Re: [Zope-dev] who wants to maintain Zope 3?
On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 02:10, Tim Hoffman t...@zute.net wrote: We are using Zope 3 pretty much as it comes from zopeproject, and storm orm for a large part of the persistence layer (plus ZODB). I have to say I think it's great that somebody that does this finally is speaking up. There shurely are more than you, but they have been silent in teh discussions, and it's important that your viewpoint isn't lost. I'm also happy you seem to have gotten good answers on how to go forward. -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] who wants to maintain Zope 3?
On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 08:51, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote: I see myself rather as an application developer and conclude that Zope may no longer be adequate to build large applications on top of it -- applications that need to live and be maintained for many years to come. Well, the existing Zope releases will not disappear or go away. The worst that can happen for you as a Zope 2 developer is that 2.12 becomes the last release. Is that really a problem? But yes, the only developments in Zope 2 the last five years or so has been more inclusion of Zope Toolkit technologies. But without that Zope 2 would have stopped as 2.7, more or less. So if you don't use any of the component architecture, Zope 2 releases since 2.8 has been mostly pointless. And again: Is that a problem? And Zope 2.x will continue as long as people want it to. You are yourself amazingly well suited to fix bugs, as you are one of the Zope people who knows Zope 2 inside out. If you need new releases, there is no reason why there shouldn't be new relesases. In short, I'm not sure what you are worried about. -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Proposal: Align Zope 2 and Zope 3 permissions
On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 12:31, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: Thoughts? I haven't had my dead deeep down in the Zope 2 security for three years, so I'm a bit fuzzy on how it works, but all this sounds like a good step forward. +1 -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Don't have Zope 2 hard-specify its versions!
On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 08:56, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote at 2009-4-11 16:12 +0200: ... Does easy_install keep track of already installed dependencies and refuse to install it if it break dependencies? easy_install checks dependencies only at installation time -- for the egg that is installed (not for those that are already installed) . If yes, then i don't know, if no, then you can just install the version you want. We are in the no case. No, you just said above we were in the yes case. -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Don't have Zope 2 hard-specify its versions!
On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 17:26, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: No, you just said above we were in the yes case. No you didn't. My bad. We are in the no case. -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Don't have Zope 2 hard-specify its versions!
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 13:12, Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk wrote: How would this be done if the Zope 2 egg or meta-egg hard-specifies the versions? You can just install that egg that needs updating, no? I'm not sure... in worst case, you need to wait for update, just like you did before it was eggyfied. -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Don't have Zope 2 hard-specify its versions!
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 15:48, Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk wrote: You can just install that egg that needs updating, no? How, if I'm using buildout? I quote yourself: With buildout-only, it's easy, just override the versions in the versions section of the topmost buildout.cfg. How, if I'm using easy_install or pip? Does easy_install keep track of already installed dependencies and refuse to install it if it break dependencies? If yes, then i don't know, if no, then you can just install the version you want. in worst case, you need to wait for update, just like you did before it was eggyfied. No, before I could always stick a new version manually in lib/python of my instance. Why would you not be able to do that now? I evidently don't understand the problem. -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] naming Zope
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 01:36, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.org wrote: Grr. Way to end a bikeshed discussion. Now what are we going to drone on about? Wait, wait, it should be called Zope Platform! -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] naming Zope
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 09:23, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote: I will continue to speak of Zope 2 (not Zope Classic). Right. The classic/legacy renaming is only necessary if we were to move to Zope 4, which we aren't, or continue to talk about Zope 3, which we aren't. -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 08:55, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote: With my current experience, the Zope 3 way to handle skins is considerably more work then the previous CMF skinning. True, you have a separate namespace for views and thus avoid name clashes in edge cases -- but is this really worth the extra effort? Yes, without any doubt whatsoever. And when it comes to effort, you have a point. Zope 3 in itself is too fragmented, too low level and too XML-y. Grok solves that. Zope 3 was also too big and monolithic. The eggification process solved that (and made Zope3 pointless as an application server, and it became a toolkit/framework). And some central parts of Zope 3, in particular the publisher, are too complex. Repoze and Repoze.bfg solved that. That means that for most cases, except when you need Zope 2 compatibility, The Thing That Once Was Known as Zope 3 are now finally ready. Obviously there is not much point in porting projects, but if you start a new project, the extra work of learning Grok or repoze.BFG could very well be worth the effort. I love Zope 2 as well, although I forget sometimes, since I never work with Zope 2, I work with Plone. Which I don't love (but Plone 4 looks like I will love it again). But with the Zope Toolkit I can do everything I want to do with Zope 2, with less code and less magic handwaving, and less (un)expected problems. We who know Zope 2 can develop in it easily and without problems. But it WAS a pain to get to that point. Zope 3 had a completely different set of pains. IMO, Grok has a much lesser pain level. Yes, Zope 3 did kill off a lot of interest in Zope 2, and was a contributing factor to the fact that Zope 2 doesn't attract new developers. But it wasn't the only one. It was already losing mindshare because it was too painful to use, and Python people didn't like it. People went from Zope to Python, not the other way around. With a time machine, much could have been done differently. But it's too late now. Time has ran away from Zope 2, Zope 3 never took off. It's time to take the experiences and the vast codebase, and move forward. And I guess Zope Toolkit, Grok and BFG is that way forward. -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope-dev] naming Zope
Zope Toolkit is a good name. But so is Zope Framework. And honestly, it's more a framework than a toolkit. A toolkit is a collection of reasonably independent tools. OK, so Zope Framework is actually loads of frameworks, one for components, one for security one for web forms, and this and that. But they are also designed to work together, and therefore makes a sort of megaframework. OK, fair enough, Django calls itself a framework too. It is more specifically a high level web framework. Zope Framework is NOT a web framework and certainly not high level. It's an application framework. Grok and BFG are web frameworks in the sense of Django. Is it really a big enough problem to distinguish between an application framework like Zope, and a Web Framework like Django, so that we need to rename everything again? I don't think so. Zope Framework is clear name and already in use. Changing that name just because it's not the same type of Framework as Django seems weird. So I'm +0 on Zope Toolkit. But +1 on Zope Framework. It just makes more sense to me. //Lennart ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] naming Zope
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 23:07, Chris Rossi ch...@archimedeanco.com wrote: I can't believe no one's suggested Zope Mega, yet. It sounds stupid. The Zope Ultra Component Framework Toolkit, though, THAT's a name with panache! -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] naming Zope
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 17:40, Martijn Faassen faas...@startifact.com wrote: How to get out of that bind? We could consider renaming Zope 3. Assuming Zope 3 The Application Server is still going to exist, I think it should be renamed (I suggested Blue Bream). But I have so far seen no indication that anybody wants it, neither during both PyCon nor during the Zope 4 discussion. If we don't call Zope Framework 4.0, we'll be fine. We should call its first release 1.0 and there's no implication of a progression. This is a good point. Unfortunately it's hard to call the framework anything else than the Zope Framework, as it's made up mainly of modules called zope.*. :-) That would give us, based on my earlier suggestion, Zope Framework 1.0 - A Framework for building application servers. Zope 2, Grok and BFG - Application servers using the Zope Framework This is only mildly confusing. It can also only get better with time, as Plone seems to continue away from Zope 2 and onto the framework, which means we in the future may end up with Plone, Grok and BFG being app servers on the Zope Framework. I also think all applications should move over to using repoze by default. BFG already does so, of course, and Plone 4 is set to do so. Hopefully by Zope 2.13, the old publisher can be a horrid memory, and repoze.Zope2 be default. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] naming Zope
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 18:47, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: Could we just call it Zope Libraries? Whenever I see a description of what the Zope Framework is, it says a collection of libraries, so why not just call it that? Well, that's a bad description, it's more than just libraries, they fit together, and it's also a development style with the component architecture et al. Framework to many Python web people implies a runnable application server (the terms got conflated when Pylons and Django started calling themselves web frameworks). Oh, that's bad. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] dispatching zope.org's roles as a download source...
