The Wiki doesn't completely slag off Zope. There are sections which talk about how powerful it is etc. This guy seems to be genuinely trying to get his head round Zope and it is a very steep learning curve. Ok, he should be more advanced in the subject than he is due to his experience but why attack the whole time? It seems to reveal a certain insecurity on the part of certain members. There's a terrible air of defensiveness on this list. My posting was in support of Darios comments which were sound.

"because it is a mature, well-documented
 piece of software"

mature yes, well-documented it is not. Plone has much better documentation which is often very helpful. This probably increases the traffic on the Plone lists due to users being more knowledgeable and more confident in posting issues. There are lots of variables and yes CMS traffic and experience are two, I agree. However I feel general tone is crucial.

On 11/13/06, Andrew Milton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
+-------[ michael nt milne ]----------------------
| "yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new
| followers to zope."
| Quite right. It's an ignorant attitude and one that itself deserves the label
| that it is prescribing. It's been prevalent for a long time on this list. The

So if I start a wiki, making a tonne of incorrect, and ignorant statements
about plone, use these false/misleading statements as a basis for replacing plone,
and then post it to the plone list trying to get support for replacing plone,
that list will support me right? 100% ?

| whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling.

You need to trust that those you can identify as senior members of the
community, are telling the rest of you that this guy is full of crap.

There have some dubious postings of late. More are coming I can assure you.

The single thing that should have alerted you that something was up.

*** Chris Withers and I agreed on something d8)

Imagine for a moment this guy came to you for a job, claiming 25+ years of
dev experience, and 2+ years of Zope experience. How many of the following
would you expect him to know about? Let's just say Zope 2 even.

o bobobase_modification_time

o User Folders
  - CookieCrumbler
  - SimpleUserFolder
  - LDAPUserFolder
  - exUserFolder
  - PAS
  - anything at all in

o metal:define-macro
o metal:use-macro
o metal:define-slot
o metal:fill-slot
o tal:replace="structure ..."
o Zope Security Tab?
o General web security
o OO development
o Security overrides for python scripts
o Abstraction, encapsulation

Would you be pissed at having employed this person only to find out they didn't
know any of these things?

The people slagging this guys are pissed. Because the guy has done NO
research, and no reading whatsover, and then claims Zope needs to be
rewritten (of course, it IS already being rewritten, which shows how much research he
did, but, not for any of the reasons he listed [because they are crap]).

What if he claimed to be able to write a python Product, but, also claimed they
didn't know how to subclass OFS.Image to keep the creation date?

Would you believe them?

Would you give the guy any credibility?

Are you in a position to evaluate the claims?

| Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that
| the Zope list gets? Yes.

Because it's larger and more complicated than Zope itself? You factored in the CMF
list traffic too right?

| because it is a more mature and constructive support
| environment which actually helps promote the product.

That's just a bizarre claim (one, I imagine based more on opinion than fact?)

One could claim that the number of postings is proportional to the amount of help
required, which is almost certainly proportional to the experience of the
userbase and the complexity of the subject.

These are the types of bizarre claims that generate sneering name-calling
replies d8)

My counter claims;

o Zope list generates less traffic because it is a mature, well-documented
  piece of software well understood by its userbase, and supported through
  other media such as IRC (where #zope gets far more plone questions than it
  ought to because "Everyone in #plone is asleep" is oft lamented).

o Newbies will post regardless of the tone of the list, because for the most
  part they don't read anything, including the list-charter, list-archives,
  the FAQ, or any of the other documentation available.

o Noone is not going to use software because of a hostile userbase. Linux
  proves this. In fact it might make the case for us being more offensive. d8)

Andrew Milton

Zope maillist  -
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - )

Reply via email to