I'm with Bill on this one; I was taught to believe that satori was 
an initial breakthrough or awakening. But that it is not necessarily 
Enlightenment or the complete loss of self. Although, i think it is 
possible to experience it all at once.  Satori is a concept but it 
is real as defined in one's practice.  And if one believes satori is 
real, then it is real. Especially if they experience it! We can say 
everything is an illusion, but we still need to define parameters 
for the sake of discussion, as well as for noting progress in our 
practice. 

Thanks,
       Chris

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thank you for all of your input about satori.  I used google 
translator 
> and I found the Japanese equivalent, 悟り
> 
> If that is the correct Kanji, then it means literally Awakening.  
> Awakening is defined by our school a realization/experience that 
we are 
> enslaved by our mind.  Just a mental realization as well as an 
> experience separating us from our mind.
> 
> Is this correct? 
> 
> If satori means a state of being, then we can live our daily life 
in the 
> state of Satori, then there is no self.  Therefore no suffering, 
no 
> judgment, etc.
> 
> Thanks,
> JM
> PS. Our school uses the term of "practice with our heart", because 
heart 
> has no memory.  It is incapable to think.  :-)
> 
> 
> 
> siminotes wrote:
> >
> > realizing Awareness.
> >
> > Sudden or gradual.....
> >
> > Neither
> >
> > Both
> >
> > It is when the ego no longer covers the personality and you are 
just
> > yourself.
> >
> > Neither sudden nor gradual.
> >
> > siminotes
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%
40yahoogroups.com>, 
> > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > JM,
> > >
> > > Satori is actually a misleading illusion. It refers to the
> > > realization of the true nature of things by direct experience. 
But
> > > since the nature of things is ever present and actually is our
> > direct
> > > experience in that view we are always directly experiencing 
it. By
> > > using the term satori, we make an illusory distinction that we 
can
> > > either realize or not realize the true nature of things. But 
that
> > > implies an illusory dualism in the nature of things (the 
nature of
> > > things actually being our direct experience) as either one way 
or
> > the
> > > other. It imposes a judgment on direct experience, and 
judgement
> > is
> > > the antithesis of satori. So that is incorrect. All that 
exists is
> > > direct experience of the true nature of things, there is 
nothing
> > > else. Thus satori is and can be nothing, it is meaningless, an
> > empty
> > > word, a sound on the wind. All this is just a matter of which
> > empty
> > > words are used to describe the one true experience that is
> > > consciousness.
> > >
> > > From the point of view of satori, satori and not satori have no
> > > meaning. ONly from the point of view of non satori, is the 
concept
> > of
> > > satori meaningful, as only in the world of relativity and 
dualism
> > can
> > > there be such a distinction.
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 17, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 
覺妙精明
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi guys, What is satori? Is it sudden or gradual? Is it 
permanent
> > or
> > > > on and off? If you have any Buddhist term to refer to, it 
would
> > help.
> > > > Much obliged, JM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>



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