Re: Newbie Questions!
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 07/19/2006 at 05:02 PM, SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN tdell T'[EMAIL PROTECTED] said: PDP's have a bus arbitration or granting scheme, DEC had a number of very different processors with PDP in their name; I suspect that you're thinking of the PDP-11, and I'm not sure that it is even true for all PDP-11 models. It's certainly not true for, e.g., PDP-5. Mainframe's as far I knew didn't. Again, there are a lot of very different mainframe implementations, even within the same line. Many of them have bus arbitration. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
Through the ISPVCALL STATUS function, I found that the system I'm on is a zArch 2064 with 4 CPUs; however, is there a way I can retrieve [snip] All that being said it could be a 2064-104, 2064-1C4, or a 2064-2C4 depending on features. You can use the command D M=CPU to find your model number. The ISPVCALL command tells you the number of General Purpose processors (GCPs) the current LPAR (i.e. z/OS image) has. The machine itself might have more GCPs being used by other LPARs (z/OS or other operating system images). Also there are zAAP and zIIP processors which, while physically identical to GCPs, are only being used to execute certain types of threads (JAVA tasks and DB2 SRBs). Those processors do not appear in the model number. If you have access to RMF, a partition data report will give you more details about the physical machine. Peter Hunkeler CREDIT SUISSE -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: newbie questions!
I strongly disagree. Some good programmers are arrogant, but then again so are some bad ones. The best ones realize that they don't -- and can't -- know it all, and they make allowances for it. Edsger Dijkstra even made humility the point of a paper he delivered at a Turing Award lecture, said paper being entitled The Humble Programmer. His argument was that most of the art/science of programming centers around trying to compensate for our finite cranial capacity. This is indisputably true. As Steve McConnell puts it, The people who are the best at programming are the people who realize how small their brains are. They are humble. The prople who are the worst at programming are the people who refuse to accept the fact that their brains aren't equal to the task. That may be a different sense of the word humility than you were discussing, but I think it is relevant. In more practical terms, arrogant programmers all too frequently become prima donnas, which often affords them the opportunity to become the best programmer nobody wants to work with. Jon snip 'Humility'? Anyone entering a new field has perforce much to learn from some of its experienced denizens, but humility should be short-lived. No good programmer I have every known was at all humble, and the great ones were/are well aware of their abilities, even [some few of them] arrogant about their skills. /snip -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 15:46:27 -0400, Kuredjian, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm currently in University on my Co-op term as a COBOL programmer for host systems (zOS). I have a few basic questions regarding the zArchitecture that I can't seem to elicit answers to from my co-workers. The questions are as follows: 1. zOS has a kernel called the BCP, or Base Control Program. In Linux or Windows, it's established that the kernel runs on a general purpose CPU( PowerPC, x86, MIPS, etc...); however, I would like to know if such a central CPU exists in the mainframe, and if that central CPU is of some common architecture like, POWER. If not, are there any documents that I can look into that will describe the CPU architecture for me? While the processor has been enhanced over the years, the CPU may be the first general purpose architecture still in existence. The 360 architecture is still an integral and important part of z/Architecture, and almost any program written for 360 will run without being modified on z/Architecture. 2. ESCON and FICON are data busses used for external storage devices, but what does the mainframe use for internal data bus, InfiniBand, HyperTransport? IBM doesn't make the internal details available. In order to perform, there is a lot of point-to-point interconnect. Paths to memory are very wide, again to improve performance. I can't seem to find the last reference I found, but I think it's 256 bytes. FICON is essentially Fibre Channel with extra layers to improve security. 3. Does the mainframe use common interconnects on the hardware level? I'm thinking of PCIe, PCI-X, MCA, or PCI. AS someone mentioned, there are PCI slots for cryptographic processors, but for general use, none of those is fast enough. Connections from memory to the channels is through 16 Self Timed Interconnect (STI) busses per book (a maximum of 64), each of which is capable of independently transferring 2.7 Gigabytes per second. The z9 EC can support up to 336 FICON channels, and STI is how the data is transferred between the channels and memory. The channels on the mainframe do not talk directly to devices, but to control units, which are specialized processors that relieve the processor of the details of most of the workings of the device. There are tons of details on the IBM web site. Try these, for example: http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/hardware/ http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/ Good luck, and welcome to the platform! Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
