Kirk, I addressed some of this in a post that I wrote before I read your post here, and I hope that post adequately addressed my opinions on this subject. Additional comments specific to this post of yours are embedded below:
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 10:34 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill Dear Bill Well, no doubt much of what you say is true. Nevertheless, one can't keep from assessing Zen in this manner (mystical), which is a word like 'spiritual' that has lost its meaning, they both sort of twist in the wind at peoples convenience. [Bill!] Agreed! Having said that while Zen has much dialogue about the mundane, indeed, in many other traditions the mundane is, everyday, nothing special aspect is emphasized as well, particularly in it exoteric application. I don't think we can make the mistake of getting all Zenny and saying that Zen is a special case, something wholly different from other paths . . . the obviousness of this speaks for itself . . . [Bill!] I agree with the above statements, but probably not quite the same way you meant it. See my previous post about ‘zen’ being the kernel on which most religions are based. While I would agree that Zen puts forth a unique expression of nothing special, emphasizing Zazen and Shikan Taza, at the same time that cannot put Zen in a particularly advantageous category [Bill!] I do place Zen Buddhism (especially Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism teaching of shikan taza) in a little more advantageous position because it has the least amount of extraneous layers covering the kernel - at least in my opinion. . . . you might as well start saying that Jesus died for our sins if that is the case. The only thing we can safely assert is well, who is making the assertion about nothing special. [Bill!] I’m not sure what you meant by this, but the belief that Jesus died for our sins to me is just another example of the layers that tend to obscure the fundamental teaching of Jesus which is simply '...love one another' (John 13:34) So I would say that while I don't like the word mystical all that much, Zen Buddhism, at least Soto Zen, which I am familiar with, does have a mystical flavor to it. [Bill!] I was a student of a school that had a dual Japanese Soto/Renzai Zen Buddhist lineage for over 10 years and I never was made aware of any mystical teachings. Could you give me an example? Nothing special can't be special because its nothing special and others don't know that . . . that whole game is played way to much in the Zen Community. [Bill!] If this core zen teaching is played as a game or taught as something mystical (esoteric), I agree with your assessment. But this is the core teaching of zen. Nothing more than that. All else is extraneous and most likely detrimental. best wishes Kirk [Bill!] Bill!! In a message dated 9/8/2010 12:41:27 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: JMJM, You bring up a very good question. According to Merriam-Webster Online the definitions of these words and my opinion as how they could be applied to zen are: MYSTICAL 1:a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence [Bill!] Zen is not 'spiritual' and is definitely apparent to the senses, so this definition doesn't seem to fit. Zen is however not obvious, nor even accessible as far as I'm concerned, to the intelligence. b : involving or having the nature of an individual's direct subjective communion with God or ultimate reality [Bill!] This is pretty close, although I would take out the words 'subjective' and 'God or ultimate' which leaves 'direct communion with reality'. MYSTICISM 1: the experience of MYSTICAL union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by MYSTICS [Bill!] I could live with this definition. 2: the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight) [Bill!] Again, this is close, but I don't associate Buddha Nature with intuition or insight - although I know in the West these could be used as a poor substitute. 3:a : vague speculation : a belief without sound basis [Bill!] I don't like this one at all. b : a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of ineffable knowledge or power [Bill!] This is pretty close. I like the word 'ineffable'. That definitely fits. I don't like the words 'intuitive, acquisition, knowledge and power'. In English, 'mysticism' is generally associated with God or 'hidden' knowledge or insight. I associate zen with just everyday stuff. It's no big deal. ...Bill! From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - ???? Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:14 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill Dear all, I have a question. In Chinese, the Tibetan practice is literally translated as the "Mystic Order", the Chan practice is literally translated as the "Grand Mystic Order". Chan is the grand one, because Rong-Shu Patriarch brought the Chan to Tibet and affected their practice. In Chan 『秘密內證法』 "Mystic Inner Witness Dharma" means an inward practice enabling heart to heart witness of Buddha. That's all. There is really nothing mystic about it. Is the term "mystic or mysticism" means the same as the I described above or not? Much obliged, _/\_ JMJM On 9/7/2010 8:13 AM, DP wrote: That's kind of the point of the book. She is trying to bring mysticism down to Earth, as it were. She wants to show that not only monks can do it. --- In [email protected], <billsm...@...> wrote: > > DP, > > I haven't heard of this book, but it does sound interesting. > > I don't, however, associate mysticism with zen, or with `seeing the world as > it is' (which I do associate with zen). How could anyone call that > mysticism? Or with spiritualism as so many are wont to do? > > …Bill! > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf > Of DP > Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 9:22 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill > > > I recently downloaded this ebook from a public domain site (the book is > nearly 100 year old) and I have to say I'm very impressed with it. Underhill > was an ANglo-Catholic, but her main focus is on how anyone can appreciate > the mysticism of everyday life by seeing the world as it is, without > categorization. I think this sounds very Zen, and I wonder if anyone else > had read it. > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5429 (20100906) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5429 (20100906) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5432 (20100907) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5432 (20100907) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5435 (20100908) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5435 (20100908) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5435 (20100908) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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