[ZION] Jerusalem Temple (A Jewish Perspective

[Clifford M Dubery]

Here is an example of how the apocalyptic Jews feel about the Temple and,  
 my opinion of course, they are very dangerous for peace and stability in  
 Jerusalem.  They know all about the Temple and rehearse on a regular basis the 
ordinances of the Temple, all of which can be found in the Torah.  So whether they 
will or not is still moot, it is still a very touchy subject, one the Mormons don't 
figure at this time.  The definition of a righteous Jew, is simply one who keeps the 
commandments, and in place of our Temple Recommend interviews, a ritual bathing is 
undertaken.  The Aaronic Priesthood Temple is nothing like our Temples.
Clifford M Dubery

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/s5760.htm#HEADER4Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN 
Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

Re: [ZION] Oh, what a lovely ally

[Marc A. Schindler]

And I'll bet Putin's awfully glad he wrested a grudging okay out of George Bush to 
consider the Chechens terrorists after what happened in the Moscow theatre house the 
past few days (5 Canadians were amongst the hostages). It looks like al-Qaeda's been 
scattered, but like the metal bits in the bad guy's cyborg body in one of the 
Terminator movies, each bit is as dangerous as the whole, and one of the bits seems to 
be in Chechnya. Latest news is that most of the "Chechens" are actually so-called
"Afghan Arabs," a term for people from all over the Arab world attracted to al-Qaeda's 
various causes. The largest source of Afghan Arabs, iirc, is Saudi Arabia, Pakistan 
and Algeria. Maybe Egypt's up there, too, I can't remember.  According to a book I'm 
reading now, the real Afghans who fought against the Soviets considered the "Afghan 
arabs" as little more than pains in the butt who kept getting in the way and would 
rather preach religion than lift a rifle and jump up out of a trench when
bullets were flying. They're very much resented by Pushtun Afghans (let alone Uzbek 
and Tajik Afghans).

Clifford M Dubery wrote:

> Yes, but rational thought in US Foreign Policy is not necessary when fighting the 
>"war on terror".  The origins of the Taliban in Pakistan and Al Qaeda in Saudi 
>Arabia, the fundamentalist nature of the latter and the move towards fundamentalism 
>in the North of the other point to a threat from other than Iraq.
>
> As much as Iraq needs a regime change, it is not a source of terrorism, aka al 
>Qaeda.  It is a threat to Israel and the stability of Middle-East Oil flow.  The 
>sooner they (Washington) admits it and drops the rhetoric the more rational they will 
>sound.
>
> Just think, and invasion of Iraq will result in the moderate political elements in 
>the Arab world becoming anti-American.  Then the US will have multiple fronts to 
>fight in its war on terror, even if they succeed in replacing the Caliph of Bagdad 
>with General Tommy Franks.
>
> Our Generals (in Australia) have decided they can only fight on two fronts, so East 
>Timor and Afghanistan or East Timor and Iraq, not all three.  At least this mess has 
>meant an increase in our Defence Budget, now we are fighting in the halls of Russel 
>Hill whether we should have more soldiers or smarter weapons or both some how.  They 
>seemed to have made a decision to by (jointly develop and manufacture) the Lockheed 
>Martin JSF fighter-whatsit.  What's a few billion dollars here and there.
>
> Clifford M Dubery
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Marc A. Schindler
> Sent: Monday, 28 October 2002 10:51
> To: zion-l
> Subject: [ZION] Oh, what a lovely ally
>
> It's awfully hard not to say "I told you so"
>
> But Pakistan is the real concern, not Iraq, as the election results
> show. See article below, from the 19/10/02 issue of The Economist:
>
> Pakistan's election
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst 
thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated…To 
think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any 
idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to 
understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.” 
– Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in “The
Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of 
any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

Re: [ZION] Oh, what a lovely ally

[Clifford M Dubery]

Yes, but rational thought in US Foreign Policy is not necessary when fighting the "war 
on terror".  The origins of the Taliban in Pakistan and Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia, the 
fundamentalist nature of the latter and the move towards fundamentalism in the North 
of the other point to a threat from other than Iraq.

As much as Iraq needs a regime change, it is not a source of terrorism, aka al Qaeda.  
It is a threat to Israel and the stability of Middle-East Oil flow.  The sooner they 
(Washington) admits it and drops the rhetoric the more rational they will sound.

Just think, and invasion of Iraq will result in the moderate political elements in the 
Arab world becoming anti-American.  Then the US will have multiple fronts to fight in 
its war on terror, even if they succeed in replacing the Caliph of Bagdad with General 
Tommy Franks.

Our Generals (in Australia) have decided they can only fight on two fronts, so East 
Timor and Afghanistan or East Timor and Iraq, not all three.  At least this mess has 
meant an increase in our Defence Budget, now we are fighting in the halls of Russel 
Hill whether we should have more soldiers or smarter weapons or both some how.  They 
seemed to have made a decision to by (jointly develop and manufacture) the Lockheed 
Martin JSF fighter-whatsit.  What's a few billion dollars here and there.

Clifford M Dubery

- Original Message -
From: Marc A. Schindler
Sent: Monday, 28 October 2002 10:51
To: zion-l
Subject: [ZION] Oh, what a lovely ally

It's awfully hard not to say "I told you so"

But Pakistan is the real concern, not Iraq, as the election results
show. See article below, from the 19/10/02 issue of The Economist:

Pakistan's election

Oh, what a lovely ally
Oct 17th 2002 | LAHORE
>From The Economist print edition


An anti-American grouping makes important gains that are likely to
embarrass President Musharraf

Get article background

“AMERICANS are the killers, the butchers, the murderers,” observes the
mild mannered but plain speaking secretary-general of Pakistan's
Jamaat-i-Islami party, Syed Munawar Hassan. The views of Mr Hassan and
his party are not new. Like much of the Muslim world they are convinced
that the United States and Israel have formed a tag team for the purpose
of oppressing Muslims, a belief fanned into fury by the American bombing
of Afghanistan, Israel's assaults on Palestinians and now the threat of
war against Iraq.

Until now, such views could be treated as dissent, blasting Pakistan's
pro-western policies without injuring them. Pakistan has been among the
most valuable members of the American-led coalition against terrorism.
Last week's general election may have changed that. The MMA grouping of
religious parties, including Jamaat-i-Islami, stormed from the fringes
of Pakistani politics into the centre, positioning themselves to govern
two of Pakistan's four provinces and winning more seats in the national
parliament than they have ever done. There is a chance that this group
will be part of the coalition in charge of the central government.

Opposition to Pakistan's anti-terrorist alliance with the United States
was the centrepiece of their campaign and will be their top priority in
government, says Mr Hassan. The two provinces they look set to govern,
North West Frontier Province and Balochistan, blur into Afghanistan.
They are prime hunting grounds for refugee members of al-Qaeda,
including, perhaps, Osama bin Laden. George Bush and Pakistan's
president, Pervez Musharraf, must now be wondering what the religious
parties can do to sabotage the hunt. They are not the only ones in
shock. The days of freedom of expression in parliament are behind us,
laments Aitzaz Ahsan, a leader of the centrist Pakistan People's Party.
He recalls that in 1999 a handful of fundamentalist senators so
intimidated their colleagues that only four voted for a resolution
condemning honour killings of women who had eloped. Will tradition now
smother modernity?

India, Pakistan's perennial enemy, is also worried. Its foreign
minister, Yashwant Sinha, called the gains of the
religious parties a bad signal. How much closer will fundamentalists get
to controlling Pakistan's arsenal of nuclear weapons? The rise of the
religious parties is the sum of some fears, not all of them. It brings
an illiberal, anti-American element to the centre of Pakistan's
political arena, which cannot but complicate the war on terrorism.
General Musharraf, who tried, though not very consistently, to curb the
influence of religion in public life in the three years since seizing
power in a coup, will probably stop trying.  Concessions to India over
the disputed state of Kashmir, never
imminent, are even less likely. But there is little danger of Pakistan
becoming a rogue Islamist state, an Iraq with a hankering for martyrdom.
Some of the religious parties are pro-Taliban, but are more worldly and
pragmatic than their defeated Afghan brothers. Access to political power
will make t

Re: [ZION] Blessed

[Marc A. Schindler]

We're thankful this evening that the Washington snipers have been caught, and
that the Chechen terrorists have been routed from the Moscow opera house with
minimal loss of life. As bad as it was, it could have been worse.

