There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an 
aggression.  It's something that is happening more and more. This what you're 
raising is actually a very good point.  This point was discussed in a group of 
friends while I was in Spain this last July.  We were talking that before there 
was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that repression 
comes in a psycological way.  As soon as one expresses something that is going 
to be a critic that has an impact,  then very quickly comes out abusive 
behaviour, agression etc, etc.  

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44


I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem is 
that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That 
action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during the 
pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people 
will always label assertion as 'agressive'.

From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.


In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong 
temperament, I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is 
showed.  The same if that is verbal, physical or psycological.  I have enough 
hard work to tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which 
all  hard work done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing 
into a situation, provocation, dissapointment.....Trust me Mike that aggression 
is not the way unless your life is an stake.  I mean by that if someone comes 
with a knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed 
by someone. Allowing someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while 
we fall down death on the floor will be very silly .
However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me.  Apart from 
the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by 
the catholic church centuries ago.  There are political implications.  Even if 
the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have 
been the same.  Politics and religion competition between different christian 
denominations are notorious through history.
--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28


Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
"aggresive and destructive" criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent 
demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is 
the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the 
carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And 
what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He 
should be locked up. I'm serious.

From: maria818448 <flordel...@btinternet.com>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.


Hi Mike again:

I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the 
zen fourm went missed out such as this one from you. 

My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive 
criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to his/her 
object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is necessary 
the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism 
makes even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and 
makes critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely 
and let you on the side....And that of course is very irritating and can lead 
to anger later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok 
but as soon one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something 
contrary to the established power in the institution....WoooooooW!!!. 


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
> Mayka,
> It goes waaaaaaaaay beyond mere "disappontment" in any established religious 
> institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a "free pass" from 
> criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
> goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
> behaviours 
> etc. What is it about religion that can claim "I'm offended" as a valid 
> argument 
> against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
> probably 
> think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
> scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
> bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised 
> cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
> Mike
> ________________________________
> From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@...>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> church.
> Hi Mike and Everyone!
> If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
> institution 
> whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
> Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor 
> towards 
> the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
> very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
> unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in 
> the 
> TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
> as irrespetuos 
> or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of 
> Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions 
> established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. 
>  When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone 
> who 
> built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
> dissapointment for building a pedestal of "holiness, peace....to the 
> institution".  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I 
> am 
> now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the 
> walk of zen buddhism.
>   I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never 
> built up 
> a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
> positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a 
> pedestal.  I 
> saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and 
> never 
> the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
> Mayka
> --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
> >From: mike brown <uerusub...@...>
> >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> church.
> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33
> >
> >
> >  
> >Kristy,
> >
> >You wrote:  "If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
> >about."  
> >
> >
> >However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once 
> >believers 
> >who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I 
> >am 
> >ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting 
> >their 
> >beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >

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