[Zen] Re: TNH
Hi Chris; Excellent book the one you mention The Heart of the Buddha Teachings. Some different traditions have adopted it due to its clarity and easy reading. After that book comes the one with the tittle Understanding our Mind which is also the one I've been copying the fifty verses. Don't worry too much if you find a little bit difficult to understand the verses. Each of this verses are explained in the book mentioned. I have been copying in that way to the website because I can't copy the whole book. On the other hand, I was having fun to get indirectly into the debate about consciousness by inserting the verses. But they were so engaged to make their points accross to each others that couldn't even see that they might have found some interesting answers to their queries by just stopping, reading in the awareness of their in and out breathing. I'm not familiar with any other Vietnameses Masters in different tradition from TNH. However, Within TNH tradition I have had the chance to meet and talk with some of them. I have only ten verses left to copy and send. I'll do that soon but not right now. Thanks for writing and enjoy your day Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mayka, I have been skipping over your posts about the fifty verses. I want to read them all together when I can devote my full attention to them. I have began re-reading TNH's The Heart of the Buddha's Teachings. His work is always so inspiratinal to me. He has an amazing way of explaining such things with a common sense approach in layman's terms. Are you familiar with any other Vietnamese masters still alive today? Sincerely, Chris Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Dear Bill; I have always enjoyed and keep enjoying all your postings regardless of being intelectual, agree or disagree. You are of great strenght to this group. You have lots of experience and I admire your communicative skills and your elocuence. Whatever you say, with you one always learns a lot. If I pointed out intelectualization and mindfulness wasn't any personal to anyone. Sorry if that was interpretated in that way. I'm a person with very powerful and strong emotions, plus ego, arrogance and so on. And because of that I have no more choice that to practice mindfullness in order to have them under control. My say was a general observation about the mind in the mind. Nothing personal at all. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Edgar, Mark thinks it's off-topic. Mike thinks it's off-topic. Mayka thinks it's off-topic. I think it's off-topic, but I enjoyed it. I'd be happy to continue the discussion offline via email. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 7:17 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Bill, I don't think our causality discussion is OT at all. The true nature of things is exactly what Zen is about. Until we understand that there is no Zen. Zen is not about avoiding reality by sitting forever in zazen. Zen is about living day to day in the real world of things seen in their true nature, of illusion seen as illusion, which is reality. EDgar On Oct 15, 2008, at 6:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, Mike and Mayka, I'd like to acknowledge my agreement with you about the great chasm that necessarily exists between zen and intellectualization. I'd also like to assure all of you that the current discussion thread on Causality, with is mainly between Edgar and me, has nothing at all to do with zen or Zen Buddhism as far as I'm concerned. It is exactly as you've characterized it - head-candy. I call it verbal Sudoku. The Zen Forum is not an appropriate place for us to have this discussion, and at least on my part I'm willing to shut it down. The thread was a divergence from a legitimate discussion on a topic that is appropriate to zen and Buddhism, the concept of karma. Causality is a kind of value-free version of karma. Thanks for reminding me of the purpose of the forum and the boundaries that should be respected. ...Bill! P.S. For some reason I'm not getting any of Mayka's or Mike's postings. I get Zen Forum postings sent directly to me via email. I only see the postings when someone, like Mark, responds and I see the original posting embedded in his post. I've asked Al to look into this before, but there has been no explanation. Has anyone else noticed this? Or can anyone else offer any possible explanations or suggestions? From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making
[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Hi Mike- --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your email. As always you write very eloquently. I haven't read that in Alan Watts, but I think he's absolutely correct. How many non-Buddhist Zen practitioners do you know who look really good on paper, but if they get a toothache or are criticised their whole 'house of cards' comes tumbling down? I know quite a few. Agreed:-) But to be fair, a rip-roaring toothache is enough to put anyone off their game (seriously). Also I know lots of people who's house of cards tumbles down under criticism, not just non-buddhist zen practitioners. Criticism activates the insecurities and puts the ego on red alert. I once knew a psychologist who talked about belief structures. He was fond of saying The acronym for belief structure is B.S., and we all know what B.S. stands for! I think he had a good point. Ah yes, little ego, problem child. But I always try to remember the ego has a lot in common with James Brown- the ego is the hardest working part of the psyche. I try to remember that egos really do need love and compassion too - even my own. Yes, the Eight Precepts are the 'standard' ones in Buddhism. I'm not sure if they're used so much to keep people grounded after realisation (zazen should be taking care of that), but rather that it's difficult to sit in meditation if you've just broken a precept (eg, stolen or killed something). Similarly with the others (right thinking, right livelihood etc) - it's difficult to mediatate or be mindful if you've just sold drugs to a teenager or been perving on your friend's husband/wife or gossiping about them etc. Is it difficult because of guilt? Or some other preoccupation with the