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> My friends,
>
> I fervently pray that the Lord might generously bless all those who
> suffer or are sorely afflicted.  May their souls be salved with healing
> and relief.
>
> As for myself, I reiterate my own marvel--every Sunday, the doors of the
> church do not of themselves swing shut, at my very approach.  The Lord
> is good to all, even when we merit punishment and stripes.
>
> I'm grateful beyond my capacity to express, just to share the privilege
> of calling myself a "disciple".  Anything beyond that is a richness of
> undeserved blessings.
>
> ---
> Mij Ebaboc
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

[ZION] Isaiah Study Resource

[Steven Montgomery]

Check out Ivan D. Sanderson's magnificent Isaiah study site: 
http://isaiah.1hwy.com/


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

". . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct 
political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and 
comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be 
able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests 
of the world."--John Taylor

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

[ZION] Blessed

[Jim Cobabe]

My friends,

I fervently pray that the Lord might generously bless all those who 
suffer or are sorely afflicted.  May their souls be salved with healing 
and relief.

As for myself, I reiterate my own marvel--every Sunday, the doors of the 
church do not of themselves swing shut, at my very approach.  The Lord 
is good to all, even when we merit punishment and stripes.

I'm grateful beyond my capacity to express, just to share the privilege 
of calling myself a "disciple".  Anything beyond that is a richness of 
undeserved blessings.

---
Mij Ebaboc 

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

[ZION] Tongue-tied

[Marc A. Schindler]

Remember when we were discussing how to pronounce John Tvedtnes's last
name (TWET-ness is the right way, incidentally), and we were talking
about how hard it is to pronounce some languages? Well, here's a real
tongue-twister, one of the so-called click languages that anyone who saw
The Gods Must Be Crazy will be familiar with:

South African languages

Tongue-tied
Oct 17th 2002 | JOHANNESBURG
>From The Economist print edition


The imminent death of a rich African language

LANGUAGES abound in South Africa: it has 11 official ones, and dozens of
unofficial. But the death on October 7th of Elsie Vaalbooi, aged about
100, saddened linguists. She was one of the last speakers of n|u, a
click-based dialect of the once-nomadic San people. Only a handful of
her ageing relatives can still use n|u, the last known example of !Ui, a
family of San languages spoken across southern Africa by
hunter-gatherers, possibly for the past 30,000 years. It is now, it
seems, about to expire.

According to UNESCO, the UN's cultural body, half the world's 6,000 or
so languages could die within a generation. Indigenous, nomadic groups,
such as Australia's aborigines (with 400 languages) and southern
Africa's San, have rich deposits of old languages. But they are
vulnerable as traditional lifestyles die. Of an estimated 1,400 African
tongues, 500 are in decline, half of them facing imminent extinction.

Mrs Vaalbooi had become a campaigner for the San tongues. “I want our
language to come back. I want our water, our animals, our plants,” she
said as South Africa's government returned 40,000 hectares (100,000
acres) to her Khomani community in 1999. Her activism was matched by
historians who say that the study of long-isolated languages will reveal
the origins of human speech.

Remarkably, !Ui and a cousin language in Botswana, !Xoo, have proved
more complex than almost any other. Spoken languages usually employ just
20 sound units or phonemes. English-speakers have 55 of them, but
!Ui-speakers use more than 140, says Nigel Crawhall of South Africa's
San Institute.

Study of such a complex language should reveal more about
hunter-gatherer cultures. But time is short. When Mrs Vaalbooi died last
week, there was almost nobody left to say “!hoi ca”, goodbye, in her
mother tongue.




--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and
deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences
have been properly debated…To think of the future and wait was merely
another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just
an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a
question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.”
– Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in “The
Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

[ZION] Oh, what a lovely ally

[Marc A. Schindler]

It's awfully hard not to say "I told you so"

But Pakistan is the real concern, not Iraq, as the election results
show. See article below, from the 19/10/02 issue of The Economist:

Pakistan's election

Oh, what a lovely ally
Oct 17th 2002 | LAHORE
>From The Economist print edition


An anti-American grouping makes important gains that are likely to
embarrass President Musharraf

Get article background

“AMERICANS are the killers, the butchers, the murderers,” observes the
mild mannered but plain speaking secretary-general of Pakistan's
Jamaat-i-Islami party, Syed Munawar Hassan. The views of Mr Hassan and
his party are not new. Like much of the Muslim world they are convinced
that the United States and Israel have formed a tag team for the purpose
of oppressing Muslims, a belief fanned into fury by the American bombing
of Afghanistan, Israel's assaults on Palestinians and now the threat of
war against Iraq.

Until now, such views could be treated as dissent, blasting Pakistan's
pro-western policies without injuring them. Pakistan has been among the
most valuable members of the American-led coalition against terrorism.
Last week's general election may have changed that. The MMA grouping of
religious parties, including Jamaat-i-Islami, stormed from the fringes
of Pakistani politics into the centre, positioning themselves to govern
two of Pakistan's four provinces and winning more seats in the national
parliament than they have ever done. There is a chance that this group
will be part of the coalition in charge of the central government.

Opposition to Pakistan's anti-terrorist alliance with the United States
was the centrepiece of their campaign and will be their top priority in
government, says Mr Hassan. The two provinces they look set to govern,
North West Frontier Province and Balochistan, blur into Afghanistan.
They are prime hunting grounds for refugee members of al-Qaeda,
including, perhaps, Osama bin Laden. George Bush and Pakistan's
president, Pervez Musharraf, must now be wondering what the religious
parties can do to sabotage the hunt. They are not the only ones in
shock. The days of freedom of expression in parliament are behind us,
laments Aitzaz Ahsan, a leader of the centrist Pakistan People's Party.
He recalls that in 1999 a handful of fundamentalist senators so
intimidated their colleagues that only four voted for a resolution
condemning honour killings of women who had eloped. Will tradition now
smother modernity?

India, Pakistan's perennial enemy, is also worried. Its foreign
minister, Yashwant Sinha, called the gains of the
religious parties a bad signal. How much closer will fundamentalists get
to controlling Pakistan's arsenal of nuclear weapons? The rise of the
religious parties is the sum of some fears, not all of them. It brings
an illiberal, anti-American element to the centre of Pakistan's
political arena, which cannot but complicate the war on terrorism.
General Musharraf, who tried, though not very consistently, to curb the
influence of religion in public life in the three years since seizing
power in a coup, will probably stop trying.  Concessions to India over
the disputed state of Kashmir, never
imminent, are even less likely. But there is little danger of Pakistan
becoming a rogue Islamist state, an Iraq with a hankering for martyrdom.
Some of the religious parties are pro-Taliban, but are more worldly and
pragmatic than their defeated Afghan brothers. Access to political power
will make them more so. They must contend with many
other forces, including rivals in the fragmented parliament, the armed
forces, which can veto almost anything politicians do, pressures from
the United States and divisions within their own ranks. Pakistan is in
for a period of uncertainty, perhaps even instability, but not
revolution.

The elections knocked Pakistan askew. The idea had been to restore
democracy after three years of military rule without bringing back the
habitual sins of corruption, political vendettas, masochistic economic
policies and clashes between civilian and military authorities, which
often ended with the army taking over. To this end, General Musharraf
first secured his own position as president by holding a referendum in
April, which almost no one but he regards as legitimate. He then amended
the constitution to give the president the power to dismiss parliament
and to give the armed forces a permanent role in government through a
National Security Council, headed by the president and including the top
generals and elected officials. Finally, he tried to engineer the
election so that the parliament it produced would acquiesce in all of
this.