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:21, Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:14, Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk wrote: PyPI will work in exactly the same way as zope.org for non-eggified products: manual download. What I *would* worry about is non-egg distributions on PyPI causing problems for setuptools and its ilk... Wouldn't easy_install/buildout/etc just fail in those cases? Typically with a no setup.py found or something? I don't know, have you tried it? Only for Python 3 distributions, and that's what happened there. But point me to a non distutils distro for Python 2 on PyPI and I'll try. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Plone vs. Zope2 was: Re: naming Zope
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 05:34, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: Hanno Schlichting wrote: The current line of thinking for Plone is about this: Plone 4 will still run on Zope2. Plone 5 will run on Python 3.x and not depend on Zope2 anymore at all. We can all guesstimate on what kind of timeline that will mean. There isn't going to *be* a Zope3 to run on. Right. He didn't say that it would though. In this scenario, Plone would be one of the platforms using the Zope Framework, like Grok and BFG. Zope2 is the only game in town, as far as appservers go. So neither Grok nor BFG exist? :-) I don't know how you are thinking here. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] leaving zope.org to work...
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:16, Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote: On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 17:23, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: PyPI won't work for non-eggified products. Right, so they need to be eggified then, which is a Good Thing. :) I'm not saying they should be moved *now*. Just in the long run. If the product is still maintained and cared about, eggifying it and moving it to PyPI isn't that much work. The alternative is to make a new products directory on zope.org, which is of course completely possible. Well, I know what Andreas is planning to do is moving the whole thing to old.zope.org and then using rewrite rules to redirect any 404's from www.zope.org to there. Sure. But I don't really see it as necessary to keep old.zope.org around forever and ever. A couple of years, sure, preferably as read-only, and with a change in the templates to say that any content that should be preserved should be moved somewhere else, IMHO. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] leaving zope.org to work...
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 15:21, Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk wrote: Sure. But I don't really see it as necessary to keep old.zope.org around forever and ever. Some people do, and doing that means they're happy, so I'm happy :-) Fair enough. The correct path is I guess as always that those who want to keep it get to be responsible for maintaining it. Problem solved. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] dispatching zope.org's roles as a download source...
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:14, Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk wrote: PyPI will work in exactly the same way as zope.org for non-eggified products: manual download. What I *would* worry about is non-egg distributions on PyPI causing problems for setuptools and its ilk... Wouldn't easy_install/buildout/etc just fail in those cases? Typically with a no setup.py found or something? -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope] [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:34, Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote: Grok and Repoze is not mutually exclusive. For end users who pick one or the other, they are *are* mutually exclusive in that the users won't necessarily know (or care) that the other exists... I think you confuse Repoze and repoze.bfg. Grok can, and IMO should, run on top of Repoze. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 08:32, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote: Because members put there content (product implementations) still usable? Absolutely right. In the long run that should probably be moved over to PyPI though. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 17:23, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: PyPI won't work for non-eggified products. Right, so they need to be eggified then, which is a Good Thing. :) I'm not saying they should be moved *now*. Just in the long run. If the product is still maintained and cared about, eggifying it and moving it to PyPI isn't that much work. The alternative is to make a new products directory on zope.org, which is of course completely possible. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Source Code Repository
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 17:48, Marius Gedminas mar...@gedmin.as wrote: This is a very good point I'd forgotten about. However, currently the existing svn:externals all point to read-only svn:// URLs, and switching them to http:// would not change anything substantially. Nope, but switching then to https:// would. But switching to relative URLs would also solve them problem. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope] [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 08:32, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote: Because members put there content (product implementations) still usable? Absolutely right. In the long run that should probably be moved over to PyPI though. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Source Code Repository
My 2 cents: I like svn over https. It works reliably, and is easy to use, and externals work as expected, etcs. So I'm +1 on allowing https access. That said, svn+ssh tunnels svn over ssh, and if you are in a place where ssh doesn't work, you need to find the network admit and punch him in the face. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope] [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...
My preferred Zope-future would be: 1. The Zope Framework dependency cleanup project continues. When cleanup is deemed reasonably finished, we rename the framework Zope 4. 2. Zope 3 The Application server moves over to zope.pipeline or similar, and gets a new name, and becomes one of the application servers that run on the Zope Framework. I propose the name Blue Bream (another name for the fish Zope). Version can be 1.0 or 4.0, no matter. 3. Grok moves over either to Zope.pipeline or repose.bfg as publisher in Grok 2. 4. Zope 2 moves permanently over to a better publisher, possibly repoze,Zope2, or something based on zope.pipeline. We stick our heads into actually redoing the security with proxies, in a not necessarily completely backwards compatible way. This would be Zope 5, but the name is better as Zope Legacy Server. 5 or 4. That would leave us with Zope Framework v 4.0 or something, and four servers running on Zope Framework. Zope Legacy Server 4/5 (with Plone 5 on top), Blue Bream, BFG and Grok. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
2009/4/2 Tim Nash thedag...@gmail.com: If you really think zope 3 (or 4) can stand on it's own, just rename zope 2 to 'plone base'. That will cut down on the confusion. There are many more that uses Zope 2 besides Plone. But it is true, and also likely A Good Thing that Zope 2 doesn't get many new users nowadays except via Plone. The effort of slowly moving Plone more and more onto Zope 3 is therefore very important. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...
2009/4/3 Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk: Lennart Regebro wrote: 1. The Zope Framework dependency cleanup project continues. When cleanup is deemed reasonably finished, we rename the framework Zope 4. Oh, so Zope 4 is a run on from Zope 2? Eh... no. How do I upgrade from Zope 2 to Zope 3? Eh... what's your point? How about from 3.5 to 4? Should be reasonably easy. Bream 4.0 would be fine with me for that, I don't think there seems to be anyone who really cares about it anymore though... Possible. 3. Grok moves over either to Zope.pipeline or repose.bfg as publisher in Grok 2. Grok is Grok, Repoze is Repoze, lets leave them be and let them choose their own names... Grok and Repoze is not mutually exclusive. It cannot be called Zope int(x) for any value of x for the reasons that cause the current confusion. I think Zope Legacy 4 is a bit mean, I think there's plenty more life in the project if people want there to be. That was why I suggested Zope Classic (hey, it worked for Coke when they had to bring back their original product because of a snafu on the supposed replacement!) Sure, Zope Classic works too. I don't like Standard because it makes it sound like it's preferred. Bream 4 on top of Framework 4 Standard 4(which would include Framework 4) Plone 4 on top of Standard 4 Repoze and Grok on top of Framework 4 Yup. Sounds good to me. As usual, I don't think any decisions should be taken. This is just what I would like to see. People either do it or do not. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope-dev] Two small convenience suggestions for zope.interface and zope.component
2009/4/1 Marius Gedminas mar...@gedmin.as: I now also wonder if adapter()/implementer() would work when called with classes rather than functions...? Yes, in 2.6 and 3.0. Not with the current trunk of zope.interfaces, though, but in the future, sure. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Two small convenience suggestions for zope.interface and zope.component
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:25, Chris Rossi ch...@archimedeanco.com wrote: Additionally, if I was grokking Lennart correctly yesterday, __metaclass__ is going away, so the current metaclass implementation is going to need some rejiggering. What was unclear was whether a single implementation could support both =2.5 and =2.6. 2.5 doesn't support class decorators, so no. But the plan is that both implements(IFoo) and @implementor(IFoo) will be available under 2.6. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] PyCon?
I'm leaving soon, arriving this afternoon, staying at Crowne Plaza. I may be up for a drink this evening, or I may be sleeping, not sure. :) The Zope Open Space I'd prefer Friday or Sunday. Any opinion on that? -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Python3 and attribute annotations.
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 23:35, Dan Korostelev nad...@gmail.com wrote:
def hello(who:'name') - None:
... print('Hello, {0}!'.format(who))
...
hello.__annotations__
{'who': 'name', 'return': None}
Yup. So, it's stored on the function, not the class. Hence, it will not collide.
Might be confusing though.
--
Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista.
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
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Re: [Zope-dev] Python3 and attribute annotations.
