Bill,

Chewing gum is an illusion even if the entire universe is chewing gum. Every thing that can be named is an illusion. All form is illusion. The only thing that is real is the illusory world. That is all that can be directly experienced because it consists solely of direct experience. It is illusory in the sense that it is observer dependent, and even the observer himself is an illusion. All is experience (consciousness) only. So at the end of the analysis there is only direct experience, there is nothing else. Thus all is Zen, all is Buddha nature. The only difference between the Zen man and the ordinary man is that the ordinary man thinks the illusions, the forms of the world that he experiences, are reality, and the Zen man knows that reality is the illusory world he experiences. Thus he is able to live more in tune with reality by analyzing and seeing beyond the closest veils of illusion raised by desires and childhood programming etc. However the deeper veils of this human biological form and this physical universe cannot be dropped so easily. Those veils vanish only upon death but then there is no longer an observer and no experience whatsoever....

Consciousness and direct experience and the physical universe and the present moment are all different descriptions of the same thing. Their common substance is ontological energy, Tao, chi, Buddha nature which are all the same thing. This substance is originally still without form. When forms arise as ripples or standing waves within ontological energy that is the illusory world of experiences (things/ events) which are merely empty forms in the universal sea of ontological energy. All beings are also empty forms living in this world of empty forms. The substance of self and all things is ontological energy. But antecedent to self and things, antecedent to experience and experiencer, is simply experience (consciousness).

All the theory above is an empty form.... Only the present moment remains, dynamic living flowing forms of ontological energy, glowing with actual realness.

Edgar



On Nov 3, 2008, at 9:45 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Edgar,

Thanks for your post.

I agree with most of what you write in your first paragraph.

In that paragraph you do say that, "...reality is a single thing, namely the present moment, but it manifests as illusions...as multiple things within
the present moment."

So when you chew gum (that is your awareness is that of chewing gum), then
the universe (reality/Buddha) is chewing gum, isn't it?

However in your second paragraph you say, "The universe can certainly chew gum and walk and engage in the myriad...of other things at the same time."

So I assume when you say "myriad...of other things...", you're referring to
illusions - right? Otherwise, if as you've said 'reality is a single
thing', which is how I understand it to be, then there is only a single
awareness. If that awareness is chewing gum, then that's it. If it's
walking, then that's it.

If you're saying that YOU can have a lot of different illusions at the same time, or even at different illusory time slices; and/or that YOU can event have illusions that there are multiple 'others' out there having multiple synchronous and/or asynchronous 'awareness's', than I also agree with you - but all of this are illusions. I have illusions like this all the time and do operate most of my life based on these illusions. But thanks to my zen
practice I know they are illusory.

I hold to the understanding that there can be only one reality, one
awareness, one moment. That is THIS and it is Now.

And that's what I call Just THIS!

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 11:06 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Question?

Hi Bill,

No, I believe reality is a single thing, namely the present moment, but that it manifests as illusion which is its discrimination and manifestations as multiple things within the present moment. This is the world we normally
live in (except perhaps when we are in deepest meditation and most
individual distinctions have dropped away). In this world of illusion we must deal with illusion as it appears, i.e. causally (or better than the 'we' merges back into the basic flows and moves according to them). We live in the world of illusion, of forms. We do have a lot of control to strip
away many of the veils of illusion in this world, such as desires and
delusions, but we cannot strip away the basic material forms and their
causal relationships.

If I were to chew gum, the entire universe doesn't start chewing gum! What nonsense! The universe can certainly chew gum and walk and engage in myriad upon myriad of other things at the same time. The universe is a huge complex of interconnected chi flows. We may speak of that as illusion only in the sense that the individual forms are transient forms of the basic substance of reality, Ontological energy or Tao or whatever one wants to call it. ONly when that is entirely still without ripples of form do the illusions vanish
completely - a state prior to the big bang.

Recognition of the illusory nature of things is not making everything
(illusions) disappear, it is simply seeing that all the forms are themselves empty of any substance other than ontological energy or TAo or chi of Buddha nature stuff. Zen is not about making these basic illusions disappear, it is
recognizing that illusion is the world that exists.

Edgar

On Nov 3, 2008, at 3:16 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

Mayka,

I disagree with Edgar on this. Actually this is the same disagreement on which Edgar and I posted on previously concerning causation and eventually
abandoned our efforts.
- Edgar thinks reality is made up of many distinct (but sometimes related) things happening at either the same or different times. (At least that is my understanding of Edgar's general position. He can correct me if I'm wrong
in my assessment or if I'm not expressing it well.)
- I think reality is only one thing (Just THIS!), and there is only one time
(now).

So, my responses to you are that there is no 'you' doing anything, there is only ever one thing happening - Just THIS! and it is only ever happening
NOW. All the other concepts discussed in this post are illusions.

If you're walking, there is only walking. The entire universe is walking - now. If you're chewing gum, there is only chewing gum. The entire universe
is chewing gum - now.

In Zen Buddhism this is referred to as expressing your Buddha Nature. I
refer to this as Just THIS!

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 6:37 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Question?

Mayka,

You are missing my point. One's body is always doing many many things at once. One could not exist otherwise. Scores of muscles have to move together to make even the simplest motion. To speak tongue and lips and breath must all move at the same time. No one ever is doing just one thing. That is an
illusion.

Edgar

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