Thanks to all of those that are replying. I've found a wealth of information in the IBM RD website. They have an issue that details the architecture of the z990 CPU very clearly. It seems as through IBM is modernizing the arch to handle more OOE/Superscalar execution as they make a push to SOA and e-business models. Out of curiosity, I've started poking around the system I've access to through ISPF to find out more regarding the hardware. Through the ISPVCALL STATUS function, I found that the system I'm on is a zArch 2064 with 4 CPUs; however, is there a way I can retrieve the model # of this system as well? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:35 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Newbie Questions! On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 15:46:27 -0400, Kuredjian, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm currently in University on my Co-op term as a COBOL programmer for host systems (zOS). I have a few basic questions regarding the zArchitecture that I can't seem to elicit answers to from my co-workers. The questions are as follows: 1. zOS has a kernel called the BCP, or Base Control Program. In Linux or Windows, it's established that the kernel runs on a general purpose CPU( PowerPC, x86, MIPS, etc...); however, I would like to know if such a central CPU exists in the mainframe, and if that central CPU is of some common architecture like, POWER. If not, are there any documents that I can look into that will describe the CPU architecture for me? While the processor has been enhanced over the years, the CPU may be the first general purpose architecture still in existence. The 360 architecture is still an integral and important part of z/Architecture, and almost any program written for 360 will run without being modified on z/Architecture. 2. ESCON and FICON are data busses used for external storage devices, but what does the mainframe use for internal data bus, InfiniBand, HyperTransport? IBM doesn't make the internal details available. In order to perform, there is a lot of point-to-point interconnect. Paths to memory are very wide, again to improve performance. I can't seem to find the last reference I found, but I think it's 256 bytes. FICON is essentially Fibre Channel with extra layers to improve security. 3. Does the mainframe use common interconnects on the hardware level? I'm thinking of PCIe, PCI-X, MCA, or PCI. AS someone mentioned, there are PCI slots for cryptographic processors, but for general use, none of those is fast enough. Connections from memory to the channels is through 16 Self Timed Interconnect (STI) busses per book (a maximum of 64), each of which is capable of independently transferring 2.7 Gigabytes per second. The z9 EC can support up to 336 FICON channels, and STI is how the data is transferred between the channels and memory. The channels on the mainframe do not talk directly to devices, but to control units, which are specialized processors that relieve the processor of the details of most of the workings of the device. There are tons of details on the IBM web site. Try these, for example: http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/hardware/ http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/ Good luck, and welcome to the platform! Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
Tom, FICON is essentially Fibre Channel with extra layers to improve security. Extra layers to improve security? I would have said that essentially FICON is ESCON encapsulated in Fibre Channel Protocol. Ron -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
I would have said that essentially FICON is ESCON encapsulated in Fibre Channel Protocol. Ron, I don't pretend to be expert in channel protocols, but from what I read the FICON protocols are quite different from ESCON. I've read that ESCON does a channel-CU conversation for each CCW in a chain, with data blocks in between, but FICON batches up CCWs and usually sends an entire CCW chain in one block. Did I dream this, or would be more accurate to say that FICON is zArch channel programming encapsulated in FCP? I also believed that the FICON extensions to FCP were to accomplish this, not for security -- Bruce Black Senior Software Developer Innovation Data Processing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 07/18/2006 at 05:26 PM, SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN tdell T'[EMAIL PROTECTED] said: To recap.. Much of that is wrong. Mainframes don't actually have a backplane that's governed by a bus arbitrator scheme as some implementation have done in the past. Some do. That channel subsystem as it was called, was strictly a place for the more experienced coders so beware. It has it's own methodology when it came to writing code. You don't write code for the channel. There is a very limited set of opcodes for channel command words and there is no provision for even simple computation. The channel subsystem is really a processor in it's own right. On some mainfames, not on all. The channels on, e.g., the 360/40, 360/50, 370/145, 370/155, worked by cycle stealing. All throughout the architecture you'll find various processors that are part of the machine architectural composition, No, that's implementation. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 07/18/2006 at 03:46 PM, Kuredjian, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 1. zOS has a kernel called the BCP, or Base Control Program. Now. The term kernel in CS carries with it a load of assumptions that simply don't apply; they aren't even wrong, but totally meaningless. You might think of the nucleus as being the kernel, but that would still be horribly misleading. The BCP includes a host of functions that run in normal address spaces and tasks, roughly comparable to process and threads in the Unix world. In Linux or Windows, it's established that the kernel runs on a general purpose CPU( PowerPC, x86, MIPS, etc...); however, I would like to know if such a central CPU exists in the mainframe, and if that central CPU is of some common architecture like, POWER. There are many mainframes. The ones that z/OS runs on have architectures called S/390 and zSeries. If not, are there any documents that I can look into that will describe the CPU architecture for me? Wouldn't such documents mean that there *is* a common architecture? As, in fact, there is, and it is described in the zSeries Principles of Operation. 