharing, which is the spiritual dimension or the enlightenment dimension. I started from inquiry, to practice, to health to mental and now to spiritual. I hope you don't mind that I am going to be a little blunt, because there is less time now. So here it goes... If you are sincerely, honestly interested to learn what my witnesses are. You would study our website, read every word on my blog, instead of warning me, ... should... makyo. This statement sounded more like an authority. Your cup is quite full. When anyone regards oneself as an authority, then the mind begins to filter. Then the practice is no longer pure and no longer whole. Bill often uses the word, illusion. (Sorry Bill). There is no such thing as illusion. Everything can be experienced. There is only delusion, which means in my dictionary, pick and choose, deciding what I agree and what I don't. A practice limited by the filter of our mind is incomplete and never will truly awaken. These are my observation for your
[Zen] Re:Comfort
Good morning Sensei, Thank you for pointing out the discomfort issue. In our school, we have the following saying, Why is Buddhaland called the other shore? Because it is beyond our comfort zone. Discipline is the first of the three practices. Meditation is the second. Yet I found out that most of the meditation techniques are in complete or ineffective. Let me explain. I like to call the first stage of meditation, the detoxification phase. It is the phase we detox our addiction to comfort. This is the phase we suffer through cold turkey. Without cleans ourselves from all our habits, we just continue to live our lives as before. This is the bio-physical phase. With the right technique, usually within three years, we can surpass this phase. The second stage is the jhana phase. This is to conquer our mind, knowledge, experience, logic, rational or in short completely crush our ego and detachment from all forms. Sitting until we are into jhana is the only way. Usually it takes 30 - 45 minutes. Otherwise, we are where we were - practice with our mind and not our spirit. The third stage is the karma elimination stage, where we cleans our karma stored in our subconsciousness. This is the deep jhana phase. It can take up to 45- 60 minues to enter. Then we reach the spiritual wisdom phase, the Buddha nature phase. If we do meditate with the proper technique, everything, whether it be drug addiction, health spa, spiritual awakening can be affected. If we do not meditate with the proper technique, no matter what we consider our Zendo is, or however dedicated our discipline is, our practices or teaching does not matter much. On the other hand, if the meditation technique is effective, then whatever we consider our zendo is, does not matter much either, because it will do everything that is needed to help anyone to surpass anything. The key difference is the power to transform. It is the power of the universe. And it is not the mental power or will power or knowledge of our practice, but the actual practice itself, needing to be all inclusive, or in other words, energized. What I have written here is not my opinion from my mind, or something from our teaching, but my witness. Yes Chan practice has the ability to complete overhaul our lives, that is if we meditate under an enlightened master. Otherwise, we are just following the forms of the practice and not the practice itself. By October, we'll have a book out, Introduction to Sitting Chan. It details the path to enlightenment and ways to cross the Three EONS, while our previous book is about the basic technique. This is full colored about 300 pages thick. If anyone is interested, please let me know, because it needs to be ordered from Taiwan. Bon voyage, jm Head Teacher Order of Chan Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/15/2011 5:33 AM, Harvey Daiho Hilbert wrote: With palms together, Good Morning Everyone, Recently I read an article written by Charlotte Joko Beck, a pioneer in the American Zen movement. A copy may be found on Rev. Dosho Port’s blog at Wild Fox Zen http://wildfoxzen.blogspot.com/. This article was about the function of a Zen Center.In it she argues that the primary function of a Center is to offer a place for the simple and straightforward practice of Zen. Her clarity in this article is wonderful, but can be hard for us to swallow today. I will add my voice to hers: Zen Centers are not spas, nor are they rehab centers, mental health facilities, or self-improvement organizations.Zen Centers are practice centers and the practice is Zazen. My impression from the ads in the slick Buddhist magazines of late is that American Zen is moving toward disregarding this basic point of Zen to one popularizing the practice and wooing clientele. Our practice is sometimes understood as a way to feel better, improve oneself, or get healthier.Centers (including ours) offer a variety of workshops, teachings, and practices which, in and of themselves, are wonderful, but when offered with the aim of self-improvement take us away from the actual aim of seated practice which is the discovery and manifestation of our true nature. We accommodate sometimes too much: From chairs to no incense; from fans to air conditioning; from shorter chants to little or no ritual at all.Formality and etiquette are not only not revered, but actively fought against as ‘old fashioned.’ The how of practice is argued against by the why of practice.We often set aside ritual in service to what will make us “comfortable.” (Please bear in mind, there is a profound difference between comfort and necessity. I have no qualms about offering a chair to someone who cannot sit on a cushion, but cannot
Re: [Zen] Re:Comfort
Hello Anthony, I have a few answers for you. * You said yourself that sutra is not written by Buddha. Why do you regard it so holy? * As Bill would say, Buddha realized Zen, then he found Buddhism. Therefore Chan practice is not to follow his words, but to experience what He did. * My witness is not yours. It is not important how I witness. It is important that you witness. Unless you believe, only your witness is valid, then it is okay if you want to negate my witness. I don't mind. Relax. Enjoy life. Keep up your joyful spirit. :-) Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/15/2011 3:06 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, You say, 'The third stage is the karma elimination stage, where we cleans our karma stored in our subconsciousness. ' I have no doubt that your chan practice can result in a lot of benefits. But whether karma can be cleaned by meditation is another matter. Buddhism always says karma can only be worked out or exhausted by your own action and experiences (not just meditation). Which sutras tell you that meditation will clense karma? You also say you 'witness' that happening. Can you witness your next life, next next life? Anthony --- On *Mon, 15/8/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Re:Comfort To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, heartc...@googlegroups.com Date: Monday, 15 August, 2011, 11:08 PM Good morning Sensei, Thank you for pointing out the discomfort issue. In our school, we have the following saying, Why is Buddhaland called the other shore? Because it is beyond our comfort zone. Discipline is the first of the three practices. Meditation is the second. Yet I found out that most of the meditation techniques are in complete or ineffective. Let me explain. I like to call the first stage of meditation, the detoxification phase. It is the phase we detox our addiction to comfort. This is the phase we suffer through cold turkey. Without cleans ourselves from all our habits, we just continue to live our lives as before. This is the bio-physical phase. With the right technique, usually within three years, we can surpass this phase. The second stage is the jhana phase. This is to conquer our mind, knowledge, experience, logic, rational or in short completely crush our ego and detachment from all forms. Sitting until we are into jhana is the only way. Usually it takes 30 - 45 minutes. Otherwise, we are where we were - practice with our mind and not our spirit. The third stage is the karma elimination stage, where we cleans our karma stored in our subconsciousness. This is the deep jhana phase. It can take up to 45- 60 minues to enter. Then we reach the spiritual wisdom phase, the Buddha nature phase. If we do meditate with the proper technique, everything, whether it be drug addiction, health spa, spiritual awakening can be affected. If we do not meditate with the proper technique, no matter what we consider our Zendo is, or however dedicated our discipline is, our practices or teaching does not matter much. On the other hand, if the meditation technique is effective, then whatever we consider our zendo is, does not matter much either, because it will do everything that is needed to help anyone to surpass anything. The key difference is the power to transform. It is the power of the universe. And it is not the mental power or will power or knowledge of our practice, but the actual practice itself, needing to be all inclusive, or in other words, energized. What I have written here is not my opinion from my mind, or something from our teaching, but my witness. Yes Chan practice has the ability to complete overhaul our lives, that is if we meditate under an enlightened master. Otherwise, we are just following the forms of the practice and not the practice itself. By October, we'll have a book out, Introduction to Sitting Chan. It details the path to enlightenment and ways to cross the Three EONS, while our previous book is about the basic technique. This is full colored about 300 pages thick. If anyone is interested, please let me know, because it needs to be ordered from Taiwan. Bon voyage, jm Head Teacher Order of Chan Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http
Re: [Zen] Three Aims of Zazen
Hi Anthony, Thank you for the post. It is very true. I would add #4 -- to walk the Buddha's walk - awaken others... I googled the word, joriki and found out that there were already discussion about this word in this forum in February 2009. :-) Like in 2009, I still can not verify exact what that is in Chinese. I can only guess that it is 注力“。 That's the closest to concentration deriving from its pronunciation. jm Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/13/2011 3:02 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: Yasutani Roshi says that there are 3 aims of zazen: 1. To develop power of concentration, which enables you to react instantly without pausing to 'collect your wits'. One is enabled to be in command of oneself and the circumstances. Cultivation of supernormal powers is also made possible. In Japanese, it is called 'joriki'. I cannot find the kanji for this word. Maybe JM can show me, in order to shed light on the real meaning, or at least the origin of the meaning. 2. Seeing into your true nature. At the same time, it will let you see into the ultimate nature of the universe. There are different degrees of the ability of seeing the nature. It will take hard work to see as far as Sakyamuni Buddha sees. The Japanese call it 'kensho godo'. I believe it is 见性悟道。 3. Actualization of the supreme way. Reflection of Buddha nature in daily life. In Japanese, it is 'mujodo no taigen'. I believe it is 无上道之体现。 The three aims are in conformity with the 'five varieties of zen', also presented by Yasutani Roshi.
Re: [Zen] Fwd: Fwd: A secret
Hello Mayka, How is everything with you? I am swamped lately. Unable to find time to share on the forum. In our school, we are trained to ignore the form and sync with the heart. Therefore, all the facts or descriptions of events of her talk is not important to me. Yet I did feel the energy of her heart and I teared. JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/11/2011 3:47 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: /Hi JMJM;/ /Missed out this posting./ /What is your own comment about it?. / /Mayka/ --- On *Tue, 9/8/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Fwd: Fwd: A secret To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 9 August, 2011, 18:42 This youtube is really rare. What is your comment? :-) jm Original Message http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liFXQEEc5_s
[Zen] Fwd: Fwd: A secret
This youtube is really rare. What is your comment? :-) jm Original Message http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liFXQEEc5_s
[Zen] My Talk at UC Berkeley 9/30/2011
Uncover Our Hidden Potential Live To Our Fullest http://youtu.be/2IJHUbVYuCk Please let me know your comment. Thank you. JM -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
[Zen] Meeting my Teacher
Good Day Bill, I was called to meet my Teacher on 10/1/2001. Would you be interested to meet me in Taiwan? Mark Troxell, the one who received heart-to-heart transmission from my Teacher in Shanghai will also be there during that time. Mark is also thirty years into the Japanese Zen practice. Perhaps we could then communicate more effectively that way. JM -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
Re: [Zen] Meeting my Teacher
Hi Mike, Mis-type is a serious offense in Zen, because it illustrated that I was not in the moment.. Sigh Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 8/2/2011 10:42 AM, mike brown wrote: Hi JM, I was called to meet my Teacher on 10/1/2001. If I'd have known time travel was possible under Chan, then I'd have joined up years ago (or could I just start now, but travel back to begin at an earlier time?). Mike
Re: [Zen] What is Chan?
Anthony, My Teacher is profound and beyond my human comprehension. He was in Shanghai over the weekend. There was this practitioner named Mark Troxell, recently joint our class in Shanghai. He was the only one received his transmission. Mark told us, in thirty years of his practice with Japanese Zen, he has never felt red light emitting from his heart and radiating to the rest of the body. He asked whether he could to go to Taiwan and be taught from time to time. Would you believe? In our school, events like this occur often. Yet we don't normally share with everyone, because it is hard to believe. Therefore we only teach people how to meditate, instead of believing in our Teaching. Anyone practices our way shall witness. It's just energy, that's all. Nonthing mysterious. How about your teacher? Do your practice? What is your experience? :-) Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/28/2011 2:26 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, How about the behavior of your teacher? Anthony --- On *Thu, 28/7/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] What is Chan? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 July, 2011, 7:28 AM Well, Anthony. When I began my practice, I had no idea what to test, or what it should be. As I continue my practice, the truth told to me gradually unfolds, while my Teacher continue to say, Don't take my words as is. Your practice and you shall witness. And I did. It is not complicated, nor does it require understanding or blind faith. As Deng Xiao Ping said, just feel the stone as we cross the river. :-) In our school, there is no set path, no set words, no set principles. Everyone is on his/her own. Every way is the way, while all ways are influenced by karma of different sorts Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/ On 7/27/2011 3:13 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, No doubt your teacher plays an essential role in your Chan practice. I have the impression that he is a nice and knowledgeable man. However, Gotama Buddha says you should 'test' your teacher. Do you do it, or just follow him without questions? Anthony --- On *Thu, 28/7/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] What is Chan? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zenliv...@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 July, 2011, 2:48 AM Chan is a “practice” composed of a set of physical exercises called Motion Chan, and a set of detailed meditative practices called Sitting Chan. Chan does not teach a set of holy books stating any belief, faith, ethics, etc. Historically well known, without words and out side of religion, Chan is transmitted directly from heart to heart. In other words, through dedicated practice of Motion and Sitting Chan, practitioners are able to awaken from within and personally witness the truth of the universe. Therefore, * Chan does not have a label for god, so it does not worship. * Chan does not have a written dogma. * Chan conveniently borrows spiritual terms from many religions as needed to awaken the spirits within. * Chan only asks strict adherence to its detailed instructions for Motion and Sitting Chan. * Chan does provide, as a reference, a set of guidelines from an enlightened Master to facilitate the journey for everyone. Comparing to religions promulgated through holy books or prophets, Chan's uniqueness are listed below: * It liberates our spirit from our physical hindrances. * It enables each of us to uncover our spirit from the burial of our knowledge, experience, thoughts, emotions, and inner impulses. * Slowly it brightens our
Re: [Zen] What is Chan?
Hi Anthony, If you don't mind me jump in here, you seem to treat everything with an absolute attitude. Words in sutra seem absolute to you. Sacred and finite. Teachers student relationship seem absolute and difficult for you. Nothing in the world is absolute. Everything is transient and inter-dependent. Teacher is no different from student. Respect are earned, exchanged and not demanded. When you hold no position on concepts in sutra and on your opinion about what Zen or Chan is, then your journey begins. JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/28/2011 2:58 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: Bill, When you begin to practice and have maximum faith in your teacher. Then he asks you to jump from the top of a nine story building, do you jump? Anthony --- On *Thu, 28/7/11, Bill! /billsm...@hhs1963.org/* wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: Re: [Zen] What is Chan? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 July, 2011, 9:51 AM Anthony, I agree with JMJM. In the beginning you are opeating on faith. You have complete faith in your teacher. That's probably the way it has to be. As you grow in your practice there may come a time when your own experiences start to at least counter-balance your faith. Then you might start asking questions. When your practice is mature there is no longer any need for faith. I was fortunate in having an obviously flawed teacher. He never disappointed me in his role as a zen teacher, but certainly fell short in other areas. Some of his students saw this as a big problem and usually left. I didn't because I never had the expectations that a zen master would be perfect in everything. As long as he was sincere in his zen practice, that was good enough for me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Well, Anthony. When I began my practice, I had no idea what to test, or what it should be. As I continue my practice, the truth told to me gradually unfolds, while my Teacher continue to say, Don't take my words as is. Your practice and you shall witness. And I did. It is not complicated, nor does it require understanding or blind faith. As Deng Xiao Ping said, just feel the stone as we cross the river. :-) In our school, there is no set path, no set words, no set principles. Everyone is on his/her own. Every way is the way, while all ways are influenced by karma of different sorts Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/ On 7/27/2011 3:13 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, No doubt your teacher plays an essential role in your Chan practice. I have the impression that he is a nice and knowledgeable man. However, Gotama Buddha says you should 'test' your teacher. Do you do it, or just follow him without questions? Anthony --- On *Thu, 28/7/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.jmjm@.../* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... Subject: [Zen] What is Chan? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, zenliv...@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ZenLiving%40yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan-socal-english%40googlegroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 July, 2011, 2:48 AM Chan is a “practice” composed of a set of physical exercises called Motion Chan, and a set of detailed meditative practices called Sitting Chan. Chan does not teach a set of holy books stating any belief, faith, ethics, etc. Historically well known, without words and out side of religion, Chan is transmitted directly from heart to heart. In other words, through dedicated practice of Motion and Sitting Chan, practitioners are able to awaken from within and personally witness the truth of the universe. Therefore, * Chan does not have a label for god, so it does not worship. * Chan does not have a written dogma. * Chan conveniently borrows spiritual terms from many
Re: [Zen] What is Chan?
Anthony, You are not a practitioner. You merely having fun with the site. That's okay. I don't answer questions coming from your brain. There is no benefit to you. When you begin to practice. Please let me know. Okay? I have five classes and one seminar in the next three days to do. Sorry... Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/28/2011 2:30 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, You are completely wrong. My words here have nothing whatsoever to do with sutras or any belief systems. I talk about something practical. Don't sidestep my question. Anthony --- On *Thu, 28/7/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] What is Chan? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 July, 2011, 9:48 PM Hi Anthony, If you don't mind me jump in here, you seem to treat everything with an absolute attitude. Words in sutra seem absolute to you. Sacred and finite. Teachers student relationship seem absolute and difficult for you. Nothing in the world is absolute. Everything is transient and inter-dependent. Teacher is no different from student. Respect are earned, exchanged and not demanded. When you hold no position on concepts in sutra and on your opinion about what Zen or Chan is, then your journey begins. JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/ On 7/28/2011 2:58 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: Bill, When you begin to practice and have maximum faith in your teacher. Then he asks you to jump from the top of a nine story building, do you jump? Anthony --- On *Thu, 28/7/11, Bill! /billsm...@hhs1963.org http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org/* wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: Re: [Zen] What is Chan? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 July, 2011, 9:51 AM Anthony, I agree with JMJM. In the beginning you are opeating on faith. You have complete faith in your teacher. That's probably the way it has to be. As you grow in your practice there may come a time when your own experiences start to at least counter-balance your faith. Then you might start asking questions. When your practice is mature there is no longer any need for faith. I was fortunate in having an obviously flawed teacher. He never disappointed me in his role as a zen teacher, but certainly fell short in other areas. Some of his students saw this as a big problem and usually left. I didn't because I never had the expectations that a zen master would be perfect in everything. As long as he was sincere in his zen practice, that was good enough for me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.jmjm@... wrote: Well, Anthony. When I began my practice, I had no idea what to test, or what it should be. As I continue my practice, the truth told to me gradually unfolds, while my Teacher continue to say, Don't take my words as is. Your practice and you shall witness. And I did. It is not complicated, nor does it require understanding or blind faith. As Deng Xiao Ping said, just feel the stone as we cross the river. :-) In our school, there is no set path, no set words, no set principles. Everyone is on his/her own. Every way is the way, while all ways are influenced by karma of different sorts Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal
[Zen] Fwd:Please come, share and support
Dear All, For all our goodness, please come, share and support a talk that I will be giving at UC Berkeley - Uncover your hidden potential and live your life to the fullest! This coming Sunday. Thank you, JM Original Message Ping-Chen Huang posted in 印心禪法灣區禪修班 Bay Area Heart Chan Meditation Group http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F149963188391562id=198210936900120mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com. Hi all, there will be an interesting talk on Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon by Brother Jing Ming this Sunday in UC Berkeley. http://www.facebook.com/l/HAQASG36-AQC8p1P8rrJX7pCZoC2l3Vu7qIW2CyW8vCDF3A/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ Don't miss it if you do not have other obligations on Sunday. Let me know if you are coming ;) Ping-Chen http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.phpid=1420395430mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com Ping-Chen Huang http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.phpid=1420395430mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com 12:03am Jul 27 Hi all, there will be an interesting talk on Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon by Brother Jing Ming this Sunday in UC Berkeley. http://www.facebook.com/l/HAQASG36-AQC8p1P8rrJX7pCZoC2l3Vu7qIW2CyW8vCDF3A/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ Don't miss it if you do not have other obligations on Sunday. Let me know if you are coming ;) Ping-Chen http://www.facebook.com/l/TAQANCauJAQCqBVOM_ZG1gTqHxg46DDRk13Eayo9KX-fXgg/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ Body, Mind, and Spirit Elevation! http://www.facebook.com/l/kAQAzS8zzAQAraSkZOtSZiifKZG1sdOkjnyijxwbF_AbdHg/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ berkeleychan.wordpress.com http://www.facebook.com/l/qAQB1MsHqAQC3Ip3igBRXUHzc1nyNBknWiElKYvFc5pGxMg/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/We live in a world that demands excellence, high performance, and originality. Besides working hard,
Re: [Zen] Fwd:Please come, share and support
Ah, how lovely. Thank you Chris. I assume that you are in the Bay area. Well, I will also be leading four sessions at our center in San Jose this coming Saturday. Location: 4423 Fortran Court suite 130, San Jose * Chinese sessions: 10-11:00 am on Sats (beginners); 11:15-12:30 pm on Sats (advanced) * English sessions: 2:30-3:30 pm on Sats (beginners); 3:40-4:30 pm on Sats (advanced). And we have a three day retreat end of August in Santa Cruz. http://heartchan.org/en/home/item/18-2011-retreat-in-santa-cruz-ca.html Where one teacher will fly in from New York and another from Taiwan. Do try to come and experience. Thank you, _/\_ JMJM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/27/2011 10:58 AM, ChrisAustinLane wrote: Fooey, I shall be out of state visiting family on Sunday. I look forward to meeting you in person at a similar occasion farther in the future. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Jul 27, 2011, at 9:02, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com mailto:chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: Dear All, For all our goodness, please come, share and support a talk that I will be giving at UC Berkeley - Uncover your hidden potential and live your life to the fullest! This coming Sunday. Thank you, JM Original Message Ping-Chen Huang posted in 印心禪法灣區禪修班 Bay Area Heart Chan Meditation Group http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F149963188391562id=198210936900120mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com. Hi all, there will be an interesting talk on Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon by Brother Jing Ming this Sunday in UC Berkeley. http://www.facebook.com/l/HAQASG36-AQC8p1P8rrJX7pCZoC2l3Vu7qIW2CyW8vCDF3A/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ Don't miss it if you do not have other obligations on Sunday. Let me know if you are coming ;) Ping-Chen http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.phpid=1420395430mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com Ping-Chen Huang http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.phpid=1420395430mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com 12:03am Jul 27 Hi all, there will be an interesting talk on Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon by Brother Jing Ming this Sunday in UC Berkeley. http://www.facebook.com/l/HAQASG36-AQC8p1P8rrJX7pCZoC2l3Vu7qIW2CyW8vCDF3A/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ Don't miss it if you do not have other obligations on Sunday. Let me know if you are coming ;) Ping-Chen http://www.facebook.com/l/TAQANCauJAQCqBVOM_ZG1gTqHxg46DDRk13Eayo9KX-fXgg/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ Body, Mind, and Spirit Elevation! http://www.facebook.com/l/kAQAzS8zzAQAraSkZOtSZiifKZG1sdOkjnyijxwbF_AbdHg/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ berkeleychan.wordpress.com http://www.facebook.com/l/qAQB1MsHqAQC3Ip3igBRXUHzc1nyNBknWiElKYvFc5pGxMg/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/We live in a world that demands excellence, high performance, and originality. Besides working hard,
[Zen] What is Chan?
