On Mar 6, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:

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On Fri March 6 2009 1:09:20 pm Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
On Mar 6, 2009, at 7:14 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
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On Fri March 6 2009 9:37:03 am Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what the name,
either formal or common, AFS rules require a different name?

Correct, our project name has to be different.

This is the message I keep hearing (and by "hearing", I mean it is
how I am
interpreting what I read) that doesn't make any sense to me:

"There must be a name for the project at ASF that isn't used
anywhere else in
the world for any similar project, and anyone who downloads and
installs said
project isn't allowed to use the ASF name in any way."

That doesn't make sense to me because t's a normal business model to
produce
software that is to be sold and used by other people /without/
changing the
name of the software, in fact, it would generally be considered
wrong to
change the name. An example similar to ours that I can think of is Blackboard software used for online courses. www.blackboard.com is
the site
for the company that develops it.  If you do a google search
for "allinurl:blackboard" you'll find many sites that have
Blackboard
installed and actually use "blackboard" in the URL.

You are missing the point.  I am not advocating changing the name
just
for the sake of changing the name.  There is a conflict in naming
between NCSU VCL and this project.  It's that simple.

I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding what you're saying - I need
you to
restate it using different wording rather than just repeating
yourself.  I
don't understand the naming conflict between ASF VCL and NCSU's
install of
VCL (keep in mind the content at vcl.ncsu.edu will be changed to
refer to
development of VCL being at ASF and stuff at vcl.ncsu.edu to just be
an
install of it).

It's the name your department name, NCSU VCL, and the name of this
incubating project, ASF VCL, that is the problem.  They cannot be the
same.  It doesn't matter if the stuff at the NCSU VCL department is
just an installation of the ASF VCL project.  It doesn't matter if
there's attribution at the NCSU VCL department that they have
installed ASF VCL software.

There is a naming conflict and that has to be resolved.

Umm, there is no "NCSU VCL" department. There are people from two different groups at NCSU that are involved in development of VCL. The main group being the Office of Information Technology. There is a group within that named
Advanced Computing.  Aaron, Andy, and I are in that group.  There is a
completely separate group named Centennial Networking Lab that has a fair
amount of interest in VCL as well.  Brian and Andrew work for them.

Other than the content at vcl.ncsu.edu discussing development of VCL that will
be changed to reflect development being done at ASF, the only thing -
organizational unit or otherwise - at NCSU that exists using the name VCL is
the installation of this project.

Ok, so now we may be making some progress here.  When I go to

http://vcl.ncsu.edu/

VCL is all over the place. It really gives the impression that there's a lab over at NCSU called VCL. I see "Virtual Computing Lab, powered by NC STATE's Virtual Computing Platform". Even if the powered by clause were changed as mentioned in previous posts to:

Virtual Computing Lab, powered by ASF VCL

I don't see how that would fly. If however, *every* reference to VCL and Virtual Computing Lab were replaced with, say, WolfPack. Then this would definitely work:

WolfPack, powered by ASF VCL

Are you saying that *all* VCL and Virtual Computing Lab terms will be scrubbed at NCSU?

It seems to me, the Blackboard example I gave above exactly
matches our situation.  If it can work for them, why can it not work
for VCL?
If you don't think it matches our situation, please clearly state
how and why
you don't think it matches.

It does not match our situation.  In your example you have a *single*
corporation.  In our situation we have two separate institutions, one
of them being a non-profit software foundation.  The project at the
ASF cannot share a name with it's progenitor, an external institution.

I mention branding because it's obvious that the NCSU staff is
vociferously attempting to keep the branding connection between the
NCSU department and the ASF incubator project by keeping the same
name, regardless of what that name is.

I'm not trying to keep a branding connection between NCSU and VCL. I'm trying to keep a project that's been known by the name VCL for almost 5 years, having had many presentations and papers published about it from having to be renamed to something else that no one has heard of. This is the *only* reason I am interested in keeping the VCL name. There were discussions at NCSU a little while ago about changing the name (before there was even the idea to move development to ASF). I wanted to keep the VCL name then too - for exactly the same reasons - because it is what people know the / project/ as. I'm not trying to keep the name because people associate it with NCSU, nor because I think it is necessarily the best name for the project (as in, a different name from the beginning may have been better). It's simply because people know this project as VCL, and I don't think it makes sense to change
the name that so many people already know.

When the NCSU staff, including the CIO, chime in it gives a specific impression. Hence my opinion.

As for previous notoriety of VCL the solution is simple, scrub VCL from the NCSU side. Other corporations have been in the same boat as we currently find ourselves, including a long presentation and publishing history. They let go of the name in its entirety so that the ASF project could hold it.


Regards,
Alan



Josh


Regards,
Alan

Matt and Kevan - Do you understand what Alan is saying?  If so, as
our other
two mentors, can you help to clarify it?

Josh

I will repeat myself again here. NCSU VCL and its developers have a
lot to be proud of.  It's only natural that both, NCSU VCL and its
developers at ASF VCL, would want to keep their association with the
brand.  That brand is only strengthened as departments from other
universities join in and have their initiatives participate in the
VCL
brand.  Unfortunately the ASF must remain independent this branding
effort.

We are not a business.  We are an independent, non-profit, software
foundation and we must remain free from such entanglements.


Regards,
Alan



- --
- -------------------------------
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University

josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323

my GPG/PGP key can be found at www.keyserver.net
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