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 08:10, Dan Korostelev nad...@gmail.com wrote: As I said before, even if python itself won't add __annotations__ to some callable objects, this thing may be done by third-party tools. Ah, I have would expected that to go on __call__ but you are right, that probably doens't make any sense, they should be on the object in that case. In any case, __whatever__ is nowadays wrong, and we might want to think about moving to something else. I personally don't like _z_whatever, but _whatever_ is to similar to __whatever__ and __whatever also has implications, and _whatever isn't magic enough, so unless we can think of something better... :) The it's the question if we want to start moving before going over to Python 3 or after. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] deprecating the deprecation system?
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 19:55, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote: The parameter was pointless in the first place. One and only one value for it worked -- the one that could be determined automatically. Which is why it was removed. :) (and also, I think there was a use case where the one calling the parameter *didn't* know the value. Five I think. Ah well) Thus, it was good to get rid of it -- just the deprecation warning was silly: instead, a value different from the only correct one should have resulted in an exception. True. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope] redirect timeout doesn't work
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 15:18, Dvir Bar-lev dvi...@puresight.com wrote: Hi just wanted to add something that I forgot to meantion. The problem I described only happenes on IE, on firefox it does the redirect even after I refresh the page manually So yet another IE bug then. You want a lot of timeouts and redirections and stuff in your application. Are you sure old-school HTML is the right way to do this? Sounds like an AJAX app could be more suitable. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Order of method calls of ZopePageTemplate
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 09:18, Analog Kid garlictrom...@gmail.com wrote: i want to make sure that a certain method gets called before anything else when the template gets rendered. Sooo...stick it first in the template! Strange question... -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Order of method calls of ZopePageTemplate
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 09:36, Analog Kid garlictrom...@gmail.com wrote: the reason i need to do it this way is that no page template must be modified ... so i cant call a py script from the template. Sure you can. You are somehow barking up the wrong tree here. Back down and explain what you are trying to do. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] session data object question
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 09:32, Dvir Bar-lev dvi...@puresight.com wrote: What I need is a way to know if we loaded the page as a result of pressing the button or as a result of refreshing the page, as I need to do different things in each case. There is no difference between a refresh and a normal page load. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope-dev] deprecating the deprecation system?
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 15:56, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote: The product_name parameter used to be mandatory -- thus all calls to ToolInit had to use it. Then, a means was found to derive it automatically from the context. The developper was so happy that he wanted all others immediately drop the parameter -- result: several dozens of deprecation warnings for each start -- in trivial cases, where the automatically derived information was identical to the explicitly provided I called out what a stupidity I agree that this deprecation warning is pointless. The parameter can just stay there and be ignored, no need to warn. But the description of the change is incorrect, the decision to ignore the parameter was for reason, not just because we could, even if I don't exactly remember what the reason was now. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-PAS] user login and roles
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 09:33, Dvir Bar-lev dvi...@puresight.com wrote: Hi all. I need help please, I downloaded the pas plugin for zope but I can’t find any documentation on how to use it. What I want to do is the following: I want to define 2 roles – ISP and Parent. I want my site visitors to arrive to a log in page that has 2 fileds – user name and password. What I want to do is to assign one of the roles above to each user based on the user name and the password en entered in the above form and direct him to the appropriate page, I tried to look in the internet but I can’t find any way of doing this. If there is a way to do it without using the pas plugin I would be happy with that too. Please help me, I’m utterly stuck and I don’t have a clue what to do. Tx in advance ___ Zope-PAS mailing list Zope-PAS@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-pas As mentioned elsewhere, PAS is overkill for this. You can assign roles to uses with the normal user folder. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-PAS mailing list Zope-PAS@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-pas
Re: [Zope-PAS] user login and roles
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:35, Dvir Bar-lev dvi...@puresight.com wrote: A user goes to the site, he see the log in screen that has 2 entry fields - user name and password. The user enteres the data and presses the submit button. Now I want to take what the user entered and see if I have the same user and password defined in acl_users folder, if so I want to give him the role that that user in the acl_users folder have. Yup, this is all automatic. And than based on that role direct him to the appropriate page Aha. So your questions are two: How can I have a HTML login page, and how can I redirect the user to different pages after login, based on the roles. PAS certainly helps you with this, as it has support for having HTML forms for login. Also, as Andreas mentioned, there is a product called CookieCrumbler that can help you with this without using PAS. So how do you use PAS? You start using PAS by replacing your current acl_user folder with the Pluggable Auth Service. In this you add plugins. The plugins do different things. The User Manager will store users and passwords. The ZODB Role Manager will store role assigments to users. The Cookie Auth Helper will enable you to have a login form. Create all these, enable them, fiddle around a bit. Then you probably need to ask more questions, and I won't know enough about PAS to answer, but somebody else probably will. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-PAS mailing list Zope-PAS@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-pas
Re: [Zope] trivial: hello world with filesystem based egg sources
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 23:21, David Zejda d...@atlas.cz wrote: And now, please, what to do now, to have a few python lines somewhere in the egg dir, which the zope would know how to deal with? The egg dir as you call it is a Python module, and you put Python code there. Zope knows how to deal with it, that is not the problem. What you need to do is get the Python code to deal with Zope. :) And on what url will be the hello world available then? That is completely up to you. :) The question now, is this Zope 3 or Zope 2? For Zope 3, you should probably get a book. http://worldcookery.com/ There was another book to in the beginning of Zope 3, but I don't know it has been updated. You could also, for Zope 3, opt to use Grok, which is a framework built on Zope 3 that makes Zope 3 easier: http://grok.zope.org/ For Zope 2, you can start here: http://docs.zope.org/zope2/zdgbook/source/ Then, you should probably buy the above book too. Zope 3 technologies are getting very common in Zope 2. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] how to check a user role with data entred by user?
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 08:07, Dvir Bar-lev dvi...@puresight.com wrote: K, ill try to explain in more detail. :) What I want to do is this: I create 2 roles in zope - manager and client for example. I than create 2 users - zoe and don. Zoe has password A and role manager and don has password B and role client. Now I go to the log in page of my site, it has 2 fields - username and password. What I want to do is this: If the user puts in the fileds zoe and A I want to be able to identify the user zoe with the role manager You already have. You gave Zoe the role Manager, you say. OK. Done. You don't need to do anything more. I suspect you still need to explain, not what you are trying to do, but what you are trying to achieve. Explain the usecase. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope2 + Twisted
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 23:51, Peter Sabaini pe...@sabaini.at wrote: Hm, the default zope.conf says twisted should be supported as an HTTP server replacement -- is that a bug? If it uses the word supported that is a bug, yes. In any case, as mentioned, it does not solve your problem. But setting zserver-threads to 1 does. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3 app server dying? (was Re: the Zope Framework project)
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 14:15, Gary Poster gary.pos...@gmail.com wrote: On Mar 5, 2009, at 6:38 AM, Hermann Himmelbauer wrote: And I am personally interested if the Zope 3 app server is something that's dying in favour for other projects (Plone/Grok) or is actively used. Not clear on what you mean by the app server. If you mean zope.publisher, no, I don't think it is dying. I guess he means as a separate release. And I think the answer to that also is no. Those who currently use Zope 3 as a platform without basing it on Grok or Repoze.bfg are likely to continue to do so for quite some time, and they need a separate release. I don't think The Zope 3 app server is likely to die any more than the Zope 2 app server. Now, in five years, maybe. But then again, by then we could all have suffered an alien invasion. :-D -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] deprecating the deprecation system?
