Kirk,

I addressed some of this in a post that I wrote before I read your post here, 
and I hope that post adequately addressed my opinions on this subject.  
Additional comments specific to this post of yours are embedded below:

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
novelid...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 10:34 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill

  
Dear Bill
 
Well, no doubt much of what you say is true.  Nevertheless, one can't keep from 
assessing Zen in this manner (mystical), which is a word like 'spiritual' that 
has lost its meaning, they both sort of twist in the wind at peoples 
convenience.
[Bill!] Agreed!

Having said that while Zen has much dialogue about the mundane, indeed, in many 
other traditions the mundane is, everyday, nothing special aspect is emphasized 
as well, particularly in it exoteric application.  I don't think we can make 
the mistake of getting all Zenny and saying that Zen is a special case, 
something wholly different from other paths . . . the obviousness of this 
speaks for itself . . .
[Bill!] I agree with the above statements, but probably not quite the same way 
you meant it.  See my previous post about ‘zen’ being the kernel on which most 
religions are based.

 While I would agree that Zen puts forth a unique expression of nothing 
special, emphasizing Zazen and Shikan Taza, at the same time that cannot put 
Zen in a particularly advantageous category
[Bill!] I do place Zen Buddhism (especially Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism teaching 
of shikan taza) in a little more advantageous position because it has the least 
amount of extraneous layers covering the kernel - at least in my opinion.

 . . . you might as well start saying that Jesus died for our sins if that is 
the case.  The only thing we can safely assert is well, who is making the 
assertion about nothing special.
[Bill!] I’m not sure what you meant by this, but the belief that Jesus died for 
our sins to me is just another example of the layers that tend to obscure the 
fundamental teaching of Jesus which is simply '...love one another' (John 13:34)
 

So I would say that while I don't like the word mystical all that much, Zen 
Buddhism, at least Soto Zen, which I am familiar with, does have a mystical 
flavor to it.
[Bill!] I was a student of a school that had a dual Japanese Soto/Renzai Zen 
Buddhist lineage for over 10 years and I never was made aware of any mystical 
teachings.  Could you give me an example?

Nothing special can't be special because its nothing special and others don't 
know that . . . that whole game is played way to much in the Zen Community.
[Bill!] If this core zen teaching is played as a game or taught as something 
mystical (esoteric), I agree with your assessment.  But this is the core 
teaching of zen.  Nothing more than that.  All else is extraneous and most 
likely detrimental.
 
best wishes
 
Kirk
[Bill!] Bill!!
 
In a message dated 9/8/2010 12:41:27 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
billsm...@hhs1963.org writes:
  
JMJM,

You bring up a very good question.

According to Merriam-Webster Online the definitions of these words and my 
opinion as how they could be applied to zen are:

MYSTICAL
1:a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the 
senses nor obvious to the intelligence
[Bill!] Zen is not 'spiritual' and is definitely apparent to the senses, so 
this definition doesn't seem to fit. Zen is however not obvious, nor even 
accessible as far as I'm concerned, to the intelligence.
b : involving or having the nature of an individual's direct subjective 
communion with God or ultimate reality
[Bill!] This is pretty close, although I would take out the words 'subjective' 
and 'God or ultimate' which leaves 'direct communion with reality'.

MYSTICISM
1: the experience of MYSTICAL union or direct communion with ultimate reality 
reported by MYSTICS
[Bill!] I could live with this definition. 
2: the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate 
reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)
[Bill!] Again, this is close, but I don't associate Buddha Nature with 
intuition or insight - although I know in the West these could be used as a 
poor substitute. 
3:a : vague speculation : a belief without sound basis
[Bill!] I don't like this one at all.
b : a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of 
ineffable knowledge or power 
[Bill!] This is pretty close. I like the word 'ineffable'. That definitely 
fits. I don't like the words 'intuitive, acquisition, knowledge and power'.

In English, 'mysticism' is generally associated with God or 'hidden' knowledge 
or insight. I associate zen with just everyday stuff. It's no big deal.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jue Miao Jing Ming - ????
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:14 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill

Dear all, 

I have a question. In Chinese, the Tibetan practice is literally translated as 
the "Mystic Order", the Chan practice is literally translated as the "Grand 
Mystic Order". Chan is the grand one, because Rong-Shu Patriarch brought the 
Chan to Tibet and affected their practice.

In Chan 『秘密內證法』 "Mystic Inner Witness Dharma" means an inward practice enabling 
heart to heart witness of Buddha. That's all. There is really nothing mystic 
about it.

Is the term "mystic or mysticism" means the same as the I described above or 
not?

Much obliged,
_/\_
JMJM

On 9/7/2010 8:13 AM, DP wrote: 

That's kind of the point of the book. She is trying to bring mysticism down to 
Earth, as it were. She wants to show that not only monks can do it.

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <billsm...@...> wrote:
>
> DP,
> 
> I haven't heard of this book, but it does sound interesting.
> 
> I don't, however, associate mysticism with zen, or with `seeing the world as
> it is' (which I do associate with zen). How could anyone call that
> mysticism? Or with spiritualism as so many are wont to do?
> 
> …Bill!
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of DP
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 9:22 PM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
> 
> 
> I recently downloaded this ebook from a public domain site (the book is
> nearly 100 year old) and I have to say I'm very impressed with it. Underhill
> was an ANglo-Catholic, but her main focus is on how anyone can appreciate
> the mysticism of everyday life by seeing the world as it is, without
> categorization. I think this sounds very Zen, and I wonder if anyone else
> had read it.
> 
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 5429 (20100906) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 5429 (20100906) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
>

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5432 (20100907) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5432 (20100907) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5435 (20100908) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5435 (20100908) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5435 (20100908) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



------------------------------------

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
    zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Reply via email to