Criminal proceedings against Pakistan's two pre-eminent politicians,
Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, both former prime ministers, kept them
out of the country. A split was arranged in Mr Sharif's Pakistan Muslim
League; PML(Q), the bit friendly to General Musharraf, got extra help
from the administration and won more seats than 

Re: [ZION] American Gnosticism

[Marc A. Schindler]

This is the theme of Harold Bloom's book, "The American Religion." He means that
we believe we have a body of knowledge not known to the body of Christians in
general. I'd suggest reading his book for more information.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> I recently heard Mormonism referred to as American gnosticism.   What does
> that mean?  Does it mean salvation through the acquiring of secret
> knowledge?  And if that is so, are we not modern gnostics?  For we are
> taught that gospel knowledge is the most important kind of knowledge and we
> call our temples a "house of learning."  We go there to learn things that
> cannot even be discussed outside the temple.  We learn line upon line,
> precept upon precept until we have learned... what?  And if this knowledge
> not available to every person sitting in the Ketchikan Ward Elder's quorum,
> if all of the saving ordinances are not available except to those who have
> mastered some esoteric temple knowledge, does that not make us gnostics?
>
> I am asking this out of genuine ignorance.  In other words, it is not a
> rhetorical question.  I am not asking as a method of teaching.  I would
> like to know the answers to these questions.
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "I can image a world without war, a world without fear, a
> world  without hate.  And I can picture us attacking that
> world, because they'd never expect it.' --Jack Handy
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

[ZION] Iowa: the most democratic place in the USA?

[Marc A. Schindler]

In praise of Iowa: (The Economist, 17/10/02)

American politics

In praise of Iowa Oct 17th 2002  From The Economist print edition

 The only democratic part of the United States

THIS newspaper has doubts about Iowa. It is too empty. And every four
years presidential candidates file to its caucuses to be blackmailed by
dour farmers into supporting their ethanol subsidy—as foul a piece of
political pork as you will find. It is no great surprise that this
year's monstrous farm bill was largely the work of Senator Tom Harkin of
Iowa.

Yet, in one respect, Iowa towers above the rest of America like a silo
above the cornfields: democracy. This year, America should be set for a
close election. The Republicans have an 11-seat advantage in the House,
the Democrats a precarious one-seat advantage in the Senate, and there
are plenty of governorships up for grabs. The polls showed the Democrats
ahead in the summer, when the economy was the main subject; now, thanks
to Iraq, the Republicans are just in front.

And how will this “50:50 country” emerge at the hustings? There will
indeed be close races in the statewide contests—ie, those for the Senate
and the governors' mansions. But in the biggest forum of American
democracy—the House of Representatives—no more than 20 of the 435 races
look competitive. In any other evenly divided country's lower house, one
in every five members of parliament, deputies or assemblymen would be a
nervous wreck by this stage; in America, only one in 20 congressmen
needs to think about an alternative career.

The reason is redistricting, the rejigging of district boundaries to
take account of demographic changes. In most countries, this is done by
independent bureaucrats. In virtually every American state it is done by
state politicians—and, boy, does it show. The parties “gerrymander”
districts to cram supporters into absurdly shaped districts: doughnuts,
embryos, crabs, Rorschach tests.

Usually, the ruling party cheats. In Florida, which the latest
presidential election indicated was an evenly divided state, the ruling
Republicans have produced 17 Republican seats and eight Democratic ones.
More often, the two parties cut deals to protect incumbents. Ten of the
Florida seats are so safe that the candidates are running unopposed. The
only competitive seat in the whole of California is that occupied by the
disgraced Gary Condit, who is now retiring.

The law does nothing to stop this. Indeed, the Voting Rights Act, which
encourages majority-minority districts, provides an excellent excuse for
cheating. Illinois's bizarre sandwich-like fourth district, which
consists of two unconnected slivers, exists purely to gather up
Democratic Latinos. And new software is allowing the parties to be even
more precise about their cheating. Given all the other advantages that
incumbents have, in terms of name-recognition, money-raising powers and
the ability (like Mr Harkin) to bring home pork, this makes for a
travesty of democracy.

There are coincidental exceptions to this rule: seven states are so
sparsely populated that they have only one House seat each. Five other
states have bipartisan commissions, sometimes with a neutral
tie-breaker. But the noblest exception is Iowa: it has handed
redistricting over to an independent bureau that is not allowed to take
political considerations such as voting patterns and party registration
into account when drawing boundaries. As a result, four of its five
seats have competitive races—more than California, New York, Texas and
Illinois combined can muster. The citizens of Arizona recently voted by
referendum to adopt a similar system to Iowa's.

No method of redistricting is perfect, but the Iowan way is better than
the rest. Forget the jokes about silos. Maybe it is time to tow the
Statue of Liberty to Des Moines.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and
deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences
have been properly debated…To think of the future and wait was merely
another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just
an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a
question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.”
– Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in “The
Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This emai

RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

[Jim Cobabe]

"Great consideration is given regarding the confidentiality of the 
decisions of a Church disciplinary council. No announcement is ever made 
when a member is placed on formal probation. Decisions to disfellowship 
or excommunicate are generally not announced publicly unless the 
transgression is widely known, the transgressor's behavior constitutes a 
threat to the Church or the community, or an announcement is necessary 
to dispel rumors. Even when an announcement is made, it is limited to a 
general statement of the outcome."  (M. Russell Ballard, Counseling with 
Our Councils: Learning to Minister Together in the Church and in the 
Family [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1997], 141 - 142.)

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

Re: [ZION] Hindu Temple

[Noel Bennion]

I guess my point on this was a veiled question on how to rationalize John's
position regarding the quality and quantity of truth in other religions with
the donations sanctions by the Church to these non Christian groups. There
is the reference in D&C 51:10 which states: "And let that which belongeth to
this people not be taken and given unto that of another church." I have to
assume that the brethren know when to support non-Christian and worldly
organizations and when not to.

Noel

---Original Message---

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, October 27, 2002 3:39:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ZION] Hindu Temple

On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:31:28 -0500 (Easter Noel Bennion
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


> I have to assume that the 'value' gained from helping other churches
> comes
> from the missionary opportunities that result. It would be
> interesting to
> see if anyone involved in these types of donations ends up joining
> the
> church.

>

> Noel

They may not join in this life--but seeds have definitely been planted,
and we have a millenium to see how many of those seeds come to fruition.

val :-)

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple

[Noel Bennion]

I recently finished reading "The Life and Times of Martin Luther" by D
aubigne. As a minor point, Luther never left the Catholic Church, he was
excommunicated twice though. It is no doubt that they did not have the
fulness of the gospel, but I do believe that they were led by the Spirit to
achieve what was necessary in preparation for the restoration of the gospel.

Noel

---Original Message---

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, October 27, 2002 1:11:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple

At 05:00 AM, Sunday, 10/27/02, Grampa Bill wrote:
> This is true. Martin Luther, the founder of Lutheranism and John Wesley,
> the founder of Methodism are pointed to as examples. However, can any one
> name a person living while the Fullness of the Gospel was on the earth
> who was called of God to teach a lesser truth?

Amen, Grampa. And remember, Martin Luther and John Wesley left the
apostate religion of their childhood, just as all those who hearken to the
call of our missionaries have to do. The churches they left had not power
to save. Even the satanists have some truth.


John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

[Jim Cobabe]

Israel is covenant-founded, temple-based, and Christ-centered. The work 
of Jesus Christ is the reason the covenant of Abraham exists. The 
Abrahamic covenant, which is the covenant of Israel, is in every way as 
significant in the last days as it was in any age of the past.

Jesus Christ is the Savior of all nations, yet by heavenly design and 
divine intent, he was born into the  of  through the house of David. 
Although he is God of the whole earth, he is precisely the Holy One of 
Israel.

The arrangement of nations and races is the work of the Lord, according 
to his foreknowledge and our own premortal existence. Thus God has a 
hand in the development of history.

The Abrahamic covenant is a prototype or manifestation of the work and 
mission of Jesus Christ. Just as Jesus was an Israelite but extends his 
Atonement to all nations, so also the Abrahamic covenant is centered in 
Israel but has provisions for reaching out to all nations. The covenant 
incorporates priesthood, the Holy Ghost, baptism, eternal marriage, 
posterity, land, and a blessing for all nations.