Chan is a “practice” composed of a set of physical exercises called Motion Chan, and a set of detailed meditative practices called Sitting Chan. Chan does not teach a set of holy books stating any belief, faith, ethics, etc. Historically well known, without words and out side of religion, Chan is transmitted directly from heart to heart. In other words, through dedicated practice of Motion and Sitting Chan, practitioners are able to awaken from within and personally witness the truth of the universe. Therefore, * Chan does not have a label for god, so it does not worship. * Chan does not have a written dogma. * Chan conveniently borrows spiritual terms from many religions as needed to awaken the spirits within. * Chan only asks strict adherence to its detailed instructions for Motion and Sitting Chan. * Chan does provide, as a reference, a set of guidelines from an enlightened Master to facilitate the journey for everyone. Comparing to religions promulgated through holy books or prophets, Chan's uniqueness are listed below: * It liberates our spirit from our physical hindrances. * It enables each of us to uncover our spirit from the burial of our knowledge, experience, thoughts, emotions, and inner impulses. * Slowly it brightens our spirit and let it shine through. * It let our spirit to be in charge of our physical well being, so that our health could be sustained. * It enables our spirit to manage our thoughts and knowledge instead of the reverse. As the spirit of Chan practitioners outshines the physical and mental hindrances, meaning experiencing Chi, awareness and identifying the separation of spirit and mind, they will then be able to witness more abstract statements in the holy books and their own believes: * Such as ego, equality, harmony, impermanence, interbeing, compassion, wisdom, etc. * Such as purpose of life or enlightenment. * Such as life after death, soul, reincarnation, heaven, hell. * Such as god, Buddha, Allah, etc. * Such as the realization that we all are but conduits of energy and wisdom, as well as the fact that it was our teacher who transmitted to us at the beginning. After these experiences, compassion and wisdom from within will automatically prompt the practitioners to awaken others and transform the world to a better place. And this was the same sequence as in the journey of our Chan Master, Buddha, Jesus or Mohammed. -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements?
Thank you, Anthony.. Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/27/2011 2:48 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, If you correct your spelling: Su Dong Po, instead of Xu... you will stand up to the eight winds. Anthony --- On *Wed, 27/7/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 July, 2011, 9:44 AM Now I am being blown away by the Eight Winds :-) Have you ever heard the story of the Eight Winds and the Chinese Poet Xu Dong Po? 八風吹不動。。蘇東坡。。 Perhaps Anthony can share.. :-) Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/ On 7/26/2011 6:18 PM, Bill! wrote: I like JMJM too. Even though I don't agree with everything he says I know whatever he posts is heartfelt and done so in an honest attempt to communicate Chan. He is a valuable addition to our forum. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wuasg@... wrote: Mayka,  Contrary to what I say sometimes, I also like JMJM.  Anthony --- On Wed, 27/7/11, Maria Lopez flordeloto@... http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=flordeloto@... wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordeloto@... http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=flordeloto@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 July, 2011, 4:45 AM  Agree with Chris. Very well explained and what I also think about JMJM. Mayka --- On Tue, 26/7/11, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chris@... wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane chris@... http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chris@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 July, 2011, 20:09  When I read JMJM's dismissal of his speach, it comes across to me as a way of acknowledging that words are imperfect ways to share experience.  I find it humble and honest, not with the negative connotation I associate with sophisty.  He's not attacking people then pretending he said nothing; he's sharing the words his group uses for their Theory of Zen Practise and then disclaiming those words as being just words.  Thanks, --Chris chris@... +1-301-270-6524 On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Mark Perew mperew@... http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mperew@... wrote: Regardless of the derivation of the word, to say something then dismiss it is sophistry. Words cannot be unsaid.
Re: [Zen] What is Chan?
Well, Anthony. When I began my practice, I had no idea what to test, or what it should be. As I continue my practice, the truth told to me gradually unfolds, while my Teacher continue to say, Don't take my words as is. Your practice and you shall witness. And I did. It is not complicated, nor does it require understanding or blind faith. As Deng Xiao Ping said, just feel the stone as we cross the river. :-) In our school, there is no set path, no set words, no set principles. Everyone is on his/her own. Every way is the way, while all ways are influenced by karma of different sorts Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/27/2011 3:13 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, No doubt your teacher plays an essential role in your Chan practice. I have the impression that he is a nice and knowledgeable man. However, Gotama Buddha says you should 'test' your teacher. Do you do it, or just follow him without questions? Anthony --- On *Thu, 28/7/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] What is Chan? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 July, 2011, 2:48 AM Chan is a “practice” composed of a set of physical exercises called Motion Chan, and a set of detailed meditative practices called Sitting Chan. Chan does not teach a set of holy books stating any belief, faith, ethics, etc. Historically well known, without words and out side of religion, Chan is transmitted directly from heart to heart. In other words, through dedicated practice of Motion and Sitting Chan, practitioners are able to awaken from within and personally witness the truth of the universe. Therefore, * Chan does not have a label for god, so it does not worship. * Chan does not have a written dogma. * Chan conveniently borrows spiritual terms from many religions as needed to awaken the spirits within. * Chan only asks strict adherence to its detailed instructions for Motion and Sitting Chan. * Chan does provide, as a reference, a set of guidelines from an enlightened Master to facilitate the journey for everyone. Comparing to religions promulgated through holy books or prophets, Chan's uniqueness are listed below: * It liberates our spirit from our physical hindrances. * It enables each of us to uncover our spirit from the burial of our knowledge, experience, thoughts, emotions, and inner impulses. * Slowly it brightens our spirit and let it shine through. * It let our spirit to be in charge of our physical well being, so that our health could be sustained. * It enables our spirit to manage our thoughts and knowledge instead of the reverse. As the spirit of Chan practitioners outshines the physical and mental hindrances, meaning experiencing Chi, awareness and identifying the separation of spirit and mind, they will then be able to witness more abstract statements in the holy books and their own believes: * Such as ego, equality, harmony, impermanence, interbeing, compassion, wisdom, etc. * Such as purpose of life or enlightenment. * Such as life after death, soul, reincarnation, heaven, hell. * Such as god, Buddha, Allah, etc. * Such as the realization that we all are but conduits of energy and wisdom, as well as the fact that it was our teacher who transmitted to us at the beginning. After these experiences, compassion and wisdom from within will automatically prompt the practitioners to awaken others and transform the world to a better place. And this was the same sequence as in the journey of our Chan Master, Buddha, Jesus or Mohammed. -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/
Re: [Zen] What is Chan?
Hi Anthony, Perhaps I can put it in another way. All my teacher did was taught me how to meditate. There was no promise of anything. No Dogma. No absolute. No expectation. Just sit. Slowly as I shed this and that, I begin to experience. Then I ask question. Then he explain. It's quite simple. If you read the sequence of this article I wrote. It is the same sequence Buddha went through. He had no sutra, no destination, no idea what he is going to discover either. The problem we have is when we follow the opposite way, the bottom up way. :-) Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/27/2011 3:13 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, No doubt your teacher plays an essential role in your Chan practice. I have the impression that he is a nice and knowledgeable man. However, Gotama Buddha says you should 'test' your teacher. Do you do it, or just follow him without questions? Anthony --- On *Thu, 28/7/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] What is Chan? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 July, 2011, 2:48 AM Chan is a “practice” composed of a set of physical exercises called Motion Chan, and a set of detailed meditative practices called Sitting Chan. Chan does not teach a set of holy books stating any belief, faith, ethics, etc. Historically well known, without words and out side of religion, Chan is transmitted directly from heart to heart. In other words, through dedicated practice of Motion and Sitting Chan, practitioners are able to awaken from within and personally witness the truth of the universe. Therefore, * Chan does not have a label for god, so it does not worship. * Chan does not have a written dogma. * Chan conveniently borrows spiritual terms from many religions as needed to awaken the spirits within. * Chan only asks strict adherence to its detailed instructions for Motion and Sitting Chan. * Chan does provide, as a reference, a set of guidelines from an enlightened Master to facilitate the journey for everyone. Comparing to religions promulgated through holy books or prophets, Chan's uniqueness are listed below: * It liberates our spirit from our physical hindrances. * It enables each of us to uncover our spirit from the burial of our knowledge, experience, thoughts, emotions, and inner impulses. * Slowly it brightens our spirit and let it shine through. * It let our spirit to be in charge of our physical well being, so that our health could be sustained. * It enables our spirit to manage our thoughts and knowledge instead of the reverse. As the spirit of Chan practitioners outshines the physical and mental hindrances, meaning experiencing Chi, awareness and identifying the separation of spirit and mind, they will then be able to witness more abstract statements in the holy books and their own believes: * Such as ego, equality, harmony, impermanence, interbeing, compassion, wisdom, etc. * Such as purpose of life or enlightenment. * Such as life after death, soul, reincarnation, heaven, hell. * Such as god, Buddha, Allah, etc. * Such as the realization that we all are but conduits of energy and wisdom, as well as the fact that it was our teacher who transmitted to us at the beginning. After these experiences, compassion and wisdom from within will automatically prompt the practitioners to awaken others and transform the world to a better place. And this was the same sequence as in the journey of our Chan Master, Buddha, Jesus or Mohammed. -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/
Re: [Zen] Fwd:Please come, share and support
Not maybe, Bill. For sure... JM :-) Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/27/2011 6:40 PM, Bill! wrote: JMJM and I ALMOST were able to meet when I was in the SF Bay Area last year attending to my dieing mother. Unfortunately I couldn't break free at the day and time he was there. Maybe next time... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Ah, how lovely. Thank you Chris. I assume that you are in the Bay area. Well, I will also be leading four sessions at our center in San Jose this coming Saturday. Location: 4423 Fortran Court suite 130, San Jose * Chinese sessions: 10-11:00 am on Sats (beginners); 11:15-12:30 pm on Sats (advanced) * English sessions: 2:30-3:30 pm on Sats (beginners); 3:40-4:30 pm on Sats (advanced). And we have a three day retreat end of August in Santa Cruz. http://heartchan.org/en/home/item/18-2011-retreat-in-santa-cruz-ca.html Where one teacher will fly in from New York and another from Taiwan. Do try to come and experience. Thank you, _/\_ JMJM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/27/2011 10:58 AM, ChrisAustinLane wrote: Fooey, I shall be out of state visiting family on Sunday. I look forward to meeting you in person at a similar occasion farther in the future. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Jul 27, 2011, at 9:02, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... mailto:chan.jmjm@... wrote: Dear All, For all our goodness, please come, share and support a talk that I will be giving at UC Berkeley - Uncover your hidden potential and live your life to the fullest! This coming Sunday. Thank you, JM Original Message Ping-Chen Huang posted in å°å¿ƒç¦ªæ³•ç£å€ç¦ªä¿®ç Bay Area Heart Chan Meditation Group http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F149963188391562id=198210936900120mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F149963188391562id=198210936900120mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com. Hi all, there will be an interesting talk on Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon by Brother Jing Ming this Sunday in UC Berkeley. http://www.facebook.com/l/HAQASG36-AQC8p1P8rrJX7pCZoC2l3Vu7qIW2CyW8vCDF3A/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ Don't miss it if you do not have other obligations on Sunday. Let me know if you are coming ;) Ping-Chen http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.phpid=1420395430mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.phpid=1420395430mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com Ping-Chen Huang http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.phpid=1420395430mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.phpid=1420395430mid=499b58dG5af34537335eG7c5848G96bcode=rSxCpWrCn_m=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com 12:03am Jul 27 Hi all, there will be an interesting talk on Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon by Brother Jing Ming this Sunday in UC Berkeley. http://www.facebook.com/l/HAQASG36-AQC8p1P8rrJX7pCZoC2l3Vu7qIW2CyW8vCDF3A/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ Don't miss it if you do not have other obligations on Sunday. Let me know if you are coming ;) Ping-Chen http://www.facebook.com/l/TAQANCauJAQCqBVOM_ZG1gTqHxg46DDRk13Eayo9KX-fXgg/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ Body, Mind, and Spirit Elevation! http://www.facebook.com/l/kAQAzS8zzAQAraSkZOtSZiifKZG1sdOkjnyijxwbF_AbdHg/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/ berkeleychan.wordpress.com http://www.facebook.com/l/qAQB1MsHqAQC3Ip3igBRXUHzc1nyNBknWiElKYvFc5pGxMg/berkeleychan.wordpress.com/We live in a world that demands excellence, high performance, and originality. Besides working hard,
Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements?
Now I am being blown away by the Eight Winds :-) Have you ever heard the story of the Eight Winds and the Chinese Poet Xu Dong Po? 八風吹不動。。蘇東坡。。 Perhaps Anthony can share.. :-) Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/26/2011 6:18 PM, Bill! wrote: I like JMJM too. Even though I don't agree with everything he says I know whatever he posts is heartfelt and done so in an honest attempt to communicate Chan. He is a valuable addition to our forum. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: Mayka,  Contrary to what I say sometimes, I also like JMJM.  Anthony --- On Wed, 27/7/11, Maria Lopez flordeloto@... wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordeloto@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 July, 2011, 4:45 AM  Agree with Chris. Very well explained and what I also think about JMJM. Mayka --- On Tue, 26/7/11, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane chris@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 July, 2011, 20:09  When I read JMJM's dismissal of his speach, it comes across to me as a way of acknowledging that words are imperfect ways to share experience.  I find it humble and honest, not with the negative connotation I associate with sophisty.  He's not attacking people then pretending he said nothing; he's sharing the words his group uses for their Theory of Zen Practise and then disclaiming those words as being just words.  Thanks, --Chris chris@... +1-301-270-6524 On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Mark Perew mperew@... wrote: Regardless of the derivation of the word, to say something then dismiss it is sophistry. Words cannot be unsaid.
[Zen] Words..
Hi Mel, Well put. It is said, all written words, sutra/bible/koran, are for our convenience. Convenience for us to be awakened from within. They are like boats to ferry us across the other shore, the shore beyond our habits, additions, believes, logic, dogma, faith, etc. Once we landed, or had a peak through our own delusions, these boats, big or small, dumb or smart, are to be left behind, instead of being carried in our mind. So that we can continue on with our journey. Too often, we hold them dearly, as golden rules, as absolute. Then we are blinded by them and fail to see the truth of every encounter, loose the wisdom of the moment to deliver our fulfillment, as well as disconnect from the calling of within, which is boundless compassion and true sense of life's purpose. My teacher often reminds me, stay within your heart, sync with the life force and wisdom of each moment. Thus you could be unaffected by all forms at every moment, and see clearly the manifestation of cause and effect. JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/20/2011 1:53 AM, Mel wrote: This posting is going off the zen grid a bit, but I myself had no problems with the forbidden books as well as those things to do with any sexual connection between Mary Magdalene and Jesus during my try-out period of a few months with the Christian faith back then. The way I see it to this day, nothing really changes what Yahweh/Jesus says in his holy book...author Dale Brown, or not They(some scholars) say that Jesus and Mary Magdalene shacked up(set up house/love nest) together and had children afterwards, whose descendants are alive today. It has also been said in the past that Mary Magdalene was present somewhere in the picture of Jesus's PassOver with the disciples. As a Christian of the Quaker variety(or at least, I tried to be as so) from back then, I had no problem with such, because I could see that it was such an insignificant matter, and didn't really affect all things scriptural It's the same with the old man himself. Somebody can turn around and tell me today that the old fella wasn't really as holy as he claimed to be from under that special tree. Do I care? Must I even care? Of course not. The book Zen Mind Begginer's Mind is one I keep coming back to. Reading and absorbing it is not exactly getting it straight from the horse's mouth, but it's beneficial to me in my own private way. For all I know, this son of Queen Maha Maya could have been one of the most corrupt characters in humankind's history. Good...bad...which one was he? By now, do we really care as zen practitioners? Unlike some corrupt and self-proclaimed, ceremony-obssessed south-east Asian and Ceylonese Buddhists I've dealt with in the past I don't hold holiness to anyone in this world of ours. Zen is my chosen path, although I do not tag myself as Buddhist in any way, unless I'm pressed to declare some faith or another and I can see that explaining zen to the enquirer is going to cause not clarity in mind but added confusion to the enquirer Thanks for your time in Buddha's grace Mel
Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements?
Excellent response, Bill. Especially the last line. Steve will be happy that you are also quoting Thomas Gospel... Thank you. JM. Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/19/2011 8:06 PM, Bill! wrote: Anthony, Jesus used the terms 'Kingdom of Heaven' and 'Kingdom of God' in many of his teachings - especially in his parables. In some cases, like Siddartha, he just referred to himself as the example of the Kingdom of Heaven' or what I would call 'Buddha Mind'. Here are some examples that address your question about whether or not Jesus taught his experience was only about something external: Gospel of Thomas: (3) Jesus said, If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty. (77) Jesus said, I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there. Beyond that I don't really wish to 'show you the real zen in Christianity'. I would much rather you discover the 'real zen' in and all around you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: Bill,  I am not familiar with the 'Kingdom of Heaven', but it sounds like something outside your mind, so it is not zen. It is dualism.  As regards Buddha's proclamation that he was the only one worthy of honor, along with your beloved story of Buddha holding a flower on Vulture Peak, was cooked up by later day mahayana. That is why Unmon Zen Master wanted to kill, not the Buddha, but the myth that had gone the wrong way. Unmon is the real zen.  Show me the real zen in Christiantity.  Anthony --- On Tue, 19/7/11, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: From: Bill! BillSmart@... Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 19 July, 2011, 4:51 PM  Anthony, For example... I believe Jesus experienced Original Mind (Buddha Mind) and described it has the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. His teachings describe this quite well in many places, but he did use the Jewish religious venacular of his time to express it. Christianity as a religion was something that was built on top of Jesus' experience and teachings. That's the religious shell that encapsulates His core teachings. I believe it's the same with Siddartha and Buddhism. The core is zen, and Buddhism is all the exteraneous stuff that was later added on by his followers. Jesus may have used the concept of monotheism to teach his experience of Oneness - just as Siddartha is supposed to have stated 'In Heaven above and Earth below, I alone am worthy of honor'. I'm sure Siddartha didn't mean he, Siddartha, was the only person worth of honor. He meant (IMO) that Original Mind (Buddha Mind) is the honored One. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@ wrote: Bill,  How can zen be the foundation of religions that demand blind faith in monodeity?  Anthony --- On Mon, 18/7/11, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: From: Bill! BillSmart@ Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 18 July, 2011, 9:40 AM  ED, DT Suzuki certainly is expressing below the results of a lot of discursive thinking. I don't agree with all of the details of his quote below, but I do agree with his central point - zen is the foundation of all. I consider DT Suzuki primarily a Buddhist scholar. Although he did study Zen Buddhism he never received 'inca' (permission to teach) as a dharma successor of any Zen master - that I know of. His books do address Buddhism and Zen Buddhism from a intellectual, scholarly perspective so this quote doesn't surprise me. He is not someone that I would look to or recommend as a great communicator of zen. Buddhsim and maybe Zen Buddhism - yes; but just plain old zen - no. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Hi zendervish, Bill and All, DT Suzuki appears to be indulging in a lot of un-zenlike discursive thinking, no? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
[Zen] Fwd: Why Take Refuge?
