--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
>
> DP,
> 
> Never said I thought it was "offensive", so you can't plead innocent when 
> there 
> was no charge in the first place. I understand your point/frustration if you 
> were trying to discuss a specific situation or particular point about 
> religion 
> and were meet with arguments about religion in general (even tho I'd 
> probably 
> agree with those sentiments). Understood.
> 
> Mike 
> 

Actually, Im not sure what you claim my offense was. You addressed me, I 
responded. 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: DP <wookielife...@...>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 21:36:02
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
> 
>   
> 
> Am I jumping in on your comment to someone else? I don't care, because 
> apparently being "offensive" isn't a crime.
> 
> In the original case that i was writing about, it was the lack of respect for 
> the forum that was frustrating me. There was never any consideration that 
> religious belief might sustain people in political struggles.
> 
> I just heard an interview with Ingrid Betancourt, the woman who was captured 
> by 
> rebels in Colombia for six years. One of the things that sustained her was 
> her 
> religious beliefs. That's the type of thing I'd like to discuss on this 
> forum. 
> Instead I get nothing more than "all religion is evil."
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >
> > Mayka,
> > 
> > I think so, too. that's my point about people bleating about being 
> > "offended" 
> >as 
> >
> > though that settles the argument or ends it.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@>
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 23:49:40
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> >church.
> > 
> >   
> > Mike:
> > 
> > There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an 
> > aggression.  It's something that is happening more and more. This 
> > what you're 
> >
> > raising is actually a very good point.  This point was discussed in a 
> > group of 
> >
> > friends while I was in Spain this last July.  We were talking that 
> > before 
> >there 
> >
> > was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that 
> > repression 
> >
> > comes in a psycological way.  As soon as one expresses something that is 
> > going 
> >
> > to be a critic that has an impact,  then very quickly comes out abusive 
> > behaviour, agression etc, etc.  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > >From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@>
> > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > church.
> > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > >Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >Mayka,
> > >
> > >I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the 
> > >problem 
> >is 
> >
> > >that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. 
> > >That 
> > >action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London 
> > >during 
> >the 
> >
> > >pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some 
> > >people 
> >
> > >will always label assertion as 'agressive'.
> > >
> > >Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@>
> > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > >Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06
> > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > church.
> > >
> > >  
> > >Mike:
> > > 
> > >In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong 
> >temperament, 
> >
> > >I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is 
> > >showed.  
> >The 
> >
> > >same if that is verbal, physical or psycological.  I have enough hard 
> > >work to 
> >
> > >tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all  
> > >hard 
> >work 
> >
> > >done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a 
> > >situation, provocation, dissapointment.....Trust me Mike that aggression 
> > >is 
> >not 
> >
> > >the way unless your life is an stake.  I mean by that if someone comes 
> > >with a 
> >
> > >knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed 
> >by someone. Allowing 
> >
> > >someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down 
> > >death on 
> >
> > >the floor will be very silly .
> > > 
> > >However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to 
> > >me.  Apart 
> >from 
> >
> > >the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been 
> > >expulsed by 
> >
> > >the catholic church centuries ago.  There are political 
> > >implications.  
> >Even if 
> >
> > >the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would 
> > >have 
> 
> > >been the same.  Politics and religion competition between different 
> > >christian 
> >
> > >denominations are notorious through history.
> > > 
> > >Mayka  
> > >
> > >--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@>
> > >>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > >church.
> > >>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > >>Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  
> > >>Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
> > >>"aggresive and destructive" criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The 
> >recent 
> >
> > >>demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. 
> > >>Here 
> >is 
> >
> > >>the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under 
> > >>the 
> > >>carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. 
> > >>And 
> >
> > >>what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
> > >>He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in 
> > >>Germany. Wanker! 
> >He 
> >
> > >>should be locked up. I'm serious.
> > >>
> > >>Mike 
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > ________________________________
> > From: maria818448 <flordeloto@>
> > >>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > >>Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23
> > >>Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > >>church.
