Chris, et al,

I'm not saying that I beleive 'satori' is real - it is maya.  Your 
self is maya and all those things that occlude your Buddha Nature 
(Just THIS!) are maya.  I was merely answering some questions about 
what the Japanese term 'satori' means, and how it is used in Japanese 
Zen Buddhist practice.

The idea that there is a 'little enlightenment' and a 'medium 
enlightenment' and a 'big enlightenment', etc..., has always bothered 
me a little bit, but in practice it doesn't matter.

The truth of it is that you do seem to awaken to your Buddha 
Nature 'suddenly' (after maybe a lot of preparation), and the first 
time that happens it is not 'full' and is not 'permanent'.  That has 
been my experience and the experience of many others I know, and is 
also the premise on which Japanese Zen Buddhism structures it's 
teachings.  There are even 'breakthrough' koans (like Mu or One Hand 
Clapping), and more 'refining' koans (like Dried Shit on a Stick and 
Mouse Bowl is Broken).

As I hope most of you who read this forum know I do not promot 
Japanese Zen Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Chan Buddhism or even Buddhism.  
I testify to what I call 'zen' (lower case 'z') which is a much more 
generic practice leading to the realization of Just THIS! (Buddha 
Nature), and the continual integration of that perspective into daily 
life.  I do use a lot of Buddhist and Japanese terms because that is 
how I was first introduced to and was taught zen.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "cid830" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm with Bill on this one; I was taught to believe that satori was 
> an initial breakthrough or awakening. But that it is not 
necessarily 
> Enlightenment or the complete loss of self. Although, i think it is 
> possible to experience it all at once.  Satori is a concept but it 
> is real as defined in one's practice.  And if one believes satori 
is 
> real, then it is real. Especially if they experience it! We can say 
> everything is an illusion, but we still need to define parameters 
> for the sake of discussion, as well as for noting progress in our 
> practice. 
> 
> Thanks,
>        Chris
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
> <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for all of your input about satori.  I used google 
> translator 
> > and I found the Japanese equivalent, 悟り
> > 
> > If that is the correct Kanji, then it means literally Awakening.  
> > Awakening is defined by our school a realization/experience that 
> we are 
> > enslaved by our mind.  Just a mental realization as well as an 
> > experience separating us from our mind.
> > 
> > Is this correct? 
> > 
> > If satori means a state of being, then we can live our daily life 
> in the 
> > state of Satori, then there is no self.  Therefore no suffering, 
> no 
> > judgment, etc.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > JM
> > PS. Our school uses the term of "practice with our heart", 
because 
> heart 
> > has no memory.  It is incapable to think.  :-)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > siminotes wrote:
> > >
> > > realizing Awareness.
> > >
> > > Sudden or gradual.....
> > >
> > > Neither
> > >
> > > Both
> > >
> > > It is when the ego no longer covers the personality and you are 
> just
> > > yourself.
> > >
> > > Neither sudden nor gradual.
> > >
> > > siminotes
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%
> 40yahoogroups.com>, 
> > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > JM,
> > > >
> > > > Satori is actually a misleading illusion. It refers to the
> > > > realization of the true nature of things by direct 
experience. 
> But
> > > > since the nature of things is ever present and actually is our
> > > direct
> > > > experience in that view we are always directly experiencing 
> it. By
> > > > using the term satori, we make an illusory distinction that 
we 
> can
> > > > either realize or not realize the true nature of things. But 
> that
> > > > implies an illusory dualism in the nature of things (the 
> nature of
> > > > things actually being our direct experience) as either one 
way 
> or
> > > the
> > > > other. It imposes a judgment on direct experience, and 
> judgement
> > > is
> > > > the antithesis of satori. So that is incorrect. All that 
> exists is
> > > > direct experience of the true nature of things, there is 
> nothing
> > > > else. Thus satori is and can be nothing, it is meaningless, an
> > > empty
> > > > word, a sound on the wind. All this is just a matter of which
> > > empty
> > > > words are used to describe the one true experience that is
> > > > consciousness.
> > > >
> > > > From the point of view of satori, satori and not satori have 
no
> > > > meaning. ONly from the point of view of non satori, is the 
> concept
> > > of
> > > > satori meaningful, as only in the world of relativity and 
> dualism
> > > can
> > > > there be such a distinction.
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 17, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 
> 覺妙精明
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi guys, What is satori? Is it sudden or gradual? Is it 
> permanent
> > > or
> > > > > on and off? If you have any Buddhist term to refer to, it 
> would
> > > help.
> > > > > Much obliged, JM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>



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