transgression? Yes, these questions are partly rhetorical, but they are partly serious as well. It seems like a no-brainer to me that it would be difficult to meditate or be mindful after killing something or selling drugs to a teenager (and I'm not being a smart-alic), it seems to me it would be hard to concentrate on much of anything. That is, at least, for some people. That is the interesting thing about morals (precepts)- the people who need them the most don't see any value in them or follow them. Again, I'm not trying to be a smart-alic. I know many people (myself included) who don't follow any precepts or other moral code that would never sell drugs to a teenager or sleep with a friend's husband or wife. On the other hand I can also see how precepts could be an aid to mindfulness. To sit zazen as a regular practice and follow the precepts (I believe) helps to transform the self andkeep it that way. Enlightenment is a moment to moment 'experience' and therefore it is easy to backslide back into samsara (for want of a better word). I think many people have had a glimpse of their true nature, but then make the mistake of thinking that they now 'have it' permanantely. Ability to write academic treatises about consciuosness, chi, time, causality doesn't replace the need to periodically sit zazen/shikentaza and just BE. This is where zen is watered, nurtured and flowers. But just try and do this if you don't at least try to follow the precepts. I hope this made sense to you. If what you are saying is that enlightenment is a process, I wholeheartedly agree. The only difference is that I think there are more ways to do the process than just zazen and precepts. I could very well be wrong. I should say now, I have a personal problem with religion. It's just something that's not right for me. You seem quite sane and sincere and I very much enjoy talking with you and hearing your point of view. Margie (roloro1557) -- FROM: Over the hills and far away. . . Don't wobble. Yunmen OldWomansZenChronicles.blogspot.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Hi All- Just to let you know, I have had the same problem periodically. Margie (roloro1557) ---Bill wrote: P.S. For some reason I'm not getting any of Mayka's or Mike's postings. I get Zen Forum postings sent directly to me via email. I only see the postings when someone, like Mark, responds and I see the original posting embedded in his post. I've asked Al to look into this before, but there has been no explanation. Has anyone else noticed this? Or can anyone else offer any possible explanations or suggestions? -- FROM: Over the hills and far away. . . Forgoing self, the universe grows I. OldWomansZenChronicles.blogspot.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Hi Margie, Thanks for your email. As always you write very eloquently. I haven't read that in Alan Watts, but I think he's absolutely correct. How many non-Buddhist Zen practitioners do you know who look really good on paper, but if they get a toothache or are criticised their whole 'house of cards' comes tumbling down? I know quite a few. Yes, the Eight Precepts are the 'standard' ones in Buddhism. I'm not sure if they're used so much to keep people grounded after realisation (zazen should be taking care of that), but rather that it's difficult to sit in meditation if you've just broken a precept (eg, stolen or killed something). Similarly with the others (right thinking, right livelihood etc) - it's difficult to mediatate or be mindful if you've just sold drugs to a teenager or been perving on your friend's husband/wife or gossiping about them etc etc. To sit zazen as a regular practice and follow the precepts (I believe) helps to transform the self andkeep it that way. Enlightenment is a moment to moment 'experience' and therefore it is easy to backslide back into samsara (for want of a better word). I think many people have had a glimpse of their true nature, but then make the mistake of thinking that they now 'have it' permanantely. Ability to write academic treatises about consciuosness, chi, time, causality doesn't replace the need to periodically sit zazen/shikentaza and just BE. This is where zen is watered, nurtured and flowers. But just try and do this if you don't at least try to follow the precepts. I hope this made sense to you. Mike. - Original Message From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 18:53:57 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike, My understanding is that zen is not a philosophy (intellect) nor a religion (psychology) . It's something else, in a category by itself. As someone not unfamiliar with both philosophy and religion, I agree. I agree with you about intellectual head candy, and I think a little goes a long way. (I liked the poetry!) Alan Watts (in one of his books, sorry I don't remember which) talks about 'zen without buddhism'. Carl Jung talked about how zen and other asian disciplines, philosophies, etc, could be dangerous for westerners. Watts talked about the phenomena of the private buddha- someone who has a zen experience that blows their mind, and it stays blown, they don't or can't come back to 'regular' reality. To me what they are talking about is the realization that there's no real meaning; the meanings we assign to everything is just one huge house of cards that tumbles down when the wind (a zen experience) blows. Another way to say it is the realization that the meanings we assign to things are completely arbitrary, and most are assigned by culture, not ourselves. As Cleary said, Zen applies directly to the relationship between mind and culture itself, whatever that culture may be. I don't know if I'm being clear. . . This is where buddhism with its' precepts comes in?? I don't know exactly what precepts you mean - I have heard there are only 3 and also that there are over 500. But I assume you are talking about things like 'no killing', 'no stealing', etc. I would assume the function is to help keep people grounded after realization? ? One other thing- I really have noticed that people of above average intelligence are attracted to zen without buddhism, so maybe the intellectual head candy goes with the territory?? :-) I'm really looking forward to your reply. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. - - FROM: Over the hills and far away. . . Wisdom and compassion are inseparable. OldWomansZenChronic les.blogspot. com
