Hi Bill,

No, I believe reality is a single thing, namely the present moment, but that it manifests as illusion which is its discrimination and manifestations as multiple things within the present moment. This is the world we normally live in (except perhaps when we are in deepest meditation and most individual distinctions have dropped away). In this world of illusion we must deal with illusion as it appears, i.e. causally (or better than the 'we' merges back into the basic flows and moves according to them). We live in the world of illusion, of forms. We do have a lot of control to strip away many of the veils of illusion in this world, such as desires and delusions, but we cannot strip away the basic material forms and their causal relationships.

If I were to chew gum, the entire universe doesn't start chewing gum! What nonsense! The universe can certainly chew gum and walk and engage in myriad upon myriad of other things at the same time. The universe is a huge complex of interconnected chi flows. We may speak of that as illusion only in the sense that the individual forms are transient forms of the basic substance of reality, Ontological energy or Tao or whatever one wants to call it. ONly when that is entirely still without ripples of form do the illusions vanish completely - a state prior to the big bang.

Recognition of the illusory nature of things is not making everything (illusions) disappear, it is simply seeing that all the forms are themselves empty of any substance other than ontological energy or TAo or chi of Buddha nature stuff. Zen is not about making these basic illusions disappear, it is recognizing that illusion is the world that exists.


On Nov 3, 2008, at 3:16 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I disagree with Edgar on this. Actually this is the same disagreement on which Edgar and I posted on previously concerning causation and eventually
abandoned our efforts.
- Edgar thinks reality is made up of many distinct (but sometimes related) things happening at either the same or different times. (At least that is my understanding of Edgar's general position. He can correct me if I'm wrong
in my assessment or if I'm not expressing it well.)
- I think reality is only one thing (Just THIS!), and there is only one time

So, my responses to you are that there is no 'you' doing anything, there is only ever one thing happening - Just THIS! and it is only ever happening
NOW. All the other concepts discussed in this post are illusions.

If you're walking, there is only walking. The entire universe is walking - now. If you're chewing gum, there is only chewing gum. The entire universe
is chewing gum - now.

In Zen Buddhism this is referred to as expressing your Buddha Nature. I
refer to this as Just THIS!


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 6:37 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Question?


You are missing my point. One's body is always doing many many things at once. One could not exist otherwise. Scores of muscles have to move together to make even the simplest motion. To speak tongue and lips and breath must all move at the same time. No one ever is doing just one thing. That is an


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