This email contains graphics, so if you don't see them, view it in your browser http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=archivetask=viewmailid=12key=310052a44fc6c7520dfd207bfa14c178subid=1-e332d91116010238dbb38d3400ef30be. http://www.heartchan.org Buy this book to get started. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1456466410 Buy This Book To Get Started!($14.99) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1456466410 http://www.chan-meditation.org/class-list.html Learn Chan Meditation online! http://www.chan-meditation.org/class-list.html Dear Dharma Friends, We often have heard the term of taking refuge. What does it mean spiritually? How is it differ from the formalities? The following is from our Chan Master for your reference. Thank you. Why take refuge? http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_k2view=itemid=37:why-take-refuge? For most of the people before their initiation into Buddhism, they take refuge. They take refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Some practices also require to take refuge in the Teacher. By taking refuge, the practitioner is destined to Buddhaland, or returning to the original spirit, with the help of the Buddha, Dharma and the Sangha. The purpose of taking refuge is to attain Buddhahood, but how? Let us investigate the definition of Buddha. The common definition of Buddha is the Awaken One. But that's somewhat abstract. Perhaps we can explore from another angle - where is Buddha from? Read More http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_k2view=itemid=37:why-take-refuge? 閱 讀中文原文，『皈依的真實義』，請點這裡 http://heartchan.org/zh/teaching/spiritual-practice/item/37-why-take-refuge?.html About Us Heart Chan is the teaching of Grand Chan Master Wu Jue Miao Tian. He is the 85th patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th patriarch since Bodhidarma and 48th patriarch of Linji School. He teaches that we all could be enlightened in this life. The Four Practices To Enlightenment Purity Detox our body, our mind and our spirit. Wisdom Detach from all forms. In Sync with the Heart of Buddha. Fulfillment Fulfill every encounter without question or expectation. Enlightenment True Nature Connects With Buddha. Follow meditatefirst on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/universalchan Not interested any more? Unsubscribe http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=usertask=optoutmailid=12subid=1key=e332d91116010238dbb38d3400ef30be
[Zen] secular practice
Thank you Mel. Indeed If I may support There are two sayings among our practitioners. The first one is a bit harsh.. How could you be Buddha, if you could not even be a good human? The second one is from the sutra, Fulfilling our secular responsibility is the prerequisite to spiritual enlightenment. If we can not see the wisdom in every encounter/incident/phenomena in lives around us, then we are living in separation from the truth. If we don't accept ALL as is -- still picking and choosing -- then we still are living in a dream constructed by our dualistic mind. The objective of Sitting Chan is to be enlightened to the truth of the universe, not into some exotic realm unrelated to the purpose of our lives. Yes, true enlightenment does uncover the super power within us. But it is merely for undertaking more karma more efficiently for all sentient beings. None of any of these is for our personal gain. In fact, there is nothing to gain and a lot to loose. :-) JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/13/2011 3:17 AM, Mel wrote: Hello Anthony, BII, and all That's quite ok if you find some kind inspiration or kick from what you refer to as the illogical or irrational side of zen/Zen. Personally, I don't promote, or support such ideas. To me, they're just extras I don't really need myself Somebody made quite a serious mistake with me today, and the fact that it was someone I trusted made the whole experience feel like a big kick in the gut. Nevertheless, one of my first reactions was...keep posture and head straight, chin in, and breath. It wasn't easy due to all sorts of dualistic notions going through my head, but I did it. Writing on paper or typing things up on cyber-space concerning any of my daily dramas are often therapeutic, although this is most dualistic. The better thing to do is head up, spine straight, and breath. Not easy, but quite possible The above is one kind of example I mean when I keep refering to zen and its connection with daily life. To hear stories such as ..'A sat in zazen posture. B asked A what he was doing, and A said,I want to be Buddha. B started polishing a tile. A asked B what he was doing, and B said,I'm trying to make a jewel, and A responded,How can you make a jewel with that tile?, and B responded,How do you become Buddha by zazen? is not really my cup of tea. Each and everyday that goes by gives me more than enough 'koan' to fill my need to be near Buddha in Buddha's grace, Mel ,_._,___
[Zen] Fwd: What Is A True Witness?
This email contains graphics, so if you don't see them, view it in your browser http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=archivetask=viewmailid=11key=e0339780f18993e9cafe233e83a9aed6subid=34-e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b. http://www.heartchan.org Buy this book to get started. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1456466410 Buy This Book To Get Started!($14.99) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1456466410 http://www.chan-meditation.org/class-list.html Learn Chan Meditation online! http://www.chan-meditation.org/class-list.html Dear Friends Of Dharma, Have you ever wondered what is True Practice and True Witness? True Practice True Witness http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_k2view=itemid=36:true-practice--true-witness *True Practice and True Witness* Practicing without any notion from our mind is the true practice. Every notion and intention of ours must be pure. When our mind is pure, all formed practices terminate. Our hearts will then be able to be detached from forms. We must maintain such state not only during meditation but also in our everyday life. This is what true practice is about. All formed, meaning concept or logic based practices, contain some kind of notion. All formless ways of practices contain no notion, no thoughts, no intention, no expectation. True witness occurs when our heart enters into Chan Ding. How? Empty all our notions. Surpass all our consciousness. Only then we can be still and enter equanimity and into deep meditative state of Ding, or simply Chan Ding. In this state, there is no impulse for you to create any karma. Remember, a pure mind allows us to generate pure words and pure actions, directly from our spirit. It is important that we don't create karma. True witness is not just a mental process. When your mind is pure, you are witnessing a profound realm, while at the same time, your body will also be participating in your witness. A witness is true only when our pure mind, pure heart and pure body participate together in the same witness. Read More http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_k2view=itemid=36:true-practice--true-witness About Us Heart Chan is the teaching of Grand Chan Master Wu Jue Miao Tian. He is the 85th patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th patriarch since Bodhidarma and 48th patriarch of Linji School. He teaches that we all could be enlightened in this life. The Four Practices To Enlightenment Purity Detox our body, our mind and our spirit. Wisdom Detach from all forms. In Sync with the Heart of Buddha. Fulfillment Fulfill every encounter without question or expectation. Enlightenment True Nature Connects With Buddha. Follow meditatefirst on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/universalchan Not interested any more? Unsubscribe http://heartchan.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=usertask=optoutmailid=11subid=34key=e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b
Re: [Zen] What is dharma?
Hello Anthony, Sorry that I managed to confuse you again. Let me confuse you some more... If you read the Buddhist sutras in Chinese, you will find conflicting statements all over.. 一心生萬法， 無住而生心，不可起心動念， etc. etc. are they the same or different. :-) The Chan that I have witnessed is not a philosophy or a science. It is a spiritual awakening. It contains koans and contradictions for the sole purpose to demolish our thinking process.. I am sort of glad that I have confused you. :-) Please do not try to understand or interpret or translate my words. All you have to do is to sit down, put down your thinking cap, then you will experience -- I mean spiritually. Yet, you may experience differently from mine. This is okay. None of our journeys are the same. We all are hindered by our karma somehow. Okay? Have a nice day. JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/6/2011 3:03 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, You say, ' we often did not realize these descriptions are ...from our conscious mind and not from our heart.' What is 'mind'? and what is 'heart'? How do you translate 'mind' and 'heart' into Chinese? As I told you, after searching into dictionaries and sutras, I can only find out that both words are represented by the same character 'xin'. So are you saying that we don't realize that the descriptions are from our conscious 'xin', not from our 'xin'? You also say, ' dharma is nothing but the universal law, also called cause and effect, or simply just karma.' You better run the heck from Bill. He is brandishing his big stick against you. Anthony --- On *Thu, 7/7/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] What is dharma? To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 7 July, 2011, 12:01 AM Good morning to All, Most of us begin by following what was taught by our teacher and the sutra. Diamond sutra stated, Dharma dharma contains no dharma. No dharma is also dharma. Some interpret this to mean, Dharma exists at every moment. Dharma is everyday life. Dharma is eat, sleep, walk... Yet, we often did not realize these descriptions are mere the form of dharma and the rationalization of dharma from our conscious mind and not from our heart. Yes, dharma indeed exists at every moment, but the dharma taught was beyond the visible and into the essence of all forms manifested. The dharma taught by Buddha and the sutra is not the visible manifestations of the dharma. When we are in sync with the transmission from the Heart of Buddha, which is the Heart of the Universe, or the essence or nature of the universe, or the characteristics of the universe, we will realize dharma is nothing but the universal law, also called cause and effect, or simply just karma. Just for your reference. JMJM Head Teacher Order of Chan -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org http://www.chan-meditation.org/ Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/
[Zen] What is dharma?
Good morning to All, Most of us begin by following what was taught by our teacher and the sutra. Diamond sutra stated, Dharma dharma contains no dharma. No dharma is also dharma. Some interpret this to mean, Dharma exists at every moment. Dharma is everyday life. Dharma is eat, sleep, walk... Yet, we often did not realize these descriptions are mere the form of dharma and the rationalization of dharma from our conscious mind and not from our heart. Yes, dharma indeed exists at every moment, but the dharma taught was beyond the visible and into the essence of all forms manifested. The dharma taught by Buddha and the sutra is not the visible manifestations of the dharma. When we are in sync with the transmission from the Heart of Buddha, which is the Heart of the Universe, or the essence or nature of the universe, or the characteristics of the universe, we will realize dharma is nothing but the universal law, also called cause and effect, or simply just karma. Just for your reference. JMJM Head Teacher Order of Chan -- Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org
Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan?
Hi Siska, Indeed, as soon as we start judging whether we have a discrimination mind or not, we are trapped. For convenience sake, we teach to abandon the mind and sense with the heart in our spiritual journey. Yet a wise discriminating mind is needed when we take care of secular affairs. We simply can not get rid of it. hahaha. JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/5/2011 5:40 PM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi JMJM, They don't accept ALL as is. They still live by selecting and filtering all the forms with their discriminating mind. We can accept ALL as is and still live with our discriminating mind. Trouble is, we often think our mind is no longer discriminating just by *accepting* ALL as is ;-) Siska *From: * Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com *Sender: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Date: *Sat, 02 Jul 2011 06:54:14 -0700 *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *ReplyTo: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? Hi Siska, Valid point. My teacher teaches, no matter how you experience physically, mentally or spiritually, awakening is the key. We have many practitioners experience all sorts of lights, presence of Buddha, but they can't see the wisdom of the universe - the interconnectedness, the cause and effect and the impermanence. They don't accept ALL as is. They still live by selecting and filtering all the forms with their discriminating mind. And that's not what Buddha taught us. JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/2/2011 12:46 AM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: Bill, The experience itself is, as you said, raw, unadulterated, immediate. Whatever value we put on the experience, or even the memory of the experience is already a work of discriminating mind. The mind discriminates that experience as 'Buddha Mind' or if you have no zen background, you'd probably call it something else. That is why I don't rely on my experience as much as anybody else's. It is not because of the experience itself, but rather because my mind cannot grasp the experience without being discriminative, without delusions. Siska *From: * Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org *Sender: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Date: *Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:48:18 - *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *ReplyTo: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? Siska, Also, referring again to your post below: You posted: If I experience it again some time later, perhaps after other experiences, I might understand it differently. Yes, that's true also - but (IMO) UNDERSTANDING your experience is just another example of post-processing by your discriminating mind. It's your discriminating mind that seeks to 'understand' everything - to put your memories of experiences into some kind of rational context. Buddha Mind does not seek understanding, nor context, nor categorization, nor the results of any of the other activities performed by your discriminating mind such as I listed below. Buddha Mind does not seek anything. It is just raw, unadulterated, immediate sensual experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Siska, What you've posted below is definitely true. If you are indeed interpreting your experience then you can't be sure about it. This interpretation is done by your discriminating mind. If however you halt your discriminating mind you can experience directly without any post-processing (filtering, augmenting, categorization, judgement, association, interpretation, etc...). This direct experience is what I call 'Just THIS!'. This direct experience (sans discriminating mind) goes by many other names: 'Buddha Mind', 'Original Mind', 'Face Before Your Mother Was Born', 'Mu', and can also be expressed non-verbally: 'slap on the floor', 'turning around and walking away', etc... This direct experience is the essence of zen (IMO), is the foundation of my zen practice and has been for over 40 years. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Bill, I'm not even sure of my own experience because what I know about it now is my current interpretation of the experience. If I experience it again some time later, perhaps after other experiences, I might understand it differently. If there is something I can be sure of, perhaps
Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan?
Hi Siska, Valid point. My teacher teaches, no matter how you experience physically, mentally or spiritually, awakening is the key. We have many practitioners experience all sorts of lights, presence of Buddha, but they can't see the wisdom of the universe - the interconnectedness, the cause and effect and the impermanence. They don't accept ALL as is. They still live by selecting and filtering all the forms with their discriminating mind. And that's not what Buddha taught us. JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 7/2/2011 12:46 AM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: Bill, The experience itself is, as you said, raw, unadulterated, immediate. Whatever value we put on the experience, or even the memory of the experience is already a work of discriminating mind. The mind discriminates that experience as 'Buddha Mind' or if you have no zen background, you'd probably call it something else. That is why I don't rely on my experience as much as anybody else's. It is not because of the experience itself, but rather because my mind cannot grasp the experience without being discriminative, without delusions. Siska *From: * Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org *Sender: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Date: *Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:48:18 - *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *ReplyTo: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? Siska, Also, referring again to your post below: You posted: If I experience it again some time later, perhaps after other experiences, I might understand it differently. Yes, that's true also - but (IMO) UNDERSTANDING your experience is just another example of post-processing by your discriminating mind. It's your discriminating mind that seeks to 'understand' everything - to put your memories of experiences into some kind of rational context. Buddha Mind does not seek understanding, nor context, nor categorization, nor the results of any of the other activities performed by your discriminating mind such as I listed below. Buddha Mind does not seek anything. It is just raw, unadulterated, immediate sensual experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Siska, What you've posted below is definitely true. If you are indeed interpreting your experience then you can't be sure about it. This interpretation is done by your discriminating mind. If however you halt your discriminating mind you can experience directly without any post-processing (filtering, augmenting, categorization, judgement, association, interpretation, etc...). This direct experience is what I call 'Just THIS!'. This direct experience (sans discriminating mind) goes by many other names: 'Buddha Mind', 'Original Mind', 'Face Before Your Mother Was Born', 'Mu', and can also be expressed non-verbally: 'slap on the floor', 'turning around and walking away', etc... This direct experience is the essence of zen (IMO), is the foundation of my zen practice and has been for over 40 years. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Bill, I'm not even sure of my own experience because what I know about it now is my current interpretation of the experience. If I experience it again some time later, perhaps after other experiences, I might understand it differently. If there is something I can be sure of, perhaps it is the uncertainty itself. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 01:50:48 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? Siska, I cannot be sure of my teachers' confirmation. I cannot be sure of anything but my own experience. Is there anything else you think you can be sure of? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Bill, How can you or anyone be sure of your/his teacher's confirmation? Is it not also illusory? Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:30:53 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? Siska, I am sure of this for several reasons: The most important reason and the only one that really matters is
Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan?
Indeed, Mel, Every word written or spoken is for the convenience of that moment. My Teacher often remind us, that his words are for our convenience. Every word from him or Buddha is dharma in form and not the real dharma, which is formless. Thank you for your post. JM Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... http://www.chan-meditation.org Chan in everyday life... http://www.chanliving.org To be enlightened in this life... http://www.heartchan.org To save our world... http://www.universal-oneness.org On 6/22/2011 1:58 AM, Mel wrote: I often have problems with seeing myself as a Buddhist of any sort let alone telling people about it, because I know for a fact that my beliefs are centered/based on the interpretations of today's modern day zen teachers such as senseis Deshimaru and (Shunryu) Suzuki. It has been a long time since the old man died and nobody really knew what he said except those who have actually spent time with him before he died. Nevertheless, I made the decision to stick with zen Fellow 'buddhists', there is no shame in saying or acknowledging that all we know today are highly likely to be corruptions of what the old prince may have uttered, but do we really care? Today, people see my Buddha pendant around my neck, my zen books, and bowings I make to my meals and images before me. Seeing such, many ask me if I'm Buddhist, and I just say yes out of convenience Buddha be praised Mel
[Zen] Why Practice Chan?
ED,
Well, these are important questions. Thank you for giving me the
opportunity to share.
* Value is a judgment call belonging to our mind. In other words
value is in a dualistic domain.
* Diamond sutra asked us to surpass the FOUR Notions from our
mind/consciousness. The first is SELF. SELF, or ego, or I, or my
thoughts, or my judgment, or my position, or my experience, or my
education, or my golden rule, or my believe, are all like an hour
or an inch (Alan Watts).
* After surpassing the Four Notions, the spirit/essence/heart/self
nature/buddha nature/Just This/awakening
unfold/occur/appear/surface/in sync/connect.
Buddha did not want his student to be attached to his words, that' why
he said that I said no dharma. Because awakening got to come from
within. Words are mere triggers depending on the
opportunity/context/emotions.
The more we think about the right/wrong, agree/disagree, sense/no sense,
or just what does it mean, we function deeper into our conscious mind
and become more difficult to awaken.
Heart Sutra is a good place to start. It simply said, first surpass our
five senses, then our sixth sense, which is the consciousness, our
seventh consciousness, then our eighth consciousness. We are awakened
when we surpasses all eight consciousness. Then we witness pure birghtness.
Through the practice of Heart Chan, that's our witness -- pure light --
purest form of energy -- pure chi. (Light could be difficult for
beginners. That's why we use chi instead) That's where we were all
from. Scientists call that Big Bang.
When we awaken from our delusional self, we will come to realize, that
nothing has value. Everything is propagated by cause and effect.
Everything is relative, interdependent, co-exist, transient and impermanent.
That's why Bill labeled his awakening with his term Just This. To me,
Just this is still too romantic, I call it as is with small cap.
Hahaha.
For your reference.
Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation...
http://www.chan-meditation.org
Chan in everyday life...
http://www.chanliving.org
To be enlightened in this life...
http://www.heartchan.org
To save our world...
http://www.universal-oneness.org
On 6/21/2011 6:10 AM, ED wrote:
JMJM,
What 'spirit'? What 'conscious mind'? What does have value? These are
assumptions and beliefs.
--ED
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com,
Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote:
Anthony, All words are just tools to wake up the spirit inside. Once
these words are being analyzed or categorized, they no longer have any
value, because instead of wake up the spirit, they hit upon the
conscious mind. :-)
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Re: [Zen] Re: Why Practice Chan?
A bow to Bill. Please accept my intrusion :-)
Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation...
http://www.chan-meditation.org
Chan in everyday life...
http://www.chanliving.org
To be enlightened in this life...
http://www.heartchan.org
To save our world...
http://www.universal-oneness.org
On 6/21/2011 5:39 PM, Bill! wrote:
JMJM,
I can live with 'as-is'! In fact I like it!
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com,
Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote:
ED,
Well, these are important questions. Thank you for giving me the
opportunity to share.
* Value is a judgment call belonging to our mind. In other words
value is in a dualistic domain.
* Diamond sutra asked us to surpass the FOUR Notions from our
mind/consciousness. The first is SELF. SELF, or ego, or I, or my
thoughts, or my judgment, or my position, or my experience, or my
education, or my golden rule, or my believe, are all like an hour
or an inch (Alan Watts).
* After surpassing the Four Notions, the spirit/essence/heart/self
nature/buddha nature/Just This/awakening
unfold/occur/appear/surface/in sync/connect.
Buddha did not want his student to be attached to his words, that' why
he said that I said no dharma. Because awakening got to come from
within. Words are mere triggers depending on the
opportunity/context/emotions.
The more we think about the right/wrong, agree/disagree, sense/no
sense,
or just what does it mean, we function deeper into our conscious mind
and become more difficult to awaken.
Heart Sutra is a good place to start. It simply said, first surpass our
five senses, then our sixth sense, which is the consciousness, our
seventh consciousness, then our eighth consciousness. We are awakened
when we surpasses all eight consciousness. Then we witness pure
birghtness.
Through the practice of Heart Chan, that's our witness -- pure light --
purest form of energy -- pure chi. (Light could be difficult for
beginners. That's why we use chi instead) That's where we were all
from. Scientists call that Big Bang.
When we awaken from our delusional self, we will come to realize, that
nothing has value. Everything is propagated by cause and effect.
Everything is relative, interdependent, co-exist, transient and
impermanent.
That's why Bill labeled his awakening with his term Just This. To me,
Just this is still too romantic, I call it as is with small cap.
Hahaha.
For your reference.
Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation...
http://www.chan-meditation.org
Chan in everyday life...
http://www.chanliving.org
To be enlightened in this life...
http://www.heartchan.org
To save our world...
http://www.universal-oneness.org
On 6/21/2011 6:10 AM, ED wrote:
JMJM,
What 'spirit'? What 'conscious mind'? What does have value? These are
assumptions and beliefs.
--ED
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com
mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com,
Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote:
Anthony, All words are just tools to wake up the spirit inside. Once
these words are being analyzed or categorized, they no longer
have any
value, because instead of wake up the spirit, they hit upon the
conscious mind. :-)
_ !-- #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial;
margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid
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[Zen] Why Practice Chan?
This email contains graphics, so if you don't see them, view it in your browser http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=archivetask=viewmailid=23key=95542c329c266f2d9e6120f9d265db23subid=1-e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b. http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=12mailid=23subid=1 Buy this book to get started. http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=23subid=1 Buy This Book To Get Started!($14.99) http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=23subid=1 http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=18mailid=23subid=1 Learn Chan Meditation online! http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=4mailid=23subid=1 Dear Friend, Please visit our new web site. It empowers you to participates with us online. Just click here or click on our header at the top http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=12mailid=23subid=1. Do let us know how you like it. Okay? Thank you. Below is a talk from our enlightened Chan Master Wu Jue Miao Tian for your reference. Why Practice Chan? *The purpose of practicing Chan is to establish a place for our life after death.* Why practice Chan? What is its purpose? From a religious point of view, whether it is Protestant, Catholicism, Buddhism or Islam, the common emphasis is to ferry our spirit. Jesus said that Believe in me, you shall live forever! Buddhism teaches the attainment of Buddhahood. How do we obtain everlasting life and land in heaven? Practicing Chan is the answer. Through out our life, most of us seek fame, fortune, political power, etc. Can we keep them after our death? What we really need to seek is a place for our afterlife. This way, we will not panic when our time comes to an end. This is the real purpose of practicing Chan. Though we probably don't know where we were from, we should at least be clear about where we will be going. At the least, we should have some control of our destiny. In Buddhism, the end game is enlightenment. *Surpass our physical lives and terminate reincarnation* When we are alive, through our senses, we could be pretty sure that we are living in a material world. However, this is not the world of our spirit. When our lives come to an end, where will our spirit be going? What do we know about the spiritual world? According to Buddhism, there are ten spiritual realms. From top down, they are Buddha, Bodhisattva, Sravaka, Pratyeka, Deity, human, Asura, Animal, Hungry Ghost and Hell. The realms below human contains mostly sufferings and disasters. The lower the realm, the worse the conditions are. The only way for us not to be in these realms is to practice Chan, purifying the karma from our previous lives, so that our spirit could be elevated to a higher realm. Perhaps even possible to be landed in the realm of Buddha or Bodhisattva, if we practice Chan with dedication. In other words, spirits are eternal. When our body die, our spirit will journey to a spiritual realm corresponding to the merits or karma accumulated throughout our lives. Therefore, when we die, it is not the end. It is just another beginning. This is the judgment as labeled by Christians and the reincarnation by Buddhist. On the other hand, practicing Chan enhances our spiritual purity. If majority of the people has purer spiritual quality, the society would be in general more peaceful and harmonious. For the first fifty years in Taiwan, though we had little material wealth, but we were generally happy and content. Different from nowadays, our society is filled with murder, violence, incest, etc. These are indications of being in those realms below human. It is urgent for us to practice Chan as soon as possible. Otherwise, there will be more natural disasters and man-made miseries. If war ever breaks out, we will be in the realm of hungry ghost and hell. *Liberate our spirit into everlasting joy* Simply, the purpose of the Chan practice is to be enlightened in this life. Some people may have difficulty in believing that. Such disbelief is usually resulted from thinking or analyzing with our physical human brain. Shakyamuni is as much a human as any of us. After six years of searching as an ascetic and six years of meditation under a Bodhi tree. Shakyamuni liberated his spirit from his body and his consciousness, and ultimately attained Buddhahood. Exemplified by his journey, he taught everyone of us, that we all could be enlightened also. We all possess Buddha nature. Just have to practice the authentic lineage Chan. What is an authentic lineage practice? It is an absolute practice liberating our spirit, terminating our reincarnation, and living in Buddha's bright lights forever. It is a practice enabling us to surpass the three realms of
[Zen] Fwd: The Spirit of Heart Chan?
This email contains graphics, so if you don't see them, view it in your browser http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=archivetask=viewmailid=22key=44af3609af03f6339243e94d4af2308asubid=1-e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b. http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=12mailid=22subid=1 Buy this book to get started. http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=22subid=1 Buy This Book To Get Started!($14.99) http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=22subid=1 http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=18mailid=22subid=1 Learn Chan Meditation online! http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=4mailid=22subid=1 Dear Friend In Dharma, We have the following from our Teacher to share with you. What Is Chan? For majority of the people, Chan is just sitting quietly, contemplate, or retrospect. Chan is actually far beyond just sitting quietly. Chan is living in purity, ease and carefree all day. In other words, Chan is the essence and spirit of all existence in the universe. There is a saying, walking, living, sitting and sleeping are all Chan. We humans are part of the universe, and therefore part of Chan, both our physical existence and our spiritual well being. The practice of Heart Chan is to comprehend the meaning of our life. What is it really about? Then we will be able to grasp its essence and key points. Chan is the study of the universe, therefore studying Chan can not be separated from living with all the universal relationships, which includes our relationship to animals, plants, solids, air and liquids in a very interactive way. The Spirit Of Heart Chan? Reduce our complex universe to oneness with our heart is Heart Chan. Then how do we carry out this oneness with the universe through our heart and be one with the One? Chinese scholar, Confuscius asked us to, Integrated with the universe. This is the spirit of Chan. Chan is more than just sitting there without moving. Mostly importantly, Chan is to integrate our mind and body. Balancing our mind and body is one of our tasks. Balancing our relationship with others in our family or at work, as well as with our possessions is also our task. Living our life without bias or conflict is Chan. Reaching a harmonious state for everything inside and outside of ourselves, in physical or spiritual relationships, in conceptual or practical mindsets or in lifestyles, is what the practice of Heart Chan is for. The goal of Heart Chan is to reach Purity, Wisdom, Fulfillment and Enlightenment through wisdom beyond our knowledge and experience. Heart Chan manifests naturally, when wisdom surfaces, and when we surpass the hindrance of our consciousness. Because, the practice of Heart Chan contains the superior wisdom and ability of the universe. Simply practice according to our instructions, our wisdom shall flourish. For instance, as we meditate without thinking, we are in essence surpassing the hindrance of our consciousness. We could then be in sync with our spirit. We could then receive the messages from our spirit. Because our spiritual inspiration is fundamentally wise as well as bright. This brightness makes us healthy, and integrates our mind. Heart Chan is the wisdom from Shakyamuni Buddha, which fine-tunes our physical and spiritual qualities. It enables a normal person to receive the essence of our life, to rejuvenate the cells in our body, to be healthy and joyful, to attain the spiritual wisdom, to elevate the spirit to a higher realm, to perfect a kind and beautiful personality, and powering a normal person to become a saint. In short, the spirit of Heart Chan is Surpassing oneself and enlightening others. About Us Heart Chan is the teaching of Grand Chan Master Wu Jue Miao Tian. He is the 85th patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th patriarch since Bodhidarma and 48th patriarch of Linji School. He teaches that we all could be enlightened in this life. The Four Practices To Enlightenment Purity Detox our body, our mind and our spirit. Wisdom Detach from all forms. In Sync with the Heart of Buddha. Fulfillment Fulfill every encounter without question or expectation. Enlightenment True Nature Connects With Buddha. Follow meditatefirst on Twitter http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=10mailid=22subid=1 Not interested any more? Unsubscribe http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=usertask=optoutmailid=22subid=1key=e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b
Re: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out?
Hi Bill, Still trying to learn about Just This. You are saying Just this is Buddha nature. If so... When you are in Buddha Nature, are you connected with Buddha Nature in others, or disconnected? Thanks, JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 6/3/2011 6:37 PM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, My responses are embedded below; Interesting. If your Just This is static, or distinctive moments then [Bill!] Just THIS! is not 'distinctive moment' is is the One Eternal Moment'. * When next moment appears, is that the same Just This or different? [Bill!] There is no 'next' moment. There is only - only Now. * Or when this moment is dying and next moment is about to appear, is there Just This, or not? [Bill!] Just THIS! is always now. There is no 'next moment'. * How do we transition from one Just This to another Just This, I mean in a static fashion? [Bill!] There is no 'next moment', only now - so there is no transistion. * Does your Just This change? [Bill!] 'Just THIS'! is a term I use to describe Buddha Nature. So...It is not MY Just THIS! (Buddha Nature). It is Just THIS! (Buddha Nature). The SUBSTANCE does not change. The FORM may appear to change. ...Bill! Thanks, JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 6/3/2011 3:31 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Just THIS! is static. It never changes. It's always Just THIS! Just as this moment is the only moment that exists, and that has ever existed and that ever will exist. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@ wrote: Hi Mike and Bill, Thank to the last two posts from Mike, I have an opportunity now to share about the essence of Sitting Chan. * Another perspective that we share is that our body is an illusion. Because our body is not ours, our body is a collection of sixty billion cells (not sure of the right number of zeros). Each of these cells is a sentient being contributing to our well being. Our wisdom is a collection of all their wisdom. When we sit, we are sitting for them, ferry each cell to Buddha land. Be grateful to each of them. We (the collective of all cell) are well only if every cell is well. Therefore, sitting is not to benefit ourselves, but benefit every sentient being inside and outside of us. Therefore, Enlightenment is not just a mental state. It need to be a total integration of our physical body as well. Buddhist call this crossing the three EONs of body, mind and spirit. * Chi is just an ancient Chinese label for energy. It is not important what it is called. Nor we need to understand or comprehend it. Because chi, or our life force, is the same life force that manifest everything else in the universe, the pebbles, the flowers, the stars and the sun. It is through this chi, we are connected. Without this chi, the universe is not alive. * What Bill's simplistic term of just this is the essence of zen, which is not wrong, but IMO it is incomplete. Just this is not static. Like everything else, it is dynamic. It is alive. It is true only in every moment. Like the stars, each relationship is a steady state maintained by energy. Without these life force, there is no relationship. IMO, without chi, just this is only a transient mental state and can not be maintained. The only way we can be in sync with the wisdom of every moment, is by keeping in pace with the rhythm of the life force. This is just simple physics. * Enlightenment is just a synchronization with the laws of the universe in real time in a dynamic way. This is for your reference. Thank you for your time, JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 6/2/2011 3:16 PM, mike brown wrote: Hi JM, Bill! and ED, Yes, I tend to agree with you here. We instinctively know when a certain pain is telling us, Stop what you're doing... NOW! in order to protect us. But the 'pain' from sitting with the spine erect, cross-legged on a cushion is not the same thing at all and is merely discomfort (often labelled as 'pain' in order to make us feel ok for giving in to it). Bill! often talks about
Re: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out?
Hi Bill, Interesting. If your Just This is static, or distinctive moments then * When next moment appears, is that the same Just This or different? * Or when this moment is dying and next moment is about to appear, is there Just This, or not? * How do we transition from one Just This to another Just This, I mean in a static fashion? * Does your Just This change? Thanks, JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 6/3/2011 3:31 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Just THIS! is static. It never changes. It's always Just THIS! Just as this moment is the only moment that exists, and that has ever existed and that ever will exist. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hi Mike and Bill, Thank to the last two posts from Mike, I have an opportunity now to share about the essence of Sitting Chan. * Another perspective that we share is that our body is an illusion. Because our body is not ours, our body is a collection of sixty billion cells (not sure of the right number of zeros). Each of these cells is a sentient being contributing to our well being. Our wisdom is a collection of all their wisdom. When we sit, we are sitting for them, ferry each cell to Buddha land. Be grateful to each of them. We (the collective of all cell) are well only if every cell is well. Therefore, sitting is not to benefit ourselves, but benefit every sentient being inside and outside of us. Therefore, Enlightenment is not just a mental state. It need to be a total integration of our physical body as well. Buddhist call this crossing the three EONs of body, mind and spirit. * Chi is just an ancient Chinese label for energy. It is not important what it is called. Nor we need to understand or comprehend it. Because chi, or our life force, is the same life force that manifest everything else in the universe, the pebbles, the flowers, the stars and the sun. It is through this chi, we are connected. Without this chi, the universe is not alive. * What Bill's simplistic term of just this is the essence of zen, which is not wrong, but IMO it is incomplete. Just this is not static. Like everything else, it is dynamic. It is alive. It is true only in every moment. Like the stars, each relationship is a steady state maintained by energy. Without these life force, there is no relationship. IMO, without chi, just this is only a transient mental state and can not be maintained. The only way we can be in sync with the wisdom of every moment, is by keeping in pace with the rhythm of the life force. This is just simple physics. * Enlightenment is just a synchronization with the laws of the universe in real time in a dynamic way. This is for your reference. Thank you for your time, JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 6/2/2011 3:16 PM, mike brown wrote: Hi JM, Bill! and ED, Yes, I tend to agree with you here. We instinctively know when a certain pain is telling us, Stop what you're doing... NOW! in order to protect us. But the 'pain' from sitting with the spine erect, cross-legged on a cushion is not the same thing at all and is merely discomfort (often labelled as 'pain' in order to make us feel ok for giving in to it). Bill! often talks about the illusionary aspect of phenomena - well what a perfect opportunity to put that to the test and see pain (NOT the disabling kind) as only a mental construct and sit thru it (the pain is not 'me' or 'mine' and is impermanent). Far from being cognitive, vipassana meditation 'uses' the body like a laboratory to really experience what is ultimate reality and what is illusionary. How many of us are satisfied with our zazen and then the whole house of cards comes crashing down with something simple like bad a toothache? I guess the key word is 'equanimity', but IMO, one can only realise it by going thru experience (trials and tribulations) and not thru merely reasoning about it. I don't know a great deal about chi, but given its long time use in Oriental medicine, it must have some merit. What I've found recently, is that my sitting time has lengthened considerably due to the insights gained from observing what is happening to the body/mind during the meditation session. Along with these insights, there does seem to be both a mental and physical 'unblocking' of sorts, with a feeling of energy being able to flow more easily. What this 'energy' is, and what
Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
Hi Bill and Mike, In our school, an effective sitting is the foundation to everything. That's sort of the only thing we are somewhat adamant about. If I may share with you some of the witnesses that I have from a few hundred cases in California. When we have pain, (not the bone fracture kind of pain, just the tendon, muscle kind), meanings our inner chi is trying to find new passages. When we focus and be one with it, the pain will diminish in time, because when we focus on it, instead of resisting it, we are applying our chi to it. Sort of acupuncture there with our mind instead of a needle. I call that soft-acupuncture. :-) We have many people began their practice with us, initially with lower back pain, sciatica, pain from spinal surgery, etc. All healed after a few months of sitting. Chi is our innate life force that energize itself wherever it was blocked. Check this one out, please http://www.chanliving.org/pain.html Since a few years ago, Bill has regarded Chi based sitting as illusory by his mind. If you could open your heart and welcomes all advice regardless of your judgmental mind, your pain probably already subsided by now. I love you, Bill, you know. I hope you can open up your heart and stop walk a certain path. Each path, though is not perfect, has its own merit. :-) Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 6/1/2011 11:00 PM, Bill! wrote: Mike, You can tough it out if you want. I'll wave the white flag. IMO physical pain is your body telling you that something is wrong. I try to listen to my body when it speaks. My approach to this is NOT what I was taught in my Japanese Zen Buddhist training. They also thought you ought to tough it out. I did that then, HOO-AH!, but I'm over that now. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or back... Usually pain in the legs or back is do to bad sitting posture... I disagree. Usually pain in the legs, hips, back, shoulders etc. is merely another word for 'discomfort' induced by sitting in one position and not brought on by anything serious. You could have the suppleness of a yogi or ballerina and still experience 'pain' from sitting for an hour - in contrast to the very real pain caused by something more serious. Vipassana meditation encourages you to face that discomfort and gain insight into the impermanence of that pain/discomfort and how our body/mind reactes to it (usually aversion). Or you could just wave a white flag to it ; )  Hooah! Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 2 June 2011, 9:48 Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism  Mike, Nice try but my attachment to my zafu is via my butt and not my discriminating mind. I don't contemplate the various attributes of my zafu while sitting. Like, 'What is it that keeps me off the floor?'. In sesshins (Japanese Zen Buddhist meditation retreats)I have sat as long as 40 mins periods, and even up to 60 mins occasionally when the time-keeper goes to sleep. I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or back. I will make some adjustments to try to alleviate the pain and continue sitting, but if that fails I'll just get up, walk around a little and then return to sitting. Usually pain in the legs or back is do to bad sitting posture so I make sure my posture is correct when I return to sitting. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, So it's safe to say you have no attacments to where or how you sit, other than what is comfortable at that particular time? Same with the jhanas. They take you deeper into your meditation and help to make the session last longer (much like discovering a zafu that fits your bum correctly ;) But they are not essential. There are warnings aplenty in the literature I've read against becoming attached to them just like anything else (at the risk of becoming a 'bliss-bunny'). I usually time my sittings between 40-60 mins depending on how busy I am. If I have time I'll do this twice a day, but at least once in the evening. I usually sit cross-legged, but will sometimes sit Burmese style. If I'm feeling that the session is going well (in a vipassana sense), but the pain is becoming too distracting, then I'll stay mindful of my movements, but change to a more comfortable position. However, the 40-60 min session is usually done with no movement or changing of position whatsoever (I wasn't kidding when I said vipassana
Re: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out?
