subject:"\[Audyssey\] The real Game Circle"


Hi William,
Well, maybe nothing totally new, but I've released a few demos of 
Mysteries of the Ancients. That's better than nothing I guess.
As it happens Mysteries of the Ancients is undergoing a major update, 
and I can pretty much say the game will be out sometime between now and 
Christmas provided nothing major happens between now and then. Once I 
complete the upgrades I am doing now all that will be left is to add the 
game levels.

Smile.

william lomas wrote:
same for us in the blind community no games have came out this year 
and we are eight months into the year already



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Now there's a disturbing image, a Final Fantasy game with ACDC playing in 
the background.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Hi Bryan,
Well, my point was that certain games require a certain type of music, a 
theme to set the mood, and is all part of the art of game design. Sticking 
heavy metal, hip-hop, or anything else in a game were it doesn't belong 
will kill the game. You can't write a purely fantacy game and have hard 
rock like AC-DC or hip-hop music like Ice Cube playing in the background. 
It just sounds out of place as well as very annoying to some people.
As for copyrights goes that is very true. Although, I legally license my 
music for my games so that at least isn't a problem. Though, it cost me 
quite a bit of cash to do it.

Bryan Peterson wrote:
Or you could do what Che did for Rail Racer and give players the option 
of using their own music via WinAmp. I never did that myself because the 
music got too distracting and I couldn't hear ART. Actually if Angel and 
my plans work out we'll probably do that for a lot of our games, 
particularly if we develop any sports type titles. And that's not 
entirely out of the question despite my not being a sports fan. If I do 
this I want to appeal to as many people as I possibly can. Giving players 
the option and a means to use their own music might be one way to do 
that. It also means you're less likely to get sued for selling 
copyrighted material, which you very well could if you bundled 
copyrighted music with your game.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.

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Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle

2009-08-15 Thread Josh

Hi,
Has anyone ever thought of calling companies like Sony and writing letters to 
them  and petitioning for the major video game companies to modify their 
current games so they are accessible? put a visually impaired/blind players 
mode in the games and a button to access it? And with today's console 
arcitecture why not add text to speech built right into the console? same with 
pc games, add an accessibility option or a downloadable accessibility pack for 
the games. and since we got firefox and webvisum brushthose captchas aside, 
subscribe to the sighted gamers forums and lets make our voices heard and keep 
making them heard until we get what we want, the quality of games  played by 
our sighted friends. 


Josh

Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: 
http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html 
and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at 
http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337
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Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle

2009-08-15 Thread michael barnes

i agree with that i have talk to nintendo about that a year ago with 
the wii it can be done they can make sport games for the blind such as 
goalball and beatball and other sports for the blind they can make 
racing games for the blind and shooting games aswell because the wii is 
interactive so it can be done


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Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle

Oh nobody's really saying it can't be done, although I'll admit I had my 
doubts about the Wii. The real problem is and will probably always be 
convincing developers that it would be worthwhile to do so. We are, as much 
as I hate to say it, a distinct minority in the gaming community. Financial 
concerns are always going to way more heavily on developers' minds than 
anything else. Making games for us may not be cost effective.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net

To: gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle


i agree with that i have talk to nintendo about that a year ago with the 
wii it can be done they can make sport games for the blind such as goalball 
and beatball and other sports for the blind they can make racing games for 
the blind and shooting games aswell because the wii is interactive so it 
can be done


--
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www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


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Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle

I hate to say it but that'll probably never happen. We have to look at how 
cost effective it would be for these companies to make their games 
accessible. Given that we're a distinct minority chances are they're going 
to say it's not cost effective. That's always going to be the number 1 
priority for them, above everything else. And I'm sure people have called, 
written to and otherwise communicated with these big name companies. I'll 
admit that Nintendo seems at least willing to listen to the idea but that's 
about as far as it's ever gone. As for the other developers that people have 
contacted, most were apparently quite rude about the whole thing.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com

To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle



Hi,
Has anyone ever thought of calling companies like Sony and writing letters 
to them  and petitioning for the major video game companies to modify 
their current games so they are accessible? put a visually impaired/blind 
players mode in the games and a button to access it? And with today's 
console arcitecture why not add text to speech built right into the 
console? same with pc games, add an accessibility option or a downloadable 
accessibility pack for the games. and since we got firefox and webvisum 
brushthose captchas aside, subscribe to the sighted gamers forums and lets 
make our voices heard and keep making them heard until we get what we 
want, the quality of games  played by our sighted friends.



Josh

Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: 
http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html
and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter 
at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-15 Thread Munawar Bijani


Hi Tom,
I think the real issue is not the lack of plot in Tomb raider, but simply 
that it's been going on for so long. Take Metal Gear Solid, for instance. It 
got so popular people wrote official analytical papers on its story. Scratch 
the game play--it's just a first-person shooter. But the developers for MGS 
did something right: they pakced the entire plot into four games, and ended 
it. Harry Potter would have suffered the same fate as Tomb Raider if Rowling 
had dragged on the series for another ten books. Animorphs suffered that 
fate. What seems to happen is some developers get too cocky and don't know 
when to stop. When that happens, the audience goes, oh, when will this 
thing end? And then when it does, they go finally! and just throw the 
whole series out the window. Or when they do finally end it, the ending 
wasn't even worth the suspense. I know several series that have ended 
horribly--with a total lack of creativity, and it has left me disappointed 
in the end.

Munawar A. Bijani
Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only 
useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha

mailto:munaw...@gmail.com
http://www.bpcprograms.com
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi,
True. There really hasn't been any thing new that has made a big splash of 
late. At least nothing I would be really interested in. Last fall Edos 
released Tomb raider 8, but Underworld was more of a disappointment than 
anything else. The Tomb Raider games have been really losing sales over 
the passed few releases, and is nothing like what it was in the late 
1990's. The graphics and sound effects are superior, but the games have 
lost something that made the first few games special. Well, I've heard 
about some technical issues with Tomb Raider Underworld and camera angles 
which probably didn't help the game any.




shaun everiss wrote:

well to tell you the truth there are not so many big shots now.
in fact nothing has made the headlines of late.
no big company has released anything lately that has hit the lines either 
my friend that is sighted says he does pick the odd bit up but its not as 
bussy as it was like a year or 2 back.





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Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle

2009-08-15 Thread shaun everiss

except the departments you hit are the same as the ones for copywrite not 
envolved in any of the decition making process.
in any case this thing needs to be of good will or something not forced.
if it is then it may just not happen or if it does prices will go through the 
roof.
At 02:38 a.m. 16/08/2009, you wrote:
Hi,
Has anyone ever thought of calling companies like Sony and writing letters to 
them  and petitioning for the major video game companies to modify their 
current games so they are accessible? put a visually impaired/blind players 
mode in the games and a button to access it? And with today's console 
arcitecture why not add text to speech built right into the console? same with 
pc games, add an accessibility option or a downloadable accessibility pack for 
the games. and since we got firefox and webvisum brushthose captchas aside, 
subscribe to the sighted gamers forums and lets make our voices heard and keep 
making them heard until we get what we want, the quality of games  played by 
our sighted friends. 


Josh

Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: 
http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html 
and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at 
http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337
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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi Charles,
Parish the thought. Iron Butterfly and Sudoku?
Just thinking about that combo makes me have a headache. Whenever I play 
something like Sudoku I want piece and quiet while I think of how to 
solve the puzzles or at least have some soft and quiet music. Anyway, 
your point is well taken.

Smile.



Charles Rivard wrote:
To give another example, how about some Iron Butterfly while playing a 
game of Sudoku?  It just doesn't fit.  On the other hand, the music 
and background ambiance in your currently being played demo certainly 
do fit the game, creating the desired mood.



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Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle

2009-08-15 Thread Munawar Bijani


Hi,
Petitioning is a good idea, but in the end whether or not accessibility gets 
implemented boils down to revenue. There aren't enough blind players to 
convince a company like Soni to invest time (including research hours) and 
money into making a game fully accessible. This is one reason, I believe, 
why the AG market is suffering so much as well. Do we have developers with 
amazing potential? Certainly. Why don't they make games that rock the 
market? Because there isn't enough return. Not to mention some small groups 
(who we all know about) who take it upon themselves to say, I don't think 
it's worth buying, but I'll definitely crack it and play hurting the market 
even more. In the end, I think we don't realize, even half way, how much one 
person cracking an audiogame and ripping the developer of $15-$30 hurts the 
developer's finances. Making audiogames isn't free, and making mainstream 
games isn't free either.

Munawar A. Bijani
Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only 
useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha

mailto:munaw...@gmail.com
http://www.bpcprograms.com
- Original Message - 
From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle


except the departments you hit are the same as the ones for copywrite not 
envolved in any of the decition making process.

in any case this thing needs to be of good will or something not forced.
if it is then it may just not happen or if it does prices will go through 
the roof.

At 02:38 a.m. 16/08/2009, you wrote:

Hi,
Has anyone ever thought of calling companies like Sony and writing letters 
to them  and petitioning for the major video game companies to modify 
their current games so they are accessible? put a visually impaired/blind 
players mode in the games and a button to access it? And with today's 
console arcitecture why not add text to speech built right into the 
console? same with pc games, add an accessibility option or a downloadable 
accessibility pack for the games. and since we got firefox and webvisum 
brushthose captchas aside, subscribe to the sighted gamers forums and lets 
make our voices heard and keep making them heard until we get what we 
want, the quality of games  played by our sighted friends.



Josh

Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: 
http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html
and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter 
at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Some of the music of Jean-Michel Jarre might be good backing for a Sudoku 
game come to think of it. His album Oxygene comes to mind.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Hi Charles,
Parish the thought. Iron Butterfly and Sudoku?
Just thinking about that combo makes me have a headache. Whenever I play 
something like Sudoku I want piece and quiet while I think of how to solve 
the puzzles or at least have some soft and quiet music. Anyway, your point 
is well taken.

Smile.

Charles Rivard wrote:
To give another example, how about some Iron Butterfly while playing a 
game of Sudoku?  It just doesn't fit.  On the other hand, the music and 
background ambiance in your currently being played demo certainly do fit 
the game, creating the desired mood.

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Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle

Hi Josh,
Yes, several people have been in touch with mainstream game companies
regarding improved accessibility. There is an organization called IGDA
which has spent considerable time and money working towards improved
accessible games, and they have been continually stonewalled by the
companies that be. concessions have been very few and far between.
For example, IGDA has managed to convince some game companies to include
closed captioning in many of their game scenes and dialogs for people
with hearing impairments. That, of course, doesn't help us any, but it
is a small compromise they managed to get out of some of these major
game companies.
The major problem comes down to time and money. We are a very small
minority, and are hardly worth a companies time and money. They are not
going to shell out big money on research and development for game
accessibility unless they are going to get a huge financial return on
that investment. Unfortunately, there isn't enough of us around to
really make a major impact on their sales, and we hold no real influence
with these companies. So total accessibility is pretty darned unlikely
in the near future.
That's to say nothing about the general attitude of these companies.
From what I've heard responses range from polite sympathy to outright
rudeness. I get the feeling some of these companies think of us as an
annoying gnat that can be swatted out of the way, and in a sense they
would b correct.

Josh wrote:

Hi,
Has anyone ever thought of calling companies like Sony and writing letters to them and petitioning for the major video game companies to modify their current games so they are accessible? put a visually impaired/blind players mode in the games and a button to access it? And with today's console arcitecture why not add text to speech built right into the console? same with pc games, add an accessibility option or a downloadable accessibility pack for the games. and since we got firefox and webvisum brushthose captchas aside, subscribe to the sighted gamers forums and lets make our voices heard and keep making them heard until we get what we want, the quality of games played by our sighted friends.

Josh

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,
Yes, very very true. Sometimes It just takes a while for some gamers to 
adapt to something new.
Take Rail Racer for example. When Che first announced the project 
publically I'll admit I had my doubts about it. I really didn't think 
the game was going to be all that apealing. However, as time went on and 
I saw more of the end product it became clear it was the best accessible 
racing game I've ever played. It's online and off line play is adictive, 
and it takes a long time to get the hang of playing the game. That's the 
way it should be.
As for the its too hard argument I honestly don't think some people try 
hard enough at it or don't want to have to work for the pay off. I 
remember when I first played Shades of Doom, and I found the game really 
difficult on the easiest experience level. well, after a couple of weeks 
I got the hang of it, and slowly tried harder and harder experience 
levels until I am an expert at the game. I didn't get that good at the 
game just by playing once through. I must have spent hours and hours on 
it the first couple of months. When I finally killed the boss on the 
most difficult experience level without using a saved game or cheat 
codes you can bet I was pretty darn proud of myself. The pay off was 
really really satisfying.



Munawar Bijani wrote:
Agreed. I have gotten the same complaints about Three-D 
Velocity--although it seems as if most people here are very tempted to 
try new things. So yes, you get the occasional this is too hard, add 
feature X to make it easier message, but for the most part you'll see 
a positive outlook; if for nothing else, at least because you bring 
new ideas to the AG market. I think we're all sick of the guess the 
numbers and side-side shooting games like Dark Destroyer. Just 
remember, if they don't like it, they don't have to buy it, so don't 
let it put your hopes down if a couple people do start complaining. 
Keep your target audience in mind, and don't try to cater to everyone 
because it won't work. Several games (including Treasure Hunt) failed 
because of this.

Munawar A. Bijani



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,

Michael said:
Remember when these games we have were released. There are tipically  
large chunks of empty time between any two game releases.

It takes ages to  put a game together.

My responce:
Not only that we need to keep in mind the more complex the game the 
longer it takes. I can put together a simple Blackjack game in a couple 
of days time. Something like Shades of Doom or Tank Commander would take 
at least a year or so to complete with my current schedule. Probably longer.


Michael said:
Don't throw the baby out with the bath-water. Arcade games shouldn't be  
thought of as less worthy acomplishments. We haven't even begun to approach

the variety and scope available to sighted people.

My responce:
That's certainly true. There are several games that fall into the arcade 
game genre, and have become legends in their own right. Games like 
Asteroids, Montezuma's Revenge, Pacman, Missile Command, Bomberman, and 
so on will go down in history as some of the best games in history. A 
couple of years ago Activision released an Atari console with several 
clasic arcade games on it, and it sold like hot cakes. People still 
enjoy those old Atari classics even though they are very old in terms of 
vidio game technology.
In terms of theaccessible games market we have only had a small, very 
small, samplying of what the arcade genre has to offer. So far we have 
seen a demo of Montezuma's Revenge,  PCS has done a good reproduction of 
Pacman, and several people have created their own Space invaders style 
games. However, that is actually a drop in the bucket when it comes to 
all of the games that once existed for the Atari and other arcade consoles.


Michael said:
Sidescrollers have a whole lot to offer blind people. We really haven't
seen  any serious exploration of that genre despite the relative ease 
of  translating it into accessible form.


My responce:
Yes, and there have been many good games that were originally created as 
side-scrollers. Games like Castlevania, Megaman, Double dragon, Pitfall, 
Montezuma's Revenge, Super Mario Brothers, Prince of Persia, etc all 
started out as side-scrollers, and became best sellers. The genre has an 
impressive history, and converts fairly well into an audio only format.


Michael said:
Variety, rather than actual innovation, is what is truly being sought 
here.  Let's be clear about this. The actual complaint being sent to 
game  developers
isn't truly about their lack of innovation. What a lot of us  truly seek 
is new experience of genres we haven't gotten a chance to play in  yet.


My rsponce:
I have to agree with that excellent observation. It isn't like we have 
hundreds of side-scrollers, arcade games, first person shooters, 
simulators, etc to choose from that are actually 100% accessible out of 
the box. There is nothing wrong with card games, board games, and so on 
but we don't have enough variety to satisfy everyone's interests properly.
I'm personally interested in real time action games like Shades of Doom, 
Tank Commander, and Lonewolf. I'd love to see more games along that line 
being created. Someone else might really be into card and board games, 
and want to see more games like that being developed. Others might want 
to know what it was like playing the classics like Donkey Kong, Frogger, 
and Asteroids, and would like to see more games like that being created. 
Unfortunately, there isn't enough of us skilled game developers to 
satisfy everyone currently.