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 17:35, Martijn Faassen faas...@startifact.com wrote: * I've had good experience in the Grok project with just noting changes that might break code in the upgrade notes for Grok and telling people how to fix it. Using documentation more background can be provided and it can become a lot more clear what to do. True, but Grok-users will, thanks to it's new pre-1.0 status be more prepared for changes. Just an observation... I don't really have an opinion on the actual question. But I will talk out loud here: I think the goal, allowing third-party modules to support at least two versions of the framework at once, where commendable, but it may very well be that the work this caused was more than what it would be have been to support several versions by conditional imports etc in the third-party modules. On the other hand, if you have say, Zope 3.4 depends on zope.foobar 3.4.x, and you in zope.foobar 3.5.0 make a BBB-breaking refactoring without deprecation, and you then in 3.5.1 introduce a new, unrelated feature, it means you can't use that new feature in Grok while Grok still depends on Zope 3.4, which is a shame. But maybe not a problem. Deprecating would allow you to do that. It's probably an impossible task to have both backwards compatibility and still have innovation without loads of old cruft in the code. It becomes a balancing act. I don't know where to put that balance. Maybe we could have deprecation but for much shorter time. Say, between releases of the framework? Or we could simply not deprecate, but encourage backwards compatibilities, at least until a new major version is released of the framework? -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-PAS] a question about documentation
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:53, Dvir Bar-lev dvi...@puresight.com wrote: I’m new to zope and this plugin, It was recommended to use this plugin for log in procedures and custom authorization but I can’t seem to find any documentation on this product. If anyone can direct me to where I can find such documentation of how to use this plug in and examples I would really appreciate it. What I want to do is to define some roles in the zmi and than run a form that th user will enter in it the role name and the password and than check that against the roles defined in the ZMI to see which if he entered the right password. Well, normally you call the role username, and this is supported with the standard user handling in Zope, you don't need PAS for that. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-PAS mailing list Zope-PAS@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-pas
Re: [Zope] how to check a user role with data entred by user?
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 09:21, Dvir Bar-lev dvi...@puresight.com wrote: What I did was this, I created a folder in the ZMI and there I created a user folder(acl_users), in the user folder I defined 2 new roles. Now, I have a log in form where the user fills out user name and password, I want to check if the data he entered matches 1 of the roles I defined in the ZMI . I can’t find any info or example how to do it, not on the web nor in the documentation. This is a classic case of you not telling is what you want to do. Why do you want to check if the data he enters matches on of the roles? You do that with if entered_data in (role1, role2): which I suspect isn't what you are asking at all. :) Tell us what you are trying to achieve. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope2 + Twisted
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 18:59, Peter Sabaini pe...@sabaini.at wrote: So, I'd need the twisted reactor and libraries running in the Python VM that runs Zope. Which should be no problem except I suspect that I shouldn't be using the (threaded) ZServer then, because I think that would mess with twisted (which is not threadsafe for the most part). Well, then you could probably set the ZServer to only use one thread. That means you need many ZServers with a load balancer in front instead. I thought if I'd switch to the twisted http server implementation that would take care of that -- no threaded ZServer, no problem. Except that doesn't seem to work as advertised, since the zope.app.twisted package is not present, and the one on PyPI seems to be geared towards Zope3, AFAICT. I'm pretty sure the Zope2 implementation doesn't use zope.app.twisted. However, the Zope 2 implementation is again not thread safe, and will only work with one thread per server, so you don't actually gain anything in using it. Besides, I don't think anyone actually used it after I implemented it. Which is why it's still marked as experimental, and would probably best be removed again. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 09:21, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: To the extent we can discourage the formation of the one-big-group-to-rule-them-all by encouraging the formation of smaller groups, I think it's a good idea. But in reality, I think nothing needs to be done: group-forming will always be a self-selecting process. Well, at least we should try this first, I agree with that. No, we want Zope 3.4 to have one set of modules with one API, and Grok 1.0 and Zope 2.12 to use exactly the same. And then a Zope 3.4 with a Grok 1.1 (or something) and a Zope 2.13. So we DO want lockstep and to use the same major KGS over all these versions. At least I do I don't see why this must result in parts that should die being left undead. This just seems like a blindingly obvious antigoal to actually breaking apart the software into more discrete bits using eggs. Why not just stick with a huge tarball release or one single egg if it all has to be versioned through time to 99% of its consumers as one giant collection of software treated as a unit? But it doesn't have to be treated as a unit. I don't know what you mean with version through time to 99% of its customers. To me having releases of modules and releases of sets of modules is orthogonal and does not contradict each other. Then again, if Repoze doens't want to be a part of The Zope Framework users but always make their own set of modules, that will admittedly lessen the purpose of it, as the minimalistic attitude of Repoze.bfg would work as a good test of what should be in the framework in the first place. Right. No one except people who've already bought in to the notion of Zope software as one huge pile will benefit from the lockstep centralized planning. I have the feeling that either you or me have completely misunderstood the proposal, because I don't think you are talking about the same proposal as me. Could we also agree that this would tend to result in better dependency partitioning (X depends on Y, I don't need Y, I just need X, let's fix that)? I don't see how these are related. When components are not treated as one giant pile, and it's expected that you should be able to use pieces of the pile selectively without buying in to some unrelated software, dependency management becomes far more brutal and realistic. Yes. And I still do not see how this is related to the proposal. It is expected that you should be able to use pieces of the pile selectively, and it will continue to be expected. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:04, Hermann Himmelbauer du...@qwer.tk wrote: What I don't see in your proposal is, how these subset-groups would be coordinated, which leads to the following: - How would these groups be formed? If there's nobody who encourages people to do so, They will be formed by people grouping together to work on a piece of software, if such a group is necessary. - Higher level package/groups may have a hard life in case basic packages/groups are not coordinated and all go their own way. Then these higher level groups will help coordinate the lower level packages. - How does some foreigner know, if a package is actively supported, umaintaned, deprecated etc.? How does he know, what packages exist, what they are good for and the like? For instance, I yesterday wrote that I use lovely.remotetask, then I was asked on the list why I did not use the (maybe better) zc.async package. Know why? I did not know that it existed. - I think, Zope 3 is not only about some seperate packages, but about a complete programming experience. Thus there needs to be some integrating force, that draws together all these packages, writes some documentation / tutorial / website etc. - Newbies won't be attracted by single packages. Instead, they want something complete. Who would be interested in Plone if it would consist of various packages that people would have to draw together by themselves, without decent documentation? To my mind, one key point is attracting more users. And that can only be done if we try to view things from an external, newbie-perspective. Some Ruby on Rails / Java / Turbogears programmer will only be attracted by some big picture but probably not by a collection of some subpackages. So, my impression is that there is a need for some steering group, that will, however, encourage people to form groups around packages and maintain them. The steering group would not and could not help with any of these problems. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:56, Hermann Himmelbauer du...@qwer.tk wrote: Am Mittwoch 04 März 2009 10:25:19 schrieb Lennart Regebro: On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:04, Hermann Himmelbauer du...@qwer.tk wrote: What I don't see in your proposal is, how these subset-groups would be coordinated, which leads to the following: - How does some foreigner know, if a package is actively supported, umaintaned, deprecated etc.? How does he know, what packages exist, what they are good for and the like? For instance, I yesterday wrote that I use lovely.remotetask, then I was asked on the list why I did not use the (maybe better) zc.async package. Know why? I did not know that it existed. [...] The steering group would not and could not help with any of these problems. Why? Can you elaborate? Who/what group woud play that central/integrating role? Maybe we have different perceptions of a steering group, but my impression was that this group would see the above points as their key topics. I don't think it's possible, and it seems to me to be a rather strange idea to have a group keep track of all the packages in the Zope world and somehow categorize them by quality. And it is in any case in no way even remotely connected to the group Martijn proposed and has been discussed in this thread. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 17:48, Martijn Faassen faas...@startifact.com wrote: Note that the Zope Steering group is not about packages that are not in the framework, so if lovely.remotetask isn't there, it can say little. Which is exactly my point. It surely isn't at the moment, and I don't see that it should be any time soon. What Hermann suggested is somebody that keeps track of all Zope software modules and tells him which is good and which is bad. That's not what you suggested, and as mention, I don't think it's even possible, and definitely not a good idea. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 18:03, Martijn Faassen faas...