Thank you Bill. I was merely stating that I agree with your definition of satori. My other remarks were referencing Edgar's post about satori, no satori. I felt he was stating that there is no such thing as satori, it is all an illusion, and I know where he is coming from... but how can you say there is no such thing if it can be defined and experienced?
Also, I agree, how can one be a 'little' enlightened? But maybe one can experience a glimpse of this awakening, without being fully awake! I still have a hard time separating Zen and Buddhism, even though I have always believed 100% in the Zen philosophy, while not fully encompassing the Buddhist religion. Thank You, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Chris, et al, > > I'm not saying that I beleive 'satori' is real - it is maya. Your > self is maya and all those things that occlude your Buddha Nature > (Just THIS!) are maya. I was merely answering some questions about > what the Japanese term 'satori' means, and how it is used in Japanese > Zen Buddhist practice. > > The idea that there is a 'little enlightenment' and a 'medium > enlightenment' and a 'big enlightenment', etc..., has always bothered > me a little bit, but in practice it doesn't matter. > > The truth of it is that you do seem to awaken to your Buddha > Nature 'suddenly' (after maybe a lot of preparation), and the first > time that happens it is not 'full' and is not 'permanent'. That has > been my experience and the experience of many others I know, and is > also the premise on which Japanese Zen Buddhism structures it's > teachings. There are even 'breakthrough' koans (like Mu or One Hand > Clapping), and more 'refining' koans (like Dried Shit on a Stick and > Mouse Bowl is Broken). > > As I hope most of you who read this forum know I do not promot > Japanese Zen Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Chan Buddhism or even Buddhism. > I testify to what I call 'zen' (lower case 'z') which is a much more > generic practice leading to the realization of Just THIS! (Buddha > Nature), and the continual integration of that perspective into daily > life. I do use a lot of Buddhist and Japanese terms because that is > how I was first introduced to and was taught zen. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "cid830" <summitjags@> wrote: > > > > I'm with Bill on this one; I was taught to believe that satori was > > an initial breakthrough or awakening. But that it is not > necessarily > > Enlightenment or the complete loss of self. Although, i think it is > > possible to experience it all at once. Satori is a concept but it > > is real as defined in one's practice. And if one believes satori > is > > real, then it is real. Especially if they experience it! We can say > > everything is an illusion, but we still need to define parameters > > for the sake of discussion, as well as for noting progress in our > > practice. > > > > Thanks, > > Chris > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > Thank you for all of your input about satori. I used google > > translator > > > and I found the Japanese equivalent, æã > > > > > > If that is the correct Kanji, then it means literally Awakening. > > > Awakening is defined by our school a realization/experience that > > we are > > > enslaved by our mind. Just a mental realization as well as an > > > experience separating us from our mind. > > > > > > Is this correct? > > > > > > If satori means a state of being, then we can live our daily life > > in the > > > state of Satori, then there is no self. Therefore no suffering, > > no > > > judgment, etc. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > JM > > > PS. Our school uses the term of "practice with our heart", > because > > heart > > > has no memory. It is incapable to think. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > siminotes wrote: > > > > > > > > realizing Awareness. > > > > > > > > Sudden or gradual..... > > > > > > > > Neither > > > > > > > > Both > > > > > > > > It is when the ego no longer covers the personality and you are > > just > > > > yourself. > > > > > > > > Neither sudden nor gradual. > > > > > > > > siminotes > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum% > > 40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > JM, > > > > > > > > > > Satori is actually a misleading illusion. It refers to the > > > > > realization of the true nature of things by direct > experience. > > But > > > > > since the nature of things is ever present and actually is our > > > > direct > > > > > experience in that view we are always directly experiencing > > it. By > > > > > using the term satori, we make an illusory distinction that > we > > can > > > > > either realize or not realize the true nature of things. But > > that > > > > > implies an illusory dualism in the nature of things (the > > nature of > > > > > things actually being our direct experience) as either one > way > > or > > > > the > > > > > other. It imposes a judgment on direct experience, and > > judgement > > > > is > > > > > the antithesis of satori. So that is incorrect. All that > > exists is > > > > > direct experience of the true nature of things, there is > > nothing > > > > > else. Thus satori is and can be nothing, it is meaningless, an > > > > empty > > > > > word, a sound on the wind. All this is just a matter of which > > > > empty > > > > > words are used to describe the one true experience that is > > > > > consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > From the point of view of satori, satori and not satori have > no > > > > > meaning. ONly from the point of view of non satori, is the > > concept > > > > of > > > > > satori meaningful, as only in the world of relativity and > > dualism > > > > can > > > > > there be such a distinction. > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 17, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > 覺å¦â¢Ã§Â²Â¾Ã¦ËŽ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, What is satori? Is it sudden or gradual? Is it > > permanent > > > > or > > > > > > on and off? If you have any Buddhist term to refer to, it > > would > > > > help. > > > > > > Much obliged, JM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