Hi Mike and Bill, Thank to the last two posts from Mike, I have an opportunity now to share about the essence of Sitting Chan. * Another perspective that we share is that our body is an illusion. Because our body is not ours, our body is a collection of sixty billion cells (not sure of the right number of zeros). Each of these cells is a sentient being contributing to our well being. Our wisdom is a collection of all their wisdom. When we sit, we are sitting for them, ferry each cell to Buddha land. Be grateful to each of them. We (the collective of all cell) are well only if every cell is well. Therefore, sitting is not to benefit ourselves, but benefit every sentient being inside and outside of us. Therefore, Enlightenment is not just a mental state. It need to be a total integration of our physical body as well. Buddhist call this crossing the three EONs of body, mind and spirit. * Chi is just an ancient Chinese label for energy. It is not important what it is called. Nor we need to understand or comprehend it. Because chi, or our life force, is the same life force that manifest everything else in the universe, the pebbles, the flowers, the stars and the sun. It is through this chi, we are connected. Without this chi, the universe is not alive. * What Bill's simplistic term of just this is the essence of zen, which is not wrong, but IMO it is incomplete. Just this is not static. Like everything else, it is dynamic. It is alive. It is true only in every moment. Like the stars, each relationship is a steady state maintained by energy. Without these life force, there is no relationship. IMO, without chi, just this is only a transient mental state and can not be maintained. The only way we can be in sync with the wisdom of every moment, is by keeping in pace with the rhythm of the life force. This is just simple physics. * Enlightenment is just a synchronization with the laws of the universe in real time in a dynamic way. This is for your reference. Thank you for your time, JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 6/2/2011 3:16 PM, mike brown wrote: Hi JM, Bill! and ED, Yes, I tend to agree with you here. We instinctively know when a certain pain is telling us, Stop what you're doing... NOW! in order to protect us. But the 'pain' from sitting with the spine erect, cross-legged on a cushion is not the same thing at all and is merely discomfort (often labelled as 'pain' in order to make us feel ok for giving in to it). Bill! often talks about the illusionary aspect of phenomena - well what a perfect opportunity to put that to the test and see pain (NOT the disabling kind) as only a mental construct and sit thru it (the pain is not 'me' or 'mine' and is impermanent). Far from being cognitive, vipassana meditation 'uses' the body like a laboratory to really experience what is ultimate reality and what is illusionary. How many of us are satisfied with our zazen and then the whole house of cards comes crashing down with something simple like bad a toothache? I guess the key word is 'equanimity', but IMO, one can only realise it by going thru experience (trials and tribulations) and not thru merely reasoning about it. I don't know a great deal about chi, but given its long time use in Oriental medicine, it must have some merit. What I've found recently, is that my sitting time has lengthened considerably due to the insights gained from observing what is happening to the body/mind during the meditation session. Along with these insights, there does seem to be both a mental and physical 'unblocking' of sorts, with a feeling of energy being able to flow more easily. What this 'energy' is, and what is being 'unblocked' - I have no idea. Mike *From:* Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, 3 June 2011, 2:49 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism Hi Bill and Mike, In our school, an effective sitting is the foundation to everything. That's sort of the only thing we are somewhat adamant about. If I may share with you some of the witnesses that I have from a few hundred cases in California. When we have pain, (not the bone fracture kind of pain, just the tendon, muscle kind), meanings our inner chi is trying to find new passages. When we focus and be one with it, the pain will diminish in time, because when we focus on it, instead of resisting it, we are applying our chi to it. Sort of acupuncture there with our mind instead of a needle. I call
[Zen] Sitting
Dear All, The following are guidelines for Sitting Chan for your reference. * Our minimum requirement is half-lotus. Full lotus is twice as effective as half in the same period. * Connect to all ten chakras through all three chi channels is the minimum to reach Constant Turning of Dharma Wheel. * Usually within 45 minutes, entering into Chan Ding is possible. Only through Chan Ding can we reach the realm of truth. * Beyond one hour of sitting is not necessary, unless you are into the state of Chan Ding. * One simple way to enter Chan Ding is to focus on one chakra, narrow it down and enter into it. * Usually within three four months of daily sitting, you will experience something new. If not, then you are merely reincarnating at the same state. Surpassing our habits of sitting is then what's needed. * The goal of this sitting is to carry this state into our everyday life and be in sync with all forms. in other words in harmony with ALL. That ALL is ONE. Thank you for your attention. Let me know if you have any questions. JM -- Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org
[Zen] Fwd: Chan Diamond Sutra by Chan Master Wu Jue Miao-Tian
This email contains graphics, so if you don't see them, view it in your browser http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=archivetask=viewmailid=21key=b0d0787f9dbb8a20447a8585022e96d4subid=1-e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b. http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=12mailid=21subid=1 Buy this book to get started. http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=21subid=1 Buy This Book To Get Started!($14.99) http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=21subid=1 http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=18mailid=21subid=1 Learn Chan Meditation online! http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=4mailid=21subid=1 Dear All, We are very grateful to Professor Joyce PC Lo for her translation into English. We are very proud to share with you the following... Chan Diamond Sutra on Youtube Please click on the link below to view Diamong Sutra (1) http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=19mailid=21subid=1 E-Mail http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=20mailid=21subid=1 Please let us know your comment. Email us http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=20mailid=21subid=1 if you have any questions. About Us Heart Chan is the teaching of Grand Chan Master Wu Jue Miao Tian. He is the 85th patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th patriarch since Bodhidarma and 48th patriarch of Linji School. He teaches that we all could be enlightened in this life. The Four Practices To Enlightenment Purity Detox our body, our mind and our spirit. Wisdom Detach from all forms. In Sync with the Heart of Buddha. Fulfillment Fulfill every encounter without question or expectation. Enlightenment True Nature Connects With Buddha. Follow meditatefirst on Twitter http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=10mailid=21subid=1 Not interested any more? Unsubscribe http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=usertask=optoutmailid=21subid=1key=e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b
[Zen] Words, dharma school
Good morning to All, As you know, Chan is taught without words or formalities. After 49 years, Buddha said that he did not say a single word. Why is that? Chan is the totality of all concepts and no concept. Chan is the entirety and wholeness of the universe and is emptiness in nature. All dharma once spoken is no longer dharma. All truth once explained is no longer complete. If I may emphasize for your reference, every school has its logic, approach and effectiveness. Each is different because of karma. It is also because of karma that each of us enters a different school. Yet at the same time, we and school are both just forms. All discrimination against any concept, school or comment from practitioner is resulted from our own attachment to forms. In this case, the forms of words, logic and dharma. It is just our ego at work and not our Buddha Nature. Instead of looking into the forms containing all the impermanence, incompleteness and relativity, it is our practice to look deeper into their hearts and intentions piercing through the man made inefficient tool of language. At the end, you may just find that we are no different from the other. Each is our mirror. Just my opinion for your reference, JM -- Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org
[Zen] No need of all the different dharma to ferry all the different hearts.
This email contains graphics, so if you don't see them, view it in your browser http://chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=archivetask=viewmailid=19key=f976eb8ee2c6490bebbc004e4b779af6subid=1-e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b. http://chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=12mailid=19subid=1 Buy this book to get started. http://chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=19subid=1 Buy This Book To Get Started!($14.99) http://chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=19subid=1 Learn Chan Meditation Online http://chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=4mailid=19subid=1 Learn Chan Meditation online! http://chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=4mailid=19subid=1 Dear Friends In Dharma, Good day to you. We have the following quotes to share with you. Buddha's Quote For the purpose of ferrying every heart, Buddha customized every possible dharma. If there no existence of all the different hearts, there is no need for all the different dharma. Our Teacher's Quote Chan Is One. And This One Is ALL. Chan is the universe, including the visible and the invisible, the static and the dynamic, the permanent and the transient, the form and the formless, the cause and the effect, or in short the entirety, or just the ALL To be one with the ONE is to be all with the ALL, inside and outside of us, insync and not insync, mental and spiritual, logical and illogical, like and dislike, etc. The heart of Buddha is the hearts of all sentient beings. Thank you for you time to read this. JMJM Head Teacher The Order of Chan About Us Heart Chan is the teaching of Grand Chan Master Wu Jue Miao-Tian. He is the 85th patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th patriarch since Bodhidarma and 48th patriarch of Linji School. He teaches that we all could be enlightened in this life. The Four Practices To Enlightenment Purity Detox our body, our mind and our spirit. Wisdom Detach from all forms. In Sync with the Heart of Buddha. Fulfillment Fulfill every encounter without question or expectation. Enlightenment True Nature Connects With Buddha. Follow meditatefirst on Twitter http://chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=10mailid=19subid=1 Not interested any more? Unsubscribe http://chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=usertask=optoutmailid=19subid=1key=e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b
Re: [Zen] Re: Self Nature
ED, Thank you for your concern. I thank you. Let me say a few things about the value of my posts. * My teacher does not want us to record, memorize, take notes, catalog his speeches, because when the moment passes, they are no longer valid, because they will be out of context --- emotional, logical, sequential and circumstantial context. So did Buddha and Jesus. * My teacher always remind us that Diamond Sutra said nothing. It is just a tool for awakening. * My posts are not mine. Most of my posts are borrowed, copied, plagiarized from some where. They are very very narrow in scope, while I suppose to cover ALL, because that is what Chan is. Chan is ALL. Therefore my posts are always partial and incomplete by nature. * My posts server one purpose, to awaken someone. Often that someone may not be the person named in the post. * To conclude, my posts contains no value, especially after the effect. Thank you for thinking of me.:-) Have a nice day. JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 5/20/2011 6:27 AM, ED wrote: Bill, In your opinion, is this below an acceptable 'Zen' teaching, or is it an unnecessary accretion to Zen? JMJM, the above is an honest and straightforward question, which I hope does not offend you. Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Our tradition's main emphasis is a practice. By focusing on our heart to sync the heart of the universe, we shall witness self nature. Our practitioners has also witness the heart to be the core, the chi, the center, the essence, the love, the current, the energy, the big chakra, the conduit, the whole being, the entirety, etc.
Re: [Zen] Re: Self Nature
Ah, Edgar, you finally showed up. Thank you ED. This is the same story that I have heard in Chinese. The moral of the story is, any personal opinion may hinder the journey of others. That's why many teachers in China only repeat phrases from the sutra. And if you read the sutra, you actually find them to be like riddles or koan. jm Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 5/20/2011 8:36 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Good story. Because Bill denies causation he is doomed to be reincarnated as a fox for 500 lives! Edgar On May 20, 2011, at 10:56 AM, ED wrote: Hyakujo's Fox When Hyakujo Osho delivered a certain series of sermons, an old man always followed the monks to the main hall and listened to him. When the monks left the hall, the old man would also leave. One day, however, he remained behind, and Hyakujo asked him, Who are you, standing here before me? The old man replied, I am not a human being. In the old days of Kashyapa Buddha, I was a head monk, living here on this mountain. One day a student asked me, 'Does a man of enlightenment fall under the yoke of causation or not?' I answered, 'No, he does not.' Since then I have been doomed to undergo five hundred rebirths as a fox. I beg you now to give the turning word to release me from my life as a fox. Tell me, does a man of enlightenment fall under the yoke of causation or not? Hyakujo answered, He does not ignore causation. No sooner had the old man heard these words than he was enlightened. Making his bows, he said, I am emancipated from my life as a fox. I shall remain on this mountain. I have a favour to ask of you: would you please bury my body as that of a dead monk. Hyakujo had the director of the monks strike with the gavel and inform everyone that after the midday meal there would be a funeral service for a dead monk. The monks wondered at this, saying, Everyone is in good health; nobody is in the sick ward. What does this mean? After the meal Hyakujo led the monks to the foot of a rock on the far side of the mountain and with his staff poked out the dead body of a fox and performed the ceremony of cremation. That evening he ascended the rostrum and told the monks the whole story. obaku thereupon asked him, The old man gave the wrong answer and was doomed to be a fox for five hundred rebirths. Now, suppose he had given the right answer, what would have happened then? Hyakujo said, You come here to me, and I will tell you. Obaku went up to Hyakujo and boxed his ears. Hyakujo clapped his hands with a laugh and exclaimed, I was thinking that the barbarian had a red beard, but now I see before me the red-bearded barbarian himself. http://oaks.nvg.org/gate-struggles.html#2 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hi Bill, Sorry to admit that I have not read any English book about Zen. Please send me something. Thank you, JM
Re: [Zen] Re: Self Nature
Anthony, to awaken someone :-) Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 5/20/2011 2:50 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, You say, 'Diamond Sutra said nothing. It is just a tool for awakening.' If so, why do you keep quoting it? Are you aware that Diamond Sutra was composed at least 500 years after Buddha's demise? That is a consensus of modern Buddhist scholars. Nevertheless, it is an excellent sutra. Anthony --- On *Fri, 20/5/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Self Nature To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 20 May, 2011, 10:39 PM ED, Thank you for your concern. I thank you. Let me say a few things about the value of my posts. * My teacher does not want us to record, memorize, take notes, catalog his speeches, because when the moment passes, they are no longer valid, because they will be out of context --- emotional, logical, sequential and circumstantial context. So did Buddha and Jesus. * My teacher always remind us that Diamond Sutra said nothing. It is just a tool for awakening. * My posts are not mine. Most of my posts are borrowed, copied, plagiarized from some where. They are very very narrow in scope, while I suppose to cover ALL, because that is what Chan is. Chan is ALL. Therefore my posts are always partial and incomplete by nature. * My posts server one purpose, to awaken someone. Often that someone may not be the person named in the post. * To conclude, my posts contains no value, especially after the effect. Thank you for thinking of me.:-) Have a nice day. JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com http://www.chan-meditation.com/ Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org http://www.chanliving.org/ Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org http://www.universal-oneness.org/ On 5/20/2011 6:27 AM, ED wrote: Bill, In your opinion, is this below an acceptable 'Zen' teaching, or is it an unnecessary accretion to Zen? JMJM, the above is an honest and straightforward question, which I hope does not offend you. Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart@... wrote: Our tradition's main emphasis is a practice. By focusing on our heart to sync the heart of the universe, we shall witness self nature. Our practitioners has also witness the heart to be the core, the chi, the center, the essence, the love, the current, the energy, the big chakra, the conduit, the whole being, the entirety, etc.
Re: [Zen] Re: Fwd: The Awakening Of Heart
Hi Daniel, Thank you for your response. Words are difficult to communicate spiritual witnesses, especially what I was taught are in Chinese. The following is my best effort for the moment for your reference. :-) 1. sync = resonate in the macro sense, and not in the detailed meaning sense. 2. Chan Ding is the gateway into the True Realm, some call it samadhi. It is practiced by sensing a chakra, focusing on the chakra and entering into the chakra. I hope these words communicated. JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 5/15/2011 5:57 PM, empty0grace wrote: Hi Donald, I have tried to get this posted several times today, but keep on getting an error message. So if this message appears multiple times, in various wordings, you know why. _ Thanks for posting that piece by your teacher. I appreciate hearing language from a different tradition that is intuitively intelligible to me, especially the integration of the being in all its dimensions, within the Heart of course, which is the place of integration! How wonderful to know that we are contemplating the same reality. If I have understood correctly, heart to heart transmission is central to your tradition, is it not? I can sense the truth of it because my own reality brightens and deepens when I read the words of your teacher. I have some questions for you when you find the time…. 1/ Could you clarify what is meant by synching? He places it between hearing and awakening. Perhaps he just means the intuition of the transmission? 2/ Chan Ding: I think I read somewhere that this is the Chinese term of samatha, or at least samadhi practice. But what is the object of this samadhi? Is it the three signs of being as in the practice of satipatthana? Or perhaps the voidness samdhi that results by and by from the contemplation of the three signs? Something else? How is it practiced? Best wishes, Daniel --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: This email contains graphics, so if you don't see them, view it in your browser http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=archivetask=viewmailid=18key=27e7181cd94ee9b6bc69021cf15ddbafsubid=1-e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=archivetask=viewmailid=18key=27e7181cd94ee9b6bc69021cf15ddbafsubid=1-e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b. http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=12mailid=18subid=1 http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=12mailid=18subid=1 Buy this book to get started. http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=18subid=1 http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=18subid=1 Buy This Book To Get Started!($14.99) http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=18subid=1 http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=18subid=1 Learn Chan Meditation OnlineLearn Chan Meditation online! http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=4mailid=18subid=1 http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=4mailid=18subid=1 Dear All, I have really enjoyed this talk, I hope that you like it too. Talk From Chan Master The Awakening Of Heart http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=11mailid=18subid=1 http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=11mailid=18subid=1 ã€æ‚Ÿè¦º 妙天禪師開示集â‚精進修行ã€`悟心 當修行進入éˆä¿®çš„階段，也就是è¦å›žåˆ°è‡ªæ€§çš„階段； æ¤æ™‚，ä¸ç®¡åœ¨ä½•æ™‚何地，都 è¦è®ã€Œå¿ƒã€ä¿æŒå¹³éœï¼Œè™•æ–¼æ¸…淨的狀態。 當然這需è¦è‡ªæˆ`è¨ç·´ï¼Œæ¯å¤©ä¸ç®¡æ˜¯åœ¨çŸ æ´»ä¸ï¼Œé‚„是在禪定時，都è¦èƒ½ 隨時「悟心ã€ï¼Œä¸¦èˆ‡å¸«ç›¸å°ï¼Œé€™æ¨£æ‰èƒ½é–‹æ‚Ÿè§£è„«ã€‚ æ–‡ï¼æ‚Ÿè¦ºå¦™å¤©ç¦ªå¸« 「悟心ã€å°ä¿®è¡Œä¾†èªªæ˜¯å¾ˆé‡è¦çš„。當æˆ`å€`在è½æ³•å¸«èªªæ³•çš„時候，應 該è¦ä»¥å¿ƒä¾†ç›¸ å°ï¼Œè¦åŽ»æ‚Ÿå¿ƒã€‚å³ä½¿åªæ˜¯ä¸€å¥å¾ˆå¹³å¸¸çš„è©±ï¼Œå¦‚æžœä½ èƒ½å¤ å› æ¤è€Œé–‹æ‚Ÿï¼Œå°±å¯ä»¥å°‡å®ƒ 轉為智慧；å¦å‰‡å°±æ˜¯è½è€Œä¸èžï¼Œæ²'æœ‰ä»»ä½•æ„ ç¾©ã€‚æ›å¥è©±èªªï¼Œä½ è¦å¾žã€Œè½ã€ã€ 「èžã€é–‹å§‹ï¼Œç„¶å¾Œç›¸æ‡‰è€Œæ‚Ÿå¿ƒï¼›ä¹Ÿå°± 是å°æ³•å¸«æ‰€èªªçš„法è¦æœ‰æ‰€é–‹æ‚Ÿï¼Œè€Œä¸å¹³å¸¸å°± è¦é–‹æ‚Ÿé€™äº›éç†ï¼Œé‚£éº¼å®ƒ 就會化æˆè¬æ³•ã€‚ å› ç‚ºç•¶ä½ ã€Œæ‚Ÿå¿ƒã€æ™‚，身心是統一的，也就是ä½ä½åœ¨è‡ªæ€§ï¼›å¦‚æžœæ¤ æ™‚ä½ å°æ‰€èžä¹‹ 法有所悟，就能「一心çŸè¬æ³•ã€ã€‚修行è¦å¾žé€™è£¡é–‹å§‹ã€‚ æ¤å¤–，還è¦ç¦ªå®šã€‚簡單地 說，ç
Re: [Zen] Newbie - hello question
Hello Beverly, Having your non-comparing mindset is the essence of Chan. Comparing is always relative and reincarnates itself into endless hell. Also for your information... Long Shu Bodhisatva (龍樹） brought Chan to Tibet way back then. In China, Chan is nick named The Grand Secret Lineage/Vajrayana/Mizong (大密宗）, while Tibetan practice is just Secret Lineage（密宗）. Some knowledge for your non-Buddhist friend, though knowledge is never our emphasis. FYI, JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 5/16/2011 8:38 AM, Beverley Huish wrote: Hi, I'm a newbie in this group, and to Buddhism. I sincerely don't want to upset anyone or start an argument. I want to join in this discussion, and this has cropped up so I'm asking the question. I told a friend today that I feel Buddhism is for me, and I'm looking into Zen. My friend replied that Tibetan Buddhism is a more spiritual type of Buddhism because they believe in God. Having looked into various types of Buddhism, he believes that the Buddha communicated higher information, including the existence of God, to Tibetan Buddhists because they were more spiritually evolved at that point - Tibetan Buddhists claim this is the case and my friend agrees with them, he says. My response was to say that different things appeal to different people and I don't think it's a matter of one being more 'spiritual' or more 'true' than another. (I really don't care what might considered 'higher' or more 'spiritual' - at the moment that is irrelevant to me. However, it did seem a kind of un-Buddhist thing to claim that oneself is better than another person? My friend is not a Buddhist.) What do other people think? Thank you. :-) Beverley.
Re: [Zen] Newbie - hello question
Hello Again, Beverly, Buddhist sutra as recorded document is something for the educational circle to get a degree with. Buddha dharma on the other hand is for everyone to uphold, practice and live it with their heart. And Buddha further said, I did not 'talk' about any dharma Not uttered a single word. :-) JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 5/16/2011 10:29 AM, Beverley Huish wrote: Thank you, JM, :-) One of the things that appeals to me about Buddhism is that it is non-judgemental. I'm also glad to have you say that knowledge isn't Buddhism's emphasis - there seems to be an awful lot of it about different types of Buddhism. (I already decided that I'm not going to make any effort to pick up what I don't need to know, or when I don't feel I can take anything else new on - unfortunately, being a newbie Buddhist, I don't know what I really need to know to be a Buddhist. I'm just focussing on mindfulness at the moment and hoping / trusting that other information will come to me as I'm ready to receive it.) :-) Beverley. *From:* Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Monday, 16 May, 2011 17:47:27 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Newbie - hello question Hello Beverly, Having your non-comparing mindset is the essence of Chan. Comparing is always relative and reincarnates itself into endless hell. Also for your information... Long Shu Bodhisatva (龍樹） brought Chan to Tibet way back then. In China, Chan is nick named The Grand Secret Lineage/Vajrayana/Mizong (大密宗）, while Tibetan practice is just Secret Lineage（密宗）. Some knowledge for your non-Buddhist friend, though knowledge is never our emphasis. FYI, JM Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org On 5/16/2011 8:38 AM, Beverley Huish wrote: Hi, I'm a newbie in this group, and to Buddhism. I sincerely don't want to upset anyone or start an argument. I want to join in this discussion, and this has cropped up so I'm asking the question. I told a friend today that I feel Buddhism is for me, and I'm looking into Zen. My friend replied that Tibetan Buddhism is a more spiritual type of Buddhism because they believe in God. Having looked into various types of Buddhism, he believes that the Buddha communicated higher information, including the existence of God, to Tibetan Buddhists because they were more spiritually evolved at that point - Tibetan Buddhists claim this is the case and my friend agrees with them, he says. My response was to say that different things appeal to different people and I don't think it's a matter of one being more 'spiritual' or more 'true' than another. (I really don't care what might considered 'higher' or more 'spiritual' - at the moment that is irrelevant to me. However, it did seem a kind of un-Buddhist thing to claim that oneself is better than another person? My friend is not a Buddhist.) What do other people think? Thank you. :-) Beverley.