2. ESCON and FICON are data busses used for external storage devices, but what does the mainframe use for internal data bus, InfiniBand, HyperTransport? It's not part of the architecture what it uses internally, and different processor complexes use different busses, none of which are in your list. 3. Does the mainframe use common interconnects on the hardware level? I'm thinking of PCIe, PCI-X, MCA, or PCI. The architecture defines interconnects that are not in your list. Some processor complexes have PCI slots, but that is *not* part of the architecture. Please skim[1] PoOps and then come back with the questions it raises. [1] You probably don't want to read it straight through just yet. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: newbie questions!
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 07/19/2006 at 12:55 AM, john gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: No good programmer I have every known was at all humble, That depends on what you mean be humility; every good programmer that I've met was aware of his own abilities *and* of his own limitations. even [some few of them] arrogant about their skills. When arrogance keeps them from seeing problems in their code then they aren't great programmers, or even good programmers. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: newbie questions!
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 07/19/2006 at 09:57 AM, Jon Brock [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Edsger Dijkstra even made humility the point of a paper he delivered at a Turing Award lecture, said paper being entitled The Humble Programmer. Unfortunately, he displayed supreme arrogance in that very paper :-( In more practical terms, arrogant programmers all too frequently become prima donnas, That's the least of the problems. They develop blind spots that cause bugs to remain unresolved. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
On 7/19/06, Kuredjian, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Through the ISPVCALL STATUS function, I found that the system I'm on is a zArch 2064 with 4 CPUs; however, is there a way I can retrieve the model # of this system as well? 2064 is the model number, which is a zSeries 900 processor. Gabe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
On 7/19/06, Edward Jaffe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2064 is the model number, which is a zSeries 900 processor. No. 2064 is the CPU type. The model number is a (usually three digit) number that follows the type, separated by a hyphen. For example, 2064-101. Semantics in my opinion. I've seen numerous references to both. I figured since the OP started this newbie thread I would KISS. But I agree and defer to you. Gabe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
To reap what I have sowed. Most programmers have confidence, which is not to be confused with arrogance, which has no place in a craft like this. This is a practiced craft, so I haven't met anybody , with the exception of the Scientist's at Palo Alto , who could call themselves above their craft (even they where a humble lot) and those guys where good. PDP's have a bus arbitration or granting scheme, Mainframe's as far I knew didn't. They may have used other schemes, but as far as I could tell, I didn't know of any. As as I was taught , the CS used an interrupt driven scheme for device allocation. Beyond that I leave those areas for the more seasoned experts who know. CDC's or Ahmdal's, Burroughs where not my take, they could have used anything I , and would have not known any different CCW coding to which I was referring is the way you custom programmed various I/O device ( including CKD, printers or tape, or Card reader or punches, even 3770/3780['s ). Much of that coding was handled by the more experienced coders, who new something about the target devices. General assembler application programming, where I did my coding was another set of skills entirely. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
Through the ISPVCALL STATUS function, I found that the system I'm on is a zArch 2064 with 4 CPUs; however, is there a way I can retrieve the model # of this system as well? 2064 is the model number, which is a zSeries 900 processor. No. 2064 is the CPU type. The model number is a (usually three digit) number that follows the type, separated by a hyphen. For example, 2064-101. All that being said it could be a 2064-104, 2064-1C4, or a 2064-2C4 depending on features. You can use the command D M=CPU to find your model number. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
Bruce, Ron, I don't pretend to be expert in channel protocols, but from what I read the FICON protocols are quite different from ESCON. I've read that ESCON does a channel-CU conversation for each CCW in a chain, with data blocks in between, but FICON batches up CCWs and usually sends an entire CCW chain in one block. Did I dream this, or would be more accurate to say that FICON is zArch channel programming encapsulated in FCP? I also believed that the FICON extensions to FCP were to accomplish this, not for security There are probably a dozen ways to say it simply, but simple must ignore the nuances. FCP is a transport protocol that we can stuff things inside of. We could say that FICON is CKD over FCP, ESCON over FCP or zArch channel programming encapsulated in FCP? There are changes that FCP allow to occur (as you described), and there are ESCON limitations that remained in FICON for quite some time (e.g. single hop ISL). Personally I feel that ESCON on FCP is a comparable generalisation to SCSI over FCP and IP over FCP. Ron -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Newbie Questions!