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Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle

2009-08-15 Thread shaun everiss

I think they would notice us if we did something drastic.
the easiest thing sould be to make a game using their chars and names and well 
make an accessible game to show them what we could do.
Issue is we would get the wrong attention.
The other option is impossible or almost.
if we made something they wanted, then make it on par with their stuff then 
maybe they would be able to be interested.
There are several issues.
time and the number of devs we would need for a big project.
then there is the tech we would need.
good sfx, 3d graphics, directx, xna, multiplayer games with a large world base 
and servers ofcause.
we would need more things than even sod has.
we would be able to use the latest tech whatever that was.
The only game that actually comes close is teraformas and really thats it.
usagames stuff does hit it  but not quite yet.
we'd really have to hit it with loads of things.
At 10:52 a.m. 16/08/2009, you wrote:
Hi Josh,
Yes, several people have been in touch with mainstream game companies 
regarding improved accessibility. There is an organization called IGDA which 
has spent considerable time and money working towards improved accessible 
games, and they have been continually stonewalled by the companies that be.  
concessions have been very few and far between.
For example, IGDA has managed to convince some game companies to include 
closed captioning in many of their game scenes and dialogs for people with 
hearing impairments. That, of course, doesn't help us any, but it is a small 
compromise they managed to get out of some of these major game companies.
The major problem comes down to time and money. We are a very small minority, 
and are hardly worth a companies time and money. They are not going to shell 
out big money on research and development for game accessibility unless they 
are going to get a huge financial return on that investment. Unfortunately, 
there isn't enough of us around to really make a major impact on their sales, 
and we hold no real influence with these companies. So total accessibility is 
pretty darned unlikely in the near future.
That's to say nothing about the general attitude of these companies. From what 
I've heard responses range from polite sympathy to outright rudeness. I get 
the feeling some of these companies think of us as an annoying gnat that can 
be swatted out of the way, and in a sense they would b correct.

Josh wrote:
Hi,
Has anyone ever thought of calling companies like Sony and writing letters to 
them  and petitioning for the major video game companies to modify their 
current games so they are accessible? put a visually impaired/blind players 
mode in the games and a button to access it? And with today's console 
arcitecture why not add text to speech built right into the console? same 
with pc games, add an accessibility option or a downloadable accessibility 
pack for the games. and since we got firefox and webvisum brushthose captchas 
aside, subscribe to the sighted gamers forums and lets make our voices heard 
and keep making them heard until we get what we want, the quality of games  
played by our sighted friends. 

Josh
  


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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Hi,
Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have are a
bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers, but there
really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to speak of
besides Rail Racer.
For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories.
Either they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type
theme. Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to what
was available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main reason I
began writing accesible games myself.
As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact it
is a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible developer
can use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands it could be
used to create some killer accessible games. We have already seen what
it can do with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander, and I think with some
updates it should be able to create games more or less on par with Star
Trek Elite Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight, etc. In some respects it isn't
the fault of the tool here, but perhaps it is the developer's lack of
imagination, creativity, or experience with full blown FPS games here.
As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project on
hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work with
Lucas Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when Alchemy closed
up I took over their games and projects which I want to complete before
returning to my own original projects.

CSF inc. wrote:
With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's disappointing; There are interesting games we play but very few; other games are not accessible to certain computers and operating systems; others are so simple and plain, for some of us who has played regular games, it's disheartening; Effort should be made into making games more involved, more ideas ie stop making games off of GMA's frame work, There is only 1 Shades, 1 Tank Commander.. lastly, we need games we can play along with our sighted family like Soul Caliber. We have no fighting games, no sports games we can play without some A.I. making it not real; even though the 2nd best player in the world in Mortal Combat is Blind!! We should of taken that
initiative

and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal.. Are blind
people not sports fans? would we like to box? run the football? aim the pitch
in a baseball game? even fly a F-16 in combat.. Sim's are O.K. I guess, but it
takes the control and fun out of the game.. Some will complain about this post,
some will agree; the point is We Need More Variety, And Not The Same Games With
Different Titles.. What happened to Star Wars Jedi attack? OOh Yeah Baby..
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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread william lomas

it will be interesting though to be fair, to see what draconis have up  
their sleives. i thought 2009 was the year for draconis, but nothing  
as of yet?


On 14 Aug 2009, at 07:29, Thomas Ward wrote:


Hi,
Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have  
are a bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers,  
but there really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to  
speak of besides Rail Racer.
For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories.  
Either they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type  
theme. Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to  
what was available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main  
reason I began writing accesible games myself.
As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact  
it is a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible  
developer can use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands  
it could be used to create some killer accessible games. We have  
already seen what it can do with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander,  
and I think with some updates it should be able to create games more  
or less on par with Star Trek Elite Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight,   
etc. In some respects it isn't the fault of the tool here, but  
perhaps it is the developer's lack of imagination, creativity, or  
experience with full blown FPS games here.
As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project  
on hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work  
with Lucas Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when  
Alchemy closed up I took over their games and projects which I want  
to complete before returning to my own original projects.


CSF inc. wrote:
With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's  
disappointing; There are interesting games we play but very few;  
other games are not accessible to certain computers and operating  
systems; others are so simple and plain, for some of us who has  
played regular games, it's disheartening; Effort should be made  
into making games more involved, more ideas ie stop making games  
off of GMA's frame work, There is only 1 Shades, 1 Tank  
Commander..  lastly, we need games we can play along with our  
sighted family like Soul Caliber. We have no fighting games, no  
sports games we can play without some A.I. making it not real; even  
though the 2nd best player in the world in Mortal Combat is Blind!!  
We should of taken that  initiative


and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal..  
Are blind people not sports fans? would we like to box? run the  
football? aim the pitch in a baseball game? even fly a F-16 in  
combat.. Sim's are O.K. I guess, but it takes the control and fun  
out of the game.. Some will complain about this post, some will  
agree; the point is We Need More Variety, And Not The Same Games  
With Different Titles.. What happened to Star Wars Jedi attack? OOh  
Yeah Baby..

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread Che

regarding the idea of developers teaming up, it is a great idea in theory, 
but a diffficult one to put into practice in reality.
 every developer i have talked to without exception, myself included have 
large egos and set ways of doing things, this would be a serious problem i 
think.

secondly, deciding how to whack up the proceeds would be a huge issue.
 lastly, all involved would have to agree on a language to use for 
programming, which may or may not be a big problem depending on folks 
involved.
anyhow, if some developers can get something done as a group, i'm all for 
it. but i know as for myself, i work better alone, where the vision is one, 
all problems as well as successes are also mine alone to deal with, and if 
something is screwed up, i have nobody to blame but myself.
 i think this could work out if everyone agreed on the outline of the 
project, and designed things modularly so each programmer would have their 
own little corner to work on, which could be intergrated into the whole 
later on. once again, easier said than done.

later
che

- Original Message - 
From: william lomas lomaswill...@googlemail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


it will be interesting though to be fair, to see what draconis have up 
their sleives. i thought 2009 was the year for draconis, but nothing  as 
of yet?


On 14 Aug 2009, at 07:29, Thomas Ward wrote:


Hi,
Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have  are a 
bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers,  but there 
really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to  speak of 
besides Rail Racer.
For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories. 
Either they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type 
theme. Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to  what 
was available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main  reason I 
began writing accesible games myself.
As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact  it 
is a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible  developer 
can use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands  it could be 
used to create some killer accessible games. We have  already seen what 
it can do with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander,  and I think with some 
updates it should be able to create games more  or less on par with Star 
Trek Elite Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight,   etc. In some respects it isn't 
the fault of the tool here, but  perhaps it is the developer's lack of 
imagination, creativity, or  experience with full blown FPS games here.
As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project  on 
hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work  with 
Lucas Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when  Alchemy closed 
up I took over their games and projects which I want  to complete before 
returning to my own original projects.


CSF inc. wrote:
With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's 
disappointing; There are interesting games we play but very few;  other 
games are not accessible to certain computers and operating  systems; 
others are so simple and plain, for some of us who has  played regular 
games, it's disheartening; Effort should be made  into making games 
more involved, more ideas ie stop making games  off of GMA's frame 
work, There is only 1 Shades, 1 Tank  Commander..  lastly, we need 
games we can play along with our  sighted family like Soul Caliber. We 
have no fighting games, no  sports games we can play without some A.I. 
making it not real; even  though the 2nd best player in the world in 
Mortal Combat is Blind!!  We should of taken that  initiative


and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal..  Are 
blind people not sports fans? would we like to box? run the  football? 
aim the pitch in a baseball game? even fly a F-16 in  combat.. Sim's are 
O.K. I guess, but it takes the control and fun  out of the game.. Some 
will complain about this post, some will  agree; the point is We Need 
More Variety, And Not The Same Games  With Different Titles.. What 
happened to Star Wars Jedi attack? OOh  Yeah Baby..

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi Che,
I know the feeling. I'm not sure why but simple and easy games appears 
to be what sells in the accessible games market. As many people know one 
of my plans will be to create a full blown 3d game engine, as in actual 
3d levels with 3d objects, 3d movement, as well as 3d audio support. No 
sooner did i mention my plans I got various comments to the effect that 
anything I made using it would be too hard even though they never seen 
the final product yet.
One of the things that bothered me was some people immediately tried to 
tell me that because they have problems with Audioquake and Technoshock 
they absolutely know that they couldn't play any of my games. They 
didn't seam to consider the fact that with Audioquake accessibility is 
poorly implemented, and because it is  a modified version of Quake it 
wasn't designed from the ground up for a blind player. Accessibility is 
an add on, and there could be a lot more done to it to provide 
accessibility. Technoshock also has some accessibility issues, that make 
it harder than say Shades of Doom to play, and i feel accessibility 
could b done better in that game. I've seen what works and what doesn't 
and I'd use that experience plus my own blindness to work out any and 
all accessibility problems that might crop up.
Anyway, the bottom line is now and then we see a thread like this where 
someone suggests coming up with something new, something different, 
something more mainstream, and when a developer tries to do that, come 
up with something truly amazing like Rail Racer, the complaints thatit 
is too hard come rolling in. As a developer we really can't win. No 
matter if we do something easy or something new and slightly challenging 
someone is going to complain.



Che wrote:

I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too 
much practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the 
folks all the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, 
high end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved 
fighting game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on 
it, and didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that 
wasn't going to sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think 
the folks that would have enjoyed the online fighting game would have 
really enjoyed it a lot, as those that play rail racer constantly do, 
but there just aren't enough of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get 
done, but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem 
to sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, 
its just a simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. 
if folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they 
do, and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists 
lately from what i've seen.

We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps 
thousands of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you 
have to love doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some 
of my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me 
they are the best card games out there for the blind, with features 
not seen anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living 
doing this stuff.
i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, 
hosted by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing 
the damage they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they 
don't care. i know some of them are reading this, and if you are 
sharing any cracked games, you should be very ashamed of yourself. in 
sucha small market, the damage you are doing is immense.
 Bottom line, if your a fellow developer working on a game now, my hat 
is off to you, this is a hard task without much reward or thanks, but 
non developers don't get that  and don't seem to care either.  But 
having said that, can't we push the envelope a little bit?  Do we 
really need another shoot em up or arcade action game? hasn't all that 
been done enough by now?

later
che



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread Milos Przic

  Yes, fighting game would be cool, something I have been waiting for since 
I first saw an audio game!
- Original Message - 
From: CSF inc. elohee...@verizon.net
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Your the man, and can't wait for your football game, dude, call me 
personally.. As for a fighting game. I can only wish, and allot of other 
blind gamers I know is starving for it.. And what about up to dat music? 
Rock, Hip - Hop, club, dance.. Come on it's almost 2010.. Later
- Original Message - 
From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too 
much practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks 
all the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to 
sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would 
have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot, 
as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough 
of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done, 
but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just 
a simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they 
do, and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists 
lately from what i've seen.

We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands 
of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love 
doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of 
my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they 
are the best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen 
anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this 
stuff.
i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, 
hosted by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the 
damage they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they don't 
care. i know some of them are reading this, and if you are sharing any 
cracked games, you should be very ashamed of yourself. in sucha small 
market, the damage you are doing is immense.
 Bottom line, if your a fellow developer working on a game now, my hat is 
off to you, this is a hard task without much reward or thanks, but non 
developers don't get that  and don't seem to care either.  But having 
said that, can't we push the envelope a little bit?  Do we really need 
another shoot em up or arcade action game? hasn't all that been done 
enough by now?

later
che

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread Scott Chesworth

I too am of the pursuation that would quite like to have a fighting
game rock my socks off, mainly because I'm too broke to own a console
at the moment.
Seems to me though having seen some of the PS3 and even the later PS2
titles that it would be a massive project to get it up to current
console standard.  There are so many games in this genre that are
playable to the point of being worth buying on consoles that anything
less would seem kinda pointless to me, unless it was ridiculously
adddictive in some non-standard way.
I think the developer that takes on this project is gonna have a lot
on their plate.  Without some real innovation or a touch of something
nobody is expecting, we're likely to end up with something not
dissimilar to Mortal Kombat 3 with talking menues at best.  I dunno if
I'd buy that, I already own MK3.
Not meaning to put a downer on a project that hasn't even started yet,
just musing really.

Something else I'd be very very interested in would be some
innovations to one of the open source musical game projects like frets
on fire to make it more accessible.  Sure rockband is playable, but
proper speech feedback with online play and such would be just the
ticket for me.  Can't imagine buying a whole console for it, but I can
definitely imagine buying the music controllers to hook up to the pc.

Scott

On 8/14/09, Milos Przic milos.pr...@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, fighting game would be cool, something I have been waiting for since
 I first saw an audio game!
 - Original Message -
 From: CSF inc. elohee...@verizon.net
 To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list
 gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:13 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


 Your the man, and can't wait for your football game, dude, call me
 personally.. As for a fighting game. I can only wish, and allot of other
 blind gamers I know is starving for it.. And what about up to dat music?
 Rock, Hip - Hop, club, dance.. Come on it's almost 2010.. Later
 - Original Message -
 From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 10:01 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


 I agree with ya man,
  I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was
 somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too
 complicated to play.
  folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too
 much practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks
 all the time.
   next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse
 support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high
 end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting
 game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and
 didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to

 sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would
 have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot,

 as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough

 of them out there to justify the time spent.
 you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done,

 but it will have to wait.
 I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to
 sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just

 a simple shoot em up.
  anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if
 folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer
 passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
  as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they
 do, and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists
 lately from what i've seen.
 We can only hope that changes soon.
 This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands

 of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love
 doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
  I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of
 my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they
 are the best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen
 anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this
 stuff.
 i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there,
 hosted by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the

 damage they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they don't
 care. i know some of them are reading this, and if you are sharing any
 cracked games, you should be very ashamed of yourself. in sucha small
 market, the damage you are doing is immense.
  Bottom line, if your a fellow developer working on a game now, my hat is

 off to you, this is a hard task without much reward or thanks, but non
 developers don't get that  and don't seem to care

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

I agree, and I loved the trailer for Star Wars Jedi Attack.. Hey, you guys 
do a great job, bottom line.. I know developers are true gamers at the very 
core and that is what pushes you to make games in general, I just would like 
to see that 13 year old gamer come back out in the creation of games; Like 
when I played Coleko Vision for the first time.. Smile
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Hi,
Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have are a 
bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers, but there 
really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to speak of besides 
Rail Racer.
For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories. 
Either they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type theme. 
Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to what was 
available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main reason I began 
writing accesible games myself.
As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact it is 
a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible developer can 
use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands it could be used to 
create some killer accessible games. We have already seen what it can do 
with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander, and I think with some updates it 
should be able to create games more or less on par with Star Trek Elite 
Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight,  etc. In some respects it isn't the fault of 
the tool here, but perhaps it is the developer's lack of imagination, 
creativity, or experience with full blown FPS games here.
As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project on 
hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work with Lucas 
Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when Alchemy closed up I 
took over their games and projects which I want to complete before 
returning to my own original projects.

