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I'm wearing my NCSU hat while writing this email.

NCSU is absolutely doing #2 and actively making an effort to *not* do #1.

I just realized that some of the confusion is probably coming from content at 
the vcl.ncsu.edu website.  There is a lot of information there that would 
lead people to think we may be doing #1.  Consider all of that content to be 
old and just not yet updated.  We've held off on updating it because of all 
of this discussion about the name.  We'd rather not go to all of the trouble 
to change everything there to talk about VCL being developed at ASF and then 
end up changing the ASF name to something other than VCL, causing us to have 
to change everything again to reflect the new name.

Josh

On Saturday February 21, 2009, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
>  From my vantage point I see a few things going on.  First, there is a
> strong affiliation between the developers of Apache VCL with their
> roots at NCSU.  Makes sense as that was the genesis of the project and
> I think many of those involved are still active at the university.
> Second, there is a sense of abandoning that relationship if we change
> the name at Apache.  I haven't heard from Mladen who was one of the
> project sponsors and commiters on this topic, perhaps he has some
> insight as he was involved i the genesis work at the University as
> well as a strong proponent of the move to Apache.
>
> I don't see a problem continuing with the name if, and here is the
> crux of the issue,  there is not another work that has the same name,
> developed by largely the same people and doing the same thing as this
> project.  If there is, that is a problem.  It diminishes the value of
> the project at Apache and it confuses people.  In essence, the
> community at Apache is willing to take the Apache brand and not
> willing to commit the project to Apache.  I'm not saying that is what
> is happening, that appearance is there though.
>
> Here are the scenarios I see:
>
> 1. NCSU builds and distributes a codebase called VCL and the same
> group works at Apache doing the same thing with the same name.
>
> 2. NCSU consumes the project from Apache and is the NCSU Virtual
> Computing Lab Powered by Apache VCL.
>
> The first option is not acceptable.  If that is the scenario that is
> occurring then the current community will have to choose a location.
> You can't do both.
>
> The second option sounds like what is more like where we are, or at
> least this is where we are going.  If that is the case then the real
> question is does NCSU need to not use the Virtual Computing Lab name.
> I don't see a problem with that (although some Apache volunteer
> lawyers should probably comment on this) as one is a place and the
> other is a thing (code).
>
> So we need to be precise about which entity is doing and what they are
> claiming.
>
> Can someone from NCSU provide a definitive statement on this?  We
> CANNOT leave this as ambiguous.
>
> Matt
>
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> > You are confusing the installation with the department.  To be sure
> > NCSU could use Apache VCL, even install  and use it.  However,
> > having the progenitor keep its name, VCL, causes a conflict that
> > needs to be resolved.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Alan
> >
> > On Feb 19, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
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> >> But what does it mean to "stop using theirs"?  Does it mean the
> >> letters "VCL"
> >> cannot appear anywhere at their site?  (I feel really weird saying
> >> "their"
> >> since I'm employed at NCSU, but I'll try to stick to saying this
> >> with my ASF
> >> hat on).
> >>
> >> I feel really strongly that we (ASF) should continue using VCL as
> >> the name for
> >> the project because that's what it has been know as for the last 5
> >> years.
> >> So, I want to work toward figuring out what NCSU must do to allow
> >> that to
> >> happen.  If everything at NCSU gets changed to "Apache VCL at
> >> NCSU", would
> >> that work?  The goal of moving VCL from NCSU to ASF is to allow
> >> more people
> >> to get involved in development of it, and thus have it used at more
> >> places.
> >> So, it would make sense to me for multiple places to be able to
> >> call their
> >> install of it "Apache VCL at <insert institution name here>".
> >>
> >> Josh
> >>
> >> On Thursday February 19, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> >>> As Matt pointed out there needs to be a distinction between this ASF
> >>> project and its original progenitor, NCSU VCL.  It's quite simple,
> >>> either we change our name or they stop using theirs.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Alan
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 6, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
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> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
> >>>> anything that
> >>>> *can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
> >>>>
> >>>> Josh
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> >>>>> Thanks for your comments Matt.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well, it's after the holidays.  Time to pick this thread back up.
> >>>>> This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Alan
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> >>>>>> Alan,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for starting the discussion about this.  I think there
> >>>>>> are a
> >>>>>> few different issues so I'll try to separate them.  The issues we
> >>>>>> need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
> >>>>>> identity of the community.  Perhaps we should talk about these in
> >>>>>> reverse order.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> First is the identity  of the community.  The move of the
> >>>>>> development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> formation of a community outside of NC State.  So, what NC State
> >>>>>> decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
> >>>>>> community collaborating at Apache.  Given this separation,
> >>>>>> perhaps a
> >>>>>> different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
> >>>>>> between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's
> >>>>>> community.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As far as the name goes.  Since Virtualization and hosting is,
> >>>>>> well,
> >>>>>> virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
> >>>>>> (ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
> >>>>>>> Alan writes:
> >>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>> If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to
> >>>>>>>> assign
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
> >>>>>>>> name.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be
> >>>>>>> resolved.  I
> >>>>>>> think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
> >>>>>>> ownership
> >>>>>>> to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its
> >>>>>>> web
> >>>>>>> site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
> >>>>>>> doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
> >>>>>>> ASF to use
> >>>>>>> "VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would
> >>>>>>> the ASF
> >>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>> "AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name?  (Or some other formulation
> >>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>> would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and
> >>>>>>> potential
> >>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>> that it's the same project.)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Does the above make sense?
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> --henry schaffer
> >>>>
> >>>> - --
> >>>> - -------------------------------
> >>>> Josh Thompson
> >>>> Systems Programmer
> >>>> Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
> >>>> North Carolina State University
> >>>>
> >>>> josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
> >>>> 919-515-5323
> >>>>
> >>>> my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
> >>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> >>>>
> >>>> iD8DBQFJY4RhV/LQcNdtPQMRAtNJAJ9CViggEk5XIPl5DH/Q+cL2JerOoQCbBHsv
> >>>> O7WjXdHQWfQ6B3uUTkTr9+g=
> >>>> =iwnz
> >>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >>
> >> - --
> >> - -------------------------------
> >> Josh Thompson
> >> Systems Programmer
> >> Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
> >> North Carolina State University
> >>
> >> josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
> >> 919-515-5323
> >>
> >> my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> >> 08/+XKmuBe0HDLfJDogNMKc=
> >> =NPtg
> >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



- -- 
- -------------------------------
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University

josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323

my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
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