I'm currently in University on my Co-op term as a COBOL programmer for host systems (zOS). I have a few basic questions regarding the zArchitecture that I can't seem to elicit answers to from my co-workers. The questions are as follows: 1. zOS has a kernel called the BCP, or Base Control Program. In Linux or Windows, it's established that the kernel runs on a general purpose CPU( PowerPC, x86, MIPS, etc...); however, I would like to know if such a central CPU exists in the mainframe, and if that central CPU is of some common architecture like, POWER. If not, are there any documents that I can look into that will describe the CPU architecture for me? 2. ESCON and FICON are data busses used for external storage devices, but what does the mainframe use for internal data bus, InfiniBand, HyperTransport? 3. Does the mainframe use common interconnects on the hardware level? I'm thinking of PCIe, PCI-X, MCA, or PCI. That's all for now, but I'm sure subsequent answers will generate follow-up questions on my part. Thanks for taking the time to read this! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
I'll take a try at a few of these. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kuredjian, Michael Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:46 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Newbie Questions! I'm currently in University on my Co-op term as a COBOL programmer for host systems (zOS). I have a few basic questions regarding the zArchitecture that I can't seem to elicit answers to from my co-workers. The questions are as follows: 1. zOS has a kernel called the BCP, or Base Control Program. In Linux or Windows, it's established that the kernel runs on a general purpose CPU( PowerPC, x86, MIPS, etc...); however, I would like to know if such a central CPU exists in the mainframe, and if that central CPU is of some common architecture like, POWER. If not, are there any documents that I can look into that will describe the CPU architecture for me? In the zSeries world, the bible for how the CPU operates is called The Principles of Operations. You can read this on the web at: http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR003/CCON TENTS Now, this does not describe 100% of all of the facilities embedded in the zSeries. It mainly describe the __majority__ of the instructions implemented on the zSeries and how some things such as timers and memory access work. There are secret facilities within the zSeries which are not documented outside of IBM. 2. ESCON and FICON are data busses used for external storage devices, but what does the mainframe use for internal data bus, InfiniBand, HyperTransport? The zSeries uses its own internal data bus technology. I think they call it the STI (Self Timed Interface?). But these internals are not as widely documented as the ones that you mentioned. Basically, I think that IBM doesn't care if you know how it works internally because: (1) you can't make use of the knowledge anyway and (2) if it were documented, somebody might try to make that knowledge part of their software, leading to problems with that software in the future. You might want to go to the web site: http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/journal/rd/ there are many articles here on IBM technologies, including the zSeries, iSeries, and pSeries. Along with a boat load of more theoritical papers. But you can stumble on facinating reading at times. You might especially like: http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/journal/rd48-34.html (IBM eServer zSeries) http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/journal/rd46-45.html (IBM eServer z900) http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/journal/rd43-56.html (old S/390 Server G3 G4) http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/journal/rd39-12.html (CMOS techonology) 3. Does the mainframe use common interconnects on the hardware level? I'm thinking of PCIe, PCI-X, MCA, or PCI. Generally, no. However, the current zSeries do have some PCI slots in which some specialized cards can be inserted. I think one of the main uses is for the cryptographic coprocessors. It is certainly not a general interface where a end-user could insert their own PCI card. That's all for now, but I'm sure subsequent answers will generate follow-up questions on my part. Thanks for taking the time to read this! -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