CSF inc. wrote:
With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's disappointing; 
There are interesting games we play but very few; other games are not 
accessible to certain computers and operating systems; others are so 
simple and plain, for some of us who has played regular games, it's 
disheartening; Effort should be made into making games more involved, 
more ideas ie stop making games off of GMA's frame work, There is only 
1 Shades, 1 Tank Commander..  lastly, we need games we can play along 
with our sighted family like Soul Caliber. We have no fighting games, 
no sports games we can play without some A.I. making it not real; even 
though the 2nd best player in the world in Mortal Combat is Blind!! We 
should of taken that  initiative

 and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal.. Are 
blind people not sports fans? would we like to box? run the football? aim 
the pitch in a baseball game? even fly a F-16 in combat.. Sim's are O.K. 
I guess, but it takes the control and fun out of the game.. Some will 
complain about this post, some will agree; the point is We Need More 
Variety, And Not The Same Games With Different Titles.. What happened to 
Star Wars Jedi attack? OOh Yeah Baby..

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

I see this situation as a challenge, I feel with correct marketing and 
advertising of the games the market would expand; NFB, ACB and others could 
be considered as a avenue of advertisement. Secondly, even paying monthly 
for a on - line Digital Marketing, company to push the games for the first 
few months will expand your profitability. Word of mouth is also a great way 
and one of the best ways of advertisement; seriously hitting game blogs and 
forums is a good way to accomplish this.. Just some ideas..
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Hi Che,
I know the feeling. I'm not sure why but simple and easy games appears to 
be what sells in the accessible games market. As many people know one of 
my plans will be to create a full blown 3d game engine, as in actual 3d 
levels with 3d objects, 3d movement, as well as 3d audio support. No 
sooner did i mention my plans I got various comments to the effect that 
anything I made using it would be too hard even though they never seen 
the final product yet.
One of the things that bothered me was some people immediately tried to 
tell me that because they have problems with Audioquake and Technoshock 
they absolutely know that they couldn't play any of my games. They didn't 
seam to consider the fact that with Audioquake accessibility is poorly 
implemented, and because it is  a modified version of Quake it wasn't 
designed from the ground up for a blind player. Accessibility is an add 
on, and there could be a lot more done to it to provide accessibility. 
Technoshock also has some accessibility issues, that make it harder than 
say Shades of Doom to play, and i feel accessibility could b done better 
in that game. I've seen what works and what doesn't and I'd use that 
experience plus my own blindness to work out any and all accessibility 
problems that might crop up.
Anyway, the bottom line is now and then we see a thread like this where 
someone suggests coming up with something new, something different, 
something more mainstream, and when a developer tries to do that, come up 
with something truly amazing like Rail Racer, the complaints thatit is too 
hard come rolling in. As a developer we really can't win. No matter if we 
do something easy or something new and slightly challenging someone is 
going to complain.

Che wrote:

I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too 
much practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks 
all the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to 
sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would 
have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot, 
as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough 
of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done, 
but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just 
a simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they 
do, and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists 
lately from what i've seen.

We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands 
of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love 
doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of 
my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they 
are the best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen 
anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this 
stuff.
i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, 
hosted by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the 
damage they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they don't 
care. i know some of them are reading this, and if you are sharing any 
cracked games, you should be very

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Its pretty sad, if I must say so myself, because gamers are basicly just 
shooting themselves in  the foot.


They ask for enw games, then they complain.

Not pointing fingers here, but its what I've noticed.
Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi Che,
I know the feeling. I'm not sure why but simple and easy games appears to 
be what sells in the accessible games market. As many people know one of 
my plans will be to create a full blown 3d game engine, as in actual 3d 
levels with 3d objects, 3d movement, as well as 3d audio support. No 
sooner did i mention my plans I got various comments to the effect that 
anything I made using it would be too hard even though they never seen 
the final product yet.
One of the things that bothered me was some people immediately tried to 
tell me that because they have problems with Audioquake and Technoshock 
they absolutely know that they couldn't play any of my games. They didn't 
seam to consider the fact that with Audioquake accessibility is poorly 
implemented, and because it is  a modified version of Quake it wasn't 
designed from the ground up for a blind player. Accessibility is an add 
on, and there could be a lot more done to it to provide accessibility. 
Technoshock also has some accessibility issues, that make it harder than 
say Shades of Doom to play, and i feel accessibility could b done better 
in that game. I've seen what works and what doesn't and I'd use that 
experience plus my own blindness to work out any and all accessibility 
problems that might crop up.
Anyway, the bottom line is now and then we see a thread like this where 
someone suggests coming up with something new, something different, 
something more mainstream, and when a developer tries to do that, come up 
with something truly amazing like Rail Racer, the complaints thatit is too 
hard come rolling in. As a developer we really can't win. No matter if we 
do something easy or something new and slightly challenging someone is 
going to complain.



Che wrote:

I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too 
much practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks 
all the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to 
sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would 
have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot, 
as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough 
of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done, 
but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just 
a simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they 
do, and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists 
lately from what i've seen.

We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands 
of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love 
doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of 
my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they 
are the best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen 
anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this 
stuff.
i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, 
hosted by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the 
damage they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they don't 
care. i know some of them are reading this, and if you are sharing any 
cracked games, you should be very ashamed of yourself. in sucha small 
market, the damage you are doing is immense.
 Bottom line, if your a fellow developer working on a game now, my hat is 
off to you, this is a hard task without much reward or thanks, but non 
developers don't

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

You're definitely right about that Tristan. Many of us complain about how 
most games are too easy, which I can definitely agree with, but then when 
something new comes out or is even mentioned we start whining and snivelling 
about how it'd be too hard. Take Technoshock for instance. Granted I spent 
months on Technoshock before I got really frustrated with it, but I saw 
complaints on the audiogames.net forum within days. Some were quite rude as 
I recall.
 But if this business between myself and my girlfriend Angel works out 
hopefully the AG market will start to see some games we can really be proud 
of. My girlfriend is a fairly apt programmer I found out and when I 
mentioned the idea of computer games for the blind she got really excited 
and wanted us to work together on something. She might even join this list. 
It's one of the places I referred her to for information.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Tristan B theblinddj...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Its pretty sad, if I must say so myself, because gamers are basicly just 
shooting themselves in  the foot.


They ask for enw games, then they complain.

Not pointing fingers here, but its what I've noticed.
Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi Che,
I know the feeling. I'm not sure why but simple and easy games appears to 
be what sells in the accessible games market. As many people know one of 
my plans will be to create a full blown 3d game engine, as in actual 3d 
levels with 3d objects, 3d movement, as well as 3d audio support. No 
sooner did i mention my plans I got various comments to the effect that 
anything I made using it would be too hard even though they never seen 
the final product yet.
One of the things that bothered me was some people immediately tried to 
tell me that because they have problems with Audioquake and Technoshock 
they absolutely know that they couldn't play any of my games. They didn't 
seam to consider the fact that with Audioquake accessibility is poorly 
implemented, and because it is  a modified version of Quake it wasn't 
designed from the ground up for a blind player. Accessibility is an add 
on, and there could be a lot more done to it to provide accessibility. 
Technoshock also has some accessibility issues, that make it harder than 
say Shades of Doom to play, and i feel accessibility could b done better 
in that game. I've seen what works and what doesn't and I'd use that 
experience plus my own blindness to work out any and all accessibility 
problems that might crop up.
Anyway, the bottom line is now and then we see a thread like this where 
someone suggests coming up with something new, something different, 
something more mainstream, and when a developer tries to do that, come up 
with something truly amazing like Rail Racer, the complaints thatit is 
too hard come rolling in. As a developer we really can't win. No matter 
if we do something easy or something new and slightly challenging someone 
is going to complain.



Che wrote:

I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too 
much practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks 
all the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going 
to sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that 
would have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it 
a lot, as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just 
aren't enough of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get 
done, but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its 
just a simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they 
do, and so

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hello,
I sure hope it does; it sounds like you and her would make a great game dev 
team. *grins*. And I agree holeheartedly with your message..


Regards,
Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


You're definitely right about that Tristan. Many of us complain about how 
most games are too easy, which I can definitely agree with, but then when 
something new comes out or is even mentioned we start whining and 
snivelling about how it'd be too hard. Take Technoshock for instance. 
Granted I spent months on Technoshock before I got really frustrated with 
it, but I saw complaints on the audiogames.net forum within days. Some 
were quite rude as I recall.
 But if this business between myself and my girlfriend Angel works out 
hopefully the AG market will start to see some games we can really be 
proud of. My girlfriend is a fairly apt programmer I found out and when I 
mentioned the idea of computer games for the blind she got really excited 
and wanted us to work together on something. She might even join this 
list. It's one of the places I referred her to for information.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Tristan B theblinddj...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Its pretty sad, if I must say so myself, because gamers are basicly just 
shooting themselves in  the foot.


They ask for enw games, then they complain.

Not pointing fingers here, but its what I've noticed.
Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi Che,
I know the feeling. I'm not sure why but simple and easy games appears 
to be what sells in the accessible games market. As many people know one 
of my plans will be to create a full blown 3d game engine, as in actual 
3d levels with 3d objects, 3d movement, as well as 3d audio support. No 
sooner did i mention my plans I got various comments to the effect that 
anything I made using it would be too hard even though they never seen 
the final product yet.
One of the things that bothered me was some people immediately tried to 
tell me that because they have problems with Audioquake and Technoshock 
they absolutely know that they couldn't play any of my games. They 
didn't seam to consider the fact that with Audioquake accessibility is 
poorly implemented, and because it is  a modified version of Quake it 
wasn't designed from the ground up for a blind player. Accessibility is 
an add on, and there could be a lot more done to it to provide 
accessibility. Technoshock also has some accessibility issues, that make 
it harder than say Shades of Doom to play, and i feel accessibility 
could b done better in that game. I've seen what works and what doesn't 
and I'd use that experience plus my own blindness to work out any and 
all accessibility problems that might crop up.
Anyway, the bottom line is now and then we see a thread like this where 
someone suggests coming up with something new, something different, 
something more mainstream, and when a developer tries to do that, come 
up with something truly amazing like Rail Racer, the complaints thatit 
is too hard come rolling in. As a developer we really can't win. No 
matter if we do something easy or something new and slightly challenging 
someone is going to complain.



Che wrote:

I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too 
much practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the 
folks all the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going 
to sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that 
would have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed 
it a lot, as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just 
aren't enough of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get 
done, but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread Charles Rivard

I'll bet that technical support for a game that was created by a bunch of 
different developers would be a mess, too.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts.
- Original Message - 
From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

regarding the idea of developers teaming up, it is a great idea in theory, 
but a diffficult one to put into practice in reality.
 every developer i have talked to without exception, myself included have 
large egos and set ways of doing things, this would be a serious problem i 
think.

secondly, deciding how to whack up the proceeds would be a huge issue.
 lastly, all involved would have to agree on a language to use for 
programming, which may or may not be a big problem depending on folks 
involved.
anyhow, if some developers can get something done as a group, i'm all for 
it. but i know as for myself, i work better alone, where the vision is 
one, all problems as well as successes are also mine alone to deal with, 
and if something is screwed up, i have nobody to blame but myself.
 i think this could work out if everyone agreed on the outline of the 
project, and designed things modularly so each programmer would have their 
own little corner to work on, which could be intergrated into the whole 
later on. once again, easier said than done.

later
che

- Original Message - 
From: william lomas lomaswill...@googlemail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

it will be interesting though to be fair, to see what draconis have up 
their sleives. i thought 2009 was the year for draconis, but nothing  as 
of yet?

On 14 Aug 2009, at 07:29, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi,
Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have  are a 
bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers,  but 
there really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to  speak 
of besides Rail Racer.
For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories. 
Either they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type 
theme. Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to  what 
was available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main  reason I 
began writing accesible games myself.
As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact  it 
is a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible  developer 
can use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands  it could be 
used to create some killer accessible games. We have  already seen what 
it can do with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander,  and I think with some 
updates it should be able to create games more  or less on par with Star 
Trek Elite Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight,   etc. In some respects it 
isn't the fault of the tool here, but  perhaps it is the developer's 
lack of imagination, creativity, or  experience with full blown FPS 
games here.
As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project  on 
hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work  with 
Lucas Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when  Alchemy 
closed up I took over their games and projects which I want  to complete 
before returning to my own original projects.

CSF inc. wrote:
With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's 
disappointing; There are interesting games we play but very few;  other 
games are not accessible to certain computers and operating  systems; 
others are so simple and plain, for some of us who has  played regular 
games, it's disheartening; Effort should be made  into making games 
more involved, more ideas ie stop making games  off of GMA's frame 
work, There is only 1 Shades, 1 Tank  Commander..  lastly, we need 
games we can play along with our  sighted family like Soul Caliber. 
We have no fighting games, no  sports games we can play without some 
A.I. making it not real; even  though the 2nd best player in the world 
in Mortal Combat is Blind!!  We should of taken that  initiative

and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal.. 
Are blind people not sports fans? would we like to box? run the 
football? aim the pitch in a baseball game? even fly a F-16 in 
combat.. Sim's are O.K. I guess, but it takes the control and fun  out 
of the game.. Some will complain about this post, some will  agree; the 
point is We Need More Variety, And Not The Same Games  With Different 
Titles.. What happened to Star Wars Jedi attack? OOh  Yeah Baby..

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Re: [Audyssey] the real game circle

2009-08-14 Thread Josh

Hi,
I wish liteTech interactive would come back, the trailor for their star wars 
game sounded pretty cool. 

Josh

Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: 
http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html 
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http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337
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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread James Howard

I'll admit, I'm not into audio games that much, because of the simple
fact, they're like some say, not really inovative.  I don't know about
rail racer, cause I haven't ried it yet, but I'm planning on doing so.
If I do play any audio games, I only stick to the ones that go online,
thats the biggest threal I get out of them right now.
I go with alot of people said, I would love to see more complex stuff,
real rpgs, just to name a certain type I like.  but if I game was more
complex, had more of a plot, and alot more involved, I'd be more into
playing it.
I enjoy the stuff Che has done with the online card stuff, I'm sort of
hooked on that.

On 8/14/09, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 I'll bet that technical support for a game that was created by a bunch of
 different developers would be a mess, too.
 ---
 Shepherds are the best beasts.
 - Original Message -
 From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:48 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


 regarding the idea of developers teaming up, it is a great idea in theory,

 but a diffficult one to put into practice in reality.
  every developer i have talked to without exception, myself included have
 large egos and set ways of doing things, this would be a serious problem i

 think.
 secondly, deciding how to whack up the proceeds would be a huge issue.
  lastly, all involved would have to agree on a language to use for
 programming, which may or may not be a big problem depending on folks
 involved.
 anyhow, if some developers can get something done as a group, i'm all for
 it. but i know as for myself, i work better alone, where the vision is
 one, all problems as well as successes are also mine alone to deal with,
 and if something is screwed up, i have nobody to blame but myself.
  i think this could work out if everyone agreed on the outline of the
 project, and designed things modularly so each programmer would have their

 own little corner to work on, which could be intergrated into the whole
 later on. once again, easier said than done.
 later
 che

 - Original Message -
 From: william lomas lomaswill...@googlemail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:31 AM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


 it will be interesting though to be fair, to see what draconis have up
 their sleives. i thought 2009 was the year for draconis, but nothing  as
 of yet?

 On 14 Aug 2009, at 07:29, Thomas Ward wrote:

 Hi,
 Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have  are a

 bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers,  but
 there really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to  speak
 of besides Rail Racer.
 For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories.
 Either they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type
 theme. Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to  what

 was available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main  reason I
 began writing accesible games myself.
 As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact  it
 is a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible  developer
 can use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands  it could be
 used to create some killer accessible games. We have  already seen what
 it can do with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander,  and I think with some

 updates it should be able to create games more  or less on par with Star

 Trek Elite Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight,   etc. In some respects it
 isn't the fault of the tool here, but  perhaps it is the developer's
 lack of imagination, creativity, or  experience with full blown FPS
 games here.
 As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project  on

 hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work  with
 Lucas Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when  Alchemy
 closed up I took over their games and projects which I want  to complete

 before returning to my own original projects.