 The literal, biological descendants of Abraham have a natural right to 
the priesthood and the fullness of the gospel of Christ. Ephraim holds 
the birthright, or keys of presidency, in the last days.

Jesus deliberately limited his personal ministry, both before and after 
his Resurrection, to those nations biologically of Israel. Jesus 
manifests himself to the Gentiles through the Holy Ghost, as they are 
taught the gospel by prophets who are of the house of Israel.

The Gentile nations can obtain the blessings of the gospel through the 
preaching of the prophets of Israel. Whether one is Gentile or 
Israelite, the only way to obtain the blessings of the Abrahamic 
covenant is by faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, receiving the 
Holy Ghost, priesthood, and so forth.

The house of Israel has been scattered over all the world, among all 
nations; therefore, most nations today have the blood of Israel in their 
veins to some extent or another.

Latter-day Saints are for the most part biologically descended from 
Joseph through Ephraim and Manasseh. As descendants of Joseph, the 
members of the Church have a responsibility in the last days to feed the 
world the bread of life, that is, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith was a legal heir to the priesthood and the keys of 
presidency through his lineage of Ephraim.

As far as individual salvation is concerned, a Gentile can be saved in 
the celestial kingdom as an Israelite can, but the process for the 
Gentile is to obtain the gospel through the agency of Israelite prophets 
and teachers.

A primary purpose of the gathering is for building temples so that 
sacred ordinances essential for salvation may be administered. The 
building of temples is an indication that the blood of Israel is present 
in the land. That truth is especially noteworthy in view of the temples 
being built in Asia (Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong, the Philippines, 
and so forth).

The holy scriptures are Israel's witness for Jesus Christ and will 
eventually consist of records of the Jews, the Nephites, and the ten 
tribes.

The tribes of Judah, Joseph, and Levi were each given special 
responsibilities of long-lasting significance, which will be fulfilled 
when Israel is restored to the lands of their inheritance.

The restoration of Israel in the last days is much more extensive than a 
mere gathering and is a work many times larger than the exodus from 
Egypt in Moses' time. The promises of restoration are beginning to be 
fulfilled even now but will not be fully accomplished until well into 
the Millennium.

 The gathering progresses through various phases. The first phase was to 
midwestern America and then to the Rocky Mountains. Currently the 
gathering is to the stakes of Zion wherever they may be. Other phases 
will come in their time.

To be engaged in the gathering and restoration of Israel was described 
by the Prophet Joseph Smith as being on the "pathway to eternal fame and 
immortal glory."


 (Robert J. Matthews, Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews: Gospel 
Scholars Series [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1999], 581.)

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

[Noel Bennion]

Val,
You hit the issue on the head. In one context, a word has a particular
meaning, in another something different. But, after the first scratch of the
surface, I can see that there are definite patterns. For example, in 1st
Nephi chapters 13-15, one can see a pattern of pre-restoration (1st Nephi
13:1-33), restoration ( 1st Nephi 13:34-42) and post restoration (1st Nephi
14) designations of gentiles. As can be expected, the restoration and
post-restoration are, I believe, inclusive of the members of the church.
That approach makes sense to me based of the blessings bestowed in the last
two sections relative to the Gentiles. It is also appropriate to consider
the warnings in those sections to be applicable to the members of the church
 Hope that helps.

Noel

---Original Message---

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, October 27, 2002 3:39:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

Noel:
After reading your response to John, I had a thought (I know,
scary thing). Sometimes--in fact many times--in the scriptures and
doctrines of the church, one word does mean many different things. For
example--salvation and exaltation. Are they the same?? Sometimes
"Salvation" is used in a context to mean "Exaltation" but generally
speaking, and standing alone, they are not.

I think context is important as you make your list of relevant
scriptures. For instance, we are gentiles. Most of us have earth
origins that go back to Europe--or that is predominant in our genealogy.
However, we are adopted into the tribes of Israel by our righteousness.
That is what my patriarchal blessing tells me. I am of the tribe of
Ephraim. Am I a direct descendent of Ephraim? I doubt it. It's an
adoption thing.

In another context, the term gentile is meant to refer to the
worldly world--those who do not have the light of Christ.

end of thoughts
FWIW
val

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

[ZION] Hooray for Bollywood!

[Marc A. Schindler]

Bollywood meets Hollywood...in T-town.
<>

Fact: Bollywood produces far more movies per year than Hollywood.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and
deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences
have been properly debated…To think of the future and wait was merely
another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just
an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a
question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.”
– Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in “The
Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

[ZION] Al-Ahram Weekly | Heritage | Letting the people go

[Clifford M Dubery]

Levantines from all walks of life have been settling in Egypt from very early times. 
Their presence can be traced back to the Middle Kingdom about 2000 BC, and they came 
in increasing waves from the New Kingdom, about 1567 BC, when Egypt commanded a vast 
empire that included Syria and northern Mesopotamia. They settled all over the country 
and were not all the brick-makers dissatisfied with their lot as described in Exodus.  
http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/609/hr1.htmGet more from the Web.  FREE MSN 
Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

Re: [ZION] American Gnosticism

[Paul Osborne]

>I recently heard Mormonism referred to as American gnosticism.   What
does 
>that mean?  


I'm not sure but it sounds like something that is associated with the
ideas and teachings of a progressive religion that has it's own tangents
outside of mainstream thinking. I can see how this term could be applied
to several other Christian religions besides Mormonism. I don't see it as
a negative thing at all but simply a term for classifying religious
evolution; or should I say, revolution?

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

[Noel Bennion]

I agree that there can be multiple meanings across the realm of sacred
literature. I am not as interested in the dictionary meaning as I am in the
meaning of its particular use in scripture. I would be very easy to simply
say that, since gentile, for example,  as multiple meanings, I can ignore
the message relating to that group in the scripture. There are specific
promises and warnings to the Jews, gentiles and to the house of Israel in
the scriptures. There are also messages about timing relative to the
reception of the gospel. Each of us must choose where we want to spend our
time.

Right now, my original questions have particular interest to me. Given the
well-seasoned gospel veterans on this list, I probably sound quite
elementary. Sorry, sometimes for a slow learner like myself, I must take
slow deliberate steps and build 'line upon line'

Thanks for your insights,

Noel

Larry Jackson wrote:

Gentile has several meanings. The dictionary meaning
is anyone who is not a Jew. So when Jew and Gentile
are spoken of, many members fall into the Gentile group.

Gentile also is sometimes used to refer to those who are
not members of the Church. So when Saint and Gentile
are spoken of, members do not fall into the Gentile group.

So sometimes members are gentiles, and sometimes
they are not.

Larry Jackson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

[ZION] American Gnosticism

[John W. Redelfs]

I recently heard Mormonism referred to as American gnosticism.   What does 
that mean?  Does it mean salvation through the acquiring of secret 
knowledge?  And if that is so, are we not modern gnostics?  For we are 
taught that gospel knowledge is the most important kind of knowledge and we 
call our temples a "house of learning."  We go there to learn things that 
cannot even be discussed outside the temple.  We learn line upon line, 
precept upon precept until we have learned... what?  And if this knowledge 
not available to every person sitting in the Ketchikan Ward Elder's quorum, 
if all of the saving ordinances are not available except to those who have 
mastered some esoteric temple knowledge, does that not make us gnostics?