RE: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Mark, Mike and Mayka, I'd like to acknowledge my agreement with you about the great chasm that necessarily exists between zen and intellectualization. I'd also like to assure all of you that the current discussion thread on Causality, with is mainly between Edgar and me, has nothing at all to do with zen or Zen Buddhism as far as I'm concerned. It is exactly as you've characterized it - head-candy. I call it verbal Sudoku. The Zen Forum is not an appropriate place for us to have this discussion, and at least on my part I'm willing to shut it down. The thread was a divergence from a legitimate discussion on a topic that is appropriate to zen and Buddhism, the concept of karma. Causality is a kind of value-free version of karma. Thanks for reminding me of the purpose of the forum and the boundaries that should be respected. ...Bill! P.S. For some reason I'm not getting any of Mayka's or Mike's postings. I get Zen Forum postings sent directly to me via email. I only see the postings when someone, like Mark, responds and I see the original posting embedded in his post. I've asked Al to look into this before, but there has been no explanation. Has anyone else noticed this? Or can anyone else offer any possible explanations or suggestions? From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Part 4, Sense Consciousness Twenty-Eight Based on mind consciousness. The five sense consciousness separately or together with mind consciousness, manifest like waves on water. Twenty-Nine The field of perception is things in themselves. Their mode of perception is direct. Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. They operate on the sense organs and the sensation center of the brain. Thirty They arise with the universal, particular and wholesome, the basic and secondary unwholesome, and the indeterminate mental formations. __ NOD32 3522 (20081014) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any
Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Hi Bill!, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish in a bucket full of holes.. Mike. - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 19:23:45 Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike and Mark, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish without a bicycle...Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] et.com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Part 4, Sense Consciousness Twenty-Eight Based on mind consciousness. The five sense consciousness separately or together with mind consciousness, manifest like waves on water. Twenty-Nine The field of perception is things in themselves. Their mode of perception is direct. Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. They operate on the sense organs and the sensation center of the brain. Thirty They arise with the universal, particular and wholesome, the basic and secondary unwholesome, and the indeterminate mental formations. __ NOD32 3522 (20081014) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com
Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Bill, I don't think our causality discussion is OT at all. The true nature of things is exactly what Zen is about. Until we understand that there is no Zen. Zen is not about avoiding reality by sitting forever in zazen. Zen is about living day to day in the real world of things seen in their true nature, of illusion seen as illusion, which is reality. EDgar On Oct 15, 2008, at 6:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, Mike and Mayka, I'd like to acknowledge my agreement with you about the great chasm that necessarily exists between zen and intellectualization. I'd also like to assure all of you that the current discussion thread on Causality, with is mainly between Edgar and me, has nothing at all to do with zen or Zen Buddhism as far as I'm concerned. It is exactly as you've characterized it - head-candy. I call it verbal Sudoku. The Zen Forum is not an appropriate place for us to have this discussion, and at least on my part I'm willing to shut it down. The thread was a divergence from a legitimate discussion on a topic that is appropriate to zen and Buddhism, the concept of karma. Causality is a kind of value-free version of karma. Thanks for reminding me of the purpose of the forum and the boundaries that should be respected. ...Bill! P.S. For some reason I'm not getting any of Mayka's or Mike's postings. I get Zen Forum postings sent directly to me via email. I only see the postings when someone, like Mark, responds and I see the original posting embedded in his post. I've asked Al to look into this before, but there has been no explanation. Has anyone else noticed this? Or can anyone else offer any possible explanations or suggestions? From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Part 4, Sense Consciousness Twenty-Eight Based on mind consciousness. The five sense consciousness separately or together with mind consciousness, manifest like waves on water. Twenty-Nine The field of perception is things in themselves. Their mode of perception is direct. Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral
Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Haha! I wonder how many of us we would meet in a bar this evening? I'll put my hand up! Mike. - Original Message From: Mark Perew [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 17:52:12 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] et.com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Part 4, Sense Consciousness Twenty-Eight Based on mind consciousness. The five sense consciousness separately or together with mind consciousness, manifest like waves on water. Twenty-Nine The field of perception is things in themselves. Their mode of perception is direct. Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. They operate on the sense organs and the sensation center of the brain. Thirty They arise with the universal, particular and wholesome, the basic and secondary unwholesome, and the indeterminate mental formations.