 CSF inc. wrote:
 With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's
 disappointing; There are interesting games we play but very few;  other

 games are not accessible to certain computers and operating  systems;
 others are so simple and plain, for some of us who has  played regular

 games, it's disheartening; Effort should be made  into making games
 more involved, more ideas ie stop making games  off of GMA's frame
 work, There is only 1 Shades, 1 Tank  Commander..  lastly, we need
 games we can play along with our  sighted family like Soul Caliber.
 We have no fighting games, no  sports games we can play without some
 A.I. making it not real; even  though the 2nd best player in the world
 in Mortal Combat is Blind!!  We should of taken that  initiative

 and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal..
 Are blind people

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Personally I could care less about online play. I don't know, I've just 
never had much interest in it. But I imagine my games will probably include 
the option at some point even if not right away.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: James Howard coldshadow...@gmail.com
To: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

I'll admit, I'm not into audio games that much, because of the simple
fact, they're like some say, not really inovative.  I don't know about
rail racer, cause I haven't ried it yet, but I'm planning on doing so.
If I do play any audio games, I only stick to the ones that go online,
thats the biggest threal I get out of them right now.
I go with alot of people said, I would love to see more complex stuff,
real rpgs, just to name a certain type I like.  but if I game was more
complex, had more of a plot, and alot more involved, I'd be more into
playing it.
I enjoy the stuff Che has done with the online card stuff, I'm sort of
hooked on that.

On 8/14/09, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

I'll bet that technical support for a game that was created by a bunch of
different developers would be a mess, too.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts.
- Original Message -
From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

regarding the idea of developers teaming up, it is a great idea in 
theory,

but a diffficult one to put into practice in reality.
 every developer i have talked to without exception, myself included 
have
large egos and set ways of doing things, this would be a serious problem 
i

think.
secondly, deciding how to whack up the proceeds would be a huge issue.
 lastly, all involved would have to agree on a language to use for
programming, which may or may not be a big problem depending on folks
involved.
anyhow, if some developers can get something done as a group, i'm all 
for

it. but i know as for myself, i work better alone, where the vision is
one, all problems as well as successes are also mine alone to deal with,
and if something is screwed up, i have nobody to blame but myself.
 i think this could work out if everyone agreed on the outline of the
project, and designed things modularly so each programmer would have 
their

own little corner to work on, which could be intergrated into the whole
later on. once again, easier said than done.
later
che

- Original Message -
From: william lomas lomaswill...@googlemail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

it will be interesting though to be fair, to see what draconis have up
their sleives. i thought 2009 was the year for draconis, but nothing 
as

of yet?

On 14 Aug 2009, at 07:29, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi,
Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have  are 
a

bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers,  but
there really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to  speak
of besides Rail Racer.
For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories.
Either they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type
theme. Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to 
what

was available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main  reason I
began writing accesible games myself.
As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact 
it
is a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible 
developer

can use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands  it could be
used to create some killer accessible games. We have  already seen 
what
it can do with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander,  and I think with 
some

updates it should be able to create games more  or less on par with 
Star

Trek Elite Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight,   etc. In some respects it
isn't the fault of the tool here, but  perhaps it is the developer's
lack of imagination, creativity, or  experience with full blown FPS
games here.
As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project 
on

hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work  with
Lucas Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when  Alchemy
closed up I took over their games and projects which I want  to 
complete

before returning to my own original projects.

CSF inc. wrote:

With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's
disappointing; There are interesting games we play but very few; 
other

games are not accessible to certain computers and operating  systems;
others are so simple and plain, for some of us who has  played 
regular

games, it's disheartening; Effort should be made

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

well I have always accepted we will always be behind the sighted, no way in 
fridays that we will ever catch up.
and we either catch up or try to adapt.
I have the same issue with a voice recorder, I use soni as a prefured recorder 
as 
they record in a format meaning better space for recording and then convert for 
playback.
my recorder I used to use is quite accessible, but lately it has died the other 
I have is semi accessible but the recorder itself is not so basic things only 
and hmph.
Am getting another later to replace the other broke one.
this will again not be accessible but if the computer control is then I will be 
in luck.
if it is not I have older software which should work but ofcause that means I 
probably won't have the latest features.
its the nature of the beast.
At 02:48 a.m. 15/08/2009, you wrote:
Its pretty sad, if I must say so myself, because gamers are basicly just 
shooting themselves in  the foot.

They ask for enw games, then they complain.

Not pointing fingers here, but its what I've noticed.
Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi Che,
I know the feeling. I'm not sure why but simple and easy games appears to be 
what sells in the accessible games market. As many people know one of my 
plans will be to create a full blown 3d game engine, as in actual 3d levels 
with 3d objects, 3d movement, as well as 3d audio support. No sooner did i 
mention my plans I got various comments to the effect that anything I made 
using it would be too hard even though they never seen the final product 
yet.
One of the things that bothered me was some people immediately tried to tell 
me that because they have problems with Audioquake and Technoshock they 
absolutely know that they couldn't play any of my games. They didn't seam to 
consider the fact that with Audioquake accessibility is poorly implemented, 
and because it is  a modified version of Quake it wasn't designed from the 
ground up for a blind player. Accessibility is an add on, and there could be 
a lot more done to it to provide accessibility. Technoshock also has some 
accessibility issues, that make it harder than say Shades of Doom to play, 
and i feel accessibility could b done better in that game. I've seen what 
works and what doesn't and I'd use that experience plus my own blindness to 
work out any and all accessibility problems that might crop up.
Anyway, the bottom line is now and then we see a thread like this where 
someone suggests coming up with something new, something different, something 
more mainstream, and when a developer tries to do that, come up with 
something truly amazing like Rail Racer, the complaints thatit is too hard 
come rolling in. As a developer we really can't win. No matter if we do 
something easy or something new and slightly challenging someone is going to 
complain.


Che wrote:
I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was somewhat 
 successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too complicated to 
 play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too much 
 practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks all the 
 time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
 support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high end 
 sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting game as 
 posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and didn't want to 
 spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to sell, especially 
 such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would have enjoyed the 
 online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot, as those that play 
 rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough of them out there to 
 justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done, 
but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just a 
simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
 folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
 passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they do, 
 and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists lately 
 from what i've seen.
We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands of 
hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love doing 
it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

well  I am in pkd, which has piter mach in it.
At least from the projects I run some of them say this.
no official site yet though all there is is bits and bobs some of which I will 
comment on at some point.
At 06:07 a.m. 15/08/2009, you wrote:
I'll bet that technical support for a game that was created by a bunch of 
different developers would be a mess, too.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts.
- Original Message - From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


regarding the idea of developers teaming up, it is a great idea in theory, 
but a diffficult one to put into practice in reality.
 every developer i have talked to without exception, myself included have 
 large egos and set ways of doing things, this would be a serious problem i 
 think.
secondly, deciding how to whack up the proceeds would be a huge issue.
 lastly, all involved would have to agree on a language to use for 
 programming, which may or may not be a big problem depending on folks 
 involved.
anyhow, if some developers can get something done as a group, i'm all for it. 
but i know as for myself, i work better alone, where the vision is one, all 
problems as well as successes are also mine alone to deal with, and if 
something is screwed up, i have nobody to blame but myself.
 i think this could work out if everyone agreed on the outline of the 
 project, and designed things modularly so each programmer would have their 
 own little corner to work on, which could be intergrated into the whole 
 later on. once again, easier said than done.
later
che

- Original Message - From: william lomas 
lomaswill...@googlemail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


it will be interesting though to be fair, to see what draconis have up their 
sleives. i thought 2009 was the year for draconis, but nothing  as of yet?

On 14 Aug 2009, at 07:29, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi,
Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have  are a 
bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers,  but there 
really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to  speak of besides 
Rail Racer.
For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories. Either 
they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type theme. 
Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to  what was 
available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main  reason I began 
writing accesible games myself.
As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact  it is 
a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible  developer can 
use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands  it could be used to 
create some killer accessible games. We have  already seen what it can do 
with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander,  and I think with some updates it 
should be able to create games more  or less on par with Star Trek Elite 
Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight,   etc. In some respects it isn't the fault of 
the tool here, but  perhaps it is the developer's lack of imagination, 
creativity, or  experience with full blown FPS games here.
As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project  on 
hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work  with Lucas 
Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when  Alchemy closed up I 
took over their games and projects which I want  to complete before 
returning to my own original projects.

CSF inc. wrote:
With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's disappointing; 
There are interesting games we play but very few;  other games are not 
accessible to certain computers and operating  systems; others are so 
simple and plain, for some of us who has  played regular games, it's 
disheartening; Effort should be made  into making games more involved, 
more ideas ie stop making games  off of GMA's frame work, There is only 
1 Shades, 1 Tank  Commander..  lastly, we need games we can play along 
with our  sighted family like Soul Caliber. We have no fighting games, 
no  sports games we can play without some A.I. making it not real; even  
though the 2nd best player in the world in Mortal Combat is Blind!!  We 
should of taken that  initiative

and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal.. Are 
blind people not sports fans? would we like to box? run the football? aim 
the pitch in a baseball game? even fly a F-16 in combat.. Sim's are O.K. I 
guess, but it takes the control and fun  out of the game.. Some will 
complain about this post, some will  agree; the point is We Need More 
Variety, And Not The Same Games  With Different Titles.. What happened to 
Star Wars Jedi attack? OOh  Yeah Baby..
---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
gamers

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread michael barnes

i agree with you since i lost my sight that is all i can play is audio 
games they do remind me of old video games that i enjoy playing but it 
would be cool to play never before ideals that none of the sighted game 
maker ever came up with i do wish someone would make a newer version of 
distnation mars and run for presdinent


--
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread michael barnes

yes a fighting game would be cool i wish someone would make a mortal 
kombat game like the old ones not like the ones on ps2


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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

try radio shack and the olympus series; excellent, hit a button and pull and 
the USB exposes itself, plug right into your port and Wham! For gaming the 
quality is great, the audio files can be transferred easily and enhanced 
with effects or whatever you like; great to tape live sounds for any 
background of games..
- Original Message - 
From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

well I have always accepted we will always be behind the sighted, no way 
in fridays that we will ever catch up.

and we either catch up or try to adapt.
I have the same issue with a voice recorder, I use soni as a prefured 
recorder as
they record in a format meaning better space for recording and then 
convert for playback.
my recorder I used to use is quite accessible, but lately it has died the 
other I have is semi accessible but the recorder itself is not so basic 
things only and hmph.

Am getting another later to replace the other broke one.
this will again not be accessible but if the computer control is then I 
will be in luck.
if it is not I have older software which should work but ofcause that 
means I probably won't have the latest features.

its the nature of the beast.
At 02:48 a.m. 15/08/2009, you wrote:
Its pretty sad, if I must say so myself, because gamers are basicly just 
shooting themselves in  the foot.

They ask for enw games, then they complain.

Not pointing fingers here, but its what I've noticed.
Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward 
thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Hi Che,
I know the feeling. I'm not sure why but simple and easy games appears to 
be what sells in the accessible games market. As many people know one of 
my plans will be to create a full blown 3d game engine, as in actual 3d 
levels with 3d objects, 3d movement, as well as 3d audio support. No 
sooner did i mention my plans I got various comments to the effect that 
anything I made using it would be too hard even though they never seen 
the final product yet.
One of the things that bothered me was some people immediately tried to 
tell me that because they have problems with Audioquake and Technoshock 
they absolutely know that they couldn't play any of my games. They didn't 
seam to consider the fact that with Audioquake accessibility is poorly 
implemented, and because it is  a modified version of Quake it wasn't 
designed from the ground up for a blind player. Accessibility is an add 
on, and there could be a lot more done to it to provide accessibility. 
Technoshock also has some accessibility issues, that make it harder than 
say Shades of Doom to play, and i feel accessibility could b done better 
in that game. I've seen what works and what doesn't and I'd use that 
experience plus my own blindness to work out any and all accessibility 
problems that might crop up.
Anyway, the bottom line is now and then we see a thread like this where 
someone suggests coming up with something new, something different, 
something more mainstream, and when a developer tries to do that, come up 
with something truly amazing like Rail Racer, the complaints thatit is 
too hard come rolling in. As a developer we really can't win. No matter 
if we do something easy or something new and slightly challenging someone 
is going to complain.

Che wrote:

I agree with ya man,
I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too 
much practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the 
folks all the time.
 next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going 
to sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that 
would have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed 
it a lot, as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just 
aren't enough of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get 
done, but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its 
just a simple shoot em up.
anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


totally agree with you there.

RPG's are my favorite, or close to it.

That's why I have started in coding my own MOO, which is a type of MUD -- on 
my MUD I enforce being in-character, so the RP gets very intensive, at 
times. I also like how adventurous MUDS and other text-games can seem at 
times. That's why they call the older text games text-adventures, I would 
imagine.


- Original Message - 
From: James Howard coldshadow...@gmail.com
To: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



I'll admit, I'm not into audio games that much, because of the simple
fact, they're like some say, not really inovative.  I don't know about
rail racer, cause I haven't ried it yet, but I'm planning on doing so.
If I do play any audio games, I only stick to the ones that go online,
thats the biggest threal I get out of them right now.
I go with alot of people said, I would love to see more complex stuff,
real rpgs, just to name a certain type I like.  but if I game was more
complex, had more of a plot, and alot more involved, I'd be more into
playing it.
I enjoy the stuff Che has done with the online card stuff, I'm sort of
hooked on that.

On 8/14/09, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

I'll bet that technical support for a game that was created by a bunch of
different developers would be a mess, too.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts.
- Original Message -
From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


regarding the idea of developers teaming up, it is a great idea in 
theory,


but a diffficult one to put into practice in reality.
 every developer i have talked to without exception, myself included 
have
large egos and set ways of doing things, this would be a serious problem 
i


think.
secondly, deciding how to whack up the proceeds would be a huge issue.
 lastly, all involved would have to agree on a language to use for
programming, which may or may not be a big problem depending on folks
involved.
anyhow, if some developers can get something done as a group, i'm all 
for

it. but i know as for myself, i work better alone, where the vision is
one, all problems as well as successes are also mine alone to deal with,
and if something is screwed up, i have nobody to blame but myself.
 i think this could work out if everyone agreed on the outline of the
project, and designed things modularly so each programmer would have 
their


own little corner to work on, which could be intergrated into the whole
later on. once again, easier said than done.
later
che

- Original Message -
From: william lomas lomaswill...@googlemail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



it will be interesting though to be fair, to see what draconis have up
their sleives. i thought 2009 was the year for draconis, but nothing 
as

of yet?

On 14 Aug 2009, at 07:29, Thomas Ward wrote:


Hi,
Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have  are 
a


bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers,  but
there really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to  speak
of besides Rail Racer.
For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories.
Either they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type
theme. Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to 
what


was available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main  reason I
began writing accesible games myself.
As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact 
it
is a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible 
developer

can use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands  it could be
used to create some killer accessible games. We have  already seen 
what
it can do with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander,  and I think with 
some


updates it should be able to create games more  or less on par with 
Star


Trek Elite Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight,   etc. In some respects it
isn't the fault of the tool here, but  perhaps it is the developer's
lack of imagination, creativity, or  experience with full blown FPS
games here.
As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project 
on


hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work  with
Lucas Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when  Alchemy
closed up I took over their games and projects which I want  to 
complete


before returning to my own original projects.

CSF inc. wrote:

With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's
disappointing; There are interesting games we play but very few; 
other


games are not accessible to certain computers and operating  systems;
others are so simple and plain, for some of us who

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,
Not to take you down, but...

