>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 12:04 PM
>Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
>That's a cop out. A touchy, feely, liberal cop out.
>You either need to
>defend your position, or give ground.<

Oh phooey. You're itching for a fight and I'm not going to give
you one, no matter what names you call me or how you twist my

As I noted earlier,  I emphasize the "teaching" instructions from
Christ; you emphasize the "repentance" message. Both lead to the
same end.  I just happen to think my way is more productive.
You're entitled to do as you will. Have a good time.  I'd argue
that teaching effectively always provokes repentance whereas
crying "repentance" from the rooftops does not always provoke
learning and true repentance. By the way, the last thing Christ
did on this earth was "forgive."

Ron Scott

>The Bible is VERY clear that Christ preached
>repentance. In Matthew
>4:17, it tells us that "From that time Jesus began to
>preach, and to
>say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
>This is literally the first thing he did after baptism
>and his 40 day
>What was the last thing Jesus did? He stood with his
>disciples and told
>them: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
>baptizing them in the
>name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
>Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have
>ccommanded you:
>and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the
>world. Amen."
>(Matthew 28:19-20).  And what did he command them to
>teach? Repentance.
>How about in our day?  Let's try D&C 19 on for size:
>13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the
>acommandments• which
>you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph
>Smith, Jun., in my
>14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
>15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I
>asmite• you by the
>rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and
>your bsufferings•
>be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know
>not, yea, how hard
>to bear you know not.
>16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered• these things for
>all, that they
>might not bsuffer if they would crepent;
>17 But if they would not repent they must asuffer• even as I"
>So, while he will forgive IF we repent, we must suffer
>even as He did,
>if we do not. In fact the blessing of forgiveness and
>mercy is something
>I truly hope and wish for, but I don't gamble on it. I
>work for my
>salvation, repenting as fast and as hard as I can, to
>ensure I merit
>that forgiveness.
>As to those who believe Christ is super-forgiving of
>sinners, let's see
>what Nephi says in 2Nephi28:
>"8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat•,
>drink, and be
>bmerry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify• in
>committing a little
>sin•; yea, elie• a little, take the advantage of one
>because of his
>words, dig a fpit• for thy neighbor; there is gno• harm
>in this; and do
>all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be
>that we are
>guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at
>last we shall be
>saved in the kingdom of God.
>9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after
>this manner,
>false and vain and foolish• cdoctrines•, and shall be
>puffed up in their
>hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from
>the Lord; and
>their works shall be in the dark.
>10 And the blood• of the saints shall cry from the
>ground against them.
>11 Yea, they have all gone out of the away•; they have become
>12 Because of pride•, and because of false• teachers, and false
>doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and
>their churches are
>lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up."
>So, Nephi tells us that some in the last days are going
>to push the
>extreme forgiveness idea of Christ. I'm sure you aren't
>as extreme as
>some evangelicals who think that a mere belief in Christ merits
>exaltation. But such are called false teachers with
>false doctrine. And,
>in fact, the blood of the saints shall cry against them!
>Now, I believe God is very forgiving. After all, he
>offers a kingdom of
>glory to almost all his children. However, that does
>not extend to
>exaltation. D&C 76 describes the exalted as the valiant
>ones, not the
>wishy-washy. In Revelation, God says he will spew the
>lukewarm out, so
>as to give us no misgivings as to what is required for
>Now, just where are these scriptures that you seem to
>believe in? And
>no, it isn't a matter of semantics. We agree that
>Christ is merciful,
>but modern prophets have also told us that mercy cannot
>rob justice.
>Gary Smith
>Ron Scott wrote:
>> Gary:
>> Look, I don't think we're ever going to agree.  I'm
>probably as
>> aware as you are as to what God taught and what he didn't. I
>> think are differences are in approach. I'm inclined
>to teach the
>> gospel, you seem inclined to preach repentance.  I'm
>inclined to
>> believe that God must be a pretty forgiving God if
>he's willing
>> to forgive the sins of repentant sinners like you and me.  I
>> believe that God wants to include as many people as
>He possibly
>> can...and that it's my job to do my bit to ensure the
>roster is
>> as large as possible.  You take a different tack.
>Good luck to
>> you.  Our purposes are the same, more or less even if
>our methods
>> are different.
>> Ron
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 1:42 PM
>> >Subject: [ZION] Vote Now!
>> >
>> >
>> >How about his prophecy that Jerusalem would be
>> >destroyed by God for its
>> >sins?  Since Christ is God, he was doing more than just
>> >foreseeing an
>> >event - he was being Judge, Jury and Executioner.  He
>> >will do it again at
>> >the Second Coming.
>> >We must remember that the Mosaic Law was a lower law -
>> >but still a law of
>> >God.  Regardless of the punishment, the sin of
>> >homosexuality was still a
>> >sin that was punishable under the law.  In earlier days
>> >in the USA, it
>> >was also considered a crime punishable under the law.
>> >And Just because it is no longer punished, does not
>> >make it heinous or
>> >sinful.
>> >
>> >And what Christ taught was not forgiveness, but
>> >repentance.  Forgiveness
>> >is what was given AFTER people repented.  Christ did
>not teach
>> >forgiveness to the Pharisees, but called them to
>> >repentance. He did not
>> >preach forgiveness to the Jews or Samaritans, but
>> >repentance.  He
>> >forgave, because it was within him to forgive those He
>> >chose to forgive.
>> >Had his mission been nothing but forgiveness, he would
>> >forgive all
>> >mankind, including Cain.
>> >
>> >Instead, he came to bring balance between Justice and
>> >Mercy, but only on
>> >condition of repentance, which is what he preached.
>> >
>> >I think too many get fixated on what seems to be God's
>> >leniency. In
>> >reality, the commandments are clear, as are the rewards
>> >and punishments.
>> >We are not to judge where a person goes to in the next
>> >life, but we are
>> >to judge right from wrong. The JST of Matthew 7:1 tells
>> >us to judge
>> >righteous judgment.  I don't condemn people to hell,
>> >that is God's job. I
>> >DO condemn sin, telling the sinner that if change does
>> >not occur in
>> >his/her life, the person risks hellfire.  Calling
>> >people to repentance is
>> >a good thing to do, because only in repentance can God
>> >bring forgiveness.
>> >
>> >K'aya K'ama,
>> >
>> >Gerald (Gary) Smith
>> >http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
>> >LDS Evidences,
>> >Family History, Food Storage, etc.
>> >
>> >
>> >RB Scott wrote:
>> >
>> >>  Seriously, I don't
>> >>recall Christ preaching "death" for any
>offense...well, murder
>> >>perhaps (but I don't recall it).
>> >
>> >Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre
>interpretations, what
>> >Christ taught was forgiveness, not death.
>> >
>> >I think too many get fixated and judging others, relishing
>> >damning others to hell. What Christ taught was that it is our
>> >responsibility to forgive all, to leave judgements to Him.  I
>> >suspect when that great and dreadful day arrives, more
>> >than a few
>> >of us will be very, very surpised.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>> >//////////////////////
>> >///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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>> >////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>> >/////////////////////
>> -----------
>> >
>> >
>Gerald (Gary) Smith
>geraldsmith@ juno.com
>///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
>///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html      ///

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