@startifact.com wrote: I'd like there to be someone who can make this decision and I'd like this someone to usually make *positive* decisions that work towards resolving the underlying issue, while coordinating with everybody that is impacted by this decision. But we know pretty much who is impacted by this, and the people with enough gravitas to be able to say Yay or Nay to these sorts of refactoring. And they are all on this list. And if there was a Steering Group, most of them would need to be on that group. If it's impossible for these people to agree when discussing on this mailing list today, why would the suddenly agree on this mailing list if we call them The Zope Framework Steering Group? I really don't understand that. I think it is WAY more likely that we get agreement and come forward if we first of all stop having the internet between us. We all know how easy it is to misunderstand intentions and tone of voices on mailing lists as compared to real life. And if it *still* is impossible for these people to agree, then I can't see the Steering Group working either, and then we need a new dictator. But I don't think that's needed, because the technical disagreements we have here are so minor, and seems mostly based in massinderstindung. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 18:27, Martijn Faassen faas...@startifact.com wrote: If it's impossible for these people to agree when discussing on this mailing list today, why would the suddenly agree on this mailing list if we call them The Zope Framework Steering Group? I really don't understand that. Two answers: * they wouldn't all be on the steering group Why not? They are the people who should have a say, and they are the people most likely to be able to actually implement the decisions. * the steering group is *tasked* with coming to a single answer that is recorded. And implement it? -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 09:13, Christian Theune c...@gocept.com wrote: For some reason the argument evades me: People randomly doing stuff will end in good things. People (trying) to thoughtfully organize won't. It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact. No. The steering group should not have backroom discussions. They should act as open as possible. I think of it as a catalyst. The operative here is *should*. Compare that to *will*. These are different words. What the steering group *should* do and what they *will* do is not the same thing. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 09:21, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: If anything, we started out with too little process and found there were gaps we had to plug. Ah. Now, THIS I like. Let's focus on this: Start out with as little process and as few officialisms as possible. And I don't see that a steering group is as little as possible. If it turns out to be necessary, we add it then. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:53, Hermann Himmelbauer du...@qwer.tk wrote: My impression (from an external perspective) is that Zope Corporation did just that for Zope 2/3, but nowadays tries to give this role to the community. No, I don't think we ever tried that. I think we should. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 13:04, Roger Ineichen d...@projekt01.ch wrote: You can also call this anticipation the oposit of participation :) The big questions now is, do we like to merge this good things back to the zope core or do we like to stay with different packages because we can't find an agreement what we like to do. Just to be completely clear: I do absolutely think we should merge as much goodness back as possible. I also agree with everything Martijn Faassen said. Except, I do not think a steering group is necessary to achieve these goals, and that in fact there is a significant risk that is ends up hindering them. I thought I could organize freedom. How Scandinavian of me --Björk: Hunter. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 13:33, Hermann Himmelbauer du...@qwer.tk wrote: Hmmm, I have the slight feeling that your opinions are not that far away. Of course not. This is, as aways, just a question of loudly agreeing. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 07:52, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: Tather than reply in kind here, let me summarize: I'm glad we agree more than we disagree, and I apologize if I've attributed to you beliefs that you don't have. It's heartening to hear that you're in favor of most of the things I'm also in favor of. But we do have real differences in opinion I think. I'd rather be constructive than obstructionist here: at the end of each item below I ask for an opinion based on a suggestion. 1) I'm not in favor of a single steering group for the *entirety* of all Zope software. We've tried a similar thing in the past (via the foundation structure); it didn't work and I'm not sure how we'd expect things to turn out any differently this time. Instead, perhaps the focus of groups should be on some much smaller subset of Zope-related software (e.g. the zope.interface+zope.component group, the zope.schema group, the ZODB group, etc). Could we consider this? It's better certainly, but isn't this small enough in itself that these groups will form naturally by whoever is working on it? 2) I'm also not in favor of a giant lockstep set of software versions shared between notional releases Zope 3.5, Grok, and Zope 2.12. I can only see this as continuing our mistakes of old by trying to treat some collection of software as Zope as opposed to letting parts of it survive or die on their own based on merit; it'd be more effective to just let each framework use (or disuse!) whatever versions of stuff that work best for it. That's why the software is broken out into individual components in the first place; we should encourage diversity in component usage. Instead of trying to legislate and bless some set of components as a version, we should just work to make each piece better and worthwhile to use independently; it's value would be in its actual usefulness rather than some belief that it works well with the other components in the version. I'm pretty sure Zope 2, Zope 3 and Grok wants to go in lockstep if possible. I'm just pondering the nightmare of working having say Zope 3.4 with one API, and Zope 3.5 with a subtyly different API, and Grok 1.0, with yet another subtly different API and Grok 1.1 with another subtly different API and Zope 2.12 with yet another subtly different API and Zope 2.13 with yet another subtly different API. Urgh. No, we want Zope 3.4 to have one set of modules with one API, and Grok 1.0 and Zope 2.12 to use exactly the same. And then a Zope 3.4 with a Grok 1.1 (or something) and a Zope 2.13. So we DO want lockstep and to use the same major KGS over all these versions. At least I do I don't see why this must result in parts that should die being left undead. If Repoze.bfg doesn't want to lockstep, the Zope2/Zope3/Grok lockstep would not pose a problem for Repoze, would it? Then again, if Repoze doens't want to be a part of The Zope Framework users but always make their own set of modules, that will admittedly lessen the purpose of it, as the minimalistic attitude of Repoze.bfg would work as a good test of what should be in the framework in the first place. Could we at least agree that lockstep versioning of a huge set of Zope eggs to be shared across many frameworks is not optimal for the long term Well, since it's shared by many frameworks, I'm not sure it would be huge. But that's a matter of taste of course. But in any case, through this discussion, I must admit that I not not understand why this would pose problem. and that it would be better if each framework could pick and choose whatever components and versions it actually needed? It can. These are not mutually exclusive. A central KGS for the core framework does not exclude you making your own KGS, neither does it mean you can't release each module separately. Could we also agree that this would tend to result in better dependency partitioning (X depends on Y, I don't need Y, I just need X, let's fix that)? I don't see how these are related. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope] Traversal and five
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 15:50, Miles mi...@jamkit.com wrote: In Zope 2.9.9, is there a way to register a traversal adapter and if so how? I've googled for examples, but haven't found anything pertinent. I'm not clear where to find the API for the adapter, and also if this is used in as old a zope as 2.9.9. Well, there was a five:traversable statement in Zope 2.9, but I don't exactly remember what it did, anyone else remember? But Zope 2.10 contained the refactoring to have a more Zope3-style traversal, so it may very well be that it isn't possible in 2.9, I don't remember the details. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
Quick Summary: More committees: -1 Everything else: +lots. - I like renaming Zope3, the libraries to The Zope Framework. It makes sense. That part doesn't even need to be official, we can just start calling it this, and those who doesn't like it can call it Zope3 the libraries, and we'll se who wins. :) Democracy at it's best. - This renaming only needs to be official we make KGS releases of it. - KGS releases may be useful (this is for consumers to decide, so it's really the controllers/releasemanager of Zope2, Zope, Grok, Repoze that can say if this is needed or not, and not me). - A steering group for the framework? Euhm? I don't know. I think release managers are needed, and I think a steering group is going to grow out of the community. Having an offical steering group tends to mean that if they don't do anything nothing gets done. It's a bigger risk that the steering group becomes a speed bump than anything else. So -1 on that. So, how to make sure everybody is on the same boat? Well, I think the Plone Strategic Planning Summit 2008 showed the way there. Lets just get all relevant parties into one room and talk loudly an wave their arms around and then go out for beer. Works lurlvely! No steering committee needed. If we still want more structure, we'll get somebody to force us to stick colored dots on big papers on the walls. That whole thing was awesome. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 00:05, Martijn Faassen faas...@startifact.com wrote: Hi there, Lennart Regebro wrote: - A steering group for the framework? Euhm? I don't know. I think release managers are needed, and I think a steering group is going to grow out of the community. Having an offical steering group tends to mean that if they don't do anything nothing gets done. It's a bigger risk that the steering group becomes a speed bump than anything else. So -1 on that. I don't think whether anyone noticed, but currently we don't actually have any clear leadership for Zope 3 development. Discussions often end up in deadlock and then nothing happens. Sure. But that doesn't mean a steering group is the right solution. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 00:16, Martijn Faassen faas...@startifact.com wrote:
Who is going to make that decision to encourage this? Allow this? You?
Me? Who? Right now, *nobody* is making such decisions and nobody can
properly get away with saying they allow it. Leadership is a way to get
out of it.
I think open source in general has shown two things:
1. Communities can mostly take decisions without having official
authorities to do so. This is hyper democratic.
2. When they can't, usually committees can't either. In those cases
somebody with a deciding vote is needed. This isn't democratic at all,
but efficient.