I am asking this out of genuine ignorance.  In other words, it is not a 
rhetorical question.  I am not asking as a method of teaching.  I would 
like to know the answers to these questions.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"I can image a world without war, a world without fear, a
world  without hate.  And I can picture us attacking that
world, because they'd never expect it.' --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple

[Valerie Nielsen Williams]

On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:08:21 -0900 "John W. Redelfs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> At 11:46 PM, Saturday, 10/26/02, Paul Osborne wrote:
> >And by the way--you said: "They do not have *all* the saving truths 
> or 
> >ordinances" but I submit to you that they have NONE because all 
> saving 
> >truths and ordinances are in Christ Jesus, the Son of God.
> 
> I would like to bear a second witness to what Paul has said here.  
> There is 
> truth in other faiths.  I agree that other faiths have some truth. 
> In some 
> cases a lot of truth.  But there are no _saving_ truths or 
> ordinances in 
> that practicing those religions will ultimately end in the followers 
> being 
> damned.
> 
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I have heard the truths from other religions referred to as broken pieces
of a mirror.  Yes, they have fragments of truth, but you must have the
whole mirror to be THE true church.  A question my husband had a hard
time with when he first joined the church was why we had to get baptized
for his sister who had passed away many years previous.  He said she had
been "saved" and was already baptized.  It was explained to him simply
"Yes, but the person who baptized her did not have the authority to do
so."  It was a beautiful day some years later when we went to the temple
(my birthday actually) and did the work for his parents, his brother and
sister.  Then we had them all sealed.  

I am sure that right now he is with them, grateful that they have had the
saving ordinances and that they are all sealed together.  I cannot wait
for the day when I get to meet them.  As I continue to do Tom's family's
genealogy, I get a lot of "warm fuzzies" that I am sure come from beyond
the veil.

val


Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

Re: [ZION] The Jerusalem Temple

[Valerie Nielsen Williams]

We have many sects in this area who are Messianic Jews.  They DO believe
Christ is the Messiah.  Unfortunately, there are those of traditional
Jewish belief who shun and bad mouth them.  The Messianic Jews have even
had crosses burned in their yards--crosses the KKK says wasn't them.  Go
figure.

val


On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 04:36:34 -0800 Grampa Bill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Gary Smith wrote:
> 
> >Most Jewish religions now see Christ as a
> >righteous man who taught good. They respect him as a teacher of
> >righteousness. They just do not accept him as Messiah.
> >  
> >
> =
> Grampa Bill asks:
> How can this be? If Jesus was not the Christ, the Son of God, 
> then 
> His entire life and His ministry in particular is built upon a lie. 
> I 
> see no way to respect Christ and His teachings other than to accept 
> his 
> Godhood.
> 
> -- 
> "Don't waste the atonement."
> Sue Woodbury, Oct. 20, 2002
> 
> Love y'all,
> Grampa Bill in Savannah
> 
>
/

> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
>
/

> 
> 
> 
> 


.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤


Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

[ZION] Hindu Temple

[Valerie Nielsen Williams]

On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:31:28 -0500 (Easter Noel Bennion
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


> I have to assume that the 'value' gained from helping other churches 
> comes
> from the missionary opportunities that result. It would be 
> interesting to
> see if anyone involved in these types of donations ends up joining 
> the
> church.

> 

> Noel

They may not join in this life--but seeds have definitely been planted,
and we have a millenium to see how many of those seeds come to fruition.

val :-)


Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

[Valerie Nielsen Williams]

Noel:
After reading your response to John, I had a thought (I know,
scary thing).  Sometimes--in fact many times--in the scriptures and
doctrines of the church, one word does mean many different things.  For
example--salvation and exaltation.  Are they the same??  Sometimes
"Salvation" is used in a context to mean "Exaltation" but generally
speaking, and standing alone, they are not.

I think context is important as you make your list of relevant
scriptures.  For instance, we are gentiles.  Most of us have earth
origins that go back to Europe--or that is predominant in our genealogy. 
However, we are adopted into the tribes of Israel by our righteousness. 
That is what my patriarchal blessing tells me.  I am of the tribe of
Ephraim.  Am I a direct descendent of Ephraim?  I doubt it.  It's an
adoption thing.

In another context, the term gentile is meant to refer to the
worldly world--those who do not have the light of Christ. 

end of thoughts 
FWIW
val 

.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤


Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

Re: [ZION] What is patriotism?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Here's another example of where John and I would agree, although perhaps for
different reasons. I don't think it has anything to do with George II's and
Cheney's membership in any secret organization, but rather because Cheney is more
powerful than the president and better connected (and more of a war hawk). I
sincerely believe George II's war-mongering talk will cease the day after the
mid-term elections, where Cheney really means it.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> At 09:18 PM, Saturday, 10/26/02, Gary Smith wrote:
> >This is the problem with many liberal writers-they make statements from
> >the heart, regardless of whether they back up their statements with
> >facts, or if those facts are correct. First off, the president has shown
> >himself not to be a "mental lightweight." Second, where is the evidence
> >that Cheney is an "evil power", especially when no actual misdeeds have
> >been shown at Haliburton Oil?
>
> Cheney is a CFR insider.  That is bd.  Not only that he ranks George
> W.  He is a whole generation older.  If there were a serious disagreement
> between Bush and Cheney, Bush Sr. would reign in George W. because of
> Cheney's rank in the secret combination.
>
> Of course, I can't prove any of this.  But then I know a lot of things that
> I cannot prove.  The gospel is one of them.
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more
> and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of
> our solar system." --Jack Handy
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

Re: [ZION] What is patriotism?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> Gary, I agree with almost every point you've made here. So as not to
> make this solely a me-too post, let me add that when a writer (US
> citizen or alien) makes a statement like, "I love America but I hate
> Republicanism",

Why? Are you disallowing a journalist the right to a political point of view like
the rest of us? I know of at least two general authorities who came to "love
America" but decided that joining the Democrats was a better way of expressing
that love (N. Eldon Tanner and his uncle, Hugh B. Brown).

> that writer has shown himself to be duplicitous and
> untrustworthy. Any "good points" he goes on to make are then completely
> lost on me, because he has already proven himself a liar.
>
> Stephen
>
> Gary Smith wrote:
> > This is the problem with many liberal writers-they make statements from
> > the heart, regardless of whether they back up their statements with
> > facts, or if those facts are correct.
> > First off, the president has shown himself not to be a "mental
> > lightweight." Second, where is the evidence that Cheney is an "evil
> > power", especially when no actual misdeeds have been shown at Haliburton
> > Oil?  Third, Rumsfeld never was a senator, perhaps the author should try
> > looking up in the dictionary the difference between Secretary of Defense
> > and Attorney General
> > So, if anyone is a "lightweight" here, it is the author of the article.
> > I know we USAmericans do have an enormous patriotism (at times), but we
> > also have a lot of suspicion. Isn't it interesting that discussions on
> > whether we should go to war with Iraq are right or not are going on in
> > this country? A blind patriot wouldn't have such discussions going on.
> > As
> > for "evil", I'll bet this guy still supports Clinton as a great
> > president. And how about those Democratic senators involved in Enron and
> > Global Crossing? Are they "evil" also? If you're going to call one
> > person
> > evil, then you at least need to be consistent. Finally, show you've at
> > least done some homework (who was this guy's copy editor, to let such
> > slop slip through?), and get the facts straight.
> >
> > I'm a historian (among other trades), and I've not only seen Ken Burns'
> > Civil War, but I've read several studies on it. yes, it was a tragedy.
> > But massive deaths on both sides only shows the tragedy of war, not its
> > justification. The North fought for union and to defeat slavery, while
> > the South fought for states' rights and to keep their slaves. All very
> > key issues for anyone calling himself an American. But a Canadian may
> > not
> > fully understand that, as Canada has never had to struggle with slavery,
> > states' rights, or a major fight to maintain its unity. It's kind of
> > like
> > an American today not understanding poverty or slavery, because we just
> > don't have it as drastic as other nations, unless they travel and live
> > in
> > another place for some time and learn to appreciate it. I like what
> > ex-Black Panther Eldridge Cleaver said when he returned from Russia,
> > "there is more freedom in an American jail than on the streets of
> > Moscow."
> >
> > Should cost only be counted in body bags? What is the total value of
> > freedom from terror, or to maintain our sovereignty? Ten body bags?
> > Twenty? One hundred? Or should we just curl up in a corner and accept
> > the
> > idea that no amount of body bags are worth the cost of freedom.
> >
> > Americans do not honor war. Americans honor freedom and those who defend
> > that great treasure, which only a minority of homo sapiens enjoy in this
> > world.  Flags fly, because unlike the flags of other nations (including
> > Canada's), ours represent our freedom and vision. It is a vision that
> > has
> > endured since Thomas Jefferson inked those sacred words on a piece of
> > parchment: "We hold these truths to be self-evident...life, liberty, and
> > the pursuit of happiness."
> >
> > Few nations have made a love of freedom so innate with the human spirit
> > as have Americans. This inspires some, and infuriates many who do not
> > have the same vision. The French, who seek equality and brotherhood,
> > cannot understand what real freedom is. This is why their revolution
> > failed. Most nations do not have a Jefferson or a Thomas Paine. Few have
> > men who are anything but "summer soldiers" that sneak home when the
> > winter chill is in the air. Few have a group of men willing to sign
> > their
> > death warrants on such a parchment as the Declaration of Independence,
> > or
> > to truly seek that freedom for all men; allowing that freedom to expand
> > to other groups not originally included, such as blacks and women.
> > Today,
> > there are many nations that still have slaves, and that still treat
> > women
> > like dogs. We stand as symbol which those nations hate. Should we be
> > ashamed of the truth and light we've brought to the world? "A city on a
> > hill cannot

