DP,

Never said I thought it was "offensive", so you can't plead innocent when there 
was no charge in the first place. I understand your point/frustration if you 
were trying to discuss a specific situation or particular point about religion 
and were meet with arguments about religion in general (even tho I'd probably 
agree with those sentiments). Understood.

Mike 




________________________________
From: DP <wookielife...@yahoo.ca>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 21:36:02
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

Am I jumping in on your comment to someone else? I don't care, because 
apparently being "offensive" isn't a crime.

In the original case that i was writing about, it was the lack of respect for 
the forum that was frustrating me. There was never any consideration that 
religious belief might sustain people in political struggles.

I just heard an interview with Ingrid Betancourt, the woman who was captured by 
rebels in Colombia for six years. One of the things that sustained her was her 
religious beliefs. That's the type of thing I'd like to discuss on this forum. 
Instead I get nothing more than "all religion is evil."

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
>
> Mayka,
> 
> I think so, too. that's my point about people bleating about being "offended" 
>as 
>
> though that settles the argument or ends it.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@...>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 23:49:40
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
>church.
> 
>   
> Mike:
> 
> There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an 
> aggression.  It's something that is happening more and more. This what 
> you're 
>
> raising is actually a very good point.  This point was discussed in a group 
> of 
>
> friends while I was in Spain this last July.  We were talking that before 
>there 
>
> was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that 
> repression 
>
> comes in a psycological way.  As soon as one expresses something that is 
> going 
>
> to be a critic that has an impact,  then very quickly comes out abusive 
> behaviour, agression etc, etc.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> >From: mike brown <uerusub...@...>
> >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> church.
> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44
> >
> >
> >  
> >Mayka,
> >
> >I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem 
>is 
>
> >that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That 
> >action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during 
>the 
>
> >pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some 
> >people 
>
> >will always label assertion as 'agressive'.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ________________________________
> From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@...>
> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06
> >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> church.
> >
> >  
> >Mike:
> > 
> >In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong 
>temperament, 
>
> >I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is 
> >showed.  
>The 
>
> >same if that is verbal, physical or psycological.  I have enough hard work 
> >to 
>
> >tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all  hard 
>work 
>
> >done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a 
> >situation, provocation, dissapointment.....Trust me Mike that aggression is 
>not 
>
> >the way unless your life is an stake.  I mean by that if someone comes with 
> >a 
>
> >knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed 
>by someone. Allowing 
>
> >someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death 
> >on 
>
> >the floor will be very silly .
> > 
> >However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me.  Apart 
>from 
>
> >the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed 
> >by 
>
> >the catholic church centuries ago.  There are political implications.  
>Even if 
>
> >the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would 
> >have 

> >been the same.  Politics and religion competition between different 
> >christian 
>
> >denominations are notorious through history.
> > 
> >Mayka  
> >
> >--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>From: mike brown <uerusub...@...>
> >>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> >church.
> >>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >>Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28
> >>
> >>
> >>  
> >>Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
> >>"aggresive and destructive" criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The 
>recent 
>
> >>demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here 
>is 
>
> >>the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the 
> >>carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. 
> >>And 
>
> >>what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
> >>He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! 
>He 
>
> >>should be locked up. I'm serious.
> >>
> >>Mike 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ________________________________
> From: maria818448 <flordel...@...>
> >>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >>Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23
> >>Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
> >>
> >>  
> >>Hi Mike again:
> >>
> >>I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from 
> >>the 
>zen 
>
> >>fourm went missed out such as this one from you. 
> >>
> >>
> >>My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive 
> >>criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to 
>his/her 
>
> >>object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is 
>necessary 
>
> >>the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism 
>makes 
>
> >>even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes 
> >>critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and 
>let 
>
> >>you on the side....And that of course is very irritating and can lead to 
>anger 
>
> >>later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as 
>soon 
>
> >>one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the 
> >>established power in the institution....WoooooooW!!!. 
> >>
> >>
> >>Mayka 
> >>
> >>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Mayka,
> >>> 
> >>> It goes waaaaaaaaay beyond mere "disappontment" in any established 
>religious 
>
> 
> >>> institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a "free pass" 
>from 
>
> 
> >>> criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
> >>> goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
>behaviours 
>
> >>>
> >>> etc. What is it about religion that can claim "I'm offended" as a valid 
> >>>argument 
> >>>
> >>> against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
>probably 
>
> >>>
> >>> think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
> >>> scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
> >>> bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the 
>institutionalised 
>
> 
> >>> cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
> >>> 
> >>> Mike
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@>
> >>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
> >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> >>>church.
> >>> 
> >>>   
> >>> Hi Mike and Everyone!
> >>>  
> >>> If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
>institution 
>
> >>
> >>> whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, 
>Buddhist, Zen 
>
> >>> Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a 
>destructor 
>
> >>>towards 
> >>>
> >>> the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't 
> >>> sound 
>a 
>
> >
> >>> very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in 
>this 
>
> 
> >>> unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment 
> >>> in 
>the 
>
> >>
> >>> TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
> >>>as irrespetuos 
> >>>
> >>> or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in 
>front of 
>
> 
> >>> Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the 
> >>> instituions 

> >>> established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. 
> >>>  
> >>>  When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the 
> >>> way 
>alone 
>
> >>>who 
> >>>
> >>> built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself 
>the 
>
> >>> dissapointment for building a pedestal of "holiness, peace....to the 
> >>> institution".  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within 
>myself I 
>
> >>>am 
> >>>
> >>> now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in 
>the 
>
> >
> >>> walk of zen buddhism.
> >>>  
> >>>   I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I 
> >>> never 
>built 
>
> >>>up 
> >>>
> >>> a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always 
> >>> healthy 
>and 
>
> 
> >>> positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a 
> >>>pedestal.  I 
> >>>
> >>> saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it 
> >>> and 
>never 
>
> >>
> >>> the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
> >>>  
> >>> Mayka
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> >From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@>
> >>> >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> >>> church.
> >>> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >>> >Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >  
> >>> >Kristy,
> >>> >
> >>> >You wrote:  "If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are 
>ignorant 
>
> >>> >about."  
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once 
>believers 
>
> >>
> >>> >who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. 
> >>> >Moreover, 
>I am 
>
> >>>
> >>> >ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble 
> >>> >rejecting 
>their 
>
> >>>
> >>> >beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
> >>> >
> >>> >Mike
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >
>





      

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