Sadly, it seems to me like the sighted come up with every idea that we have 
before it ever even seemed like an idea. They have millions and still 
counting of video games released in one country. Thousands for single 
consoles, sometimes it seems like whatever ideas I think up are copyrighted 
or used somewhere else.


That's just me. I may not have the spark of creativity that others may have, 
or I may be right. Just my oppinion.


Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net

To: gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


i agree with you since i lost my sight that is all i can play is audio 
games they do remind me of old video games that i enjoy playing but it 
would be cool to play never before ideals that none of the sighted game 
maker ever came up with i do wish someone would make a newer version of 
distnation mars and run for presdinent


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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread Charles Rivard

As for game creation ideas, I think of it this way:  How long have games for 
the blind been produced and by how many companies?  Compare this with the 
number of companies that have been producing games for the sighted and the 
period of time they have been doing so.  Fresh ideas are bound to be hard to 
come by.  It's not because of a lack of creativity.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts.
- Original Message - 
From: Tristan B theblinddj...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi,
Not to take you down, but...

Sadly, it seems to me like the sighted come up with every idea that we 
have before it ever even seemed like an idea. They have millions and still 
counting of video games released in one country. Thousands for single 
consoles, sometimes it seems like whatever ideas I think up are 
copyrighted or used somewhere else.


That's just me. I may not have the spark of creativity that others may 
have, or I may be right. Just my oppinion.


Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net

To: gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


i agree with you since i lost my sight that is all i can play is audio 
games they do remind me of old video games that i enjoy playing but it 
would be cool to play never before ideals that none of the sighted game 
maker ever came up with i do wish someone would make a newer version of 
distnation mars and run for presdinent


--
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www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

well to tell you the truth there are not so many big shots now.
in fact nothing has made the headlines of late.
no big company has released anything lately that has hit the lines either my 
friend that is sighted says he does pick the odd bit up but its not as bussy as 
it was like a year or 2 back.
At 08:41 a.m. 15/08/2009, you wrote:
Hi,
Not to take you down, but...

Sadly, it seems to me like the sighted come up with every idea that we have 
before it ever even seemed like an idea. They have millions and still counting 
of video games released in one country. Thousands for single consoles, 
sometimes it seems like whatever ideas I think up are copyrighted or used 
somewhere else.

That's just me. I may not have the spark of creativity that others may have, 
or I may be right. Just my oppinion.

Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net
To: gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


i agree with you since i lost my sight that is all i can play is audio games 
they do remind me of old video games that i enjoy playing but it would be 
cool to play never before ideals that none of the sighted game maker ever 
came up with i do wish someone would make a newer version of distnation mars 
and run for presdinent

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,
All too true. In many cases it boils down to the difference between a 
corporation and a small business. Comparatively speaking none of us 
accessible developers are in the same league with the mainstream game 
companies. That
is why we really can't compare with the latest and greatest Play Station 
and XBox titles.
The major mainstream game companies have a really large operating budget 
with teams of developers, graphics designers, story writers, actors, etc 
to work on a really high quality game product, and had excellent 
training to start with.
The accessible game companies we have are one to three man operations. 
Most of the developers are self-taught, and learn as they go. They have 
small operating budgets which means they can't higher a lot of voice 
talent, buy sounds and music tracks, etc. It is really remarkable what 
has been done with the resources that have been available to the 
accessible game developers so far.
As you pointed out yourself a tool like the GMA Game engine saves a 
developer countless hours of development time. The core features of a 
game such as input handling, sound system, core classes, etc are already 
in the engine. A developer needs to script the game levels, monsters, 
etc and bang you have a new game.
Once I complete my Genesis engine I'll be similarly able to produce 
games quickly and with relative ease. My game engine has a level editor 
that allows me to move the cursor over an area and draw a wall, door, 
staircase, rope, etc. This obviously saves time since I'm drawing the 
level with an editor rather than coding it all by hand.



Scott Chesworth wrote:

Sure, I'd love a huge library of varied titles to choose from as much
as the next bored blind guy with a penchant for gaming, but to be
blunt, saying I want this, we need that doesn't actually do much.
For your I want this, we need that to become a reality, the fact is
that somebody has got to sit down and put in the hours of story
creation, game design, and hard graft coding to make the product.  The
reason that people use the GMA engine seems to be that it's stable and
will save them hundreds of hours of building their own from scratch.
The reason that we're lacking variation is that a developer with a
great imagination, top writing skills, a knack for inivative
usability, bags of skill at writing code, and tons of time to pour
into all those things and probably some others I've missed hasn't
materialised yet.  The creation of mainstream titles has that work
load spread across huge teams of people in the cases of the games you
mentioned, most of the time we're talking about whole teams for each
specific area.  Every one of those people gets paid full time to do
it, has an actual budget to work with, and has probably fought pretty
hard to be doing the job they're doing.  Maybe you're actually the
developer we need having read all that?  I know I'm not.

I skated over a few points about graphics etc because they were...
well... a bit ridiculous.
Sorry it's slightly ranty, I've just had a surprising hour of
discovering how much playability there is left in the games I own now
I've switched away from the keyboard and I don't like seeing the good
developers we actually do have being put down much.

Scott
  



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,
Yeah, a game like Civilization or Galaxy Civilization would totally 
rock. However, as you pointed out that is a rather large task for a one 
or two man operation.
A couple of games I really miss from my sighted days is Mech Warrior and 
Starcraft. Those were a couple of cool games that have no accessible 
equivalents currently. There are lots of cool games like that which are 
old hat for mainstream gamers, but blind gamers haven't even got started 
with games like that yet.


Zachary Kline wrote:

Hi,
I for one will wholeheartedly agree with this.  My personal preference
runs more for grand strategy, along the lines of Master of Orion,
Civilization, etc.  I can currently play both these games somewhat
awkwardly via sighted proxy.  I wish I didn't have to do it that way.
What we need is something like the currently accessible Anacreon
Reconstruction with better AI and diplomacy options.
Just my two cents here.  I know these kinds of games are probably the
hardest to program, despite not having any realtime or 3D audio or what
have you.
All the best,
Zack.

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Ideas themselves, such as general storylines, can't be copyrighted. It's 
when you start using the names of characters and places that you run the 
risk of legal trouble. I imagine the main reason people like Phil haven't 
run into trouble about Sarah and the Castle of Witchcraft and Wizardry, 
which does use names and locations from copyrighted books, is that we're 
such a small community. But at the same time that's no guaranteer of safety 
as THomas found out.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


As for game creation ideas, I think of it this way:  How long have games 
for the blind been produced and by how many companies?  Compare this with 
the number of companies that have been producing games for the sighted and 
the period of time they have been doing so.  Fresh ideas are bound to be 
hard to come by.  It's not because of a lack of creativity.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts.
- Original Message - 
From: Tristan B theblinddj...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi,
Not to take you down, but...

Sadly, it seems to me like the sighted come up with every idea that we 
have before it ever even seemed like an idea. They have millions and 
still counting of video games released in one country. Thousands for 
single consoles, sometimes it seems like whatever ideas I think up are 
copyrighted or used somewhere else.


That's just me. I may not have the spark of creativity that others may 
have, or I may be right. Just my oppinion.


Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net

To: gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


i agree with you since i lost my sight that is all i can play is audio 
games they do remind me of old video games that i enjoy playing but it 
would be cool to play never before ideals that none of the sighted game 
maker ever came up with i do wish someone would make a newer version of 
distnation mars and run for presdinent


--
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www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,
When it comes to choosing game music a developer must always keep his 
target audience in mind. Not everyone likes the so-called up to date 
music you speak of. I know several people who absolutely hate hip-hop 
and I know a few people who think it is the best music on earth. I 
personally dislike hip-hop, I am an 80's rock fan myself, so I would not 
be inclined to include that sort of music in my games.
One way to resolve this problem is for a developer to use music that is 
acceptable to just about everyone such as by using cinematic music 
tracks. I've got plenty of mainstream games here that use cinematic 
music tracks like Star Wars, Tomb Raider, Indiana Jones, Star Trek Elite 
Force I and Elite Force II, etc. The music is something that is there 
and doesn't disrupt your concentration while playing.
Now, could you imagine playing something like Star Trek Elite Force and 
instead of the Star Trek cinematic music in the background you have some 
hip-hop music in the background instead. Not only would it sound 
completely out of place for that kind of game, but I would find it 
totally distracting. For me it would kill the mood, and be come a major 
disruption.
Now, let's assume the game was about gang warfair in L.A. Then, I could 
see some hip-hop music in the game. Something like natural Born Killer 
would fit right in with the games kill or be killed game play. However, 
that style of game is completely different from Star Trek.

HTH


CSF inc. wrote:
Your the man, and can't wait for your football game, dude, call me 
personally.. As for a fighting game. I can only wish, and allot of 
other blind gamers I know is starving for it.. And what about up to 
dat music? Rock, Hip - Hop, club, dance.. Come on it's almost 2010.. 
Later



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Or you could do what Che did for Rail Racer and give players the option of 
using their own music via WinAmp. I never did that myself because the music 
got too distracting and I couldn't hear ART. Actually if Angel and my plans 
work out we'll probably do that for a lot of our games, particularly if we 
develop any sports type titles. And that's not entirely out of the question 
despite my not being a sports fan. If I do this I want to appeal to as many 
people as I possibly can. Giving players the option and a means to use their 
own music might be one way to do that. It also means you're less likely to 
get sued for selling copyrighted material, which you very well could if you 
bundled copyrighted music with your game.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi,
When it comes to choosing game music a developer must always keep his 
target audience in mind. Not everyone likes the so-called up to date 
music you speak of. I know several people who absolutely hate hip-hop and 
I know a few people who think it is the best music on earth. I personally 
dislike hip-hop, I am an 80's rock fan myself, so I would not be inclined 
to include that sort of music in my games.
One way to resolve this problem is for a developer to use music that is 
acceptable to just about everyone such as by using cinematic music tracks. 
I've got plenty of mainstream games here that use cinematic music tracks 
like Star Wars, Tomb Raider, Indiana Jones, Star Trek Elite Force I and 
Elite Force II, etc. The music is something that is there and doesn't 
disrupt your concentration while playing.
Now, could you imagine playing something like Star Trek Elite Force and 
instead of the Star Trek cinematic music in the background you have some 
hip-hop music in the background instead. Not only would it sound 
completely out of place for that kind of game, but I would find it totally 
distracting. For me it would kill the mood, and be come a major 
disruption.
Now, let's assume the game was about gang warfair in L.A. Then, I could 
see some hip-hop music in the game. Something like natural Born Killer 
would fit right in with the games kill or be killed game play. However, 
that style of game is completely different from Star Trek.

HTH


CSF inc. wrote:
Your the man, and can't wait for your football game, dude, call me 
personally.. As for a fighting game. I can only wish, and allot of other 
blind gamers I know is starving for it.. And what about up to dat music? 
Rock, Hip - Hop, club, dance.. Come on it's almost 2010.. Later



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,
Unfortunately, that is all too true. Working with other game developers 
can be and is problematic for a lot of reasons.
For example, a couple of years back a lot of people were disappointed 
when Justin announced he was not going to release Castle Quest. There 
was a problem with the leade developer, and so on. I e-mailed him asking 
if I could help in any way. As it turned out we could not join up to 
work on the project for a variety of reasons.
One, there was the issue of time. Justin was putting in several hours at 
work so didn't have much time personally to commit to the project. I had 
just more or less taken over Alchemy Game Studeo's projects so had a 
fairly full plate already. So it was clear from the outset both of us 
didn't really have the time for it.
Second, neither of us had the original source code. Another developer 
was creating the game for BSC, and when he quit he tchose to take the 
source code with him.  As a result we had nothing to start with. We 
would have started from scratch which neither of us were inclined to do 
with our personal work schedules.
Third, it was Justin's project so he would be the lead developer calling 
the shots on the project. Personally I like being in charge of the 
coding and admit I have a big ego when it comes to programming. I am 
proud of what I do, and freely admit it. However, I would have had to 
take a back seat on this project, and given my ego i don't think I would 
have been completely happy in the arrangement after all.
Finally, there was the issue that programming wise we were not 
completely compatible. Justin's strengths lie in Visual Basic and Visual 
Basic .NET where mine tend to be in languages like C++, C#, and Java. 
I'm certain we could have worked this outsince I have some experience 
programming in Visual Basic languages, but I don't use the language much 
for my own projects. As a result if I would have had to work on the 
project in Visual Basic .NET I could probably have done it, but it 
wouldn't be my best programming wise.  I'd likely have to look up this 
or that in the MSDN library to remind myself of how to do this or that 
in VB.
Anyway, as it turned out we decided not to go there. Neither of us had 
the time to work on the project, and we had our differences of opinion 
on how to proceed with programming the game. It was a nice thought, but 
wasn't practical for either of us.


Che wrote:
regarding the idea of developers teaming up, it is a great idea in 
theory, but a diffficult one to put into practice in reality.
 every developer i have talked to without exception, myself included 
have large egos and set ways of doing things, this would be a serious 
problem i think.

secondly, deciding how to whack up the proceeds would be a huge issue.
 lastly, all involved would have to agree on a language to use for 
programming, which may or may not be a big problem depending on folks 
involved.
anyhow, if some developers can get something done as a group, i'm all 
for it. but i know as for myself, i work better alone, where the 
vision is one, all problems as well as successes are also mine alone 
to deal with, and if something is screwed up, i have nobody to blame 
but myself.
 i think this could work out if everyone agreed on the outline of the 
project, and designed things modularly so each programmer would have 
their own little corner to work on, which could be intergrated into 
the whole later on. once again, easier said than done.

later
che



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,
And that is exactly the problem game developers face. What would be the 
point in creating an infurior clone of MK or Street Fighter when the 
ones out there are already playable. Maybe not 100% accessible, but 
playable. All I could do is come up with an infurior clone that might 
get some interest, but I am not sure I can create something absolutely 
on par with the real MK or Street Fighter games. Maybe if I got hold of 
the sounds, music, etc I could come close, but that's a lot of work for 
a clone when the original is playable.


Scott Chesworth wrote:

I too am of the pursuation that would quite like to have a fighting
game rock my socks off, mainly because I'm too broke to own a console
at the moment.
Seems to me though having seen some of the PS3 and even the later PS2
titles that it would be a massive project to get it up to current
console standard.  There are so many games in this genre that are
playable to the point of being worth buying on consoles that anything
less would seem kinda pointless to me, unless it was ridiculously
adddictive in some non-standard way.
I think the developer that takes on this project is gonna have a lot
on their plate.  Without some real innovation or a touch of something
nobody is expecting, we're likely to end up with something not
dissimilar to Mortal Kombat 3 with talking menues at best.  I dunno if
I'd buy that, I already own MK3.
Not meaning to put a downer on a project that hasn't even started yet,
just musing really.

Something else I'd be very very interested in would be some
innovations to one of the open source musical game projects like frets
on fire to make it more accessible.  Sure rockband is playable, but
proper speech feedback with online play and such would be just the
ticket for me.  Can't imagine buying a whole console for it, but I can
definitely imagine buying the music controllers to hook up to the pc.

Scott
  



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Hey Che, I sent you a song to hear but your server rejected my message 
stating the size was to much; the file is 4.7 mb; would you like me to set 
up a link from send space?
- Original Message - 
From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Hi ya Mister CSF,
 where can i go to listen to a sample of your stuff? might be interested 
in using you down the line for my projects if its good enough.

 feel free to write me off list.
later
che
c...@blindadrenaline.com

- Original Message - 
From: CSF inc. elohee...@verizon.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

I'm a artist with connections to full audio studio's; Pro Tools, Reasons, 
SSL complete 48 track; 3XD audio like you never herd.. Ya herd.. Smile
- Original Message - 
From: Ken kenwdow...@neo.rr.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Well, what we need is our own game team.  We need two or three 
developers working together to program it, we need at least four 
actors/actresses, we need sound engineers and effects guys.  I think a 
team of six or so could really pull something incredible off, especially 
if they didn't get impatient about getting a product out fast.  I think 
that's the only way a truly new innovative game is going to come 
out--because one person can only do so much.  I suppose that Che could 
have spent ten years on Rail Racer and really done a lot more with 
it--but by then everything would change and he'd have to start from 
scratch.
So how bout some team spirit and a little unity, eh?  I'm great with 
sound effects, acting and narrating,   and music.  I'm not a very good 
programmer, and I stop at VB6 for now--maybe I'll learn more later.

