Kirk wrote:
In this respect Zen shares a great deal in common with Sufism, although the 
methods might be a great deal different".
I've found it that while sensing through the universal heart beyond any duality 
there is no suffism and not even zen.  At those moments there is just,  what 
there is there free from any concepts or ideas.   eg: This last July during a 
holiday with some members of the family and visiting the place where we were 
born and grow I had a severe crisis of mobility. We were hosted in a private 
house.  And just the following day of our stay there I had a funny sensation in 
my body...and I knew at those moments that mobility crisis was on its way.  In 
fact just in a few minutes I tried to leave my bed and fallen on it.  and 
couldn't leave it.  (I suffer from a disability in my lower back and sometimes 
this leads me to severe crisis of mobility).  As I am very familiar with my 
body through the practice of zen I knew at those moments that I had to stay in 
bed that day and release that blockage of pain by stopping there just where I 
was.  No
 suffism, no mysticism of any kind....Just pure zen.  In the evening our 
hostess lend me a crutchet and not only I could leave my bed but also going for 
an out dinner.  The pain was still there, the mobility too but under control. 
And if you could see the photo the waitress took during that dinner you would 
see a shining face, though a bit marked by the pain.  And this is useful zen.  
Nice to hear from you again.  Thanks for the chat.
This post of course it doesn't intend to be a contradiction to yourself 
personal experience.  is intention is only to point it out that when all of a 
sudden an event, something happen to us, there is no more to it that just that 
present moment.  

--- On Fri, 10/9/10, <> wrote:

From: <>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
Date: Friday, 10 September, 2010, 8:57


In my estimation there really is no way to assert what Zen is, whether you are 
restricting it to zazen; or opening it to a wider religious and cultural 
discussion.  The best we can do is just admit we fall short and perhaps point 
to our own experience, to presence.  Of course we could ask ourselves who is 
being present?  
So repeating zazen zazen zazen with platitudes to support it, or explaining big 
Zen and little zen, does do much but tell us something about who is doing the 
talking and perhaps who is doing the listening here.  
I think it is safe to say that Zen is a path that addresses the experiential 
with zazen as its central methodology -- a sort of undoing of yourself, the 
conditioned cultural and experiential part of your personality that 
continuously reacts and feeds your ego.  
Think of it this way, while you are reading this you are already reacting 
inside in an automatic way.  Zen seeks to loosen the bounds of your false self 
and return you to your natural state.  Part of the reason why Zen honors 
spontaneity, clarity, nature and a sense of the primordial untouched mother 
that feeds us all.
In this respect Zen shares a great deal in common with Sufism, although the 
methods might be a great deal different.  
Best wishes
It shares a great deal of common

In a message dated 9/9/2010 10:55:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

In my direct experience there is nothing at all mystical about zen - nor is 
there anything mystical about it as the old Chinese masters taught it. And I do 
think this is why many people have such a hard time with zen - they are looking 
for something mystical, they cannot believe it really is that simple: "Everyday 
mind is zen mind" or "Marvelous spiritual power; chopping wood and carrying 
water!" or "If you want to understand zen directly, the normal mind is zen 
mind." And my favorite: "Someone asked Xuedou, 'What is the living meaning of 
zen?' Xuedou said, 'The mountains are high, the oceans are wide.' "

Until you "get it" these things don't seem to make sense and people think there 
must be some deep mystical thing they are missing. After you "get it" you 
realize it was there all along! ;-)


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