Mayka, I think so, too. that's my point about people bleating about being "offended" as though that settles the argument or ends it.
Mike ________________________________ From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 23:49:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike: There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an aggression. It's something that is happening more and more. This what you're raising is actually a very good point. This point was discussed in a group of friends while I was in Spain this last July. We were talking that before there was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that repression comes in a psycological way. As soon as one expresses something that is going to be a critic that has an impact, then very quickly comes out abusive behaviour, agression etc, etc. --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44 > > > >Mayka, > >I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem >is >that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That >action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during >the >pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people >will always label assertion as 'agressive'. > >Mike > > > > ________________________________ From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06 >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. > > >Mike: > >In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong >temperament, >I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is showed. The >same if that is verbal, physical or psycological. I have enough hard work to >tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all hard work >done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a >situation, provocation, dissapointment.....Trust me Mike that aggression is >not >the way unless your life is an stake. I mean by that if someone comes with a >knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed by someone. Allowing >someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death on >the floor will be very silly . > >However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me. Apart >from >the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by >the catholic church centuries ago. There are political implications. Even if >the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have >been the same. Politics and religion competition between different christian >denominations are notorious through history. > >Mayka > >--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > >>From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your >church. >>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >>Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28 >> >> >> >>Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that >>"aggresive and destructive" criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The >>recent >>demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here >>is >>the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the >>carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And >>what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?) >>He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He >>should be locked up. I'm serious. >> >>Mike >> >> >> ________________________________ From: maria818448 <flordel...@btinternet.com> >>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23 >>Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. >> >> >>Hi Mike again: >> >>I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the >>zen >>fourm went missed out such as this one from you. >> >> >>My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive >>criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to >>his/her >>object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is >>necessary >>the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism >>makes >>even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes >>critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and >>let >>you on the side....And that of course is very irritating and can lead to >>anger >>later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as >>soon >>one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the >>established power in the institution....WoooooooW!!!. >> >> >>Mayka >> >>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote: >>> >>> Mayka, >>> >>> It goes waaaaaaaaay beyond mere "disappontment" in any established >>> religious >>> institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a "free pass" >>> from >>> criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; >>> goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable >>> behaviours >>> >>> etc. What is it about religion that can claim "I'm offended" as a valid >>>argument >>> >>> against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd >>> probably >>> >>> think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming >>> scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a >>> bronze-age myth.Â And I'm not even going to begin with the >>> institutionalised >>> cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@...> >>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >>> Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your >>>church. >>> >>> Â >>> Hi Mike and Everyone! >>> Â >>> If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious >>> institution >> >>> whetherÂ that dissapointmentÂ wasÂ in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen >>> Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: Â andÂ afterwardsÂ acts asÂ a destructor >>>towards >>> >>> the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound >>> a > >>> very wise way of doing towards oneself.Â I certainly include myself in >>> this >>> unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in >>> the >> >>> TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never >>>asÂ irrespetuos >>> >>> or destructiveÂ as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviourÂ in front >>> of >>> Christianity.Â This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions >>> established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows.Â >>> Â >>> Â When I look deeply into myself, IÂ realice that it was me all the way >>> alone >>>who >>> >>> built up a pedestal to that institution.Â It was me who caused herself the >>> dissapointment for building a pedestal of "holiness, peace....to the >>> institution".Â They weren't the ones!!!.Â Having seeing this within myself >>> I >>>am >>> >>> now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in >>> the > >>> walk of zen buddhism. >>> Â >>> Â I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never >>> built >>>up >>> >>> a pedestal to the instituion!.Â And so my experience was always healthy >>> and >>> positive.Â It was positive because I never put that instituion in a >>>pedestal.Â I >>> >>> saw it for what it was.Â And so I could get all the benefit from it and >>> never >> >>> the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. >>> Â >>> Mayka >>> >>> >>> --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >From: mike brown <uerusub...@...> >>> >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your >>> church. >>> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >>> >Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 >>> > >>> > >>> >Â >>> >Kristy, >>> > >>> >You wrote:Â "If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant >>> >about."Â >>> > >>> > >>> >However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once >>> >believers >> >>> >who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, >>> >I am >>> >>> >ignorant of what it is to be aÂ neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting >>> >their >>> >>> >beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. >>> > >>> >Mike >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> >> >