I always enjoy your posts, thank you.  Even though I no longer 
practice, I still believe deeply in the Zen existence. And, no, I 
have not been listening to Al. Al should understand that if you 
detach yourself from your Ego through these 'mind-numbing' practices 
you will be a better person, more in-tune with the world around you 
and enabling you to be an agent of change or positive influence to 
others.  I was just trying to point out one of the differences 
between Chan and Zen. In my reading of Bill's response to JM's 
explanation on Chi, I felt he was just dismissing as symmantics, but 
I was trying to relate my experience with Energy in Zen is the real 
and true experience of Chi in Chan. The difference being JM 
acknowledges and consciously uses this Kundalini energy in his 
practice, where we can acknowledge it in Zen, but we do not let it 
affect our concentration. 

Thank You,


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> Whilst sitting on my vipassana retreat I experienced many instances 
of energy rushing up my spine (kundalini), mind expansion, loss of 
physical/mental boundaries reuslting in feelings of oceanic bliss and 
even one occassion where I became nothing but a body of minute, blue 
paricles. I also experienced tremendous amounts of physical pain, 
boredom and daydreaming. Both positive and negative experiences are 
important but only in as much as they lead to the realisation/insight 
that they are just phenonema/maya. Your teacher was correct - just 
sit thru them with equanimity and don't crave them or push them away. 
This insight can then be applied to your everyday life where you can 
accept things as they are and not try to control the uncontrollable. 
This does not mean that you live life in some kind of numb, zombie 
like existence (you listening Al?), but experience reality directly 
as it is without adding a subjective commentary created by a 
>  mind. Mike.
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: cid830 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 7 September, 2008 10:19:01
> Subject: [Zen] Chan?
> Bill,
> I experienced in deep practice of Zen a tremendous amount of ENERGY 
> while meditating. Usually just when I would reach a completely 
> relaxed state I would experience the most beautiful rush of energy, 
> but through my training I would just ignore this and continue my 
> concentration. 
> Through my very limited knowledge of Chan, it seems to me that JM 
> speaks of this experience of ENERGY the tangible experience of Chi. 
> It seems to me the He can manipulate this energy, or karma, or chi 
> for positive values. 
> So that seems to me at least part of it; hopefully JM can help me 
> alittle.  But that seems to also be a difference between Chan and 
> Zen just experience Just This, and Chan, cultivate the energies of 
> Just This for a positive existence. 
> Later,
> And I always reserve the right to completely be Wrong!
> Chris


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