[Zen] Fwd: The Awakening Of Heart
This email contains graphics, so if you don't see them, view it in your browser http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=archivetask=viewmailid=18key=27e7181cd94ee9b6bc69021cf15ddbafsubid=1-e03d724addde9d8df20fd2c66de4087b. http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=12mailid=18subid=1 Buy this book to get started. http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=18subid=1 Buy This Book To Get Started!($14.99) http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=1mailid=18subid=1 Learn Chan Meditation OnlineLearn Chan Meditation online! http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=4mailid=18subid=1 Dear All, I have really enjoyed this talk, I hope that you like it too. Talk From Chan Master The Awakening Of Heart http://www.chanliving.org/index.php?option=com_acymailingctrl=urlurlid=11mailid=18subid=1 【悟覺 妙天禪師開示集│精進修行】悟心 當修行進入靈修的階段，也就是要回到自性的階段； 此時，不管在何時何地，都 要讓「心」保持平靜，處於清淨的狀態。 當然這需要自我訓練，每天不管是在生 活中，還是在禪定時，都要能 隨時「悟心」，並與師相印，這樣才能開悟解脫。 文／悟覺妙天禪師 「悟心」對修行來說是很重要的。當我們在聽法師說法的時候，應 該要以心來相 印，要去悟心。即使只是一句很平常的話，如果你能夠 因此而開悟，就可以將它 轉為智慧；否則就是聽而不聞，沒有任何意 義。換句話說，你要從「聽」、 「聞」開始，然後相應而悟心；也就 是對法師所說的法要有所開悟，而且平常就 要開悟這些道理，那麼它 就會化成萬法。 因為當你「悟心」時，身心是統一的，也就是住位在自性；如果此 時你對所聞之 法有所悟，就能「一心生萬法」。修行要從這裡開始。 此外，還要禪定。簡單地 說，禪定就是一種「時空的超越」。如果不 經過禪定，就會受到時空的限制；因 為我們都是生活在感官的世界 裡。所謂感官的世界就是時空的世界；生活在時空 的世界就是生活在 一個蛋殼的世界裡。 一定要經過禪定，才能出離到蛋殼之外，才真正與真實的世界接觸。否則，你只停 留在無常的世界裡，根本無法得知實相的世界在何方，也不知道它是一個什麼樣的 世界。所以，禪行者一定先要知道修行的目的就是要找到心靈的歸 宿，也就是要 把握源頭。若能如此，必能在這一世成就，回到妙喜佛 國。 如果你能體悟源頭在哪裡，進而掌握它，那麼不管師父在何處，你都會有感應。因 為印心佛法是無相、實相的法門，是心靈與心靈的結合、心靈與心靈的通達、心靈 與心靈的交感、心靈與心靈的相印。如果你在平日禪修時，都能保持 身心愉快， 隨時接到清淨智慧的本性，你這一世必能成就。 When our journey is entering into the state of spiritual cultivation, or in other words, returning to our self nature, keeping our heart in peace and pure at all times and all places is the practice. This does require dedication and effort. Regardless whether we are in-or-out of meditation, we need to awaken our heart, sync it with that of our Teacher's, for us to awaken and be liberated. Chan Master Wu Jue Miao-Tian In the journey of Chan, the awakening of heart is most important. When we were listening to the dharma talk of a Teacher, we need to sync our hearts with it and to awaken our heart, even if it is just an ordinary phrase. If you could be awakened from it, then this phrase would be transformed into wisdom. Otherwise it would be meaningless, if you just hear but don't listen. In other words, we must begin with hearing, then listening, then syncing then awakening. Not limiting to the moment of the dharma talk, but at all times, if we could awaken ourselves to these truth, then we could applied them in ten thousand ways. Because when we are awakened, our body, mind and spirit are integrated, and guided by our self nature. Under such condition, all awakening could be flourished into ten thousand dharma by our heart. It is from here we begin our spiritual cultivation. Of course, most importantly we need to enter Chan Ding, or Jhana. Chan Ding transcends time and space. Without it, we would be bound by time and space. We are living in a sensory world through our physical organs. Sensory world is a dimension of time and space. Living in this world of time and space is like living in an egg-shell. Only through Chan Ding, could we then be able to break out of the egg shell. Could we then reach the true world. Otherwise, as we reside in a domain of impermanence, we would be unable to know what is the truth and where to find it. The first objective for Chan practitioners is finding the home of our heart, or keeping connected with our origin. Then we could be enlightened in this life, and return to Miao-Shi Buddha Land. If you could awaken to realize your origin, keep connected with it, then you would be in sync no matter where you Teacher is. Heart Chan Dharma is a formless, yet true dharma. It is the unification of heart with heart, the transmission of heart-to-heart, the resonance of heart-to-heart, the synchronization of heart-to-heart. If you could keep your body and heart in joy at all times, you would witness the purity and wisdom of your nature. You would be enlightened in this life. About Us Heart Chan is the teaching of Grand Chan Master Wu Jue Miao Tian. He is the 85th patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th patriarch since Bodhidarma and 48th patriarch of Linji School. He teaches that we all could be enlightened in this life. The Four Practices To Enlightenment Purity Detox our body, our mind and our spirit. Wisdom Detach from all forms. In Sync with the Heart of Buddha. Fulfillment Fulfill every encounter without question or expectation. Enlightenment True Nature Connects With Buddha. Follow Universal Chan on Twitter
[Zen] Our Nature Is Our Spirit
Good morning to all, When we were born, we were all child-like -- free, easy, happy-go-lucky, healthy, etc. As soon as we experienced that there were situations or people that could make us sad or hurt us, our defense system relative to these phenomena were constructed. Slowly our child-like nature is protected and shielded off from rest of the world. Slowly we became isolated more and more and we began to associate only with people had similar experiences. While some school teaches to realize the emptiness of all phenomena through understanding, acceptance and rationalization by seeing the nature of all things, my Teacher taught us to surpass, go beyond with our heart and elevate our spirit. Surpass in our school, means to surpass our mind. Go beyond all understanding, acceptance and rationalization. How? When we are able to pump enough energy into our child-like heart, our heart will shine through the clouds of our mind. When our embedded natural spirit of compassion and wisdom in our heart are strong enough, we become fearless. This is possible, as I have witnessed, if we practice with the kind of practice with ways and techniques to pump energy into our hearts. Then all defense mechanism will automatically fall away and we could become child-like again. Our heart will be fearless and shine through all defense shields and be connected once again with every sentient being like a child, free, easy, happy and healthy. This is the true awakening of our spirit, which is the essence of true nature. We will then no longer be separated. We will be whole and complete with the universe. This is why, Buddha taught no dharma. My Teacher constantly asked us to go beyond his words, let our hearts shine through and be in touch with our true nature, which is the nature of the universe. This is why our words and my words are not important, but your practice is. The proper way to Sit in Chan, or sit in the life's energy and wisdom of the universe is critically important. Do not judge or filter. Follow your heart. Thank you for your attention. JMJM Head Teacher Order of Chan -- Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken http://www.chan-meditation.com Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony http://www.chanliving.org Learn to reach enlightenment http://www.heartchan.org To save the world http://www.universal-oneness.org
[Zen] Fwd: Donald Hwong wants you to see this item at Amazon.com
Amazon.com Yao Donald Hwong mailto:donald.hw...@gmail.com requested that we send this e-mail. If you have questions about Amazon.com, please visit our Help Department http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/508510/ref=cm_sw_em_r_n_dp_9leUnb0X0F4NY_h . *Donald writes:* With special permission from our Master, this book of Tri-Channel Meditation『九轉玄功』 is finally on the market. As you all know, Tri-Channel Meditation used to be exclusively taught as the foundation for our Secret Inner Witness『秘密內證法』. Thank you for your attention. JM Destress Energize Awaken Through Chan Meditation: A Unique Meditative Practice Adopted and Supported by Medical Professionals, Scientists and ... of Years in China, Vol. 1 (Volume 1) http://www.amazon.com/Destress-Energize-Awaken-Through-Meditation/dp/1456466410/ref=cm_sw_em_r_n_dp_9leUnb0X0F4NY_im Destress Energize Awaken Through Chan Meditation: A Unique Meditative Practice Adopted and Supported by Medical Professionals, Scientists and ... of Years in China, Vol. 1 (Volume 1) http://www.amazon.com/Destress-Energize-Awaken-Through-Meditation/dp/1456466410/ref=cm_sw_em_r_n_dp_9leUnb0X0F4NY_tt by Yao Donald Hwong 5.0 out of 5 stars http://www.amazon.com/Destress-Energize-Awaken-Through-Meditation/product-reviews/1456466410/ref=cm_sw_em_r_n_dp_9leUnb0X0F4NY_r_img?ie=UTF8showViewpoints=1 (5 customer reviews http://www.amazon.com/Destress-Energize-Awaken-Through-Meditation/product-reviews/1456466410/ref=cm_sw_em_r_n_dp_9leUnb0X0F4NY_r_txt?ie=UTF8showViewpoints=1) Price: $14.99 7 used new http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1456466410/ref=cm_sw_em_r_n_dp_9leUnb0X0F4NY_un?ie=UTF8condition=all from $14.98 *In Stock * Learn More http://www.amazon.com/Destress-Energize-Awaken-Through-Meditation/dp/1456466410/ref=cm_sw_em_r_n_dp_9leUnb0X0F4NY_lm Please note that product prices and availability are subject to change. Prices and availability were accurate at the time this e-mail was sent; however, they may differ from those you see when you visit Amazon.com. © 2011 Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. Amazon, Amazon.com, the Amazon.com logo, and 1-Click are registered trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates. Amazon.com, 410 Terry Avenue N., Seattle, WA 98109-5210. Please note that this message was sent to the following e-mail address: donald.hw...@gmail.com mailto:donald.hw...@gmail.com
[Zen] Jhana in our teacher's words
Good morning to all, This morning I was forwarded some Beginner's QA, translated from Chinese to English, to be uploaded to our website. It is talking about Chan Ding (Jhana States). I post below for your reference. Do let me know your comment. Thank you for your time. JM - The meditative state of Ding refers to the fact that during meditation a person enters a state that is free of consciousness. A person’s consciousness is in the constant process of change as thoughts come and go all the time. How to transform this state of consciousness into one of non-consciousness? The answer lies in reaching the state of “no-I.” For instance, the earth has no consciousness thus it is tolerant and accepting no matter how many living beings reside on it and how many buildings stand on it. Because it is in the state of “No-I” and is not conscious of anything, there is no consciousness to affect it. In order to enter the meditative state of Ding, one needs to practice Chan meditation; one enters the realm of non-consciousness after one’s mind and body are in balance. Once in such a state, one is not aware of any consciousness nor of “I”. One is in a most purified state when not being affected by any conscious activities, and the inspirations that have never occurred before often come to one’s mind when one is in a most purified state. Writing is an example. When the writer is so absorbed in the writing process that he enters the state of “no-I”, then inspirations strike, and he does not believe afterwards that he could have accomplished such a wonderful piece of work! This happens because he has transformed from a state of consciousness into a state of non-consciousness, in other words he has transcended the time and space – there is no past, no present, no future, no you, no I, no others, and this is the consciousness-free state of meditative of Ding. If a person has rich experience in entering the meditative state of Ding he will unintentionally come across truth and wisdom that are beyond the scope of the conscious world. So Chan practitioners cannot afford to ignore the importance of entering the meditative state of Ding. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
[Zen] Could it be possible?
Hi Ed, Have you thought of the possibility that all our thoughts, emotions, sensations are just various vibrations of energy, or chi as we call it? Could it be possible, heart, mind, spirit, organ are all one of the same -- just different forms of energy? Could it be possible that it is this energy that's transforming matter, and matters to energy? Could it be possible, this is the scientific parallel of the Heart Sutra, forms are emptiness. Emptiness is form. to our naked eye, while 2,000 years ago, there is no science about the concept of energy yet? Could it be possible, ALL is just energy, or as we often call it, ONE? :-) JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/23/2011 8:10 AM, ED wrote: Anthony, Many the world over express 'good' feelings such as love, affection, kindness etc. as being associated with the heart. We talk about persons 'having no heart' or being 'heart-broken', or being 'heartless' or 'heartful'. I believe that such speech is symbolic. However, I do not rule out the possibility that affectives experience sensations, feelings and 'spirituality' in a somewhat different way than do intellectuals. This conjecture could possibly be checked out via fMRI studies. After reading the first article on jhana states by Jay Michaelson, posted here by Mike Brown, I am not only underwhelmed by what anyone, including myself, has to say about these matters; but I am also unmoved by any feelings or sensations anyone, including myself, experiences in any organ of the body in connection with any spiritual practice. Possibly only the experience of no-self and non-duality are worthy of note, and I have a lot of doubts and many questions about this too. --ED Maybe I am wrong, but JM keeps evading my questions, so I have no way to learn more. Anthony --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: ED, The Chinese language does not have a single word that represents 'mind', so 'xin' is used for both heart and mind, resulting in the former encompassing a bigger scope than the latter, as you describe below. I have been wondering why JM keeps emphasizing 'heart' while disparaging 'mind'. I don't think his Chinese only speaking teacher makes that distinction. After arguing with JM, I started to think thathe takes 'heart' to denote something more directly in connection with senses, while 'mind' is reserved for 'intellect'. Maybe I am wrong, but JM keeps evading my questions, so I have no way to learn more. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: Heart
ED, Thank you for being so courteous and respectful. This is not an issue at all... Continue to do what you believe is proper... I fully understand. A lot of times, my teacher says nothing as his response. Not even a smile or a wink sometimes. I don't get into views or perspectives, because it is such a interpretive domain and causes all sorts of misunderstanding in a forum of words. I have learned, to share only what I have witnessed. Otherwise I am like parrot. To me, all human expressions are second hand at best, incomplete, relative and context driven. Of course, including everything I say or think or behave. Goethe said, Civilization is but a physical manifestation of life That is also why sutras are never clear. Sutra were written for us to be awakened from inside and not written to persuade some theory or logic. When you have a chance I would recommend that you read Diamond Sutra. The bible of Chan. With respect, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/23/2011 10:54 AM, ED wrote: Mayka and JM, If and when I do not respond to your posts, it's not because I am shunning you. It is because we do not appear to be able to communicate with each other - and this is nobody's 'fault.' Nevertheless, please do not hold back from expressing your views on my messages, and I may do likewise as appropriate. I tend to focus on view-points, and attach little significance if any to the specific individual expressing those points of view. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordeloto@... wrote: ED; I'm not sure If I'm understanding well your sayings here but no intention of interfering in any with your way of seeing life etc... I'm under the impression that your confusion here comes due to you doing too much reading and not experiencing in you that. The Buddha stated very clearly not to believe in anything he said, but experience first and then choose to believe or not believe. A bit like Chris pointed out the other day something on this lines: First experience afterwards think. But you seem to keep doing in other way round: first you do massive reading to stimulate even more your intellectual thinking and then you experience the consequences of that mental intellectual thinking. This is why you are confuse now. In the light interbeing and the heart of prajanaparamitra sutra or Heart Sutra: Emptiness is form, form is emptiness and the same is with perceptions, mental formations, consciousnessImpossible to understand this in the intellectual thinking form. So you have no more choice but to give up and start to do some sitting to start with. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Re: Heart
Mayka Dear, You know very well what you just said will never happen. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/23/2011 2:42 PM, Maria Lopez wrote: /ED;/ /JMJM and myself role of boddhisatvas has been released, Yupii / /Thank you/ /Mayka/ --- On *Sat, 23/4/11, ED /seacrofter...@yahoo.com/* wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Heart To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 April, 2011, 18:54 Mayka and JM, If and when I do not respond to your posts, it's not because I am shunning you. It is because we do not appear to be able to communicate with each other - and this is nobody's 'fault.' Nevertheless, please do not hold back from expressing your views on my messages, and I may do likewise as appropriate. I tend to focus on view-points, and attach little significance if any to the specific individual expressing those points of view. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordeloto@... wrote: ED; I'm not sure If I'm understanding well your sayings here but no intention of interfering in any with your way of seeing life etc... I'm under the impression that your confusion here comes due to you doing too much reading and not experiencing in you that. The Buddha stated very clearly not to believe in anything he said, but experience first and then choose to believe or not believe. A bit like Chris pointed out the other day something on this lines: First experience afterwards think. But you seem to keep doing in other way round: first you do massive reading to stimulate even more your intellectual thinking and then you experience the consequences of that mental intellectual thinking. This is why you are confuse now. In the light interbeing and the heart of prajanaparamitra sutra or Heart Sutra: Emptiness is form, form is emptiness and the same is with perceptions, mental formations, consciousnessImpossible to understand this in the intellectual thinking form. So you have no more choice but to give up and start to do some sitting to start with. Mayka
[Zen] Heart
Hi Maria, It seems that you are now the only one mentioning heart. Please let me support by making a few statements for those heart-less sentient beings in the forum. hahaha. :-) just having some fun. Heart in our school carries two meanings. It is a label indicating a location in the middle of our chest to let our Self Nature unfold or to reach Kensho. It is where we will be in sync with the Nature of the Universe(satori). Heart in our school also means the essence of all phenomena visible and invisible. Hence the heart(the spirit or essence) within us is not difference from the heart of the universe.(the spirit or essence). They are one of the same. Therefore we call our Heart Chan Practice a pure spiritual practice. Heart carries no memory, no knowledge nor does it analyze. Heart is pure chi, compassion and wisdom. Hence, heart makes no judgment and accept all phenomena as is. Heart is the direct connection to every moment. Heart could not function if otherwise. Heart is our Grand Central station as per Daniel. As we integrate all chakras in our body into one, all chi channels into one. Our entire being integrates one. We become one heart or one spirit or one essence. (Actually it is rather abstract. Sorry.) Then we are able to sync with the heart of the universe. It is a gradual process and increases in frequency. Then suddenly our heart, or essence of our being is completely in sync from the location of our heart to the essence of the universe. Throughout this journey, there is no need for the mind to appear. There is no need for thinking, understanding, debating, arguing. Just sit, as always emphasized by Bill. Just sense and feel with the heart. More often than not, once that occurs, the first reaction is usually tears. We call that, you found home. :-) JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/21/2011 8:01 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: /Correction:/ // /Oops, I clicked the wrong word over the spellcheker in previous post. I meant: No one can steal the heart as we all have it in us. We can only be awakened in the heart. / // /Mayka /
Re: [Zen] Heart
Hi Anthony, Thank you for your continual interest in heart and its various meaning and interpretations. My teacher would answer your question the following way-- It is for me to say and for you to experience. Diamond Sutra would say, The heart is not heart just named heart. Buddha practice first then described his journey. I am here merely described my journey of my practice. My description itself has no value whatsoever. They are just words. I am sorry if I have confused you. Please forgive me. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/21/2011 3:44 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Are you analyzing and intellectualizing? Don't worry. I am not criticizing you. Gotama himself did a lot of that. How can I criticize the Buddha? In this human world, we cannot avoid it. The reason I keep asking you about 'heart' is that I am trying to figure out what your 'Heart Chan' is all about. You say, 'Throughout this journey, there is no need for the mind to appear. ' What do you mean by 'mind'? The fact that there is no Chinese word for 'mind' gives rise to misunderstanding. Since 2 thousand years ago, 'xin' has been used to translate both heart and mind. But in English they are differeent things. Lets look into your favorite book Diamond Sutra: We should develop a mind that does not abide in anything The words caused Huineng to have his first insight. Now if I say, we should not develop a heart that does not abide in anything. Bill's stick is waiting for me, because he thinks I am going to be cool hearted and cruel. Anthony --- On *Fri, 22/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Heart To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 22 April, 2011, 1:19 AM Hi Maria, It seems that you are now the only one mentioning heart. Please let me support by making a few statements for those heart-less sentient beings in the forum. hahaha. :-) just having some fun. Heart in our school carries two meanings. It is a label indicating a location in the middle of our chest to let our Self Nature unfold or to reach Kensho. It is where we will be in sync with the Nature of the Universe(satori). Heart in our school also means the essence of all phenomena visible and invisible. Hence the heart(the spirit or essence) within us is not difference from the heart of the universe.(the spirit or essence). They are one of the same. Therefore we call our Heart Chan Practice a pure spiritual practice. Heart carries no memory, no knowledge nor does it analyze. Heart is pure chi, compassion and wisdom. Hence, heart makes no judgment and accept all phenomena as is. Heart is the direct connection to every moment. Heart could not function if otherwise. Heart is our Grand Central station as per Daniel. As we integrate all chakras in our body into one, all chi channels into one. Our entire being integrates one. We become one heart or one spirit or one essence. (Actually it is rather abstract. Sorry.) Then we are able to sync with the heart of the universe. It is a gradual process and increases in frequency. Then suddenly our heart, or essence of our being is completely in sync from the location of our heart to the essence of the universe. Throughout this journey, there is no need for the mind to appear. There is no need for thinking, understanding, debating, arguing. Just sit, as always emphasized by Bill. Just sense and feel with the heart. More often than not, once that occurs, the first reaction is usually tears. We call that, you found home. :-) JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/21/2011 8:01 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: /Correction:/ // /Oops, I clicked the wrong word over the spellcheker in previous post. I meant: No one can steal the heart as we all have it in us. We can only be awakened in the heart. / // /Mayka /
Re: [Zen] Heart
Hi Mayka, True. Chan way is just one of many paths shaping our colorful lives. Along the way we all witness the same thing. Just label them differently. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/21/2011 5:54 PM, Maria Lopez wrote: /Thank you JMJM for your response and support./ // /Although I'm not into the form of Chan as a vehicle to the heart, I can both appreciate and understand your dharma here. It sounds very simple and wise. I copy and paste below the essentials of the heart beyond any spiritual tradition only with the purpose of giving a sense of space and freedom from any spiritual tradition form bondage. There has been many people who awakened in the heart and they didn't use the form of chakra ways. / // /Heart carries no memory, no knowledge nor does it analyze. heart makes no judgment and accept all phenomena as is. Heart is the direct connection to every moment. Heart could not function if otherwise. Heart is our Grand Central station as per Daniel./ // /Throughout this journey, there is no need for the mind to appear. There is no need for thinking, understanding, debating, arguing./ // /Just sense and feel with the heart/ /Mayka / --- On *Thu, 21/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Heart To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 21 April, 2011, 18:19 Hi Maria, It seems that you are now the only one mentioning heart. Please let me support by making a few statements for those heart-less sentient beings in the forum. hahaha. :-) just having some fun. Heart in our school carries two meanings. It is a label indicating a location in the middle of our chest to let our Self Nature unfold or to reach Kensho. It is where we will be in sync with the Nature of the Universe(satori). Heart in our school also means the essence of all phenomena visible and invisible. Hence the heart(the spirit or essence) within us is not difference from the heart of the universe.(the spirit or essence). They are one of the same. Therefore we call our Heart Chan Practice a pure spiritual practice. Heart carries no memory, no knowledge nor does it analyze. Heart is pure chi, compassion and wisdom. Hence, heart makes no judgment and accept all phenomena as is. Heart is the direct connection to every moment. Heart could not function if otherwise. Heart is our Grand Central station as per Daniel. As we integrate all chakras in our body into one, all chi channels into one. Our entire being integrates one. We become one heart or one spirit or one essence. (Actually it is rather abstract. Sorry.) Then we are able to sync with the heart of the universe. It is a gradual process and increases in frequency. Then suddenly our heart, or essence of our being is completely in sync from the location of our heart to the essence of the universe. Throughout this journey, there is no need for the mind to appear. There is no need for thinking, understanding, debating, arguing. Just sit, as always emphasized by Bill. Just sense and feel with the heart. More often than not, once that occurs, the first reaction is usually tears. We call that, you found home. :-) JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/21/2011 8:01 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: /Correction:/ // /Oops, I clicked the wrong word over the spellcheker in previous post. I meant: No one can steal the heart as we all have it in us. We can only be awakened in the heart. / // /Mayka /
Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release
Hi Anthony， Actually he never used the mind word. He always say we need to tune down the 『意識心』 and let the 『本心』 shine through. Or translated literally into English, [original heart] and [conscious heart]. Let me know if you have more question. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/16/2011 2:35 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, I believe all mental functions you mention can be included in the 'mind', but 'chi' is not there. So roughly I think your 'heart' is 'mind' plus 'chi'. You have not answered my question: what does your teacher say in Chinese when he refers to 'heart' and 'mind'? Anthony --- On *Sat, 16/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 6:32 AM Somewhat Yes, Anthony. To be exact to our teaching, the Heart Chakra, is what I usually refer to as the location of the heart, which is not the organic heart, nor is just an energy point. It is just the center of the energy point. The Heart Chakra however is not the heart that I refer to either. The Heart that I refer to is the collective feeling, sensing, wisdom, energy, joy, sadness, etc. etc. our entire being, physiological, mental and spiritual combined, unified, integrated into one, yet it is invisible and formless. Let me ask you this, does the mind IYO, includes all of this or not? I could be wrong, but I understand that the mind does not include all this. For instance, the Heart that I refer to definitely includes energy, or chi and emotions. Does the mind include that? If not, then heart is the term communicates my experience more accurately. Well? JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/15/2011 2:45 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Without the heart pumping blood to the brain. The brain is dead.' Equally correct is 'without a living brain, the heart can only pump blood for a zombie, or for another person it is transplanted into.' Since you pay attention to chakras, I suspect your 'heart' has to do with the heart chakra, which Tantra considers an important center. Is it right? Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 9:50 PM Yes, Anthony, no problem. The heart includes the mind. But the mind does not contain the heart. As Daniel said, heart is the grand central station. Forget the Chinese definition, just feel it. :-) JM. Or, perhaps, think in physiological term. Without the heart pumping blood to the brain. The brain is dead. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/15/2011 6:05 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Don't think I am making trouble for you. I am just curious. On your part, you have not 'conquered your terminology' either, because you keep enhancing the 'heart' and disparaging the 'mind'. I am wondering what your teacher says in Chinese referring to 'heart' and 'mind'. As far as I can see from my limited knowledge, both are referred to in Chinese by 'xin'. In general, they are the same, but sometimes they may mean different things. That is why I keep asking. My question is not about terminology, but you say you have different experiences with regard to the mind and the heart. Can you elaborate? Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 7:53 AM Hi Anthony, I understand that you trying to discuss
[Zen] In My Teacher's words.