Do you live near Sandusky Ohio, or are you planning a trip to Cedar 
Point?
Receive a massage at very competitive rates--$40 per hour for a 
revitalizing therapeutic massage,

$65 per house call--any time, anywhere (within reason.)
Call 419-577-7973
I'll ease your pain and discomfort, loosen and mobilize your stiff 
joints, relax your achy muscles, and help you let go of stress, 
depression, and nervous anxiety...

Ken Downey, LMT

President of Blind Comfort!
The Caring Without the Staring
and
DreamtechInteractive
- Original Message - 
From: CSF inc. elohee...@verizon.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Don't get me wrong, I respect the developers of all audio games because 
each game is a new exploration in audio gaming itself; I have been 
playing games both audio and graphical for many years and I'm a true 
gamer; I think most of the list are true gamers and are hungry for 
more; we as a culture of audio game players have come a long way, I 
would like us to keep moving up levels in creation, and not be 
stagnated in certain type of games; just as we have come a long way 
from my first game battle ship, to my favorite Tank Commander, we 
still have much more game exploration to conquer, and I know with new 
technology and innovation we will become more extravagant in our 
options of game playing.. Thanks
- Original Message - 
From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Sure, I'd love a huge library of varied titles to choose from as much
as the next bored blind guy with a penchant for gaming, but to be
blunt, saying I want this, we need that doesn't actually do much.
For your I want this, we need that to become a reality, the fact is
that somebody has got to sit down and put in the hours of story
creation, game design, and hard graft coding to make the product.  The
reason that people use the GMA engine seems to be that it's stable and
will save them hundreds of hours of building their own from scratch.
The reason that we're lacking variation is that a developer with a
great imagination, top writing skills, a knack for inivative
usability, bags of skill at writing code, and tons of time to pour
into all those things and probably some others I've missed hasn't
materialised yet.  The creation of mainstream titles has that work
load spread across huge teams of people in the cases of the games you
mentioned, most of the time we're talking about whole teams for each
specific area.  Every one of those people gets paid full time to do
it, has an actual budget to work with, and has probably fought pretty
hard to be doing the job they're doing.  Maybe you're actually the
developer we need having read all that?  I know I'm not.

I skated over a few points about graphics etc because they were...
well

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread Michael Feir

 be to people 
who play them. I also am passionate about creating a game which delivers a 
deeper well of thoughtful fun and does so in a way which is infinitely 
replayable. Whether that's enough to see me through to completion of the 
project is anyone's guess. My creative engine has been sputtering and 
stalling lately.




Michael Feir
Author of Personal Power:
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
www.blind-planet.com/content/personal-power

A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://www.blind-planet.com/content/life-word-and-sound

Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine
1996-2004
Check out my blog at:
www.michaelfeir.blogspot.com


- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi Che,
I know the feeling. I'm not sure why but simple and easy games appears to 
be what sells in the accessible games market. As many people know one of 
my plans will be to create a full blown 3d game engine, as in actual 3d 
levels with 3d objects, 3d movement, as well as 3d audio support. No 
sooner did i mention my plans I got various comments to the effect that 
anything I made using it would be too hard even though they never seen 
the final product yet.
One of the things that bothered me was some people immediately tried to 
tell me that because they have problems with Audioquake and Technoshock 
they absolutely know that they couldn't play any of my games. They didn't 
seam to consider the fact that with Audioquake accessibility is poorly 
implemented, and because it is  a modified version of Quake it wasn't 
designed from the ground up for a blind player. Accessibility is an add 
on, and there could be a lot more done to it to provide accessibility. 
Technoshock also has some accessibility issues, that make it harder than 
say Shades of Doom to play, and i feel accessibility could b done better 
in that game. I've seen what works and what doesn't and I'd use that 
experience plus my own blindness to work out any and all accessibility 
problems that might crop up.
Anyway, the bottom line is now and then we see a thread like this where 
someone suggests coming up with something new, something different, 
something more mainstream, and when a developer tries to do that, come up 
with something truly amazing like Rail Racer, the complaints thatit is too 
hard come rolling in. As a developer we really can't win. No matter if we 
do something easy or something new and slightly challenging someone is 
going to complain.



Che wrote:

I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too 
much practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks 
all the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to 
sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would 
have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot, 
as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough 
of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done, 
but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just 
a simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they 
do, and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists 
lately from what i've seen.

We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands 
of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love 
doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of 
my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they 
are the best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen 
anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this 
stuff.
i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, 
hosted by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the 
damage

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Well thankyou. Thankyouverymuch. Yeah, I hope this works out. Angel's 
offered to try to teach me some of what she knows and we can go from there. 
Like I may have said she's in college and her major is computer programming. 
She's actually hoping to open her own computer repair shop someday, but if 
audio game development worked out there could be that little bit of extra 
income on top of our regular one, even if it wasn't all that much. And if we 
did figure out how to get word out to more blind people, folks who were 
interested in gaming but either didn't know about or couldn't be captivated 
by our current market, it might make it more worthwhile. Of course that 
would be the hard part right there.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Tristan B theblinddj...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hello,
I sure hope it does; it sounds like you and her would make a great game 
dev team. *grins*. And I agree holeheartedly with your message..


Regards,
Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


You're definitely right about that Tristan. Many of us complain about how 
most games are too easy, which I can definitely agree with, but then when 
something new comes out or is even mentioned we start whining and 
snivelling about how it'd be too hard. Take Technoshock for instance. 
Granted I spent months on Technoshock before I got really frustrated with 
it, but I saw complaints on the audiogames.net forum within days. Some 
were quite rude as I recall.
 But if this business between myself and my girlfriend Angel works out 
hopefully the AG market will start to see some games we can really be 
proud of. My girlfriend is a fairly apt programmer I found out and when I 
mentioned the idea of computer games for the blind she got really excited 
and wanted us to work together on something. She might even join this 
list. It's one of the places I referred her to for information.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Tristan B theblinddj...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Its pretty sad, if I must say so myself, because gamers are basicly just 
shooting themselves in  the foot.


They ask for enw games, then they complain.

Not pointing fingers here, but its what I've noticed.
Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi Che,
I know the feeling. I'm not sure why but simple and easy games appears 
to be what sells in the accessible games market. As many people know 
one of my plans will be to create a full blown 3d game engine, as in 
actual 3d levels with 3d objects, 3d movement, as well as 3d audio 
support. No sooner did i mention my plans I got various comments to the 
effect that anything I made using it would be too hard even though 
they never seen the final product yet.
One of the things that bothered me was some people immediately tried to 
tell me that because they have problems with Audioquake and Technoshock 
they absolutely know that they couldn't play any of my games. They 
didn't seam to consider the fact that with Audioquake accessibility is 
poorly implemented, and because it is  a modified version of Quake it 
wasn't designed from the ground up for a blind player. Accessibility is 
an add on, and there could be a lot more done to it to provide 
accessibility. Technoshock also has some accessibility issues, that 
make it harder than say Shades of Doom to play, and i feel 
accessibility could b done better in that game. I've seen what works 
and what doesn't and I'd use that experience plus my own blindness to 
work out any and all accessibility problems that might crop up.
Anyway, the bottom line is now and then we see a thread like this where 
someone suggests coming up with something new, something different, 
something more mainstream, and when a developer tries to do that, come 
up with something truly amazing like Rail Racer, the complaints thatit 
is too hard come rolling in. As a developer we really can't win. No 
matter if we do something easy or something new and slightly 
challenging someone is going to complain.



Che wrote:

I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread Munawar Bijani

Agreed. I have gotten the same complaints about Three-D Velocity--although 
it seems as if most people here are very tempted to try new things. So yes, 
you get the occasional this is too hard, add feature X to make it easier 
message, but for the most part you'll see a positive outlook; if for nothing 
else, at least because you bring new ideas to the AG market. I think we're 
all sick of the guess the numbers and side-side shooting games like Dark 
Destroyer. Just remember, if they don't like it, they don't have to buy it, 
so don't let it put your hopes down if a couple people do start complaining. 
Keep your target audience in mind, and don't try to cater to everyone 
because it won't work. Several games (including Treasure Hunt) failed 
because of this.

Munawar A. Bijani
Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only 
useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha

mailto:munaw...@gmail.com
http://www.bpcprograms.com
- Original Message - 
From: Tristan B theblinddj...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hello,
I sure hope it does; it sounds like you and her would make a great game 
dev team. *grins*. And I agree holeheartedly with your message..


Regards,
Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


You're definitely right about that Tristan. Many of us complain about how 
most games are too easy, which I can definitely agree with, but then when 
something new comes out or is even mentioned we start whining and 
snivelling about how it'd be too hard. Take Technoshock for instance. 
Granted I spent months on Technoshock before I got really frustrated with 
it, but I saw complaints on the audiogames.net forum within days. Some 
were quite rude as I recall.
 But if this business between myself and my girlfriend Angel works out 
hopefully the AG market will start to see some games we can really be 
proud of. My girlfriend is a fairly apt programmer I found out and when I 
mentioned the idea of computer games for the blind she got really excited 
and wanted us to work together on something. She might even join this 
list. It's one of the places I referred her to for information.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Tristan B theblinddj...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Its pretty sad, if I must say so myself, because gamers are basicly just 
shooting themselves in  the foot.


They ask for enw games, then they complain.

Not pointing fingers here, but its what I've noticed.
Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi Che,
I know the feeling. I'm not sure why but simple and easy games appears 
to be what sells in the accessible games market. As many people know 
one of my plans will be to create a full blown 3d game engine, as in 
actual 3d levels with 3d objects, 3d movement, as well as 3d audio 
support. No sooner did i mention my plans I got various comments to the 
effect that anything I made using it would be too hard even though 
they never seen the final product yet.
One of the things that bothered me was some people immediately tried to 
tell me that because they have problems with Audioquake and Technoshock 
they absolutely know that they couldn't play any of my games. They 
didn't seam to consider the fact that with Audioquake accessibility is 
poorly implemented, and because it is  a modified version of Quake it 
wasn't designed from the ground up for a blind player. Accessibility is 
an add on, and there could be a lot more done to it to provide 
accessibility. Technoshock also has some accessibility issues, that 
make it harder than say Shades of Doom to play, and i feel 
accessibility could b done better in that game. I've seen what works 
and what doesn't and I'd use that experience plus my own blindness to 
work out any and all accessibility problems that might crop up.
Anyway, the bottom line is now and then we see a thread like this where 
someone suggests coming up with something new, something different, 
something more mainstream, and when a developer tries to do that, come 
up with something truly amazing like Rail Racer, the complaints thatit 
is too hard come rolling in. As a developer we really can't win. No 
matter if we do

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

same here.
online play sounds nice but I must admit I rarely have the time or care to go 
online.
Although I enjoyed the comcept, after testing I didn't bother.
the other thing is my connection is slow on upload so 12kb.
so if I ever needed to download anything ginormous or anything forget it.
dropouts, etc.
I dabble here and there.
At 06:28 a.m. 15/08/2009, you wrote:
Personally I could care less about online play. I don't know, I've just never 
had much interest in it. But I imagine my games will probably include the 
option at some point even if not right away.
You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - From: James Howard coldshadow...@gmail.com
To: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


I'll admit, I'm not into audio games that much, because of the simple
fact, they're like some say, not really inovative.  I don't know about
rail racer, cause I haven't ried it yet, but I'm planning on doing so.
If I do play any audio games, I only stick to the ones that go online,
thats the biggest threal I get out of them right now.
I go with alot of people said, I would love to see more complex stuff,
real rpgs, just to name a certain type I like.  but if I game was more
complex, had more of a plot, and alot more involved, I'd be more into
playing it.
I enjoy the stuff Che has done with the online card stuff, I'm sort of
hooked on that.

On 8/14/09, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
I'll bet that technical support for a game that was created by a bunch of
different developers would be a mess, too.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts.
- Original Message -
From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


regarding the idea of developers teaming up, it is a great idea in theory,

but a diffficult one to put into practice in reality.
 every developer i have talked to without exception, myself included have
large egos and set ways of doing things, this would be a serious problem i

think.
secondly, deciding how to whack up the proceeds would be a huge issue.
 lastly, all involved would have to agree on a language to use for
programming, which may or may not be a big problem depending on folks
involved.
anyhow, if some developers can get something done as a group, i'm all for
it. but i know as for myself, i work better alone, where the vision is
one, all problems as well as successes are also mine alone to deal with,
and if something is screwed up, i have nobody to blame but myself.
 i think this could work out if everyone agreed on the outline of the
project, and designed things modularly so each programmer would have their

own little corner to work on, which could be intergrated into the whole
later on. once again, easier said than done.
later
che

- Original Message -
From: william lomas lomaswill...@googlemail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


it will be interesting though to be fair, to see what draconis have up
their sleives. i thought 2009 was the year for draconis, but nothing as
of yet?

On 14 Aug 2009, at 07:29, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi,
Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have  are a

bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers,  but
there really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to  speak
of besides Rail Racer.
For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories.
Either they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type
theme. Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to what

was available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main  reason I
began writing accesible games myself.
As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact it
is a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible developer
can use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands  it could be
used to create some killer accessible games. We have  already seen what
it can do with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander,  and I think with some

updates it should be able to create games more  or less on par with Star

Trek Elite Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight,   etc. In some respects it
isn't the fault of the tool here, but  perhaps it is the developer's
lack of imagination, creativity, or  experience with full blown FPS
games here.
As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project on

hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work  with
Lucas Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when  Alchemy
closed up I took over their games and projects which I want  to complete

before returning to my own original projects.

CSF inc. wrote

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,
Yes, that is definitely one of the major problems I face as a game 
developer. Even something as simple as a title for a game is already 
used, copyrighted to the hilt,  and there isn't much I can do about it.
For example, I've been thinking of creating a large roll playing game. 
Well, I wrote down a list of possible titles for the game. I had about 
10 possibles written down in a text file. I then took that list, went 
online, and checked if there were games using those titles. Sure enough 
every single title I thought I had come up with was already used by 
somebody else, and was copyrighted by someone else. It's pretty 
depressing to know you spend x amount of time thinking up what might be 
cool titles for a game only to discover someone else has beat you to the 
punch so to speak.
When it comes to new and innovative game stories I can't think of 
anything that hasn't already been done before. You have your vampire 
games, zomby fighting games, loads of military games, your civilization 
style games, and so on. You name it someone has probably done it.


Tristan B wrote:

Hi,
Not to take you down, but...

Sadly, it seems to me like the sighted come up with every idea that we 
have before it ever even seemed like an idea. They have millions and 
still counting of video games released in one country. Thousands for 
single consoles, sometimes it seems like whatever ideas I think up are 
copyrighted or used somewhere else.


That's just me. I may not have the spark of creativity that others may 
have, or I may be right. Just my oppinion.


Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,
True. There really hasn't been any thing new that has made a big splash 
of late. At least nothing I would be really interested in. Last fall 
Edos released Tomb raider 8, but Underworld was more of a disappointment 
than anything else. The Tomb Raider games have been really losing sales 
over the passed few releases, and is nothing like what it was in the 
late 1990's. The graphics and sound effects are superior, but the games 
have lost something that made the first few games special. Well, I've 
heard about some technical issues with Tomb Raider Underworld and camera 
angles which probably didn't help the game any.




shaun everiss wrote:

well to tell you the truth there are not so many big shots now.
in fact nothing has made the headlines of late.
no big company has released anything lately that has hit the lines either my 
friend that is sighted says he does pick the odd bit up but its not as bussy as 
it was like a year or 2 back.
  