I think we should think about have offical groups, but for clear
tasks. Such as a Zope 3.6 Release Task Force as a hypothetical
example. It needs to be more than just Stephan Richter. But it should
be for a small, well defined specific task, and they are responsible
not for steering, but for kicking ass! (Their own or others. [So
things get done, you see. {Small joke there. Wasn't very funny was it?
Ah well.}])
+1, though a simple discouraging of utterance can't accomplish it by
itself. What you need is active leadership that encourages such
experimentation.
I don't know about that. I agree with you that there hasn't been
active leadership for a while. But look what has happened without this
active leadership.
* We have two cool new Zope 3 based frameworks. One which throws out
the whole concept of ZCML for doing configuration by radical code
introspection, and as a result making the Zope Framework immensely
more accessible. And another one which experiments with revamping the
way Zope publishes things, and a related effort of rewriting the whole
publisher. Both frameworks have during these experimentation reached
big audiences and gained widespread if still experimental acceptance
in the community.
* Zope 2 has been eggified.
* Buildout has totally massacred all other forms of deployment of Zope projects.
I think experimentation has been if anything more wild than any time
before in my life as a Zopista. I don't think active leadership is
needed to encourage experimentation. I think all that is needed it
what we already have: A less monolithic framework where you can do
wild stuff, together with some seriously smart and wild people.
And we don't need leadership to say which of the experiments to make
non-experimental. That will come automatically. We do need leadership
for making decisions where the community ends up 50/50. In those
cases, most committees will as well. And no, a 3 against 4 vote in a
committee is not a success.
Who decides to kill something off?
If it doesn't get maintained, is dead. I guess you want somebody to
make it official. I'm not sure it's necessary in a component based
reality. With Zope 2 eggified for example, ZClasses gets a separate
module, and it lives as long as somebody maintains it. It's then just
a matter of deciding if it should be a part of the release or not,
which the release manager(s) decide.
Who decides we should have a documentation website for a widely used
component.
Those who writes the documentation in question. :)
To people who are suggesting we don't need a steering group nor a name
for the Zope Framework, please answer the following questions:
* how will the community make hard decisions where lots of people
disagree?
How does the steering committee make hard decisions where lots of
people disagree? If we can't get a serious consensus on something, and
it MUST be decided, then we have a problem no matter what we do. The
traditional open source solution is a benevolent dictator. If that's
not decided, then in worst case have a vote amongst committer members.
How often has this been a problem the last couple of years?
* who reminds us of necessary tasks and directions we're going into?
Sometimes the community collectively decides on moving forward.
Sometimes it doesn't. Are we really maintaining our issue tracker well, say?
No, but then a person should get some sort of responsibility for that.
Note: A person. Not a committee. A committee means a bunch of people
are responsible, which is the same thing as saying that nobody is.
Yeah, yeah , I know. My answer is all peace and love and fluffy
kittens and everybody does whatever they want, but amazingly, it tends
to work! :-) Freedom baby yeah!
--
Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista.
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Zope-dev] the Zope Framework project
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 04:13, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder what Lennart's solution would be too... Taking a page out of Plone's history: I was evidently unclear: My solution is in three parts: 1. Areas that need somebody responsible should get one. We need somebody to bug people about bugs in the bug tracker. That should be one person, for example. Responsibilities need to be well defined and individual. There isn't anybody called Someone here, so if Someone has to do it, that doesn't get done. 2. To get things done release-wise, I think it would be good to have a release-team for each release. And that would reasonable be different teams for Zope2 and Zope 3, and possibly even for The Zope Framework, obviously most likely with personnel overlaps. 3. To steer, and keep the community on track, I think regular meetings of people in real life will beat any steering group, all hands down. This would best happen at the same time as a conference, and either the Plone conference or PyCon or Europython. I think this will give us enough steering. We aren't as many people as for example Plone or Python. Maybe, if we get everybody on track, we will be, and then we'll have to rethink. But currently the people involved, and the people that need to be steered are so few we can fit them all into one room at a time. And then I do not see why would would need a steering group. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [ZWeb] new.zope.org still in the works?
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 20:21, Alex Clark acl...@aclark.net wrote: Thanks guys, that's too bad. new.zope.org was Purdy™ (pretty). In any event, I think I understand the micro sites approach (divide and conquer) but where does that leave zope.org? As the main portal to the other sites. Overviews and links. I am also very interested in cleaning up the mess on zope.org. So if I could contribute in some way to upgrading and cleaning up the current Plone 1 site (I assume from http://zope.org/help) that would be my preference. No, junk it. There is too many special products and other stuff. We should keep it around as old.zope.org for a year so people can move content they need. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [Zope-dev] Bespin - a new hope for Zope 2 TTW development ?!
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 14:33, Baiju M mba...@zeomega.net wrote: Hi, I wonder whether new development patterns are going to emerge after this :) https://bespin.mozilla.com/ It is definitely something that can replace the Zope 2 TTW pattern with a Zope3 TTW pattern. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 08:46, Baiju M mba...@zeomega.net wrote: This will not make any change in dependency graph unless zope.location become a namespace package. Yeah, that was what I was thinking, but I just realized that it might be tricky to have both a zope.location and a zope.location.interfaces. I haven't tried. Anyway, it was just an idea. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 04:05, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.org wrote: Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 24 February 2009, Shane Hathaway wrote: Brainstorming deeper: we could apply a naming convention where the specification package is named with the suffix spec, so zope.location would be split into zope.location and zope.locationspec. what about zope.ilocation? Maybe. I'd lean toward zope.locationspec because it would appear right after zope.location in a sorted list, making it more apparent that they are related. zope.location.interfaces? -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Overhauling the Zope 2 presentation on zope.org
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:14, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: Please go make this happen if you can. It's very important. I can't anymore. As far as I can see, it's a question of - setting up a server, I would recommend a Plone site with the new Zope theme. - creating a zodb.zope.org DNS record and pointing it at that Zope site. - pasting in the content. - giving zodb people manager access to the plone site. I can not technically do any of that, as I don't have a server to put it on, no access to the Zope.org dns and no content. The rest I can do. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:27, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote: As I will make it with ZClasses, I will participate outside your circles. Thus, you may dictate and I fight your dictatorship With the revolutionary eggification of the masses that is underway the dictatorship has ended. Zope 2.12 is a libertarian meritodemocracy. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:37, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: With the revolutionary eggification of the masses that is underway the dictatorship has ended. Zope 2.12 is a libertarian meritodemocracy. Well, at least if you have svn access. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Overhauling the Zope 2 presentation on zope.org
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:59, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: We Yes. But not *I*. And you asked if *I* could get it done. :) Perhaps you meant if I could nag people into doing it. I doubt that I could. I'm not good at making people do things for free. :) I think the way your formulated this is indicative of the problems. It's a case of Somebody is not working here. I.e. This should be done or Somebody needs to do X. Well, there isn't anybody called Somebody here, so as long as Somebody needs to do it, it won't get done. :) This is one of the common obstacles of committee work, and it seems zope-web unfortunately got a dose of it. Maybe we are getting out of the slump thanks to Andreas, but if not I again suggest the Zope Foundation appoints a Web Tsar with full access to everything that gets completely free hands to do whatever he wants (after the foundation has taken a backup of everything) and see what happens. :) I'm also lazy, which are the reasons I haven't volunteered for the role of Web Tsar already, as being bad at getting people to work for free would mean I have to do everything myself, and I'm too lazy for that. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Overhauling the Zope 2 presentation on zope.org