Hello Anthony, Since you are interested to know what does my teacher say in Chinese. Here they are. His words may sound harsh, but his attitude is kind and compassionate. You are talking about the history of Zen/Chan and the definition of Zen/Chan and what is Zen to you as well as what Zen should be. My teacher would label these as practices with our conscious mind or 『意 識心』, which is cycles of notion after notion. This practice will not stop reincarnation. I was taught Chan to be a practice with our original heart or 『本 心』。 And our “original heart” will rise and awaken us to the Ultimate Truth. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/16/2011 3:17 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Both zen and chan originate from the Indian word 'jhana'. But they mean different things now. Originally the oldest Chan from Tiantai school is not much different from the Indian 'jhana'. But now you keep saying 'Chan is equal to the whole universe'. I find it hard to understand. Anthony --- On *Sat, 16/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 1:11 PM Ah, thank you Mike. Do you know what I just found out? Jhana in Chinese is Chan. So, I guess naturally that's also what Zen is. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/15/2011 9:53 PM, mike brown wrote: Anthony, I'm not sure if this is a step forward,or a step backward, in my practice (my intuition says 'forward' for me, but not necessarily for other people), but due to recent happenings I can empathise alot more with where JM is coming from. Before last week.JM's language was utterly alien to me and seemed to have no connection with the Zen I was familiiar with. Now I'm not so sure. I think Zen without incorporating the absorbtions (jhanas) and 'heart' can be dry and a little compassionless, but maybe Chan without Zen's hard reality is a little too fuzzy and a bit too 'fairy' worshiping. That might not make sense to most, if not all here, but it does to me. Further, I don't think Zen is completely removed from notions such as chi, chakras etc. After all, in some schools focus is directed to the 'hara' as a place of holding energy. It is this that is cut in seppeku (hara kiri) to release a person's ki (chi). Mike *From:* Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wu...@yahoo.com.sg *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Fri, 15 April, 2011 22:16:28 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release JM, Now you have strong allies. Maybe Mike and/or ED can shed light on the 'heart' and the mind. Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 7:53 AM Hi Anthony, I understand that you trying to discuss from a logic or definition of words. I am not saying whether I am correct or wrong. At the beginning of my journey I am like you. I struggle with these terms as well. As I said, it took me six year to conquer my terminology. Actually, all my posts are from my experience. My experience like Daniel's youtube is center in the heart and not in the brain. It is a whole body experience. And this experience coincide more and more with my Teacher's teaching as time passes. Don't mean to confuse you. I also like to say, in my states, there is no mind and no heart, just chi, electricity and lights. The key point IMO, is that state of kensho, satori, or even just Jhana can not sustained without chi, which is labeled as vital energy by Daniel. Of course, my experience could also be labeled as maya by Bill. :-) It is not important what I say or experience. It is only important what you experience. As you well know, Buddha said clearly in Diamond sutra that He said NO dharma. Best, JM Be Enlightened
Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release
Absolutely. It is us. The universe is perfect at every moment. Thank you, Mayka. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/16/2011 2:44 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: Mike wrote: I think Zen without incorporating the absorbtions (jhanas) and 'heart' can be dry and a little compassionless, but maybe Chan without Zen's hard reality is a little too fuzzy and a bit too 'fairy' worshiping. --- To me in the real essence of zen any adjectives are out of place. To me zen is the ultimate step one does. Many people embrace zen without been ready for it. As they are not ready they become arrogant individualistic pricks cold as ice. Even when zen is something available to everyone the same, more and more my imimpressionith it is that it's only suitable and of real benefit for a minority of people who have already in them a sense of non separation, unity, universal oneness and therefore a heart. Differently, agree with you that we need from other sources in your case the Jhanas in my case TNH zen buddhism and and the image created in my mind as a model of the heart in Jesuschrist beyond any religious institution. Zen doesn't lack of anything but we do. Mayka --- On *Sat, 16/4/11, mike brown /uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk/* wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 5:53 Anthony, I'm not sure if this is a step forward,or a step backward, in my practice (my intuition says 'forward' for me, but not necessarily for other people), but due to recent happenings I can empathise alot more with where JM is coming from. Before last week.JM's language was utterly alien to me and seemed to have no connection with the Zen I was familiiar with. Now I'm not so sure. I think Zen without incorporating the absorbtions (jhanas) and 'heart' can be dry and a little compassionless, but maybe Chan without Zen's hard reality is a little too fuzzy and a bit too 'fairy' worshiping. That might not make sense to most, if not all here, but it does to me. Further, I don't think Zen is completely removed from notions such as chi, chakras etc. After all, in some schools focus is directed to the 'hara' as a place of holding energy. It is this that is cut in seppeku (hara kiri) to release a person's ki (chi). Mike *From:* Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Fri, 15 April, 2011 22:16:28 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release JM, Now you have strong allies. Maybe Mike and/or ED can shed light on the 'heart' and the mind. Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 7:53 AM Hi Anthony, I understand that you trying to discuss from a logic or definition of words. I am not saying whether I am correct or wrong. At the beginning of my journey I am like you. I struggle with these terms as well. As I said, it took me six year to conquer my terminology. Actually, all my posts are from my experience. My experience like Daniel's youtube is center in the heart and not in the brain. It is a whole body experience. And this experience coincide more and more with my Teacher's teaching as time passes. Don't mean to confuse you. I also like to say, in my states, there is no mind and no heart, just chi, electricity and lights. The key point IMO, is that state of kensho, satori, or even just Jhana can not sustained without chi, which is labeled as vital energy by Daniel. Of course, my experience could also be labeled as maya by Bill. :-) It is not important what I say or experience. It is only important what you experience. As you well know, Buddha said clearly in Diamond sutra that He said NO dharma. Best, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/14/2011 4:10 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, What is 'mind'? What is 'heart'? What is the difference between 'mind' and 'heart'? Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote
Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release
Yes, Anthony, no problem. The heart includes the mind. But the mind does not contain the heart. As Daniel said, heart is the grand central station. Forget the Chinese definition, just feel it. :-) JM. Or, perhaps, think in physiological term. Without the heart pumping blood to the brain. The brain is dead. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/15/2011 6:05 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Don't think I am making trouble for you. I am just curious. On your part, you have not 'conquered your terminology' either, because you keep enhancing the 'heart' and disparaging the 'mind'. I am wondering what your teacher says in Chinese referring to 'heart' and 'mind'. As far as I can see from my limited knowledge, both are referred to in Chinese by 'xin'. In general, they are the same, but sometimes they may mean different things. That is why I keep asking. My question is not about terminology, but you say you have different experiences with regard to the mind and the heart. Can you elaborate? Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 7:53 AM Hi Anthony, I understand that you trying to discuss from a logic or definition of words. I am not saying whether I am correct or wrong. At the beginning of my journey I am like you. I struggle with these terms as well. As I said, it took me six year to conquer my terminology. Actually, all my posts are from my experience. My experience like Daniel's youtube is center in the heart and not in the brain. It is a whole body experience. And this experience coincide more and more with my Teacher's teaching as time passes. Don't mean to confuse you. I also like to say, in my states, there is no mind and no heart, just chi, electricity and lights. The key point IMO, is that state of kensho, satori, or even just Jhana can not sustained without chi, which is labeled as vital energy by Daniel. Of course, my experience could also be labeled as maya by Bill. :-) It is not important what I say or experience. It is only important what you experience. As you well know, Buddha said clearly in Diamond sutra that He said NO dharma. Best, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/14/2011 4:10 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, What is 'mind'? What is 'heart'? What is the difference between 'mind' and 'heart'? Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 3:36 AM Wow, Thank you ED. I have watched the first one. HuangDi Neijing said it very clearly for 2,000 years, Our Shen, or inner divine, requires the support of Qi or Chi. Personally, having a high tech BG, it took me 6 years to wake up to the fact that our Teaching is not about our mind. It is about our entire being. And at the center of it, is our heart. That's my witness. Now there is someone else too. Thank you again, ED. Lovely day today. :-) JM BTW, I was just informed that our version of Diamond Sutra is on youtube with English subtitle. http://www.youtube.com/joycedaolian#p/u/4/ROkmtB1fB8I Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/14/2011 10:25 AM, ED wrote: Mike, two more tapes by Empty_Grace. I experience this guy as knowing what he is talking about. JM, he has good things to say about the Heart. --ED The Three Dimensions of Release http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejQsIFDrb4MNR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejQsIFDrb4MNR=1 Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-4Vw54Dabwfeature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-4Vw54Dabwfeature=related Part 2
Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release
Anthony, Ally is not important. So far no one that I know in this forum said anything about the heart. And it has been what six or seven years now, I am still talking about the heart and you are still asking and Bill continue rejecting the chi. These are all labels in the first place. That's what life is. That's what Chan is. Everything is as is. The key is to recognize that we are all driven by karma. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/15/2011 6:16 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Now you have strong allies. Maybe Mike and/or ED can shed light on the 'heart' and the mind. Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 7:53 AM Hi Anthony, I understand that you trying to discuss from a logic or definition of words. I am not saying whether I am correct or wrong. At the beginning of my journey I am like you. I struggle with these terms as well. As I said, it took me six year to conquer my terminology. Actually, all my posts are from my experience. My experience like Daniel's youtube is center in the heart and not in the brain. It is a whole body experience. And this experience coincide more and more with my Teacher's teaching as time passes. Don't mean to confuse you. I also like to say, in my states, there is no mind and no heart, just chi, electricity and lights. The key point IMO, is that state of kensho, satori, or even just Jhana can not sustained without chi, which is labeled as vital energy by Daniel. Of course, my experience could also be labeled as maya by Bill. :-) It is not important what I say or experience. It is only important what you experience. As you well know, Buddha said clearly in Diamond sutra that He said NO dharma. Best, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/14/2011 4:10 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, What is 'mind'? What is 'heart'? What is the difference between 'mind' and 'heart'? Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 3:36 AM Wow, Thank you ED. I have watched the first one. HuangDi Neijing said it very clearly for 2,000 years, Our Shen, or inner divine, requires the support of Qi or Chi. Personally, having a high tech BG, it took me 6 years to wake up to the fact that our Teaching is not about our mind. It is about our entire being. And at the center of it, is our heart. That's my witness. Now there is someone else too. Thank you again, ED. Lovely day today. :-) JM BTW, I was just informed that our version of Diamond Sutra is on youtube with English subtitle. http://www.youtube.com/joycedaolian#p/u/4/ROkmtB1fB8I Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/14/2011 10:25 AM, ED wrote: Mike, two more tapes by Empty_Grace. I experience this guy as knowing what he is talking about. JM, he has good things to say about the Heart. --ED The Three Dimensions of Release http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejQsIFDrb4MNR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejQsIFDrb4MNR=1 Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-4Vw54Dabwfeature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-4Vw54Dabwfeature=related Part 2
Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release
Ah, thank you Mike. Do you know what I just found out? Jhana in Chinese is Chan. So, I guess naturally that's also what Zen is. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/15/2011 9:53 PM, mike brown wrote: Anthony, I'm not sure if this is a step forward,or a step backward, in my practice (my intuition says 'forward' for me, but not necessarily for other people), but due to recent happenings I can empathise alot more with where JM is coming from. Before last week.JM's language was utterly alien to me and seemed to have no connection with the Zen I was familiiar with. Now I'm not so sure. I think Zen without incorporating the absorbtions (jhanas) and 'heart' can be dry and a little compassionless, but maybe Chan without Zen's hard reality is a little too fuzzy and a bit too 'fairy' worshiping. That might not make sense to most, if not all here, but it does to me. Further, I don't think Zen is completely removed from notions such as chi, chakras etc. After all, in some schools focus is directed to the 'hara' as a place of holding energy. It is this that is cut in seppeku (hara kiri) to release a person's ki (chi). Mike *From:* Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Fri, 15 April, 2011 22:16:28 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release JM, Now you have strong allies. Maybe Mike and/or ED can shed light on the 'heart' and the mind. Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 7:53 AM Hi Anthony, I understand that you trying to discuss from a logic or definition of words. I am not saying whether I am correct or wrong. At the beginning of my journey I am like you. I struggle with these terms as well. As I said, it took me six year to conquer my terminology. Actually, all my posts are from my experience. My experience like Daniel's youtube is center in the heart and not in the brain. It is a whole body experience. And this experience coincide more and more with my Teacher's teaching as time passes. Don't mean to confuse you. I also like to say, in my states, there is no mind and no heart, just chi, electricity and lights. The key point IMO, is that state of kensho, satori, or even just Jhana can not sustained without chi, which is labeled as vital energy by Daniel. Of course, my experience could also be labeled as maya by Bill. :-) It is not important what I say or experience. It is only important what you experience. As you well know, Buddha said clearly in Diamond sutra that He said NO dharma. Best, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/14/2011 4:10 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, What is 'mind'? What is 'heart'? What is the difference between 'mind' and 'heart'? Anthony --- On *Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc774.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 3:36 AM Wow, Thank you ED. I have watched the first one. HuangDi Neijing said it very clearly for 2,000 years, Our Shen, or inner divine, requires the support of Qi or Chi. Personally, having a high tech BG, it took me 6 years to wake up to the fact that our Teaching is not about our mind. It is about our entire being. And at the center of it, is our heart. That's my witness. Now there is someone else too. Thank you again, ED. Lovely day today. :-) JM BTW, I was just informed that our version of Diamond Sutra is on youtube with English subtitle. http://www.youtube.com/joycedaolian#p/u/4/ROkmtB1fB8I Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/14/2011 10:25 AM, ED wrote: Mike, two more tapes by Empty_Grace. I experience this guy as knowing what he is talking about. JM, he has good things to say about the Heart. --ED The Three Dimensions of Release http
Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release
Wow, Thank you ED. I have watched the first one. HuangDi Neijing said it very clearly for 2,000 years, Our Shen, or inner divine, requires the support of Qi or Chi. Personally, having a high tech BG, it took me 6 years to wake up to the fact that our Teaching is not about our mind. It is about our entire being. And at the center of it, is our heart. That's my witness. Now there is someone else too. Thank you again, ED. Lovely day today. :-) JM BTW, I was just informed that our version of Diamond Sutra is on youtube with English subtitle. http://www.youtube.com/joycedaolian#p/u/4/ROkmtB1fB8I Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/14/2011 10:25 AM, ED wrote: Mike, two more tapes by Empty_Grace. I experience this guy as knowing what he is talking about. JM, he has good things to say about the Heart. --ED The Three Dimensions of Release http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejQsIFDrb4MNR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejQsIFDrb4MNR=1 Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-4Vw54Dabwfeature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-4Vw54Dabwfeature=related Part 2
Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality?