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi Bryan,
Well, my point was that certain games require a certain type of music, a 
theme to set the mood, and is all part of the art of game design. 
Sticking heavy metal, hip-hop, or anything else in a game were it 
doesn't belong will kill the game. You can't write a purely fantacy game 
and have hard rock like AC-DC or hip-hop music like Ice Cube playing in 
the background. It just sounds out of place as well as very annoying to 
some people.
As for copyrights goes that is very true. Although, I legally license my 
music for my games so that at least isn't a problem. Though, it cost me 
quite a bit of cash to do it.


Bryan Peterson wrote:
Or you could do what Che did for Rail Racer and give players the 
option of using their own music via WinAmp. I never did that myself 
because the music got too distracting and I couldn't hear ART. 
Actually if Angel and my plans work out we'll probably do that for a 
lot of our games, particularly if we develop any sports type titles. 
And that's not entirely out of the question despite my not being a 
sports fan. If I do this I want to appeal to as many people as I 
possibly can. Giving players the option and a means to use their own 
music might be one way to do that. It also means you're less likely to 
get sued for selling copyrighted material, which you very well could 
if you bundled copyrighted music with your game.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi Bryan,
Yes, there is a gray area where copyrights are concerned. For example, a 
game company like Edos can copyright a game story called Tomb Raider, 
with a female character named Lara Croft, and so on. However, that 
doesn't exclude someone coming up with a similar type of game with 
different characters and slightly different plot. I've done it in my 
Tomb Hunter series, it is similar to Tomb Raider, but I am well with in 
the gray area that it is all legal. As long as I don't go around calling 
my game Tomb Raider, call my main character Lara Croft, and so on I'm safe.
Sarah and the Castle of Wichcraft is another one of those games that 
falls in a gray area. It isn't specifically a Harry Potter game, but it 
does use a few aspects of the Harry Potter books/movies. If necessary 
all Phil would have to do is change the names of the ghosts, spells, 
castle, and he'd be 100% in the clear.


Bryan Peterson wrote:
Ideas themselves, such as general storylines, can't be copyrighted. 
It's when you start using the names of characters and places that you 
run the risk of legal trouble. I imagine the main reason people like 
Phil haven't run into trouble about Sarah and the Castle of Witchcraft 
and Wizardry, which does use names and locations from copyrighted 
books, is that we're such a small community. But at the same time 
that's no guaranteer of safety as THomas found out.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.


- Original Message - From: Charles Rivard 
woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


As for game creation ideas, I think of it this way:  How long have 
games for the blind been produced and by how many companies?  Compare 
this with the number of companies that have been producing games for 
the sighted and the period of time they have been doing so.  Fresh 
ideas are bound to be hard to come by.  It's not because of a lack of 
creativity.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts.
- Original Message - From: Tristan B theblinddj...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi,
Not to take you down, but...

Sadly, it seems to me like the sighted come up with every idea that 
we have before it ever even seemed like an idea. They have millions 
and still counting of video games released in one country. Thousands 
for single consoles, sometimes it seems like whatever ideas I think 
up are copyrighted or used somewhere else.


That's just me. I may not have the spark of creativity that others 
may have, or I may be right. Just my oppinion.


Tristan B

TrekGames.net

Cosmos -
TrekGames.net, port 1234.

- Original Message - From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net
To: gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


i agree with you since i lost my sight that is all i can play is 
audio games they do remind me of old video games that i enjoy 
playing but it would be cool to play never before ideals that none 
of the sighted game maker ever came up with i do wish someone would 
make a newer version of distnation mars and run for presdinent


--
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www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi Charles,
Actually, I don't think coming up with fresh ideas is the problem, but 
the trouble is coming up with a fresh idea that sells. Not everyone can 
come up with a story line that is in the league of Star Trek, Harry 
Potter, Star Wars, Final Fantacy, etc. I'm pretty sure when George Lucas 
came up with Star Wars and J.K. Rolling came up with Harry Potter they 
had no idea that their ideas would sell like crazy. Just a person with 
the right idea at the right time.
Anyway, the goal of a successful game developer is to create that 
perfect game. One that everyone is interested in trying, bying, and 
playing. A remarkably good story line, that hooks the customers 
imagination, is a big part in adding interest in a game. At least it has 
been a selling point for me.


Charles Rivard wrote:
As for game creation ideas, I think of it this way:  How long have 
games for the blind been produced and by how many companies?  Compare 
this with the number of companies that have been producing games for 
the sighted and the period of time they have been doing so.  Fresh 
ideas are bound to be hard to come by.  It's not because of a lack of 
creativity.



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread Charles Rivard

To give another example, how about some Iron Butterfly while playing a game 
of Sudoku?  It just doesn't fit.  On the other hand, the music and 
background ambiance in your currently being played demo certainly do fit the 
game, creating the desired mood.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi Bryan,
Well, my point was that certain games require a certain type of music, a 
theme to set the mood, and is all part of the art of game design. Sticking 
heavy metal, hip-hop, or anything else in a game were it doesn't belong 
will kill the game. You can't write a purely fantacy game and have hard 
rock like AC-DC or hip-hop music like Ice Cube playing in the background. 
It just sounds out of place as well as very annoying to some people.
As for copyrights goes that is very true. Although, I legally license my 
music for my games so that at least isn't a problem. Though, it cost me 
quite a bit of cash to do it.


Bryan Peterson wrote:
Or you could do what Che did for Rail Racer and give players the option 
of using their own music via WinAmp. I never did that myself because the 
music got too distracting and I couldn't hear ART. Actually if Angel and 
my plans work out we'll probably do that for a lot of our games, 
particularly if we develop any sports type titles. And that's not 
entirely out of the question despite my not being a sports fan. If I do 
this I want to appeal to as many people as I possibly can. Giving players 
the option and a means to use their own music might be one way to do 
that. It also means you're less likely to get sued for selling 
copyrighted material, which you very well could if you bundled 
copyrighted music with your game.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread Kellie and my lovable Lady J.


Tom,
I can tell you thta I support you creating a fully 3d sound and all that 
engine. I like a challenge and the more complex the game, the more it holds 
my attention.
There are always those who dislike change or something foreign. There are 
many who critasize the IPhone for being a touch screen and too difficult to 
use. I have one, and while it isn't a phone that everyone would want, I use 
it with ease.
But, I can't wait til you create an engine like that and games.  I wish  I 
understood programming, if I did I would aid any way I could.

Kellie and my lovable Lady J.
Resident Adviser, Guide Dogs for the Blind Oregon campus
www.guidedogs.com
- Original Message - 
From: CSF inc. elohee...@verizon.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 5:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


I agree, and I loved the trailer for Star Wars Jedi Attack.. Hey, you guys 
do a great job, bottom line.. I know developers are true gamers at the very 
core and that is what pushes you to make games in general, I just would 
like to see that 13 year old gamer come back out in the creation of games; 
Like when I played Coleko Vision for the first time.. Smile
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Hi,
Well said. I too also feel as though the accessible games we have are a 
bit disappointing. No disrespect to my fellow game developers, but there 
really isn't anything that is really new or innovative to speak of 
besides Rail Racer.
For the most part accessible games tend to fall into two catagories. 
Either they are simple board and card games, or an arcade game type 
theme. Personally, I find the options rather limitting compared to what 
was available to me before I lost my sight, and is the main reason I 
began writing accesible games myself.
As for the GMA engine I have to disagree with you. Besides the fact it is 
a bit old it still is one of the best tools an accessible developer can 
use. It is an FPS game engine, and in the right hands it could be used to 
create some killer accessible games. We have already seen what it can do 
with Shades of Doom and Tank Commander, and I think with some updates it 
should be able to create games more or less on par with Star Trek Elite 
Force, Star Wars Jedi Knight,  etc. In some respects it isn't the fault 
of the tool here, but perhaps it is the developer's lack of imagination, 
creativity, or experience with full blown FPS games here.
As for the Star Wars game I was working on I had to put that project on 
hold for a couple of reasons. First, I am still trying to work with Lucas 
Film on obtaining a Star Wars license. Second, when Alchemy closed up I 
took over their games and projects which I want to complete before 
returning to my own original projects.


CSF inc. wrote:
With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's 
disappointing; There are interesting games we play but very few; other 
games are not accessible to certain computers and operating systems; 
others are so simple and plain, for some of us who has played regular 
games, it's disheartening; Effort should be made into making games more 
involved, more ideas ie stop making games off of GMA's frame work, 
There is only 1 Shades, 1 Tank Commander..  lastly, we need games we can 
play along with our sighted family like Soul Caliber. We have no 
fighting games, no sports games we can play without some A.I. making it 
not real; even though the 2nd best player in the world in Mortal Combat 
is Blind!! We should of taken that  initiative


 and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal.. Are 
blind people not sports fans? would we like to box? run the football? 
aim the pitch in a baseball game? even fly a F-16 in combat.. Sim's are 
O.K. I guess, but it takes the control and fun out of the game.. Some 
will complain about this post, some will agree; the point is We Need 
More Variety, And Not The Same Games With Different Titles.. What 
happened to Star Wars Jedi attack? OOh Yeah Baby..

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Hi,
That's my problem as well. I like online game play, but I really don't 
have time to devote to it.I've played some games like SoundRTS and Rail 
Racer online, but you really have to do it when there are enough people 
around to play.That's really the problem with network game play. You 
have to do it when everyones schedules match, or else you don't have a 
game. For me, that's not very convenient, as I generally pick up and 
play a game when it suits me. If it is at midnight then is when I expect 
to play. Obviously, if there is no one online at midnight when I am 
ready to play online then online play wouldn't be too fun. That's why 
single player games tend to suit me. I can play them at any time anywhere.



shaun everiss wrote:

same here.
online play sounds nice but I must admit I rarely have the time or care to go 
online.
Although I enjoyed the comcept, after testing I didn't bother.
the other thing is my connection is slow on upload so 12kb.
so if I ever needed to download anything ginormous or anything forget it.
dropouts, etc.
I dabble here and there.
At 06:28 a.m. 15/08/2009, you wrote:
  

Personally I could care less about online play. I don't know, I've just never 
had much interest in it. But I imagine my games will probably include the 
option at some point even if not right away.




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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-14 Thread william lomas

same for us in the blind community no games have came out this year  
and we are eight months into the year already


On 15 Aug 2009, at 04:58, Thomas Ward wrote:


Hi,
True. There really hasn't been any thing new that has made a big  
splash of late. At least nothing I would be really interested in.  
Last fall Edos released Tomb raider 8, but Underworld was more of a  
disappointment than anything else. The Tomb Raider games have been  
really losing sales over the passed few releases, and is nothing  
like what it was in the late 1990's. The graphics and sound effects  
are superior, but the games have lost something that made the first  
few games special. Well, I've heard about some technical issues with  
Tomb Raider Underworld and camera angles which probably didn't help  
the game any.




shaun everiss wrote:

well to tell you the truth there are not so many big shots now.
in fact nothing has made the headlines of late.
no big company has released anything lately that has hit the lines  
either my friend that is sighted says he does pick the odd bit up  
but its not as bussy as it was like a year or 2 back.





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[Audyssey] The real Game Circle

With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's disappointing; There 
are interesting games we play but very few; other games are not accessible to 
certain computers and operating systems; others are so simple and plain, for 
some of us who has played regular games, it's disheartening; Effort should be 
made into making games more involved, more ideas ie stop making games off of 
GMA's frame work, There is only 1 Shades, 1 Tank Commander..  lastly, we need 
games we can play along with our sighted family like Soul Caliber. We have no 
fighting games, no sports games we can play without some A.I. making it not 
real; even though the 2nd best player in the world in Mortal Combat is Blind!! 
We should of taken that  
initiative

 and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal.. Are blind 
people not sports fans? would we like to box? run the football? aim the pitch 
in a baseball game? even fly a F-16 in combat.. Sim's are O.K. I guess, but it 
takes the control and fun out of the game.. Some will complain about this post, 
some will agree; the point is We Need More Variety, And Not The Same Games With 
Different Titles.. What happened to Star Wars Jedi attack? OOh Yeah Baby..
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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-13 Thread Scott Chesworth

Sure, I'd love a huge library of varied titles to choose from as much
as the next bored blind guy with a penchant for gaming, but to be
blunt, saying I want this, we need that doesn't actually do much.
For your I want this, we need that to become a reality, the fact is
that somebody has got to sit down and put in the hours of story
creation, game design, and hard graft coding to make the product.  The
reason that people use the GMA engine seems to be that it's stable and
will save them hundreds of hours of building their own from scratch.
The reason that we're lacking variation is that a developer with a
great imagination, top writing skills, a knack for inivative
usability, bags of skill at writing code, and tons of time to pour
into all those things and probably some others I've missed hasn't
materialised yet.  The creation of mainstream titles has that work
load spread across huge teams of people in the cases of the games you
mentioned, most of the time we're talking about whole teams for each
specific area.  Every one of those people gets paid full time to do
it, has an actual budget to work with, and has probably fought pretty
hard to be doing the job they're doing.  Maybe you're actually the
developer we need having read all that?  I know I'm not.

I skated over a few points about graphics etc because they were...
well... a bit ridiculous.
Sorry it's slightly ranty, I've just had a surprising hour of
discovering how much playability there is left in the games I own now
I've switched away from the keyboard and I don't like seeing the good
developers we actually do have being put down much.

Scott

On 8/14/09, CSF inc. elohee...@verizon.net wrote:
 With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's disappointing;
 There are interesting games we play but very few; other games are not
 accessible to certain computers and operating systems; others are so simple
 and plain, for some of us who has played regular games, it's
 disheartening; Effort should be made into making games more involved, more
 ideas ie stop making games off of GMA's frame work, There is only 1
 Shades, 1 Tank Commander..  lastly, we need games we can play along with our
 sighted family like Soul Caliber. We have no fighting games, no sports
 games we can play without some A.I. making it not real; even though the 2nd
 best player in the world in Mortal Combat is Blind!! We should of taken that

 initiative

  and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal.. Are
 blind people not sports fans? would we like to box? run the football? aim
 the pitch in a baseball game? even fly a F-16 in combat.. Sim's are O.K. I
 guess, but it takes the control and fun out of the game.. Some will complain
 about this post, some will agree; the point is We Need More Variety, And Not
 The Same Games With Different Titles.. What happened to Star Wars Jedi
 attack? OOh Yeah Baby..
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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-13 Thread Zachary Kline

Hi,
I for one will wholeheartedly agree with this.  My personal preference
runs more for grand strategy, along the lines of Master of Orion,
Civilization, etc.  I can currently play both these games somewhat
awkwardly via sighted proxy.  I wish I didn't have to do it that way.
What we need is something like the currently accessible Anacreon
Reconstruction with better AI and diplomacy options.
Just my two cents here.  I know these kinds of games are probably the
hardest to program, despite not having any realtime or 3D audio or what
have you.
All the best,
Zack.

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-13 Thread Che


I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was somewhat 
successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too complicated to 
play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too much 
practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks all the 
time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high end 
sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting game as 
posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and didn't want to 
spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to sell, especially 
such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would have enjoyed the 
online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot, as those that play 
rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough of them out there to 
justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done, 
but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just a 
simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer passionate 
about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they do, 
and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists lately 
from what i've seen.

We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands 
of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love 
doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of my 
dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they are the 
best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen anywhere 
else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this stuff.
i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, hosted 
by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the damage 
they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they don't care. i know 
some of them are reading this, and if you are sharing any cracked games, you 
should be very ashamed of yourself. in sucha small market, the damage you 
are doing is immense.
 Bottom line, if your a fellow developer working on a game now, my hat is 
off to you, this is a hard task without much reward or thanks, but non 
developers don't get that  and don't seem to care either.  But having said 
that, can't we push the envelope a little bit?  Do we really need another 
shoot em up or arcade action game? hasn't all that been done enough by now?

later
che 



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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-13 Thread Bryan Peterson

Exactly. My new girlfriend Angel and I have been talking about teaming up to 
try designing some games since she's apparently a very skilled programmer. 
She's sighted but when I mentioned the idea of audio gaming she seemed quite 
fascinated with the idea. So we'll see what happens. We're definitely going 
to try to develop some more complex games, maybe an RPG or two or something 
along the lines of the old Castlevania games.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too much 
practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks all 
the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to 
sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would 
have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot, 
as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough 
of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done, 
but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just 
a simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they do, 
and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists lately 
from what i've seen.