At least for question 1, go find a manual called the Principles of Operations. You can search the IBM website by that name and then download it to read. The BCP is nothing more than the core MVS components. MVS is comprised of many subsystems, each doing a specialized function. The Kernel in your terms is the MVS Nucleus, which controls the activity between the many subsystems. There are many CPu's on a Z-series. Some have as few as one, some have as many as 54. The BCP runs on all of them at the same time. For answers to questions 2 and 3, you might try searching the IBM Journal, and the IBM Journal of Research and Developement. Machine architectures change every few years, so the answers depend on the type of machine you are interested in. On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 15:46:27 -0400, Kuredjian, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm currently in University on my Co-op term as a COBOL programmer for host systems (zOS). I have a few basic questions regarding the zArchitecture that I can't seem to elicit answers to from my co-workers. The questions are as follows: 1. zOS has a kernel called the BCP, or Base Control Program. In Linux or Windows, it's established that the kernel runs on a general purpose CPU( PowerPC, x86, MIPS, etc...); however, I would like to know if such a central CPU exists in the mainframe, and if that central CPU is of some common architecture like, POWER. If not, are there any documents that I can look into that will describe the CPU architecture for me? 2. ESCON and FICON are data busses used for external storage devices, but what does the mainframe use for internal data bus, InfiniBand, HyperTransport? 3. Does the mainframe use common interconnects on the hardware level? I'm thinking of PCIe, PCI-X, MCA, or PCI. That's all for now, but I'm sure subsequent answers will generate follow-up questions on my part. Thanks for taking the time to read this! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
There is an IBM redbook, which you can download (no charge) at the IBM publications website, called Introduction to z/OS and the mainframe environment Get it and read it. You will then be able to reformulate your questions. John Gilmore Ashland, MA 01721-1817 USA From: Kuredjian, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Newbie Questions! Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 15:46:27 -0400 I'm currently in University on my Co-op term as a COBOL programmer for host systems (zOS). I have a few basic questions regarding the zArchitecture that I can't seem to elicit answers to from my co-workers. The questions are as follows: 1. zOS has a kernel called the BCP, or Base Control Program. In Linux or Windows, it's established that the kernel runs on a general purpose CPU( PowerPC, x86, MIPS, etc...); however, I would like to know if such a central CPU exists in the mainframe, and if that central CPU is of some common architecture like, POWER. If not, are there any documents that I can look into that will describe the CPU architecture for me? 2. ESCON and FICON are data busses used for external storage devices, but what does the mainframe use for internal data bus, InfiniBand, HyperTransport? 3. Does the mainframe use common interconnects on the hardware level? I'm thinking of PCIe, PCI-X, MCA, or PCI. That's all for now, but I'm sure subsequent answers will generate follow-up questions on my part. Thanks for taking the time to read this! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
Hi. Welcome to the world of z and IBM-MAIN. Go to http://www.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/bkserv/ On the right side of the page there is a link to the z/OS basics skill center and a z/OS Basics Redbook. This Redbook may be a good place to start along with the basics skill center. If you want to learn about systems programming at some point, there are also a set of Redbooks called The ABCs of System Programming or the ABCs of z/OS System Programming. z/OS / zSeries / System z is vast... the follow up questions could go on for years! :-) Also learn to search the archives of ibm-main to see if you question has been asked / answered before. More details to your questions below... but you have to do the downloading / reading yourself. :-) On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 15:46:27 -0400, Kuredjian, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. zOS has a kernel called the BCP, or Base Control Program. In Linux or Windows, it's established that the kernel runs on a general purpose CPU( PowerPC, x86, MIPS, etc...); however, I would like to know if such a central CPU exists in the mainframe, and if that central CPU is of some common architecture like, POWER. If not, are there any documents that I can look into that will describe the CPU architecture for me? Go to http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/ and search for IBM System z9 109 Technical Introduction. This will tell you about the most current technology. The prior technology was z990 (and z890) and before that was z900 (and z800). Prior to the z900 the hardware (and software) was limited to a 31-bit architecture. If you are interested in that look for 9672. 2. ESCON and FICON are data busses used for external storage devices, but what does the mainframe use for internal data bus, InfiniBand, HyperTransport? See #1. I thought I heard something about InfiniBand being used internally, but that may still be in the next processor generation. 3. Does the mainframe use common interconnects on the hardware level? I'm thinking of PCIe, PCI-X, MCA, or PCI. Search the same Redbook site for the IBM System z Connectivity Handbook Cheers, Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] z/OS and OS390 expert at http://searchDataCenter.com/ateExperts/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