Hi Mike, Indeed, practitioners do encounter images without intentionally asking for. We also teach the same way of recognition and non-attachment. I don't know the exact equivalent for jhana in Chinese. I will post after some research. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/13/2011 6:53 AM, mike brown wrote: Hi again JMJM, Yes, these visuals are most certainly emanating thru the mind. However, it'd be wrong to classify them as visualisations in the sense of intentionaly creating an image as a focus of meditation. Rather, they are unbidden and 'appear' at certain stages of absorbation. One doesn't focus on these visuals either, but remains mindful on the breath (or whatever) until they disappear (remembering that all phenomena are impermanent) and one enters into samadhi or the higher jhanas. Mike *From:* Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Wed, 13 April, 2011 14:47:51 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? Hi Mike and Steve, Reading Bill's input, I need to also mention that we also teach that forms are from the mind and not from the heart, no matter how pretty or wonderful they may appear, even Buddha like. :-) We don't use visualization technique. Nothing to be imagined or visualized. Any kind of shape or form is from the mind and not a synchronization of the heart. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/12/2011 5:16 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: Hi Steve and Mike, My name popped up. I am not sure what's the question. Let me just ramble a little about the journey of Chan Meditation. * Yes, it does require a tour guide, because it is completely formless and a teacher can serve as a conduit of wisdom and energy. It saves a lot of detour and the student usually progresses faster next to a teacher. That's why Chan is also called the Secret Inner Witness, when it past to Tibet, I was told by Anthony, that it turned into Tantric. * Why cultivate chi? The purpose are two fold. One is to divert the thinking to focus on the chakra and chi channels and the other is to unify our physical body. Thus awareness rises from our heart, that's the center of both physical and mental. * Are these diagnostic marks? I would rather call the various stages of practice sign posts. At the beginning, we sense some heat or vibration of some of our chakras, toe, finger tips, etc. (Bill, I can write up a self-chi experiment if you wish. it takes only two minutes to try it.:-) ) Then we are able to sense/direct the chi along certain paths. Then all chakras can be connected via all the chi channels. Then our entire body feels like one chakra or one channel. At this stage, it does take several years, we have unified our body into one and we seldom get ill. * Alone the journey, our awareness(sensory abilities) are enhanced, our attitude and preferences diminishes. Recognize oneness in many things. I mean recognize the cause and effect, interdependence and relativity of everything. No longer need to hold any concept, or words, as our base. Our base of practice broadens. Because our hearts are open and we feel the sadness of the delusional beings. Sometimes we don't know who they are. It just comes to us to remind us. * I often tell my students, no matter how foreign your feelings are. Please do not be afraid. It is part of you. Anything happens in this universe is normal. Nothing is dangerous or supernatural, which are human terms. Mike, on your way back to Australia, pass by Taiwan. I can make arrangement with many English speaking teachers of ours and let you quickly experience the chi power of many of our meditation centers. Many of them are college professors. Let me know if this answers any of your questions. Let me know if there is anything else. Thank you for the opportunity to share. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/12/2011 4:42 PM, mike brown wrote: Steve, Yes, I tend to think of this more as a diagnostic marker than anything else. That's a good idea about Shingon, but the irony is that I'd probably be better off in the UK or Australia to learn about it (due to the language barrier). Ah well, 'move on Bikkhus', as the Buddha would say. Mike *From:* SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Wed, 13 April, 2011 8:23:40 *Subject:* [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum
Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality?
Hi Mike, Based on my research, I believe Jhana is what we called Chan Ding. We have beginning Ding, grand Ding, deep Ding, and exquisite Ding. The definition I found as taught by ED, Chan Ding is similar to the Fourth Jhana in Rupa Jhana and the Dimension of Neither perception nor non perception in Aurpa Jhanas. The way we teach is detect the chakra, energize the chakra, in sync with the chakra and enter the chakra, until the chakra emits light, I mean pure light without images. To enter and stay in the state of Chan Ding, we need to completely open/unblock our Central Channel, that's when our chi can flow at will from our Root Chakra at the bottom and all the way up to the Crown Chakra at the top. When our dharma eye chakra notices pure white light emitting from our heart chakra, then we have reach kensho. For your reference, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/13/2011 6:48 AM, mike brown wrote: Hi JMJM, Thanks for the reply and your kind offer to visit you in Taiwan, but I think you misread my post as I won't be travelling to Australia for some time to come. However, when I do I would love to come and see you there : ) Also, thanks or the feedback. I agree, 'signposts' seems like a better way to name the phenomena. I also like that you focus on the chakras as a way to divert your attention away from thinking. Do you have any knowledge and use of the jhanas in Chan Buddhism? Mike *From:* Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Wed, 13 April, 2011 9:16:09 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? Hi Steve and Mike, My name popped up. I am not sure what's the question. Let me just ramble a little about the journey of Chan Meditation. * Yes, it does require a tour guide, because it is completely formless and a teacher can serve as a conduit of wisdom and energy. It saves a lot of detour and the student usually progresses faster next to a teacher. That's why Chan is also called the Secret Inner Witness, when it past to Tibet, I was told by Anthony, that it turned into Tantric. * Why cultivate chi? The purpose are two fold. One is to divert the thinking to focus on the chakra and chi channels and the other is to unify our physical body. Thus awareness rises from our heart, that's the center of both physical and mental. * Are these diagnostic marks? I would rather call the various stages of practice sign posts. At the beginning, we sense some heat or vibration of some of our chakras, toe, finger tips, etc. (Bill, I can write up a self-chi experiment if you wish. it takes only two minutes to try it.:-) ) Then we are able to sense/direct the chi along certain paths. Then all chakras can be connected via all the chi channels. Then our entire body feels like one chakra or one channel. At this stage, it does take several years, we have unified our body into one and we seldom get ill. * Alone the journey, our awareness(sensory abilities) are enhanced, our attitude and preferences diminishes. Recognize oneness in many things. I mean recognize the cause and effect, interdependence and relativity of everything. No longer need to hold any concept, or words, as our base. Our base of practice broadens. Because our hearts are open and we feel the sadness of the delusional beings. Sometimes we don't know who they are. It just comes to us to remind us. * I often tell my students, no matter how foreign your feelings are. Please do not be afraid. It is part of you. Anything happens in this universe is normal. Nothing is dangerous or supernatural, which are human terms. Mike, on your way back to Australia, pass by Taiwan. I can make arrangement with many English speaking teachers of ours and let you quickly experience the chi power of many of our meditation centers. Many of them are college professors. Let me know if this answers any of your questions. Let me know if there is anything else. Thank you for the opportunity to share. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/12/2011 4:42 PM, mike brown wrote: Steve, Yes, I tend to think of this more as a diagnostic marker than anything else. That's a good idea about Shingon, but the irony is that I'd probably be better off in the UK or Australia to learn about it (due to the language barrier). Ah well, 'move on Bikkhus', as the Buddha would say. Mike *From:* SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Wed, 13 April, 2011 8:23:40 *Subject:* [Zen] Re: Does
Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality?
thank you ED. I used definition: as you taught me. Thank you. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/13/2011 8:04 AM, ED wrote: JM, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_in_Buddhism --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, JMJM wrote: I don't know the exact equivalent for jhana in Chinese. I will post after some research. JM
Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality?
Hi Steve and Mike, My name popped up. I am not sure what's the question. Let me just ramble a little about the journey of Chan Meditation. * Yes, it does require a tour guide, because it is completely formless and a teacher can serve as a conduit of wisdom and energy. It saves a lot of detour and the student usually progresses faster next to a teacher. That's why Chan is also called the Secret Inner Witness, when it past to Tibet, I was told by Anthony, that it turned into Tantric. * Why cultivate chi? The purpose are two fold. One is to divert the thinking to focus on the chakra and chi channels and the other is to unify our physical body. Thus awareness rises from our heart, that's the center of both physical and mental. * Are these diagnostic marks? I would rather call the various stages of practice sign posts. At the beginning, we sense some heat or vibration of some of our chakras, toe, finger tips, etc. (Bill, I can write up a self-chi experiment if you wish. it takes only two minutes to try it.:-) ) Then we are able to sense/direct the chi along certain paths. Then all chakras can be connected via all the chi channels. Then our entire body feels like one chakra or one channel. At this stage, it does take several years, we have unified our body into one and we seldom get ill. * Alone the journey, our awareness(sensory abilities) are enhanced, our attitude and preferences diminishes. Recognize oneness in many things. I mean recognize the cause and effect, interdependence and relativity of everything. No longer need to hold any concept, or words, as our base. Our base of practice broadens. Because our hearts are open and we feel the sadness of the delusional beings. Sometimes we don't know who they are. It just comes to us to remind us. * I often tell my students, no matter how foreign your feelings are. Please do not be afraid. It is part of you. Anything happens in this universe is normal. Nothing is dangerous or supernatural, which are human terms. Mike, on your way back to Australia, pass by Taiwan. I can make arrangement with many English speaking teachers of ours and let you quickly experience the chi power of many of our meditation centers. Many of them are college professors. Let me know if this answers any of your questions. Let me know if there is anything else. Thank you for the opportunity to share. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/12/2011 4:42 PM, mike brown wrote: Steve, Yes, I tend to think of this more as a diagnostic marker than anything else. That's a good idea about Shingon, but the irony is that I'd probably be better off in the UK or Australia to learn about it (due to the language barrier). Ah well, 'move on Bikkhus', as the Buddha would say. Mike *From:* SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Wed, 13 April, 2011 8:23:40 *Subject:* [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Steve, Unfortunately, I'm in Japan and the teacher didn't speak English. I'm just looking now at a few Vipassana sites that seem to be explaining the process quite well. After 10 years of Zen, all this energy centres stuff is quite an adventure! Kinda like being in a 'psychic fairground' as one person put it. My intuition, as well as what I've been able to discern so far, is that it's just a stage (albeit an important one) and not something to become attached to. If JMJM has some advice it would be received warmly. Mike Hi Mike. I have Tantric fiends who are really into this stuff. As you doubtless know, this is the focus of Tantra, both Buddhist and Hindu. I am not surprised that there are physical correspondances to mental states as everything is entangled. The question is whether these phenomena are to be regarded as diagnostic markers, as distractions, or as something that should be deliberately cultivated. I have read that kundalini can be quite dangerous to one's mental, emotional and physical health if the process is unsupervised by an experienced guide. In Japan, as you know, Tantric Buddhism is called Shingon. Maybe you can find some Shingon teacher who speaks enough English to help. Steve
Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality?
Hi Mike and Steve, Reading Bill's input, I need to also mention that we also teach that forms are from the mind and not from the heart, no matter how pretty or wonderful they may appear, even Buddha like. :-) We don't use visualization technique. Nothing to be imagined or visualized. Any kind of shape or form is from the mind and not a synchronization of the heart. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/12/2011 5:16 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: Hi Steve and Mike, My name popped up. I am not sure what's the question. Let me just ramble a little about the journey of Chan Meditation. * Yes, it does require a tour guide, because it is completely formless and a teacher can serve as a conduit of wisdom and energy. It saves a lot of detour and the student usually progresses faster next to a teacher. That's why Chan is also called the Secret Inner Witness, when it past to Tibet, I was told by Anthony, that it turned into Tantric. * Why cultivate chi? The purpose are two fold. One is to divert the thinking to focus on the chakra and chi channels and the other is to unify our physical body. Thus awareness rises from our heart, that's the center of both physical and mental. * Are these diagnostic marks? I would rather call the various stages of practice sign posts. At the beginning, we sense some heat or vibration of some of our chakras, toe, finger tips, etc. (Bill, I can write up a self-chi experiment if you wish. it takes only two minutes to try it.:-) ) Then we are able to sense/direct the chi along certain paths. Then all chakras can be connected via all the chi channels. Then our entire body feels like one chakra or one channel. At this stage, it does take several years, we have unified our body into one and we seldom get ill. * Alone the journey, our awareness(sensory abilities) are enhanced, our attitude and preferences diminishes. Recognize oneness in many things. I mean recognize the cause and effect, interdependence and relativity of everything. No longer need to hold any concept, or words, as our base. Our base of practice broadens. Because our hearts are open and we feel the sadness of the delusional beings. Sometimes we don't know who they are. It just comes to us to remind us. * I often tell my students, no matter how foreign your feelings are. Please do not be afraid. It is part of you. Anything happens in this universe is normal. Nothing is dangerous or supernatural, which are human terms. Mike, on your way back to Australia, pass by Taiwan. I can make arrangement with many English speaking teachers of ours and let you quickly experience the chi power of many of our meditation centers. Many of them are college professors. Let me know if this answers any of your questions. Let me know if there is anything else. Thank you for the opportunity to share. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/12/2011 4:42 PM, mike brown wrote: Steve, Yes, I tend to think of this more as a diagnostic marker than anything else. That's a good idea about Shingon, but the irony is that I'd probably be better off in the UK or Australia to learn about it (due to the language barrier). Ah well, 'move on Bikkhus', as the Buddha would say. Mike *From:* SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Wed, 13 April, 2011 8:23:40 *Subject:* [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Steve, Unfortunately, I'm in Japan and the teacher didn't speak English. I'm just looking now at a few Vipassana sites that seem to be explaining the process quite well. After 10 years of Zen, all this energy centres stuff is quite an adventure! Kinda like being in a 'psychic fairground' as one person put it. My intuition, as well as what I've been able to discern so far, is that it's just a stage (albeit an important one) and not something to become attached to. If JMJM has some advice it would be received warmly. Mike Hi Mike. I have Tantric fiends who are really into this stuff. As you doubtless know, this is the focus of Tantra, both Buddhist and Hindu. I am not surprised that there are physical correspondances to mental states as everything is entangled. The question is whether these phenomena are to be regarded as diagnostic markers, as distractions, or as something that should be deliberately cultivated. I have read that kundalini can be quite dangerous to one's mental, emotional and physical health if the process is unsupervised
Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality?
Hi Bill, Very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to write it. I enjoyed reading it. From you input, it seems to indicate that in the western culture, the word spirit and spiritual are not part of everyday life. These two words are in the supernatural domain and beyond everyday conversation. Is this true? Or is it just in Zen_Forum? In the Chinese culture, spirit or spiritual states are very common in everyday life. Usually if I say that I am happy or sad, it also means that my spirit is high or low. Nothing supernatural about it. I would say to the majority Chinese, mental state is spiritual state. I don't know whether Anothony agrees with this or not. It could be just me. Besides, my Chinese is not very good either. Please respond. I do understand that generalization are risky. But this could be important to know. Thank you, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/6/2011 7:00 PM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, It's about 8A here. I've been up since 6A and have had my moring cup of tea - my personal favorite caffeine delivery device. I'll embedd my comments in your original post below: JMJM: I have heard many people say, I am spiritual but not religious. What does am spiritual mean? To answer this question we need to know what 'spiritual' and 'religious' means, and especially what the differences are. We also have to assume that the people you quoted are using the words correctly and all the same. That's probably not true, but without interrogating each of them we'll just have to assume they are. *** All definitions are from Merriam-Webster Online *** SPIRITUAL The root of 'spiritual' is 'spirit' , which is defined as: *1:* an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms 2*:* a supernatural being or essence So now we have to find out what 'supernatural' means: Again, according to Merriam-Webster it means: *1:* of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; /especially/ *:* of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil 2:/a/ *:* departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature /b/ *:* attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit) RELIGIOUS The root of 'religious' is 'religion', which is defined as: /b (1)/ *:* the service and worship of God or the supernatural Since 'supernatural' is used in both we should find out what 'natural' means: /a/ *:* the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing *: *essence So...from all of the above I'd say both 'spiritual' and 'religious' have to do with things that are 'supernatural' - above or beyond the essence of things. And the difference is 'spiritual' only implies belief in the supernatural, where 'religious' implies service or worship or the supernatural. In your opinion, does Zen contain spirituality? Zen Buddhism I think does include 'spitituality' from the layers of Buddhism in which it is encased. In my opinion zen (lower case 'z' which for me implies zen practice devoid of Buddhism or any other religion) is only about 'essence' (in fact the term 'Buddha NATURE' is often used - which just means 'pure essence' or 'raw awareness') and does not recognize anything above or beyond that, such as anything 'supernatural'. The zen I pracitce does not depend or refer to anything 'supernatural'. Therefore in my opinion zen is not spiritual. If yes, then what is spirituality? What is a spirit? Is there such a thing? I've given the definitionof spirituality and spirit above. In my opinion these are illusory. To put it into the perpective of Chan (from what you've taught me about Chan) I think 1) the concept of 'chi' would be an excellent example of 'spirit' ; 2) the belief in 'chi' would be an excercise in spiritualty; and 3) the service or worship of 'chi' would be a religious act. From what you've said about Chan I think it incorporates 1 and 2, but not 3 above. If not, then what is Zen for? Live a better life? If so, does it mean a happier life? If so, then is happiness a spiritual state? Is our mental state a spiritual state? Is there a difference? The answer to 'what is Zen [Buddhism] for?' is up to each individual. I'm sure for some it's practiced for peace-of-mind or health or ??? Maybe some Zen Buddhists on this site will add their opinions on what they think 'Zen is for'. The zen I practice is not 'for' anything, anymore than a tree is 'for' something - or a river or the moon. It isn't 'for' anything (although I'm sure 'men of science' could come up with lots of roles that trees and rivers and the moon play in our enviornment, and therefore could extrapolate of what they're 'for'. The zen I practice just 'is', in fact it is my essence - or more correctly stated 'just essence' , Just THIS!
Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality?
Hi ED, It is true that spirituality can not be communicated accurately. Thank you. That's why it is time to address it, because Chan practice in the truest sense is a spiritual practice. It will take some effort to explain it, because it seems to me that Zen has reduced all verbage to its bare minimum. For instance, Zen is One. but Chan is One and this One is ALL. The second half was missing in Zen. Without it, we are then attached to absolute emptiness. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/7/2011 8:09 AM, ED wrote: Talking about spirituality is of no value, because the word has a private meaning for each human, which meaning cannot be communicated accurately to anyone else. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: JMJM, My comments are embedded below: JMJM: From you input, it seems to indicate that in the western culture, the word spirit and spiritual are not part of everyday life. These two words are in the supernatural domain and beyond everyday conversation. Is this true? Or is it just in Zen_Forum? [Bill!] No, that is not true. Some, maybe most, consider spirits and sprituality as part of everyday life. EVERYONE that considers themselves as belonging to a religion (Christianity, Judism, Islam, Hindi, etc...) believes in spirits. These terms and topics are frequently used in everyday conversation. Of course so are UFO's and Obama's birth in Kenya. Being part of everyday conversation doesn't validate them. In the Chinese culture, spirit or spiritual states are very common in everyday life. Usually if I say that I am happy or sad, it also means that my spirit is high or low. Nothing supernatural about it. I would say to the majority Chinese, mental state is spiritual state. I don't know whether Anothony agrees with this or not. It could be just me. Besides, my Chinese is not very good either. Please respond. I do understand that generalization are risky. But this could be important to know. Thank you, JM [Bill!] We also have an alternate meaning of 'spirit' that is used like that. When you sad you could say you're in 'low spirits'; happy is 'high spirits'. 'Spirits' also refer to alcoholic drinks. The reason I zeroed in on the supernatual meaning of 'spirits' is because I think the people who told you they were 'spiritual but not religious' were using it in the supernatual way - not the casual 'mental state or general feeling' way. ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality?
Hi Anthony, Thank you. Bill has two categories in his communication. One is Just This and the other is Illusory. And that's dualistic. :-) I would interpret his Just This category to be Chi, and the illusory category to be all the manifestation of the Chi. Then it is one and not two. And this one can explain everything in the universe. Then this practice is whole and complete. Additionally, labels such as kensho, satori, enlightenment are nothing but description of the various physiological states of ourselves. If we dig deeper, physiological is a scientific word. Layman's word is spiritual. By spiritual, I mean how we feel. Compassion and wisdom in our school are in the spiritual domain. (I will get to that later in a more complete way) Nonetheless, even though we all agree words are useless in our journey, each of our spiritual states are distinct. Maintaining or reaching these states requires detailed explanation, because they are so abstract. How are we be able to communicate without them. Often I admire Bill for his ruthless way trying to help everyone staying on course. For the sake of beginners, yes, absolutely. In our school, we don't talk about spirituality until at least sitting for five to six years. Then the practitioner may have some of the chakras and chi channels open and feeling his spiritual states. Otherwise spirituality is just an empty word. As empty, or shall I say as illusory, as kensho, satori and enlightenment. Need to stop here. Talk to you later. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/7/2011 12:40 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Be careful about Bill's generalization. It may wipe out all your 'spirits'. Anthony --- On *Thu, 7/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 7 April, 2011, 2:33 PM Hi Bill, Very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to write it. I enjoyed reading it. From you input, it seems to indicate that in the western culture, the word spirit and spiritual are not part of everyday life. These two words are in the supernatural domain and beyond everyday conversation. Is this true? Or is it just in Zen_Forum? In the Chinese culture, spirit or spiritual states are very common in everyday life. Usually if I say that I am happy or sad, it also means that my spirit is high or low. Nothing supernatural about it. I would say to the majority Chinese, mental state is spiritual state. I don't know whether Anothony agrees with this or not. It could be just me. Besides, my Chinese is not very good either. Please respond. I do understand that generalization are risky. But this could be important to know. Thank you, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 4/6/2011 7:00 PM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, It's about 8A here. I've been up since 6A and have had my moring cup of tea - my personal favorite caffeine delivery device. I'll embedd my comments in your original post below: JMJM: I have heard many people say, I am spiritual but not religious. What does am spiritual mean? To answer this question we need to know what 'spiritual' and 'religious' means, and especially what the differences are. We also have to assume that the people you quoted are using the words correctly and all the same. That's probably not true, but without interrogating each of them we'll just have to assume they are. *** All definitions are from Merriam-Webster Online *** SPIRITUAL The root of 'spiritual' is 'spirit' , which is defined as: *1:* an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms 2*:* a supernatural being or essence So now we have to find out what 'supernatural' means: Again, according to Merriam-Webster it means: *1:* of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; /especially/ *:* of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil 2:/a/ *:* departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature /b/ *:* attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit) RELIGIOUS The root of 'religious' is 'religion', which is defined as: /b (1)/ *:* the service and worship of God or the supernatural Since 'supernatural' is used in both we should find out what 'natural' means: /a/ *:* the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing *: *essence So...from all of the above I'd say both 'spiritual
