Mike: There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an aggression. It's something that is happening more and more. This what you're raising is actually a very good point. This point was discussed in a group of friends while I was in Spain this last July. We were talking that before there was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that repression comes in a psycological way. As soon as one expresses something that is going to be a critic that has an impact, then very quickly comes out abusive behaviour, agression etc, etc.
--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44 Mayka, I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem is that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during the pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people will always label assertion as 'agressive'. Mike From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike: In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong temperament, I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is showed. The same if that is verbal, physical or psycological. I have enough hard work to tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all hard work done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a situation, provocation, dissapointment.....Trust me Mike that aggression is not the way unless your life is an stake. I mean by that if someone comes with a knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed by someone. Allowing someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death on the floor will be very silly . However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me. Apart from the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by the catholic church centuries ago. There are political implications. Even if the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have been the same. Politics and religion competition between different christian denominations are notorious through history. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28 Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that "aggresive and destructive" criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?) He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He should be locked up. I'm serious. Mike From: maria818448 <flordel...@btinternet.com> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike again: I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the zen fourm went missed out such as this one from you. My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to his/her object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is necessary the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism makes even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and let you on the side....And that of course is very irritating and can lead to anger later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as soon one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the established power in the institution....WoooooooW!!!. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote: > > Mayka, > > It goes waaaaaaaaay beyond mere "disappontment" in any established religious > institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a "free pass" from > criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; > goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable > behaviours > etc. What is it about religion that can claim "I'm offended" as a valid > argument > against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd > probably > think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming > scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a > bronze-age myth.Â And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised > cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. > > Mike > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@...> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your > church. > > Â > Hi Mike and Everyone! > Â > If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious > institution > whetherÂ that dissapointmentÂ wasÂ in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen > Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: Â andÂ afterwardsÂ acts asÂ a destructor > towards > the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a > very wise way of doing towards oneself.Â I certainly include myself in this > unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in > the > TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never > asÂ irrespetuos > or destructiveÂ as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviourÂ in front of > Christianity.Â This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions > established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows.Â > Â > Â When I look deeply into myself, IÂ realice that it was me all the way alone > who > built up a pedestal to that institution.Â It was me who caused herself the > dissapointment for building a pedestal of "holiness, peace....to the > institution".Â They weren't the ones!!!.Â Having seeing this within myself I > am > now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the > walk of zen buddhism. > Â > Â I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never > built up > a pedestal to the instituion!.Â And so my experience was always healthy and > positive.Â It was positive because I never put that instituion in a > pedestal.Â I > saw it for what it was.Â And so I could get all the benefit from it and > never > the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. > Â > Mayka > > > --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote: > > > >From: mike brown <uerusub...@...> > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your > church. > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > >Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 > > > > > >Â > >Kristy, > > > >You wrote:Â "If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant > >about."Â > > > > > >However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once > >believers > >who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I > >am > >ignorant of what it is to be aÂ neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting > >their > >beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. > > > >Mike > > > > >