--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
>
> DP,
> 
> It was a rhetorical point, but I'll accept your apology.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 


I didn't offer one. And apparently giving offense is not a crime.
As well, I seem to recall that you essentially inserted yourself into this 
discussion in the first place. Perhaps it was unwise of me to specify the 
nature of the arguments I was having, but the moment I mentioned religion and 
politics, you champed at the bit. 


And I have continuously pointed out that in my rather mainstream Church I have 
never felt that I wasn't allowed to think, so  I refuse to include your (pardon 
my language) asinine, bumper-sticker sentiment in my subject line. 


> 
> ________________________________
> From: DP <wookielife...@...>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 7:49:15
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
> 
>   
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >
> > DP,
> > 
> > That post was addressed to Mayka so I don't know why you felt you were 
> > called 
> > upon on to defend the pope. 
> > 
> 
> Perhaps because you wrote "(are you listening DP?)" So yes, you did address 
> me.
> 
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > ps, you don't have to tell me about religious people disagreeing on things. 
> > It 
> 
> > usually involves them killing each other about whose god is the most 
> > peaceful.
> > 
> You don't need religion to have people kill each other over disagreements...
> 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:40:29
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
> > 
> >   
> > I am not a Catholic, nor am I a fan of the current pope, who was part of 
> > the 
> > mechanations to put down Liberation Theology, one of the positive thing 
> > that 
> >has 
> >
> > come out of the Catholic Church. I feel no need to defend Ratzinger, so you 
> > are 
> >
> > indeed barking up the wrong tree.
> > 
> > Gosh, religious people disagree on stuff! How shocking!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
> > > "aggresive and destructive" criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The 
> >recent 
> >
> > >
> > > demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. 
> > > Here 
> >is 
> >
> > 
> > > the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed 
> > > under the 
> >
> > > carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. 
> > > And 
> >
> > > what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
> > > He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in 
> > > Germany. Wanker! 
> >He 
> >
> > 
> > > should be locked up. I'm serious.
> > > 
> > > Mike 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: maria818448 <flordeloto@>
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > > church.
> > > 
> > >   
> > > Hi Mike again:
> > > 
> > > I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from 
> > > the 
> 
> > >zen 
> > >
> > > fourm went missed out such as this one from you. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive 
> > > criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to 
> >his/her 
> >
> > >
> > > object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is 
> >necessary 
> >
> > >
> > > the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well 
> > > criticism 
> > >makes 
> > >
> > > even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and 
> > > makes 
> > > critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely 
> > > and 
> >let 
> >
> > >
> > > you on the side....And that of course is very irritating and can lead to 
> >anger 
> >
> > 
> > > later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but 
> > > as 
> > >soon 
> > >
> > > one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to 
> > > the 
> > > established power in the institution....WoooooooW!!!. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Mayka 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mayka,
> > > > 
> > > > It goes waaaaaaaaay beyond mere "disappontment" in any established 
> >religious 
> >
> > 
> > > > institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a "free pass" 
> >from 
> >
> > 
> > > > criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
> > > > goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
> > >behaviours 
> > >
> > > >
> > > > etc. What is it about religion that can claim "I'm offended" as a valid 
> > > >argument 
> > > >
> > > > against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
> > >probably 
> > >
> > > >
> > > > think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
> > > > scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in 
> > > > a 
> > > > bronze-age myth.ÃÆ'‚ And I'm not even going to begin 
> > > > with the 
> > >institutionalised 
> > >
> > > > cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
> > > > 
> > > > Mike
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@>
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in 
> > > > your 
> > > >church.
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > Hi Mike and Everyone!
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
> > >institution 
> > >
> > > 
> > > > whetherÃÆ'‚ that 
> > > > dissapointmentÃÆ'‚ wasÃÆ'‚ in Christian, 
> >Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, 
> >
> > >Zen 
> > >
> > > > Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ andÃÆ'‚  
> >afterwardsÃÆ'‚ acts asÃÆ'‚ a 
> >
> > >destructor 
> > >
> > > >towards 
> > > >
> > > > the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't 
> > > > sound 
> >a 
> >
> > >
> > > > very wise way of doing towards oneself.ÃÆ'‚  I certainly 
> > > > include myself 
> >in 
> >
> > >this 
> > >
> > > > unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment 
> > > > in 
> 
> > >the 
> > >
> > > 
> > > > TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
> > > >asÃÆ'‚ irrespetuos 
> > > >
> > > > or destructiveÃÆ'‚ as many atheists show themselves ugly 
> >behaviourÃÆ'‚ in front 
> >
> > >of 
> > >
> > > > Christianity.ÃÆ'‚  This harmful way of doing doesn't 
> > > > affect the 
> >instituions 
> >
> > > > established but just to the ones who carries away such violent 
> >shows.ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ When I look deeply into myself, 
> > > > IÃÆ'‚ realice that it was me 
> >all the way 
> >
> > >alone 
> > >
> > > >who 
> > > >
> > > > built up a pedestal to that institution.ÃÆ'‚  It was me 
> > > > who caused 
> >herself the 
> >
> > >
> > > > dissapointment for building a pedestal of "holiness, peace....to the 
> > > > institution".ÃÆ'‚  They weren't the 
> > > > ones!!!.ÃÆ'‚ Having seeing this 
> >within 
> >
> > >myself I 
> > >
> > > >am 
> > > >
> > > > now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced 
> > > > in 
> >the 
> >
> > >
> > > > walk of zen buddhism.
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian 
> > > > institutions because I 
> >never 
> >
> > >built 
> > >
> > > >up 
> > > >
> > > > a pedestal to the instituion!.ÃÆ'‚  And so my experience 
> > > > was always 
> >healthy 
> >
> > >and 
> > >
> > > > positive.ÃÆ'‚  It was positive because I never put that 
> > > > instituion in a 
> >
> > > >pedestal.ÃÆ'‚  I 
> > > >
> > > > saw it for what it was.ÃÆ'‚  And so I could get all the 
> > > > benefit from it 
> >and 
> >
> > >never 
> > >
> > > 
> > > > the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > Mayka
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > >From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@>
> > > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in 
> > > > >your 
> > > > church.
> > > > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > >Kristy,
> > > > >
> > > > >You wrote:ÃÆ'‚  "If you have faith, there is a whole 
> > > > >sphere they are 
> >ignorant 
> >
> > >
> > > > >about."ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once 
> > >believers 
> > >
> > > 
> > > > >who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. 
> > > > >Moreover, 
> >I 
> >
> > >am 
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >ignorant of what it is to be aÃÆ'‚ neo-nazis, but have 
> > > > >no trouble 
> >rejecting 
> >
> > >their 
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > >Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > DP,
> >
>




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