Re: [ZION] demonizing the media

[Marc A. Schindler]

Ironically, it has now come out that MSNBC and CNN in particular cooperated with
Montgomery Co. police by sitting on stories they had, for the public good. One
reporter said that the code amongst journalists covering wars and the like, is
not to report on strategy or troop movements in advance. Unfortunately, since
Vietnam the US armed forces has come down very hard on the media and has not even
allowed them to report on battles after they're over. So in this case the media,
more or less, seem to have been cooperating with the police, to the common good.

Gary Smith wrote:

> I think the media should use some self-censorship on occasion. It gets
> too easy to destroy peoples' lives over small things. Imagine how WWII
> would have gone if the media would have spent their time telling our
> troop movements, or about FDR's extra-marital affairs, or his illness?
> In the case at hand with the sniper, it was strategic use of the media
> that put out the car description and Jersey plates that helped catch him.
> Good for them for being a help, and not a hindrance in this issue.
> The media should first be a defense of our rights and freedoms against
> government. Next, they should help the public consider all sides of the
> issues, so they can decide for themselves. Then, they should be a help to
> society. Finally, they should be a source of entertainment.
>
> When they do this, Bravo. When they are only entertainment, or they
> become too politicized on one side or the other, then they only become a
> part of an unbalanced society, or worse, government.
>
> K'aya K'ama,
> Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
> .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
> "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
>
> 
>
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
>
> Only $9.95 per month!
>
> Visit www.juno.com
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

Re: [ZION] What is patriotism?

[Marc A. Schindler]

This is a touching and, ironically, a from-the-heart answer. But where are the
counter-arguments from the head?

Gary Smith wrote:

> This is the problem with many liberal writers-they make statements from
> the heart, regardless of whether they back up their statements with
> facts, or if those facts are correct.
> First off, the president has shown himself not to be a "mental
> lightweight." Second, where is the evidence that Cheney is an "evil
> power", especially when no actual misdeeds have been shown at Haliburton
> Oil?  Third, Rumsfeld never was a senator, perhaps the author should try
> looking up in the dictionary the difference between Secretary of Defense
> and Attorney General
> So, if anyone is a "lightweight" here, it is the author of the article.
> I know we USAmericans do have an enormous patriotism (at times), but we
> also have a lot of suspicion. Isn't it interesting that discussions on
> whether we should go to war with Iraq are right or not are going on in
> this country? A blind patriot wouldn't have such discussions going on. As
> for "evil", I'll bet this guy still supports Clinton as a great
> president. And how about those Democratic senators involved in Enron and
> Global Crossing? Are they "evil" also? If you're going to call one person
> evil, then you at least need to be consistent. Finally, show you've at
> least done some homework (who was this guy's copy editor, to let such
> slop slip through?), and get the facts straight.
>
> I'm a historian (among other trades), and I've not only seen Ken Burns'
> Civil War, but I've read several studies on it. yes, it was a tragedy.
> But massive deaths on both sides only shows the tragedy of war, not its
> justification. The North fought for union and to defeat slavery, while
> the South fought for states' rights and to keep their slaves. All very
> key issues for anyone calling himself an American. But a Canadian may not
> fully understand that, as Canada has never had to struggle with slavery,
> states' rights, or a major fight to maintain its unity. It's kind of like
> an American today not understanding poverty or slavery, because we just
> don't have it as drastic as other nations, unless they travel and live in
> another place for some time and learn to appreciate it. I like what
> ex-Black Panther Eldridge Cleaver said when he returned from Russia,
> "there is more freedom in an American jail than on the streets of
> Moscow."
>
> Should cost only be counted in body bags? What is the total value of
> freedom from terror, or to maintain our sovereignty? Ten body bags?
> Twenty? One hundred? Or should we just curl up in a corner and accept the
> idea that no amount of body bags are worth the cost of freedom.
>
> Americans do not honor war. Americans honor freedom and those who defend
> that great treasure, which only a minority of homo sapiens enjoy in this
> world.  Flags fly, because unlike the flags of other nations (including
> Canada's), ours represent our freedom and vision. It is a vision that has
> endured since Thomas Jefferson inked those sacred words on a piece of
> parchment: "We hold these truths to be self-evident...life, liberty, and
> the pursuit of happiness."
>
> Few nations have made a love of freedom so innate with the human spirit
> as have Americans. This inspires some, and infuriates many who do not
> have the same vision. The French, who seek equality and brotherhood,
> cannot understand what real freedom is. This is why their revolution
> failed. Most nations do not have a Jefferson or a Thomas Paine. Few have
> men who are anything but "summer soldiers" that sneak home when the
> winter chill is in the air. Few have a group of men willing to sign their
> death warrants on such a parchment as the Declaration of Independence, or
> to truly seek that freedom for all men; allowing that freedom to expand
> to other groups not originally included, such as blacks and women. Today,
> there are many nations that still have slaves, and that still treat women
> like dogs. We stand as symbol which those nations hate. Should we be
> ashamed of the truth and light we've brought to the world? "A city on a
> hill cannot be hid, neither does one light a candle and place it under a
> bushel."
>
> Perhaps what irritates me most is liberal duplicity and using the Iraq
> war as an extension of their (and in this case, Canadian) vanity.
>
> K'aya K'ama,
> Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
> .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
> "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
>
> Marc quoting article:
> On the other hand, we have the axis of Bush-Chaney-Rumsfeld. What a
> triumvirate. The President is a mental lightweight. The Vice President
> is the evil power behind the throne, the man who walked away from his
> insider misdeeds at Halliburton Oil. (Remember too that two of the three
> of the sacred triumvirate are oilmen.) Then  there is Rummy. H

Re: [ZION] A Disturbing Contradiction

[Paul Osborne]

This is exactly how I see it and this is what the scriptures teach. I can
tell that John is quite familiar and in perfect touch with the style of
Bruce R McConkie's teachings and Mark E Peterson's too. All of the GA's
teach this but deliver it in their own style. Some are gentle like
President Monson and some pound the fist on the pulpit like Mark E
Peterson did but the message of the apostasy and the restoration is
clearly told.