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 14:11, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO, the way the Zope community is structured, it's very hard to get people to contribute this kind of thing. I hope things are different now. The work that happened with the Zope book is encouraging, for example. However, most people who care enough about Zope to want the website to be better are too busy or too much into coding. Unlike, say, Rails, there isn't a large community of fanboys who want to contribute and have time on their hands and the right soft skills. This is absolutely true. I'll put up Zope.org as a possible discussion item for the OpenSpace, maybe somebody has some bright idea. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [ZWeb] [Zope-dev] Overhauling the Zope 2 presentation on zope.org
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:14, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: Please go make this happen if you can. It's very important. I can't anymore. As far as I can see, it's a question of - setting up a server, I would recommend a Plone site with the new Zope theme. - creating a zodb.zope.org DNS record and pointing it at that Zope site. - pasting in the content. - giving zodb people manager access to the plone site. I can not technically do any of that, as I don't have a server to put it on, no access to the Zope.org dns and no content. The rest I can do. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] [Zope-dev] Overhauling the Zope 2 presentation on zope.org
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:59, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: We Yes. But not *I*. And you asked if *I* could get it done. :) Perhaps you meant if I could nag people into doing it. I doubt that I could. I'm not good at making people do things for free. :) I think the way your formulated this is indicative of the problems. It's a case of Somebody is not working here. I.e. This should be done or Somebody needs to do X. Well, there isn't anybody called Somebody here, so as long as Somebody needs to do it, it won't get done. :) This is one of the common obstacles of committee work, and it seems zope-web unfortunately got a dose of it. Maybe we are getting out of the slump thanks to Andreas, but if not I again suggest the Zope Foundation appoints a Web Tsar with full access to everything that gets completely free hands to do whatever he wants (after the foundation has taken a backup of everything) and see what happens. :) I'm also lazy, which are the reasons I haven't volunteered for the role of Web Tsar already, as being bad at getting people to work for free would mean I have to do everything myself, and I'm too lazy for that. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] [Zope-dev] Overhauling the Zope 2 presentation on zope.org
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 14:11, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO, the way the Zope community is structured, it's very hard to get people to contribute this kind of thing. I hope things are different now. The work that happened with the Zope book is encouraging, for example. However, most people who care enough about Zope to want the website to be better are too busy or too much into coding. Unlike, say, Rails, there isn't a large community of fanboys who want to contribute and have time on their hands and the right soft skills. This is absolutely true. I'll put up Zope.org as a possible discussion item for the OpenSpace, maybe somebody has some bright idea. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [Zope-dev] Overhauling the Zope 2 presentation on zope.org
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 18:49, Andreas Jung li...@zopyx.com wrote: because of the failure of the new.zope.org project I would like to put the hat on for reorganizing the Zope 2 presentation on zope.org. The goal is having up some pages with the downloads, basic pointers and links with the final release of Zope 2.12 later this year. This is, as others have pointed out, great stuff! There are basically two options: create a dedicated microsite (similar to grok.zope.org) or follow the Zope 3 approach on wiki.zope.org. Unless someone provides enough resources in helping, I would like to go with the wiki approach since it is much easier to handle. Volunteers that have the same interest in Zope 2 and getting this thing done are invited to join the effort. Based on the new.zope.org experienced I am interested in effective work and not so much in interested in discussions about briefs, mission statements and other less important stuff :-) I absolutely agree. About wiki/vs microsite, I also would hope for a microsite. Wikis are good for community generated docs/howtos and stuff, which we already have for Zope2. And a pretty good one at that: http://wiki.zope.org/zope2/Zope2Wiki Also, there is alos now the Zope2Book and Zope Developers guide on docs.zope.org, looking good there. But we do need a Zope2 overview site, that explains what it is and how to get started, and has links to all of the above places. I assume that's what you intend to create? A similar site should be created for Zope 3, and then we should trash the current Zope org for a new frontpage that basically only points to the different microsites. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Come to the Zope Sprint @ PyCon 2009
There will be a Zope + Friends sprint @ PyCon 2009, to work on Zope and Zope-related technologies like Grok, Repoze, Deliverence etc. http://us.pycon.org/2009/sprints/projects/zope/ Because of the Repoze overlap with WSGI based frameworks we plan to work closely together with the WSGI/Pylons/TurboGears/Repoze sprint happening at the same time, so this will be a supercool webframwork sprint! Everyone is welcome! It is not necessary to sign up beforehand, but it is recommended for planning purposes. Either put your name on the wiki-page yourself, or mail me and I will add you. http://us.pycon.org/2009/sprints/projects/zope/ For general information on the sprints, see: http://us.pycon.org/2009/sprints/ or ask me. Help out / Learn / Have fun! -- Lennart Regebro http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope] Come to the Zope Sprint @ PyCon 2009
There will be a Zope + Friends sprint @ PyCon 2009, to work on Zope and Zope-related technologies like Grok, Repoze, Deliverence etc. http://us.pycon.org/2009/sprints/projects/zope/ Because of the Repoze overlap with WSGI based frameworks we plan to work closely together with the WSGI/Pylons/TurboGears/Repoze sprint happening at the same time, so this will be a supercool webframwork sprint! Everyone is welcome! It is not necessary to sign up beforehand, but it is recommended for planning purposes. Either put your name on the wiki-page yourself, or mail me and I will add you. http://us.pycon.org/2009/sprints/projects/zope/ For general information on the sprints, see: http://us.pycon.org/2009/sprints/ or ask me. Help out / Learn / Have fun! -- Lennart Regebro http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope-dev] opensp...@pycon 2009 about Zope/Repoze/Grok/Deliverence etc.
Well, by now we definitely have enough people to have a fruitful discussion, so I feel happy to say that it definitely will happen. I created a PyCon wikipage if people want to add anything, with the suggested title State of Zope, I hope that title is OK. http://us.pycon.org/2009/openspace/StateOfZope/ See you there! ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] opensp...@pycon 2009 about Zope/Repoze/Grok/Deliverence etc.
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 13:32, Baiju M mba...@zeomega.net wrote: I am also coming to PyCon this year :) Excellent! Is there any plan for Zope sprint ? Nothing official yet, but I'm sure there will be sprinting done. There seems to be more Zope people this year than last. There was talk about having a security sprint at PyCon, but after security seemed to be in a good state already that petered out, I think. We can announce a Big Fat Zope sprint and put up a wiki page for that too, and people can add topics they want to sprint on. Could be a good idea? /me was never been outside India. India is big enough in itself. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] opensp...@pycon 2009 about Zope/Repoze/Grok/Deliverence etc.
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 14:09, Baiju M mba...@zeomega.net wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 13:32, Baiju M mba...@zeomega.net wrote: Is there any plan for Zope sprint ? Nothing official yet, but I'm sure there will be sprinting done. There seems to be more Zope people this year than last. There was talk about having a security sprint at PyCon, but after security seemed to be in a good state already that petered out, I think. We can announce a Big Fat Zope sprint and put up a wiki page for that too, and people can add topics they want to sprint on. Could be a good idea? It looks like this time there are few formalities to arrange a sprint: http://us.pycon.org/2009/sprints/call-for-projects/ Ah, OK. I'll set up a Zope Sprint wiki page then, so people can sign up for the sprints and suggest topics. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] opensp...@pycon 2009 about Zope/Repoze/Grok/Deliverence etc.
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 15:46, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 14:09, Baiju M mba...@zeomega.net wrote: It looks like this time there are few formalities to arrange a sprint: http://us.pycon.org/2009/sprints/call-for-projects/ Ah, OK. I'll set up a Zope Sprint wiki page then, so people can sign up for the sprints and suggest topics. Sprint wiki is up: http://us.pycon.org/2009/sprints/projects/zope/ -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] opensp...@pycon 2009 about Zope/Repoze/Grok/Deliverence etc.
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:19, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: Cool. FTR, some Pylons folks and some Repoze folks (including me) and maybe folks from some other WSGI/MVC-framework folks are likely to sprint on some convergence tasks. I wonder if instead of having small island sprints we should consider having one big web frameworks sprint and split into smaller teams when we get into the room? It would be nice to be in the same room, at least. It would probably turn out to be an every-web-framework-except-Django sprint, actually (because their sprints are *huge* people-wise). That would be cool. I suspect, though, that from an advertising point of view, they would like to call it separate sprints to get their people to go. We might be able to organize things so that we are in the same room, or in rooms closely together, I think the sprints are in the same place as last year. We should talk to Jacob Kaplan-Moss about that. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] opensp...@pycon 2009 about Zope/Repoze/Grok/Deliverence etc.
