Edgar, Break through what?
This isn't a trick question because I actually agree with what you've said, but I'd like to know what term you'd use to describe what needs to be 'broken through'. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > KG, > > Difference is religious myth is usually MISunderstood AS reality, but a koan > is understood as a means to break through TO reality... > > Edgar > > > > On Sep 12, 2012, at 12:41 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > > > > > A myth is no more or less direct than a koan. > > > > Have you built Zen into your personal dispensary? ;) > > > > KG > > > > > > On 9/12/2012 6:48 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >> > >> Bill, > >> > >> > >> Actually the Christ myth, and that's what it is a myth, is something that > >> evolved from earlier personifications of the seasons where life was seen > >> to die in winter and be reborn in Spring, and by extension the hope that > >> people too could also rise from the dead and enjoy new lives. There are > >> quite a few other earlier myths such as that of Persephone or Osiris that > >> are precursors to The Christ myth. > >> > >> Getting hung up in these like they are real and not mythical is a VERY BIG > >> sidetrack off the path of Zen... > >> > >> Zen dispenses with all the myths which dance around various aspects of > >> reality and goes right to the core of reality itself... > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> On Sep 11, 2012, at 9:30 PM, Bill! wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Bill, > >>> > >>> I fail to see much of a difference in these two focuses. My 'mental > >>> model' of Christianity includes both. Christ, being the 'perfect' > >>> sacrifice, died for our sins. He was the atonement the Heavenly Father > >>> required in order to forgive humans of their sins. The rising from the > >>> dead does symbolize everlasting life, but only after some the forgiveness > >>> of sins which might require additional attonement. Lutherans believe > >>> that, don't they? > >>> > >>> ...Bill! > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], William Rintala <brintala@> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > As I understand it Bill! there are at least 2 extremely different > >>> > interpretations of Christ and his cross. Catholacism saiys that > >>> > Christ suffered > >>> > and died on the cros for our sins. Their image of Christ has him > >>> > nailed to the > >>> > cross. I was raised as a Lutheran/ Protestant and they don't say > >>> > that. What we > >>> > were taught was that Christ died and was buried. He rose from the > >>> > dead 3 days > >>> > later and ascended into heaven as proof that all who believe in him > >>> > will have > >>> > everlasting life. Their image is of an empty cross and their call at > >>> > Easter is > >>> > "Christ has risen" to which the appropriate response is "He has risen > >>> > indeed". > >>> >  Bill > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Find what makes your heart singâ¦and do it! > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > ________________________________ > >>> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > >>> > To: [email protected] > >>> > Sent: Tue, September 11, 2012 5:14:51 AM > >>> > Subject: Re: [Zen] He Who Is Without Sin... > >>> > > >>> >  > >>> > Merle, > >>> > > >>> > Play 'Drop the Biblical Quote and Then Run Away and Hide'. > >>> > > >>> > My question to you was "According to Christianity what was the > >>> > 'purpose' or > >>> > 'achievement' of Jesus' life (and death)?" > >>> > > >>> > I'll give you a hint. It has to do with 'sin'. > >>> > > >>> > Tag! You're it! ...Bill! > >>> > > >>> > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > àplay what.?..i did not know it was a game...merle > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > à> >>> > > Merle, > >>> > > > >>> > > Was that an answer to my question, or just a 'I don't want to play > >>> > > anymore'? > >>> > > > >>> > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Ãâàhail mary!...merle > >>> > > > Ãâà> >>> > > > Merle, > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Yes! A sinless human. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > I thought you knew something about the 'mental model' of > >>> > > > Christianity. > >>> > > > According to Christianity what was the 'purpose' or 'achievement' > >>> > > > of Jesus' > >>> > >life (and death)? That's the whole point of Christianity! > >>> > > > > >>> > > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > > >>> > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > >>> > > > wrote: > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàjesus bill then you are a bloody saint!...a > >>> > > > > sinless human > >>> > >being..lordy be... what an achievement!..merle > >>> > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> >>> > > > > Merle, > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > I never said I was the 'second Christ'. I said 'I was without > >>> > > > > sin'. I was > >>> > >YOU that suggested I was the 'second coming'... > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > >>> > > > > wrote: > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàhang on bill... you > >>> > > > > > said you were the second > >>> > >christ..did i mis judge you?..merle > >>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> >>> > > > > > Merle, > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > There is only ONE 'Christ' - like there is only ONE 'Buddha' > >>> > > > > > and only ONE > >>> > >'Buddha Nature'. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Just FYI...Bill! > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > >>> > > > > > wrote: > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > >>> > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> >>> > > > > > > well said KG...is romney > >>> > >thinking he is the second christ?... merle > >>> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > >>> > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > We all are "the second coming of Christ [not of Jesus - but > >>> > > > > > > of > >>> > >"Christ"].ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > >>> > >'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> >>> > > Teaching point to > >>> > >realization. We all have/are the potential to realize this - for this > >>> > >to be > >>> > >realized - all have/are Buddha nature - to awaken to (call it what you > >>> > >like). > >>> > >That's the point of the teachings. Otherwise why come to teach the > >>> > >'first' time? > >>> > >Applies to equally Jesus' or Buddha's story. > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > The whole 'give a man a fish/teach a man to fish' schtick. > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > Surely you have always realized this?! *L* > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > KG > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > On 9/10/2012 8:49 AM, Merle Lester wrote: > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > >>> > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > >>> > > > > > > >'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> >>> > > > > > > > christ we have found > >>> > >him..bill is the second coming!...merle > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > >>> > > > > > > >'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >Merle, > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >In one of your posts a long time ago and far, > >>> > > > > > > far away (that means I couldn't find it) you > >>> > > > > > > castigated me for stating that Christians and > >>> > > > > > > Muslims did bad things during the Crusades in > >>> > > > > > > the name of their religions. You used a quote > >>> > > > > > > of Jesus from the Bible and I think it was: > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >"Let him who is without sin among you be the > >>> > > > > > > first to throw a stone... - John 8:7 (English > >>> > > > > > > Standard Version) > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >I have already stated in an early post (an > >>> > > > > > > even longer time ago and further away) that I > >>> > > > > > > considered myself pretty knowledgeable about > >>> > > > > > > Christianity and very knowledgeable about the > >>> > > > > > > teaching of Jesus. I didn't respond to this > >>> > > > > > > part of your post at that time because I > >>> > > > > > > didn't consider this quote really relevant to > >>> > > > > > > our discussion, but I would like to respond > >>> > > > > > > now. > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >I am without sin so would be eligible to throw > >>> > > > > > > stones if and when the situation calls for > >>> > > > > > > that. > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >...Bill! > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