[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Hi Mike, My understanding is that zen is not a philosophy (intellect) nor a religion (psychology). It's something else, in a category by itself. As someone not unfamiliar with both philosophy and religion, I agree. I agree with you about intellectual head candy, and I think a little goes a long way. (I liked the poetry!) Alan Watts (in one of his books, sorry I don't remember which) talks about 'zen without buddhism'. Carl Jung talked about how zen and other asian disciplines, philosophies, etc, could be dangerous for westerners. Watts talked about the phenomena of the private buddha- someone who has a zen experience that blows their mind, and it stays blown, they don't or can't come back to 'regular' reality. To me what they are talking about is the realization that there's no real meaning; the meanings we assign to everything is just one huge house of cards that tumbles down when the wind (a zen experience) blows. Another way to say it is the realization that the meanings we assign to things are completely arbitrary, and most are assigned by culture, not ourselves. As Cleary said, Zen applies directly to the relationship between mind and culture itself, whatever that culture may be. I don't know if I'm being clear. . . This is where buddhism with its' precepts comes in?? I don't know exactly what precepts you mean - I have heard there are only 3 and also that there are over 500. But I assume you are talking about things like 'no killing', 'no stealing', etc. I would assume the function is to help keep people grounded after realization?? One other thing- I really have noticed that people of above average intelligence are attracted to zen without buddhism, so maybe the intellectual head candy goes with the territory?? :-) I'm really looking forward to your reply. Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. -- FROM: Over the hills and far away. . . Wisdom and compassion are inseparable. OldWomansZenChronicles.blogspot.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
How will the fish get to market? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike and Mark, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish without a bicycle...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Part 4, Sense Consciousness Twenty-Eight Based on mind consciousness. The five sense consciousness separately or together with mind consciousness, manifest like waves on water. Twenty-Nine The field of perception is things in themselves. Their mode of perception is direct. Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. They operate on the sense organs and the sensation center of the brain. Thirty They arise with the universal, particular and wholesome, the basic and secondary unwholesome, and the indeterminate mental formations. __ NOD32 3522 (20081014) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Hi Bill!, To be perfectly honest with you, I don't see the topic of causality to be off topic at all - just annoying because it's going to go around and around (and around) in circles ad infinitum. I think both you and Edgar are correct in what you say about the topic. The only difference is that your view (mine too) is practical and relevant to living a zen life and Edgar's is not. Mike - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 19:50:26 Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mark, Mike and Mayka, I'd like to acknowledge my agreement with you about the great chasm that necessarily exists between zen and intellectualization . I'd also like to assure all of you that the current discussion thread on Causality, with is mainly between Edgar and me, has nothing at all to do with zen or Zen Buddhism as far as I'm concerned. It is exactly as you've characterized it - head-candy. I call it verbal Sudoku. The Zen Forum is not an appropriate place for us to have this discussion, and at least on my part I'm willing to shut it down. The thread was a divergence from a legitimate discussion on a topic that is appropriate to zen and Buddhism, the concept of karma. Causality is a kind of value-free version of karma. Thanks for reminding me of the purpose of the forum and the boundaries that should be respected. ...Bill! P.S. For some reason I'm not getting any of Mayka's or Mike's postings. I get Zen Forum postings sent directly to me via email. I only see the postings when someone, like Mark, responds and I see the original posting embedded in his post. I've asked Al to look into this before, but there has been no explanation. Has anyone else noticed this? Or can anyone else offer any possible explanations or suggestions? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] et.com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Part 4, Sense Consciousness Twenty-Eight Based on mind consciousness. The five sense consciousness
Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Hi Chris, Fish only have a 3 second memory so he probably wouldn't remember why he was going to the market anyway. Most probably does his shopping via the internet. Mike - Original Message From: cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 3:51:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness How will the fish get to market? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Mike and Mark, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish without a bicycle...Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Part 4, Sense Consciousness Twenty-Eight Based on mind consciousness. The five sense consciousness separately or together with mind consciousness, manifest like waves on water. Twenty-Nine The field of perception is things in themselves. Their mode of perception is direct. Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. They operate on the sense organs and the sensation center of the brain. Thirty They arise with the universal, particular and wholesome, the basic and secondary unwholesome, and the indeterminate mental formations. __ NOD32 3522 (20081014) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com
Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Mike, Nonsense! Are you a fish? Then why do my koi come over to me when I approach to feed them 24 hours later, or for that matter after an entire winter of no food. Don't underestimate the mind of a fish. Fish are sentient and have Buddha nature as do all beings, except apparently some of the humans on this group! :-) Edgar On Oct 15, 2008, at 7:24 PM, mike brown wrote: Hi Chris, Fish only have a 3 second memory so he probably wouldn't remember why he was going to the market anyway. Most probably does his shopping via the internet. Mike - Original Message From: cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 3:51:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness How will the fish get to market? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Mike and Mark, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish without a bicycle...Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Part 4, Sense Consciousness Twenty-Eight Based on mind consciousness. The five sense consciousness separately or together with mind consciousness, manifest like waves on water. Twenty-Nine The field of perception is things in themselves. Their mode of perception is direct. Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. They operate on the sense organs and the sensation center of the brain. Thirty They arise with the universal, particular and wholesome, the basic and secondary unwholesome, and the indeterminate mental formations. __ NOD32 3522 (20081014) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com
Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Hi Edgar, They've probably come to check out the 'new guy' they think they've never seen before.. - Original Message From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 9:24:58 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike, Nonsense! Are you a fish? Then why do my koi come over to me when I approach to feed them 24 hours later, or for that matter after an entire winter of no food. Don't underestimate the mind of a fish. Fish are sentient and have Buddha nature as do all beings, except apparently some of the humans on this group! :-) Edgar On Oct 15, 2008, at 7:24 PM, mike brown wrote: Hi Chris, Fish only have a 3 second memory so he probably wouldn't remember why he was going to the market anyway. Most probably does his shopping via the internet. Mike - Original Message From: cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] net To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 3:51:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness How will the fish get to market? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Mike and Mark, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish without a bicycle...Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Part 4, Sense Consciousness Twenty-Eight Based on mind consciousness. The five sense consciousness separately or together with mind consciousness, manifest like waves on water. Twenty-Nine The field of perception is things in themselves. Their mode of perception is direct. Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. They operate on the sense organs and the sensation center of the brain. Thirty They arise with the universal, particular and wholesome, the basic and secondary unwholesome, and the indeterminate mental formations. __ NOD32
Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
OK MIke, you've convinced me. You are a fish! You have fish nature and have achieved koi satori! :-) Edgar On Oct 15, 2008, at 8:41 PM, mike brown wrote: Hi Edgar, They've probably come to check out the 'new guy' they think they've never seen before.. - Original Message From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 9:24:58 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike, Nonsense! Are you a fish? Then why do my koi come over to me when I approach to feed them 24 hours later, or for that matter after an entire winter of no food. Don't underestimate the mind of a fish. Fish are sentient and have Buddha nature as do all beings, except apparently some of the humans on this group! :-) Edgar On Oct 15, 2008, at 7:24 PM, mike brown wrote: Hi Chris, Fish only have a 3 second memory so he probably wouldn't remember why he was going to the market anyway. Most probably does his shopping via the internet. Mike - Original Message From: cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] net To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 3:51:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness How will the fish get to market? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Mike and Mark, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish without a bicycle...Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, My knowledge and insight about consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an intellectual exercise ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayka, Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Part 4, Sense Consciousness Twenty-Eight Based on mind consciousness. The five sense consciousness separately or together with mind consciousness, manifest like waves on water. Twenty-Nine The field of perception is things in themselves. Their mode of perception is direct. Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. They operate on the sense organs and the sensation center of the brain. Thirty They arise with the universal, particular and wholesome, the basic
RE: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
You can take the fish to the market. It's all up to you...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of cid830 Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 1:51 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness How will the fish get to market? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike and Mark, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish without a bicycle...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Hi Bill!, How long does it take the fish to go nowhere? Mike - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 13:53:58 Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness You can take the fish to the market. It's all up to you...Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of cid830 Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 1:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness How will the fish get to market? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Mike and Mark, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish without a bicycle...Bill!
[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness
Ha! ROFLOL ROFLOL ROFLOL! Aaaag, I did it again! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Edgar, They've probably come to check out the 'new guy' they think they've never seen before.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