We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands 
of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love 
doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of 
my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they 
are the best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen 
anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this 
stuff.
i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, hosted 
by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the damage 
they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they don't care. i 
know some of them are reading this, and if you are sharing any cracked 
games, you should be very ashamed of yourself. in sucha small market, the 
damage you are doing is immense.
 Bottom line, if your a fellow developer working on a game now, my hat is 
off to you, this is a hard task without much reward or thanks, but non 
developers don't get that  and don't seem to care either.  But having said 
that, can't we push the envelope a little bit?  Do we really need another 
shoot em up or arcade action game? hasn't all that been done enough by 
now?

later
che

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-13 Thread Scott Chesworth

Rail racer is an interesting case imho, probably the hardest
accessible game I've played yet.  I find it fascinating that somehow
I've become hooked on a game that, no disrespect to Che, doesn't
particularly have a thrilling plot, has no changing scenery or
atmosphere or randomisation, it's purely about developing your skills.
 I haven't been tested this much since the first time I realised it
was possible to take Mortal Kombat seriously and actually get good.
Of course the online element of it will be a big deal for those who
take part, it's probably the biggest advancement in mainstream gaming
too (not counting graphics).  Haven't dived into that yet, I don't
fancy the humiliation haha.

Not sure what my point is really here, I'm just thinking outloud so
that someone other than the developer himself says that Rail Racer is
well worth a look if you want something that feels a little different
to play and reaps a different kind of rewarding feeling to the GMA
style stuff.

Scott

On 8/14/09, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote:
 Exactly. My new girlfriend Angel and I have been talking about teaming up to
 try designing some games since she's apparently a very skilled programmer.
 She's sighted but when I mentioned the idea of audio gaming she seemed quite
 fascinated with the idea. So we'll see what happens. We're definitely going
 to try to develop some more complex games, maybe an RPG or two or something
 along the lines of the old Castlevania games.
 You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
 Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
 - Original Message -
 From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 8:01 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


 I agree with ya man,
  I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was
 somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too
 complicated to play.
  folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too much

 practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks all
 the time.
   next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse
 support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high
 end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting
 game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and
 didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to
 sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would
 have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot,
 as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough
 of them out there to justify the time spent.
 you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done,
 but it will have to wait.
 I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to
 sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just
 a simple shoot em up.
  anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if
 folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer
 passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
  as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they do,

 and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists lately
 from what i've seen.
 We can only hope that changes soon.
 This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands
 of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love
 doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
  I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of
 my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they
 are the best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen
 anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this
 stuff.
 i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, hosted

 by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the damage
 they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they don't care. i
 know some of them are reading this, and if you are sharing any cracked
 games, you should be very ashamed of yourself. in sucha small market, the
 damage you are doing is immense.
  Bottom line, if your a fellow developer working on a game now, my hat is
 off to you, this is a hard task without much reward or thanks, but non
 developers don't get that  and don't seem to care either.  But having said

 that, can't we push the envelope a little bit?  Do we really need another
 shoot em up or arcade action game? hasn't all that been done enough by
 now?
 later
 che

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Don't get me wrong, I respect the developers of all audio games because each 
game is a new exploration in audio gaming itself; I have been playing games 
both audio and graphical for many years and I'm a true gamer; I think most 
of the list are true gamers and are hungry for more; we as a culture of 
audio game players have come a long way, I would like us to keep moving up 
levels in creation, and not be stagnated in certain type of games; just as 
we have come a long way from my first game battle ship, to my favorite 
Tank Commander, we still have much more game exploration to conquer, and I 
know with new technology and innovation we will become more extravagant in 
our options of game playing.. Thanks
- Original Message - 
From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Sure, I'd love a huge library of varied titles to choose from as much
as the next bored blind guy with a penchant for gaming, but to be
blunt, saying I want this, we need that doesn't actually do much.
For your I want this, we need that to become a reality, the fact is
that somebody has got to sit down and put in the hours of story
creation, game design, and hard graft coding to make the product.  The
reason that people use the GMA engine seems to be that it's stable and
will save them hundreds of hours of building their own from scratch.
The reason that we're lacking variation is that a developer with a
great imagination, top writing skills, a knack for inivative
usability, bags of skill at writing code, and tons of time to pour
into all those things and probably some others I've missed hasn't
materialised yet.  The creation of mainstream titles has that work
load spread across huge teams of people in the cases of the games you
mentioned, most of the time we're talking about whole teams for each
specific area.  Every one of those people gets paid full time to do
it, has an actual budget to work with, and has probably fought pretty
hard to be doing the job they're doing.  Maybe you're actually the
developer we need having read all that?  I know I'm not.

I skated over a few points about graphics etc because they were...
well... a bit ridiculous.
Sorry it's slightly ranty, I've just had a surprising hour of
discovering how much playability there is left in the games I own now
I've switched away from the keyboard and I don't like seeing the good
developers we actually do have being put down much.

Scott

On 8/14/09, CSF inc. elohee...@verizon.net wrote:

With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's disappointing;
There are interesting games we play but very few; other games are not
accessible to certain computers and operating systems; others are so 
simple

and plain, for some of us who has played regular games, it's
disheartening; Effort should be made into making games more involved, 
more

ideas ie stop making games off of GMA's frame work, There is only 1
Shades, 1 Tank Commander..  lastly, we need games we can play along with 
our

sighted family like Soul Caliber. We have no fighting games, no sports
games we can play without some A.I. making it not real; even though the 
2nd
best player in the world in Mortal Combat is Blind!! We should of taken 
that


initiative

 and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal.. Are
blind people not sports fans? would we like to box? run the football? aim
the pitch in a baseball game? even fly a F-16 in combat.. Sim's are O.K. 
I
guess, but it takes the control and fun out of the game.. Some will 
complain
about this post, some will agree; the point is We Need More Variety, And 
Not

The Same Games With Different Titles.. What happened to Star Wars Jedi
attack? OOh Yeah Baby..
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-13 Thread Ken

Rail Racer too hard to play?  No way dude--it's just laziness on the part of 
people who don't want to take, like, five hours to really give a game a 
chance.  Personally I hope you start working with Wiimote support soon.  I'd 
love to learn how to program for the Wii--I'm currently between projects 
having lost all the source code to Wrecking Ball.  I'd love a good project 
to sink my brain into, especially as my hearing problem is getting worse and 
I really can't say for sure how long I'll even be able to play audio games. 
With my luck, as soon as I give up due to inability to play, someone will 
come out with something really complex like Grand Theft UFO or something. 
Anyway, I'd personally love to see a good fighting game too.

Ken





Do you live near Sandusky Ohio, or are you planning a trip to Cedar Point?
Receive a massage at very competitive rates--$40 per hour for a revitalizing 
therapeutic massage,

$65 per house call--any time, anywhere (within reason.)
Call 419-577-7973
I'll ease your pain and discomfort, loosen and mobilize your stiff joints, 
relax your achy muscles, and help you let go of stress, depression, and 
nervous anxiety...

Ken Downey, LMT

President of Blind Comfort!
The Caring Without the Staring
and
DreamtechInteractive
- Original Message - 
From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too much 
practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks all 
the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to 
sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would 
have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot, 
as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough 
of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done, 
but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just 
a simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they do, 
and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists lately 
from what i've seen.

We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands 
of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love 
doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of 
my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they 
are the best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen 
anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this 
stuff.
i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, hosted 
by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the damage 
they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they don't care. i 
know some of them are reading this, and if you are sharing any cracked 
games, you should be very ashamed of yourself. in sucha small market, the 
damage you are doing is immense.
 Bottom line, if your a fellow developer working on a game now, my hat is 
off to you, this is a hard task without much reward or thanks, but non 
developers don't get that  and don't seem to care either.  But having said 
that, can't we push the envelope a little bit?  Do we really need another 
shoot em up or arcade action game? hasn't all that been done enough by 
now?

later
che

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

2009-08-13 Thread Ken

Well, what we need is our own game team.  We need two or three developers 
working together to program it, we need at least four actors/actresses, we 
need sound engineers and effects guys.  I think a team of six or so could 
really pull something incredible off, especially if they didn't get 
impatient about getting a product out fast.  I think that's the only way a 
truly new innovative game is going to come out--because one person can only 
do so much.  I suppose that Che could have spent ten years on Rail Racer and 
really done a lot more with it--but by then everything would change and he'd 
have to start from scratch.
So how bout some team spirit and a little unity, eh?  I'm great with sound 
effects, acting and narrating,   and music.  I'm not a very good programmer, 
and I stop at VB6 for now--maybe I'll learn more later.





Do you live near Sandusky Ohio, or are you planning a trip to Cedar Point?
Receive a massage at very competitive rates--$40 per hour for a revitalizing 
therapeutic massage,

$65 per house call--any time, anywhere (within reason.)
Call 419-577-7973
I'll ease your pain and discomfort, loosen and mobilize your stiff joints, 
relax your achy muscles, and help you let go of stress, depression, and 
nervous anxiety...

Ken Downey, LMT

President of Blind Comfort!
The Caring Without the Staring
and
DreamtechInteractive
- Original Message - 
From: CSF inc. elohee...@verizon.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle


Don't get me wrong, I respect the developers of all audio games because 
each game is a new exploration in audio gaming itself; I have been playing 
games both audio and graphical for many years and I'm a true gamer; I 
think most of the list are true gamers and are hungry for more; we as a 
culture of audio game players have come a long way, I would like us to 
keep moving up levels in creation, and not be stagnated in certain type of 
games; just as we have come a long way from my first game battle ship, 
to my favorite Tank Commander, we still have much more game exploration to 
conquer, and I know with new technology and innovation we will become more 
extravagant in our options of game playing.. Thanks
- Original Message - 
From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle



Sure, I'd love a huge library of varied titles to choose from as much
as the next bored blind guy with a penchant for gaming, but to be
blunt, saying I want this, we need that doesn't actually do much.
For your I want this, we need that to become a reality, the fact is
that somebody has got to sit down and put in the hours of story
creation, game design, and hard graft coding to make the product.  The
reason that people use the GMA engine seems to be that it's stable and
will save them hundreds of hours of building their own from scratch.
The reason that we're lacking variation is that a developer with a
great imagination, top writing skills, a knack for inivative
usability, bags of skill at writing code, and tons of time to pour
into all those things and probably some others I've missed hasn't
materialised yet.  The creation of mainstream titles has that work
load spread across huge teams of people in the cases of the games you
mentioned, most of the time we're talking about whole teams for each
specific area.  Every one of those people gets paid full time to do
it, has an actual budget to work with, and has probably fought pretty
hard to be doing the job they're doing.  Maybe you're actually the
developer we need having read all that?  I know I'm not.

I skated over a few points about graphics etc because they were...
well... a bit ridiculous.
Sorry it's slightly ranty, I've just had a surprising hour of
discovering how much playability there is left in the games I own now
I've switched away from the keyboard and I don't like seeing the good
developers we actually do have being put down much.

Scott

On 8/14/09, CSF inc. elohee...@verizon.net wrote:
With the current game circle we have as blind gamers, it's 
disappointing;

There are interesting games we play but very few; other games are not
accessible to certain computers and operating systems; others are so 
simple

and plain, for some of us who has played regular games, it's
disheartening; Effort should be made into making games more involved, 
more

ideas ie stop making games off of GMA's frame work, There is only 1
Shades, 1 Tank Commander..  lastly, we need games we can play along with 
our

sighted family like Soul Caliber. We have no fighting games, no sports
games we can play without some A.I. making it not real; even though the 
2nd
best player in the world in Mortal Combat is Blind!! We should of taken 
that


initiative

 and created some type of fighting game at least similar to Mortal

Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Your the man, and can't wait for your football game, dude, call me 
personally.. As for a fighting game. I can only wish, and allot of other 
blind gamers I know is starving for it.. And what about up to dat music? 
Rock, Hip - Hop, club, dance.. Come on it's almost 2010.. Later
- Original Message - 
From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too much 
practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks all 
the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to 
sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would 
have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot, 
as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough 
of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done, 
but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just 
a simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they do, 
and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists lately 
from what i've seen.

We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands 
of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love 
doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of 
my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they 
are the best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen 
anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this 
stuff.
i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, hosted 
by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the damage 
they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they don't care. i 
know some of them are reading this, and if you are sharing any cracked 
games, you should be very ashamed of yourself. in sucha small market, the 
damage you are doing is immense.
 Bottom line, if your a fellow developer working on a game now, my hat is 
off to you, this is a hard task without much reward or thanks, but non 
developers don't get that  and don't seem to care either.  But having said 
that, can't we push the envelope a little bit?  Do we really need another 
shoot em up or arcade action game? hasn't all that been done enough by 
now?

later
che

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

That sounds great and that is the innovation I was talking about..
- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net
To: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

Exactly. My new girlfriend Angel and I have been talking about teaming up 
to try designing some games since she's apparently a very skilled 
programmer. She's sighted but when I mentioned the idea of audio gaming 
she seemed quite fascinated with the idea. So we'll see what happens. 
We're definitely going to try to develop some more complex games, maybe an 
RPG or two or something along the lines of the old Castlevania games.

You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin.
Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice.
- Original Message - 
From: Che c...@blindadrenaline.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle

I agree with ya man,
 I tried something different with rail racer, and I suppose it was 
somewhat successful, but i got lots of complaints that it was too 
complicated to play.
 folks complain if it is too easy, if it is too hard, if it takes too 
much practice to master, blah blah blah. just can't please all the folks 
all the time.
  next i am doing an online playable football game, driven with mouse 
support, custom plays, online season play against human opponents, high 
end sound effects, etc. . I was going to do a really involved fighting 
game as posted on list here, but didn't get much feedback on it, and 
didn't want to spend the next 18 months on something that wasn't going to 
sell, especially such an ambitious project. I think the folks that would 
have enjoyed the online fighting game would have really enjoyed it a lot, 
as those that play rail racer constantly do, but there just aren't enough 
of them out there to justify the time spent.
you can check the archives for details. the project might still get done, 
but it will have to wait.
I think the masses want simple and easy, and those kind of games seem to 
sell the best. troop n em sold a lot of copies, and at its core, its just 
a simple shoot em up.
 anyhow, i want a killer football game myself, so I'm gonna make one. if 
folks like it fine, if not, whatever, you got to go with what yer 
passionate about, or the results come out luke warm at best.
 as for other developers out there, i can't comment, they do what they 
do, and so far innovation hasn't been at the top of any of their lists 
lately from what i've seen.

We can only hope that changes soon.
This is not a money making market to spend hundreds and perhaps thousands 
of hours on a project and make just a few grand on it. you have to love 
doing it almost as a hobby , or yer in for dissapointment.
 I set up the card room because I love poker, and also to offset some of 
my dedicated server costs, and folks that have played have told me they 
are the best card games out there for the blind, with features not seen 
anywhere else. But even so, nobody is gonna make a living doing this 
stuff.
i've seen cracked copies of most of the accessible games out there, 
hosted by fellow blinks. these people are total idiots, not realizing the 
damage they are doing to the accessible gaming market, but they don't 
care. i know some of them are reading this, and if you are sharing any 
cracked games, you should be very ashamed of yourself. in sucha small 
market, the damage you are doing is immense.
 Bottom line, if your a fellow developer working on a game now, my hat is 
off to you, this is a hard task without much reward or thanks, but non 
developers don't get that  and don't seem to care either.  But having 
said that, can't we push the envelope a little bit?  Do we really need 
another shoot em up or arcade action game? hasn't all that been done 
enough by now?

later
che

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Re: [Audyssey] The real Game Circle