Paul O  


On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 21:48:37 -0800 "John W. Redelfs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I don't believe there is any inconsistency or contradiction in Church 
> 
> doctrine on the matter, but am becoming increasingly disturbed by 
> what I 
> see as a growing inconsistency in the minds of the saints over the 
> relative 
> merits of apostate religions and true Christianity as only practised 
> by the 
> saints.  Of course there is some truth in other denominations.  So 
> what?  Nobody has ever said otherwise.  But the whole idea of a 
> "true" 
> Church loses all meaning if we don't remember that for there to be a 
> true 
> Church there have to be false churches.  False churches teach false 
> 
> doctrine.  They do not lead their members towards Christ.  On the 
> contrary, 
> most of them so confuse their members with false teachings that they 
> reject 
> our missionaries when otherwise they might have listened to them.
> 
> If it isn't a true Church, it is a false church.  I should think 
> that would 
> be obvious.   The saints seem to be incapable of understanding the 
> difference between the false doctrine taught by other churches and 
> the good 
> people who are misled by those doctrines.  We need to learn to 
> discern 
> between the various churches that people belong to and the people 
> themselves.
> 
> But no, every time I point out something wrong about the teachings 
> of 
> another church, I get practically booed out of the house by 
> protestations 
> that other churches have some truth.  Did I ever deny it?  They just 
> don't 
> have priesthood.  They don't have unpolluted doctrines.  The do not 
> have 
> the power to save.  And if a person remains committed to them, they 
> will be 
> damned for rejecting the servants of Christ and his gospel.  A man 
> who 
> lives and dies a Buddhist has as much chance of obtaining eternal 
> life as a 
> Baptist who does the same.  I say this keeping in mind that some 
> Buddhists 
> join the Church, and so do some Baptists.  But they are the only 
> Buddhists 
> and Baptists we are going to be associating with in the Celestial 
> Kingdom 
> if we are fortunate enough to end up there ourselves.
> 
> Broad is the path to destruction, but the narrow gate to the 
> Celestial 
> Kingdom is the baptism performed by the Church of Jesus Christ of 
> Latter-day Saints.  And there is no other way to get in.  No one 
> obtains 
> the Celestial Kingdom unless he becomes, dead or alive, a member of 
> the Church.
> 
> There seem to be a lot of people who are losing sight of this 
> fundamental 
> teaching of the gospel.
> 
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple

[John W. Redelfs]

At 07:09 AM, Sunday, 10/27/02, Ronn Blankenship wrote:

I think it's possible, because there are people who are not yet ready to 
go all the way from wherever they are now to the Fullness of the Gospel in 
one step.  If they are honestly seeking the truth, I believe God will lead 
them to it in steps no bigger than they can handle.

I do not believe that the Lord ever called a man to teach false 
doctrine.  And he never calls a man to practice priestcraft which is what 
any Protestant minister is doing if he takes money to preach.  We need to 
remember the things that the Book of Mormon says about false teachers, 
false prophets, and false churches.  I do not believe our leaders are 
saying what apparently many members of our Church think they are 
saying.  It seems that many saints are forgetting the difference between a 
good man and the false religion he practices in other churches.

In the 123 section of the Doctrine and Covenants it says:

For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and 
denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby 
they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because 
they know not where to find it—

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 123:12)

This doesn't sound like what I have been hearing on these lists.  And this 
verse is the Word of God.

The man who belongs to another church may be honest and good.  But his 
church is false.  At its core it is  "the subtle craftiness of men," who 
"lie in wait to deceive."

Why do you suppose the devil went to all the trouble of corrupting the 
teachings of these apostate churches?  He did it so that those who follow 
those teachings and belong to those churches will end up in his awful grasp 
and be led carefully down to hell.

Bruce R. McConkie spoke of other churches as "apostate Christendom."  In 
fact, that was his favorite label for them.  It was a phrase he used 
often.  Was he in error to do so.  I don't think he was.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to
laugh at that man." --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

Re: [ZION] The Four Ancient Nations

[Marc A. Schindler]

It is as far as the origin of mathematics is concerned, so far as I know.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> http://library.thinkquest.org/22584/emh1100.htm?tqskip1=1&tqtime=1026
>
> I found this statement while surging the web.  Can anyone here tell me if
> it is accurate?
>
> "In the Nile in Africa, the Tigris and Euphrates in western Asia, the Indus
> and then the Ganges in south-central Asia, and the Hwang Ho and then the
> Yangtze in eastern Asia, there was ancient nations called the ancient
> 4-civilizations until 2000 B.C."
>
> It's not very good grammar, but does it state fact?
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> If you were a poor Indian with no weapons, and a bunch
> of conquistadors came up to you and asked where the
> gold was, I don't think it would be a good idea to say, "I
> swallowed it.  So sue me."  --Jack Handy
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===

Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple

[John W. Redelfs]

At 11:46 PM, Saturday, 10/26/02, Paul Osborne wrote:

And by the way--you said: "They do not have *all* the saving truths or 
ordinances" but I submit to you that they have NONE because all saving 
truths and ordinances are in Christ Jesus, the Son of God.

I would like to bear a second witness to what Paul has said here.  There is 
truth in other faiths.  I agree that other faiths have some truth. In some 
cases a lot of truth.  But there are no _saving_ truths or ordinances in 
that practicing those religions will ultimately end in the followers being 
damned.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more
and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of
our solar system." --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple

[John W. Redelfs]

At 05:00 AM, Sunday, 10/27/02, Grampa Bill wrote:

 This is true. Martin Luther, the founder of Lutheranism and John Wesley, 
the founder of Methodism are pointed to as examples. However, can any one 
name a person living while the Fullness of the Gospel was on the earth 
who was called of God to teach a lesser truth?

Amen, Grampa.  And remember, Martin Luther and John Wesley left the 
apostate religion of their childhood, just as all those who hearken to the 
call of our missionaries have to do.  The churches they left had not power 
to save.  Even the satanists have some truth.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
If you were a poor Indian with no weapons, and a bunch
of conquistadors came up to you and asked where the
gold was, I don't think it would be a good idea to say, "I
swallowed it.  So sue me."  --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

[larry . jackson]

Noel Bennion:

John, ... You mention that Gileadi said that the members 
of the church were gentiles.  Was that the reason he was 
ex'ed? 

___

No, it was not the reason.  And he is again a member.

Gentile has several meanings.  The dictionary meaning 
is anyone who is not a Jew.  So when Jew and Gentile 
are spoken of, many members fall into the Gentile group.

Gentile also is sometimes used to refer to those who are 
not members of the Church.  So when Saint and Gentile 
are spoken of, members do not fall into the Gentile group.

So sometimes members are gentiles, and sometimes 
they are not.

Larry Jackson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

Re: [ZION] A Disturbing Contradiction

[Noel Bennion]

Under the direction of the Presiding Bishopric, the LDS Foundation makes
contributions to other churches. For example, this is taken from The
Columbian on Feb 28, 2002:
---
Domes in the desert
Mormons in Utah have donated thousands of hours, and thousands of
dollars, to building a new temple about an hour south of their Salt Lake
Temple, spiritual headquarters of their faith and newly familiar to many
viewers of the Olympics.
The temple isn't Mormon -- it's Hindu, as its onion domes and marble
deities make plain.
"I found them to be wonderful people who, in their wildest dreams, could
never afford to build what they wanted to," said Stanley Green, a local
leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, recalling his
first visit to the Spanish Fork Hare Krishna community.
There are approximately 2,000 Hindus in Utah.
Eventually the church donated $25,000 to the Sri Sri Radha Krishna
Temple effort. And hundreds of weekend volunteers started showing up to help
with the labor.
"We just asked what we could do," Mormon Eric Weight told The Dallas
Morning News.
"You find out they're not that much different than we are. They're
children of the Heavenly Father, too."
"They probably gave us 3,000 hours of volunteer time," said Hare Krishna
leader Caru Das. "In monetary terms that's enormous, and of course there
were benefits beyond money."
Suspicion and ignorance were swept away by contact and cooperation, Das
said.
And the sects discovered how alike they are in some respects. For
example, both ban drugs, alcohol, gambling, promiscuity, caffeine, tea and
cigarettes.
"We're pretty white bread in our own way," Das said.
---
I have to assume that the 'value' gained from helping other churches comes
from the missionary opportunities that result. It would be interesting to
see if anyone involved in these types of donations ends up joining the
church.

Noel

---Original Message---

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, October 27, 2002 1:48:30 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ZION] A Disturbing Contradiction

I don't believe there is any inconsistency or contradiction in Church
doctrine on the matter, but am becoming increasingly disturbed by what I
see as a growing inconsistency in the minds of the saints over the relative
merits of apostate religions and true Christianity as only practised by the
saints. Of course there is some truth in other denominations. So
what? Nobody has ever said otherwise. But the whole idea of a "true"
Church loses all meaning if we don't remember that for there to be a true
Church there have to be false churches. False churches teach false
doctrine. They do not lead their members towards Christ. On the contrary,
most of them so confuse their members with false teachings that they reject
our missionaries when otherwise they might have listened to them.

