Mayka,

I think so, too. that's my point about people bleating about being "offended" 
as 
though that settles the argument or ends it.

Mike




________________________________
From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 23:49:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Mike:

There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an 
aggression.  It's something that is happening more and more. This what you're 
raising is actually a very good point.  This point was discussed in a group of 
friends while I was in Spain this last July.  We were talking that before there 
was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that repression 
comes in a psycological way.  As soon as one expresses something that is going 
to be a critic that has an impact,  then very quickly comes out abusive 
behaviour, agression etc, etc.  




--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


>From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44
>
>
>  
>Mayka,
>
>I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem 
>is 
>that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That 
>action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during 
>the 
>pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people 
>will always label assertion as 'agressive'.
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com>
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
>
>  
>Mike:
> 
>In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong 
>temperament, 
>I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is showed.  The 
>same if that is verbal, physical or psycological.  I have enough hard work to 
>tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all  hard work 
>done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a 
>situation, provocation, dissapointment.....Trust me Mike that aggression is 
>not 
>the way unless your life is an stake.  I mean by that if someone comes with a 
>knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed by someone. Allowing 
>someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death on 
>the floor will be very silly .
> 
>However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me.  Apart 
>from 
>the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by 
>the catholic church centuries ago.  There are political implications.  Even if 
>the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have 
>been the same.  Politics and religion competition between different christian 
>denominations are notorious through history.
> 
>Mayka  
>
>--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
>church.
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28
>>
>>
>>  
>>Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
>>"aggresive and destructive" criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The 
>>recent 
>>demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here 
>>is 
>>the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the 
>>carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And 
>>what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
>>He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He 
>>should be locked up. I'm serious.
>>
>>Mike 
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
From: maria818448 <flordel...@btinternet.com>
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23
>>Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
>>
>>  
>>Hi Mike again:
>>
>>I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the 
>>zen 
>>fourm went missed out such as this one from you. 
>>
>>
>>My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive 
>>criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to 
>>his/her 
>>object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is 
>>necessary 
>>the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism 
>>makes 
>>even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes 
>>critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and 
>>let 
>>you on the side....And that of course is very irritating and can lead to 
>>anger 
>>later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as 
>>soon 
>>one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the 
>>established power in the institution....WoooooooW!!!. 
>>
>>
>>Mayka 
>>
>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mayka,
>>> 
>>> It goes waaaaaaaaay beyond mere "disappontment" in any established 
>>> religious 

>>> institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a "free pass" 
>>> from 

>>> criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
>>> goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
>>> behaviours 
>>>
>>> etc. What is it about religion that can claim "I'm offended" as a valid 
>>>argument 
>>>
>>> against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
>>> probably 
>>>
>>> think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
>>> scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
>>> bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the 
>>> institutionalised 

>>> cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@...>
>>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
>>>church.
>>> 
>>>   
>>> Hi Mike and Everyone!
>>>  
>>> If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
>>> institution 
>>
>>> whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
>>> Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor 
>>>towards 
>>>
>>> the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound 
>>> a 
>
>>> very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in 
>>> this 

>>> unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in 
>>> the 
>>
>>> TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
>>>as irrespetuos 
>>>
>>> or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front 
>>> of 

>>> Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions 
>>> established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. 
>>>  
>>>  When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way 
>>> alone 
>>>who 
>>>
>>> built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
>>> dissapointment for building a pedestal of "holiness, peace....to the 
>>> institution".  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself 
>>> I 
>>>am 
>>>
>>> now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in 
>>> the 
>
>>> walk of zen buddhism.
>>>  
>>>   I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never 
>>> built 
>>>up 
>>>
>>> a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy 
>>> and 

>>> positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a 
>>>pedestal.  I 
>>>
>>> saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and 
>>> never 
>>
>>> the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
>>>  
>>> Mayka
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> >From: mike brown <uerusub...@...>
>>> >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
>>> church.
>>> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>> >Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >  
>>> >Kristy,
>>> >
>>> >You wrote:  "If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
>>> >about."  
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once 
>>> >believers 
>>
>>> >who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, 
>>> >I am 
>>>
>>> >ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting 
>>> >their 
>>>
>>> >beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
>>> >
>>> >Mike
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
> 



      

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