Lots of things have happened in the Zope universe the last couple of years, and are still happening, some of which are turning Zope inside out, from a monolithic ghetto to a componentized agile speed monster. People outside the Zope world doesn't know about it, and although the Zope community mostly seems to be on the same page, I think it would be nice if we get as many as possible together to discuss the status and where things are going. And, if we don't have anything to discuss, we can drop off to some bar and toast at how great Zope is. :-) So, I propose to have an Open Space session at PyCon, Chicago, March 27-29 . As this is a part of the unconference bit of PyCon, you don't have to sign up, but you can say if you are coming here anyway, just so we get a feeling for the interest. And although we can't decide when to do this yet, if you are only able to go to PyCon certain days, say so here, so we'll know when we can get the most participants. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 Released!
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 16:20, Stephan Richter srich...@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu wrote: Nobody reacted to my E-mail when I asked for feedback. It was extra work and I tried to limit the scope of coding as much as possible. You don't want to know how much time I put into this release as it is. I obviously didn't read it properly. :) It's no panic, but yeah, I think automatic upgrades like that would be a nice option. But it might be something that could be a part of the buildout recipe. But admittedly it's really mostly only useful for developers, wouldn't want production machines to upgrade without me being explicit about it. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Retiring the Zope SVN trunk? was: Re: Zope Tests: 6 OK, 2 Failed
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 13:56, Hanno Schlichting hanno...@hannosch.eu wrote: It becomes somewhat hard and annoying to keep the old full Zope trunk tree based on externals in sync with the Zope2 buildout and its KGS definition and it seems I failed yesterday. I'd suggest we reorganize the Zope trunk and replace it by the current buildout. As part of that we can move the code that has been moved to its own projects like Acquisition and DateTime out of the main tree. Would that mean that 2.12 becomes buildout-only? Not that I mind, I use buildouts all the time anyway. Maybe that's the plan anyhow? -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Retiring the Zope SVN trunk? was: Re: Zope Tests: 6 OK, 2 Failed
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 19:44, Hanno Schlichting hanno...@hannosch.eu wrote: It would mean buildout becomes a requirement for the development of Zope2 itself. Oh, +1 to that. For the devlopment with or on top of Zope2 any system that can deal with normal Python distributions would work. In addition the plan is to release at least for Zope 2.12 an old-style tarball release in the same way all releases up to 2.11 have been handled. Hanno ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Plans for Zope 2.12
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 10:38, Chris Withers ch...@simplistix.co.uk wrote: Note that Jim never explained to me how he does these audits, but I gathered some methods he used in conversations. I think I did a pretty thorough job during the review. Yeah, this disturbs me a lot still though :-S I know the feeling. :) I completely trust that Stephan did a good job if he thinks he did, but I would be happy if we could gather a bunch of smart people to spread the knowledge. Maybe a security review sprint at PyCon, or somesuch? I'd like to hang in a corner and suck up the smartness. :) Or, I'd love to help in a sprint to move to security proxies. It's a major job of course, and the minimal job is to make proxies that replicate the current very complex and idiosyncratic Zope2 security. At least such a sprint should be able to locate any big problems and impossibilities so we can think of a path to fix that. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 Released!
is not upwards compatible with Zope 2. This means you cannot run Zope 2 applications in Zope 3. We continue to work on the transition from Zope 2 to Zope 3 by making Zope 2 use more and more of the Zope 3 infrastructure. This means that new code written in Zope 2 can benefit from Zope 3 technology. Also, with care, code can be written that works in both Zope 3 and Zope 2. This allows a Zope 2 application to slowly evolve towards Zope 3. Unchanged Zope 2 applications are never expected to work in Zope 3, however. About the Zope Foundation - The Zope Foundation, based in Fredricksburg, Virginia, is a not-for-profit organisation that provides support for the Zope community and the Zope platform and its associated software. Its community includes the open source community of contributers as well as the community of businesses and organizations that use Zope. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [ZWeb] an idea for the wiki
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 07:44, Simon Michael si...@joyful.com wrote: Then I realised it's a plone site, so you could just move the wiki in and it should acquire the skin without further effort. I think it might look pretty good. What do folks think about trying this ? I'm not sure what move the wiki in means, but of course it would be great if the wiki could look like the rest of the site. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] an idea for the wiki
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 08:31, Simon Michael si...@joyful.com wrote: By move the wiki in I mean cut the zope3 wiki folder from wiki.zope.org and paste it somewhere inside the n.z.o plone instance. (Or rather, since they are separate machines, use zsyncer or export/import.) It will use the plone skin then. OK, I didn't know zwiki integrated with Plone that easily. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [Zope-dev] catalog performance: query plan
On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 19:58, Roché Compaan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I'm in full agreement that we need to fix indexes that are problematic, I started doing some benchmarks on the large data set that gave us so many headaches. It is probably not surprising that the more complex indexes are performing badly. DateRangeIndex, KeywordIndex and Plone's ExtendedPathIndex performed the worst. Below are some stats showing timings around the apply_index call in Catalog.py that was done while testing the application with real data: ExtendedPathIndex doesn't need fixing, but we need to stop using it. It's done to support navigation trees from the catalog, but navigation should not be done via the same catalog as you do other things, but a dedicated tool. That would simplify and speed things up a lot. But OK, that's off-topic. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] catalog performance: query plan
On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 22:29, Matt Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lennart Regebro regebro at gmail.com writes: I would be interested in seeing a bunch of Gurus sit down at some sprint and trying to come up with a catalog engine that is incremental and uses query plans. There is no reason that would not be stupidly fast. :) We can then make a new catalog that uses this engine but has the same API as the old one, to ship with some future version of Zope, say 2.12. There is the Plone Performance sprint we are hosting in Bristol, UK on the 11th - 14th Dec. http://plone.org/events/sprints/bristol-performance-sprint Whilst it is billed as a Plone sprint, of course much of the speedups can be done at the Zope level, so Zope-only developers are more than welcome :) This is exactly the kind of thing that I like hacking on personally, so would love to see it worked on at the sprint. Cool. I do not have time in December though, so some other time. And if we could get Dieter Maurer and Helge Tesdal in on this, as they has experience and understanding of the issues that would be great. That's probably going to take even more planning, so maybe for a future performance sprint somewhere? -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] catalog performance: query plan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 17:32, Alan Runyan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with Tres. A lot more can be done with Indexes and Catalog without caching. The most exiciting development in Catalog optimizations comes out Jarn. Helge Tesdal (iirc) did a buncha work at a RDBMS company when he was in college. He has a protoype of a query plan for ZCatalog. http://www.jarn.com/blog/catalog-query-plan I would like to ask Roche and others to look at the Query Plan. Caching is a total PITA because invalidation machinery becomes overwhelming complex and unwieldly quickly in production. I don't know very much about searching, but this definitely sounds like a good idea. Also, especially when doing free text searching that has large result sets, incremental searching is very beneficial. I know Dieter Maurer has made a Zope2 implementation of this. I would be interested in seeing a bunch of Gurus sit down at some sprint and trying to come up with a catalog engine that is incremental and uses query plans. There is no reason that would not be stupidly fast. :) We can then make a new catalog that uses this engine but has the same API as the old one, to ship with some future version of Zope, say 2.12. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 2.12 features
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 15:03, Hanno Schlichting [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Reconsider getting rid of ZClasses +1 I have some things I want to do when it coms to timezones, so I would like to mentally prepare me for about what release date we are talking about here, so I know when I have to do this. Could be a good xmas entertainment for example. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZServer/medusa doesn't work with Python 2.6
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 15:36, Sidnei da Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This one is for someone that has some asyncore knowledge: Python 2.6 has cleaned up and integrated many patches to asyncore, some of which seem to have broken the medusa version shipped with Zope. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/zope2/+bug/280020 My question is, is this something we should fix in Zope or is it a bug in Python 2.6 that asyncore is not backwards compatible? Well, that is probably a bug, but the question is if it's likely to be fixed. I guess python-dev are the only ones that knows that. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Dependencies and future of zope 3
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 02:54, David Pratt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In any case I am interested in hearing from folks about what can or ought to be done or whether there is interest in this direction. Many thanks. That the packages are too dependent on each other today, and that this means a base installation of Zope3 is too big is well known. So I think I can definitely say Yes to that answer. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
