I agree...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> Depends on your perspective. If you aren't in satori then the 
concept  
> of satori makes sense as one concept among others, but if you are 
in  
> satori then no concepts, including that of satori, make sense.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 17, 2008, at 4:51 PM, cid830 wrote:
> 
> > Thank you Bill. I was merely stating that I agree with your
> > definition of satori. My other remarks were referencing Edgar's
> > post about satori, no satori. I felt he was stating that there is
> > no such thing as satori, it is all an illusion, and I know where 
he
> > is coming from... but how can you say there is no such thing if it
> > can be defined and experienced?
> >
> > Also, I agree, how can one be a 'little' enlightened? But maybe
> > one can experience a glimpse of this awakening, without being 
fully
> > awake!
> >
> > I still have a hard time separating Zen and Buddhism, even though 
I
> > have always believed 100% in the Zen philosophy, while not fully
> > encompassing the Buddhist religion.
> >
> > Thank You,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris, et al,
> > >
> > > I'm not saying that I beleive 'satori' is real - it is maya. 
Your
> > > self is maya and all those things that occlude your Buddha 
Nature
> > > (Just THIS!) are maya. I was merely answering some questions
> > about
> > > what the Japanese term 'satori' means, and how it is used in
> > Japanese
> > > Zen Buddhist practice.
> > >
> > > The idea that there is a 'little enlightenment' and a 'medium
> > > enlightenment' and a 'big enlightenment', etc..., has always
> > bothered
> > > me a little bit, but in practice it doesn't matter.
> > >
> > > The truth of it is that you do seem to awaken to your Buddha
> > > Nature 'suddenly' (after maybe a lot of preparation), and the
> > first
> > > time that happens it is not 'full' and is not 'permanent'. That
> > has
> > > been my experience and the experience of many others I know, and
> > is
> > > also the premise on which Japanese Zen Buddhism structures it's
> > > teachings. There are even 'breakthrough' koans (like Mu or One
> > Hand
> > > Clapping), and more 'refining' koans (like Dried Shit on a Stick
> > and
> > > Mouse Bowl is Broken).
> > >
> > > As I hope most of you who read this forum know I do not promot
> > > Japanese Zen Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Chan Buddhism or even
> > Buddhism.
> > > I testify to what I call 'zen' (lower case 'z') which is a much
> > more
> > > generic practice leading to the realization of Just THIS! 
(Buddha
> > > Nature), and the continual integration of that perspective into
> > daily
> > > life. I do use a lot of Buddhist and Japanese terms because that
> > is
> > > how I was first introduced to and was taught zen.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "cid830" <summitjags@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm with Bill on this one; I was taught to believe that satori
> > was
> > > > an initial breakthrough or awakening. But that it is not
> > > necessarily
> > > > Enlightenment or the complete loss of self. Although, i think 
it
> > is
> > > > possible to experience it all at once. Satori is a concept but
> > it
> > > > is real as defined in one's practice. And if one believes
> > satori
> > > is
> > > > real, then it is real. Especially if they experience it! We 
can
> > say
> > > > everything is an illusion, but we still need to define
> > parameters
> > > > for the sake of discussion, as well as for noting progress in
> > our
> > > > practice.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
> > 覺妙精明
> > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for all of your input about satori. I used google
> > > > translator
> > > > > and I found the Japanese equivalent, 悟り
> > > > >
> > > > > If that is the correct Kanji, then it means literally
> > Awakening.
> > > > > Awakening is defined by our school a realization/experience
> > that
> > > > we are
> > > > > enslaved by our mind. Just a mental realization as well as 
an
> > > > > experience separating us from our mind.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is this correct?
> > > > >
> > > > > If satori means a state of being, then we can live our daily
> > life
> > > > in the
> > > > > state of Satori, then there is no self. Therefore no
> > suffering,
> > > > no
> > > > > judgment, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > JM
> > > > > PS. Our school uses the term of "practice with our heart",
> > > because
> > > > heart
> > > > > has no memory. It is incapable to think. :-)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > siminotes wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > realizing Awareness.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sudden or gradual.....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neither
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Both
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is when the ego no longer covers the personality and 
you
> > are
> > > > just
> > > > > > yourself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neither sudden nor gradual.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > siminotes
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%
> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > JM,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Satori is actually a misleading illusion. It refers to 
the
> > > > > > > realization of the true nature of things by direct
> > > experience.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > since the nature of things is ever present and actually 
is
> > our
> > > > > > direct
> > > > > > > experience in that view we are always directly
> > experiencing
> > > > it. By
> > > > > > > using the term satori, we make an illusory distinction
> > that
> > > we
> > > > can
> > > > > > > either realize or not realize the true nature of things.
> > But
> > > > that
> > > > > > > implies an illusory dualism in the nature of things (the
> > > > nature of
> > > > > > > things actually being our direct experience) as either 
one
> > > way
> > > > or
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > other. It imposes a judgment on direct experience, and
> > > > judgement
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > the antithesis of satori. So that is incorrect. All that
> > > > exists is
> > > > > > > direct experience of the true nature of things, there is
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > > else. Thus satori is and can be nothing, it is
> > meaningless, an
> > > > > > empty
> > > > > > > word, a sound on the wind. All this is just a matter of
> > which
> > > > > > empty
> > > > > > > words are used to describe the one true experience that 
is
> > > > > > > consciousness.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From the point of view of satori, satori and not satori
> > have
> > > no
> > > > > > > meaning. ONly from the point of view of non satori, is 
the
> > > > concept
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > satori meaningful, as only in the world of relativity 
and
> > > > dualism
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > there be such a distinction.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sep 17, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
> > > > 覺妙精明
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi guys, What is satori? Is it sudden or gradual? Is 
it
> > > > permanent
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > on and off? If you have any Buddhist term to refer to,
> > it
> > > > would
> > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > Much obliged, JM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>



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