Chris,

Depends on your perspective. If you aren't in satori then the concept of satori makes sense as one concept among others, but if you are in satori then no concepts, including that of satori, make sense.


Edgar



On Sep 17, 2008, at 4:51 PM, cid830 wrote:

Thank you Bill. I was merely stating that I agree with your
definition of satori. My other remarks were referencing Edgar's
post about satori, no satori. I felt he was stating that there is
no such thing as satori, it is all an illusion, and I know where he
is coming from... but how can you say there is no such thing if it
can be defined and experienced?

Also, I agree, how can one be a 'little' enlightened? But maybe
one can experience a glimpse of this awakening, without being fully
awake!

I still have a hard time separating Zen and Buddhism, even though I
have always believed 100% in the Zen philosophy, while not fully
encompassing the Buddhist religion.

Thank You,

Chris

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Chris, et al,
>
> I'm not saying that I beleive 'satori' is real - it is maya. Your
> self is maya and all those things that occlude your Buddha Nature
> (Just THIS!) are maya. I was merely answering some questions
about
> what the Japanese term 'satori' means, and how it is used in
Japanese
> Zen Buddhist practice.
>
> The idea that there is a 'little enlightenment' and a 'medium
> enlightenment' and a 'big enlightenment', etc..., has always
bothered
> me a little bit, but in practice it doesn't matter.
>
> The truth of it is that you do seem to awaken to your Buddha
> Nature 'suddenly' (after maybe a lot of preparation), and the
first
> time that happens it is not 'full' and is not 'permanent'. That
has
> been my experience and the experience of many others I know, and
is
> also the premise on which Japanese Zen Buddhism structures it's
> teachings. There are even 'breakthrough' koans (like Mu or One
Hand
> Clapping), and more 'refining' koans (like Dried Shit on a Stick
and
> Mouse Bowl is Broken).
>
> As I hope most of you who read this forum know I do not promot
> Japanese Zen Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Chan Buddhism or even
Buddhism.
> I testify to what I call 'zen' (lower case 'z') which is a much
more
> generic practice leading to the realization of Just THIS! (Buddha
> Nature), and the continual integration of that perspective into
daily
> life. I do use a lot of Buddhist and Japanese terms because that
is
> how I was first introduced to and was taught zen.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "cid830" <summitjags@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm with Bill on this one; I was taught to believe that satori
was
> > an initial breakthrough or awakening. But that it is not
> necessarily
> > Enlightenment or the complete loss of self. Although, i think it
is
> > possible to experience it all at once. Satori is a concept but
it
> > is real as defined in one's practice. And if one believes
satori
> is
> > real, then it is real. Especially if they experience it! We can
say
> > everything is an illusion, but we still need to define
parameters
> > for the sake of discussion, as well as for noting progress in
our
> > practice.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
覺妙精明
> > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you for all of your input about satori. I used google
> > translator
> > > and I found the Japanese equivalent, æ‚Ÿã‚Š
> > >
> > > If that is the correct Kanji, then it means literally
Awakening.
> > > Awakening is defined by our school a realization/experience
that
> > we are
> > > enslaved by our mind. Just a mental realization as well as an
> > > experience separating us from our mind.
> > >
> > > Is this correct?
> > >
> > > If satori means a state of being, then we can live our daily
life
> > in the
> > > state of Satori, then there is no self. Therefore no
suffering,
> > no
> > > judgment, etc.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > JM
> > > PS. Our school uses the term of "practice with our heart",
> because
> > heart
> > > has no memory. It is incapable to think. :-)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > siminotes wrote:
> > > >
> > > > realizing Awareness.
> > > >
> > > > Sudden or gradual.....
> > > >
> > > > Neither
> > > >
> > > > Both
> > > >
> > > > It is when the ego no longer covers the personality and you
are
> > just
> > > > yourself.
> > > >
> > > > Neither sudden nor gradual.
> > > >
> > > > siminotes
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > JM,
> > > > >
> > > > > Satori is actually a misleading illusion. It refers to the
> > > > > realization of the true nature of things by direct
> experience.
> > But
> > > > > since the nature of things is ever present and actually is
our
> > > > direct
> > > > > experience in that view we are always directly
experiencing
> > it. By
> > > > > using the term satori, we make an illusory distinction
that
> we
> > can
> > > > > either realize or not realize the true nature of things.
But
> > that
> > > > > implies an illusory dualism in the nature of things (the
> > nature of
> > > > > things actually being our direct experience) as either one
> way
> > or
> > > > the
> > > > > other. It imposes a judgment on direct experience, and
> > judgement
> > > > is
> > > > > the antithesis of satori. So that is incorrect. All that
> > exists is
> > > > > direct experience of the true nature of things, there is
> > nothing
> > > > > else. Thus satori is and can be nothing, it is
meaningless, an
> > > > empty
> > > > > word, a sound on the wind. All this is just a matter of
which
> > > > empty
> > > > > words are used to describe the one true experience that is
> > > > > consciousness.
> > > > >
> > > > > From the point of view of satori, satori and not satori
have
> no
> > > > > meaning. ONly from the point of view of non satori, is the
> > concept
> > > > of
> > > > > satori meaningful, as only in the world of relativity and
> > dualism
> > > > can
> > > > > there be such a distinction.
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sep 17, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
> > 覺妙精明
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi guys, What is satori? Is it sudden or gradual? Is it
> > permanent
> > > > or
> > > > > > on and off? If you have any Buddhist term to refer to,
it
> > would
> > > > help.
> > > > > > Much obliged, JM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




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