> > >>
> > >>  
> > >>Hi Mike again:
> > >>
> > >>I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from 
> > >>the 
> >zen 
> >
> > >>fourm went missed out such as this one from you. 
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive 
> > >>criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to 
> >his/her 
> >
> > >>object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is 
> >necessary 
> >
> > >>the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well 
> > >>criticism 
> >makes 
> >
> > >>even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and 
> > >>makes 
> > >>critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely 
> > >>and 
> >let 
> >
> > >>you on the side....And that of course is very irritating and can lead to 
> >anger 
> >
> > >>later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but 
> > >>as 
> >soon 
> >
> > >>one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to 
> > >>the 
> > >>established power in the institution....WoooooooW!!!. 
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Mayka 
> > >>
> > >>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Mayka,
> > >>> 
> > >>> It goes waaaaaaaaay beyond mere "disappontment" in any established 
> >religious 
> >
> > 
> > >>> institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a "free pass" 
> >from 
> >
> > 
> > >>> criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
> > >>> goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
> >behaviours 
> >
> > >>>
> > >>> etc. What is it about religion that can claim "I'm offended" as a valid 
> > >>>argument 
> > >>>
> > >>> against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
> >probably 
> >
> > >>>
> > >>> think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
> > >>> scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in 
> > >>> a 
> > >>> bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the 
> >institutionalised 
> >
> > 
> > >>> cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
> > >>> 
> > >>> Mike
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> ________________________________
> > >>> From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@>
> > >>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in 
> > >>> your 
> > >>>church.
> > >>> 
> > >>>   
> > >>> Hi Mike and Everyone!
> > >>>  
> > >>> If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
> >institution 
> >
> > >>
> > >>> whether that dissapointment was in Christian, 
> > >>> Muslim, Jew, 
> >Buddhist, Zen 
> >
> > >>> Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  
> > >>> afterwards acts as a 
> >destructor 
> >
> > >>>towards 
> > >>>
> > >>> the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't 
> > >>> sound 
> >a 
> >
> > >
> > >>> very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include 
> > >>> myself in 
> >this 
> >
> > 
> > >>> unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment 
> > >>> in 
> >the 
> >
> > >>
> > >>> TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
> > >>>as irrespetuos 
> > >>>
> > >>> or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly 
> > >>> behaviour in 
> >front of 
> >
> > 
> > >>> Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the 
> > >>> instituions 
> 
> > >>> established but just to the ones who carries away such violent 
> > >>> shows. 
> > >>>  
> > >>>  When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was 
> > >>> me all the way 
> >alone 
> >
> > >>>who 
> > >>>
> > >>> built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused 
> > >>> herself 
> >the 
> >
> > >>> dissapointment for building a pedestal of "holiness, peace....to the 
> > >>> institution".  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing 
> > >>> this within 
> >myself I 
> >
> > >>>am 
> > >>>
> > >>> now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced 
> > >>> in 
> >the 
> >
> > >
> > >>> walk of zen buddhism.
> > >>>  
> > >>>   I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because 
> > >>> I never 
> >built 
> >
> > >>>up 
> > >>>
> > >>> a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always 
> > >>> healthy 
> >and 
> >
> > 
> > >>> positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion 
> > >>> in a 
> > >>>pedestal.  I 
> > >>>
> > >>> saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit 
> > >>> from it and 
> >never 
> >
> > >>
> > >>> the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
> > >>>  
> > >>> Mayka
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> >From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@>
> > >>> >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in 
> > >>> >your 
> > >>> church.
> > >>> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> >Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >  
> > >>> >Kristy,
> > >>> >
> > >>> >You wrote:  "If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they 
> > >>> >are 
> >ignorant 
> >
> > >>> >about."  
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once 
> >believers 
> >
> > >>
> > >>> >who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. 
> > >>> >Moreover, 
> >I am 
> >
> > >>>
> > >>> >ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble 
> > >>> >rejecting 
> >their 
> >
> > >>>
> > >>> >beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
> > >>> >
> > >>> >Mike
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >
> >
>




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