If it isn't a true Church, it is a false church. I should think that would
be obvious. The saints seem to be incapable of understanding the
difference between the false doctrine taught by other churches and the good
people who are misled by those doctrines. We need to learn to discern
between the various churches that people belong to and the people themselves


But no, every time I point out something wrong about the teachings of
another church, I get practically booed out of the house by protestations
that other churches have some truth. Did I ever deny it? They just don't
have priesthood. They don't have unpolluted doctrines. The do not have
the power to save. And if a person remains committed to them, they will be
damned for rejecting the servants of Christ and his gospel. A man who
lives and dies a Buddhist has as much chance of obtaining eternal life as a
Baptist who does the same. I say this keeping in mind that some Buddhists
join the Church, and so do some Baptists. But they are the only Buddhists
and Baptists we are going to be associating with in the Celestial Kingdom
if we are fortunate enough to end up there ourselves.

Broad is the path to destruction, but the narrow gate to the Celestial
Kingdom is the baptism performed by the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints. And there is no other way to get in. No one obtains
the Celestial Kingdom unless he becomes, dead or alive, a member of the
Church.

There seem to be a lot of people who are losing sight of this fundamental
teaching of the gospel.

John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an

Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

[Noel Bennion]

John,
Thank you for the response. It doesn't appear that this is a topic of
general interest to this group so I won't belabor any points. I find it
somewhat humbling that after many years in the church, I find myself asking
such simple questions. I have been searching the scriptures in an attempt to
understand the answers to these and other questions. These are not the type
of questions you can ask in Sunday School without getting the 'look' from
the instructor and receiving the pat seminary answer.  I have begun
cataloging each scriptural reference for these terms and will attempt to
prayerfully extract the meanings for these: gentile, house of Israel, Jew,
remnant of Jacob, children of men, and others. Hopefully that will help me
understand how this all fits together.

You mention that Gileadi said that the members of the church were gentiles.
Was that the reason he was ex'ed? If so, that is not a safe area to tread
(which is a question in itself). I recently found a quote by BY stating
emphatically that we are of the house of Israel and a similar strong
statement by WW that we are the gentiles. For that reason, I am focusing on
the scriptures for a clarification.

Timing is another consideration in this whole thing. That is why I asked the
question regarding the fulness of the the gentiles. There are several
scriptural references that allude to the times of the gentiles and the
fulness of the gentiles. These seem to mean that there is a time when the
Lord will remember his covenant with the house of Israel and 'defocus' the
gentiles.

Your response certainly helps me to understand that I am not 'up in the
night' for asking these questions. There are some difficulties that come
from a lack of understanding of these topics. I feel a strong need to get to
an answer so that I may better understand the messages in the scriptures for
whatever label is applicable to me.


Noel


---Original Message---

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Saturday, October 26, 2002 5:27:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

At 08:29 AM, Saturday, 10/26/02, Noel Bennion wrote:

>Perhaps you could help me out a little here with the answers to several
>questions:
>
>1) Who are the Gentiles?
>
>2) Who is the house of Israel?
>
>3) What does the fulness of the Gentiles mean?

Well, that is really the problem. Each of these terms has more than one
meaning depending on how it is used. For an example, a Gentile could be
anyone who isn't descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Or it could be
anyone who lives in one of the Gentile nations. The Gentile nations are
the Christian nations of Europe. The Book of Mormon uses this last meaning
for the most part. It says that the gospel will go first to the Gentiles
and then to the Jews. Well, it came first to Joseph Smith and other white,
Anglo-Saxon Mormons. So they must be the Gentiles referred to the in the
Book of Mormon. But Joseph Smith said that he was a pure Ephraimite, and
most Church members are of the half tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh. So in
one sense they are the children of Israel, and in another they are Gentile
because they can trace their lineages back to the Gentile nations of
Christian Europe.

The House of Israel today means one thing to Mormons, and another thing to
non-Mormons who consider our Bible the Word of God. Mormons generally
believe that anyone descended from Jacob whose name was changed to Israel
is the House of Israel. But in the rest of the world, the term House of
Israel is synonymous with the term Jew. While not all Jews are of the
tribe of Judah, only the Jewish people have kept their tribal affiliation
since ancient times. The the only House of Israel they know of are the
Jews. We Mormon believe that we are of the House of Israel and the Jews
are too. The rest of the world believes that Jews are the House of Israel.

Complicating this further, the Book of Mormon refers to the descendents of
Lehi as "Jews." And they were of the tribes of Ephraim (Lehi) and Manasseh
(Ishmael). And since the descendents of Lehi are Jews, and the modern day
Lamanites are descendent of Lehi, they must be Jews also. So perhaps that
prophecy is fulfilled that the gospel will be taken first to the Gentiles
(European-Americans) and then to the Jews (Lamanites).

A few years back there was a controversy over all of this. An article in
the Ensign written by Daniel Ludlow said that Church members were House of
Israel and not Gentiles. Avraham Gileadi, on the other hand, said that by
the usage in the Book of Mormon, members of the Church descended from
European ancestors were Gentiles. Who was right? Well, as I have studied
it out in my mind, Church members are either House of Israel or Gentiles
depending on the usage. In other words, I lean toward Gileadi and away
from Ludlow.

For what it is worth, because I am descended from Ephraim according to my
Patriarchal Blessing, I am

Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple

[Ronn Blankenship]

At 07:00 AM 10/27/02, Grampa Bill wrote:

At 08:44 PM, Saturday, 10/26/02, Gary Smith wrote:


According to Alma 29:8 and also Brigham Young, Pres Kimball and others,
there are many people called of God in other belief systems to teach a
level of truth. Those who teach a terrestrial law are doing so under
inspiration of the Light of Christ (and the Holy Ghost). Their calling to
preach and work is just as real as ours in this Church, it just doesn't
have all the saving ordinances or truths.

=
Grampa Bill comments:
   This is true. Martin Luther, the founder of Lutheranism and John 
Wesley, the founder of Methodism are pointed to as examples. However, can 
any one name a person living while the Fullness of the Gospel was on the 
earth who was called of God to teach a lesser truth?


I think it's possible, because there are people who are not yet ready to go 
all the way from wherever they are now to the Fullness of the Gospel in one 
step.  If they are honestly seeking the truth, I believe God will lead them 
to it in steps no bigger than they can handle.



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple

[Grampa Bill]

At 08:44 PM, Saturday, 10/26/02, Gary Smith wrote:


According to Alma 29:8 and also Brigham Young, Pres Kimball and others,
there are many people called of God in other belief systems to teach a
level of truth. Those who teach a terrestrial law are doing so under
inspiration of the Light of Christ (and the Holy Ghost). Their 
calling to
preach and work is just as real as ours in this Church, it just doesn't
have all the saving ordinances or truths.


=
Grampa Bill comments:
   This is true. Martin Luther, the founder of Lutheranism and John 
Wesley, the founder of Methodism are pointed to as examples. However, 
can any one name a person living while the Fullness of the Gospel was on 
the earth who was called of God to teach a lesser truth?

--
"Don't waste the atonement."
Sue Woodbury, Oct. 20, 2002

Love y'all,
Grampa Bill in Savannah

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^

Re: [ZION] The Jerusalem Temple

[Grampa Bill]

Gary Smith wrote:


Most Jewish religions now see Christ as a
righteous man who taught good. They respect him as a teacher of
righteousness. They just do not accept him as Messiah.
 

=
Grampa Bill asks:
   How can this be? If Jesus was not the Christ, the Son of God, then 
His entire life and His ministry in particular is built upon a lie. I 
see no way to respect Christ and His teachings other than to accept his 
Godhood.

--
"Don't waste the atonement."
Sue Woodbury, Oct. 20, 2002

Love y'all,
Grampa Bill in Savannah

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^