Everything everyone has said so far is correct but IMHO all of the answers to question 1. (which is really two questions, kernel and architecture) have started at a level of detail beyond your question. The z/OS hardware is its own architecture. It is not x86 or POWER or Sparc or any popular architecture such as those. I guess the correct name at this point for the processor hardware design is zSeries architecture but you will often hear it informally called 390 architecture out of old habit - System 390, System 370, and System 360 were earlier names for the system. As others have pointed out, the processor is exhaustively, but not completely, documented in Principles of Operation. The old name, System 360, was chosen to evoke an all points of the compass approach to the hardware. It implements byte-, word- (multiple sizes of word), decimal-, and floating point-oriented instructions, as well as many, many special-purpose instructions. As others have said, IBM has recently placed tremendous emphasis on multi-processor designs - the speed of the box is many times greater than the speed of any one CPU. The kernel and all programs run on these processors. Well, actually, the channels - the external buss - implement instructions of their own, but that's way beyond the scope of this e-mail. The apparent processor architecture is - like most modern machines - implemented largely in microcode running on a lower level processor. (Also something called millicode, but let's not go there for now.) IBM has been moving that lower level processor in the general direction of the POWER chips, but they aren't there yet, so far as I know. Someone will no doubt quibble with nearly everything I say above. Welcome to IBM-MAIN. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kuredjian, Michael Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:46 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Newbie Questions! I'm currently in University on my Co-op term as a COBOL programmer for host systems (zOS). I have a few basic questions regarding the zArchitecture that I can't seem to elicit answers to from my co-workers. The questions are as follows: 1. zOS has a kernel called the BCP, or Base Control Program. In Linux or Windows, it's established that the kernel runs on a general purpose CPU( PowerPC, x86, MIPS, etc...); however, I would like to know if such a central CPU exists in the mainframe, and if that central CPU is of some common architecture like, POWER. If not, are there any documents that I can look into that will describe the CPU architecture for me? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
Charles Mills wrote: ... I guess the correct name at this point for the processor hardware design is zSeries architecture It's called z/Architecture, just like it says on the cover of the Principles of Operation manual. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
It's called z/Architecture I always called the manual z/Arch POP. I picked that up from a Canadian IBM'r. But, most didn't understand what that meant. When in doubt. PANIC!! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Newbie Questions!
All of the threads here where right on target, and should serve you well if you follow them as prescribed. I have found that there is no definitive source on the architecture. It is really a vast landscape , I actually read the hardware manual supplied with the 3031 CPU's,, they had a lot of instruction detail,, what a geek I was. To recap.. Mainframes don't actually have a backplane that's governed by a bus arbitrator scheme as some implementation have done in the past. That channel subsystem as it was called, was strictly a place for the more experienced coders so beware. It has it's own methodology when it came to writing code.The channel subsystem is really a processor in it's own right. All throughout the architecture you'll find various processors that are part of the machine architectural composition, but IBM does not disclose their originsie. OS/2 was used as a loader at one time. HMC's are now INTEL based..etc.. To actually program at the assembler level is fairly easy, debugging is where the nightmare starts. I/O on z/OS is straightforward, I/O on VSE is a little tricky. I/O on VM was a no brainier even though the manuals were almost indecipherable at times. V/M did provide the optimal learning environment since you could at one time run both DOS/MVS like macros. You interactively execute a program without much fear of harm, but you still had have some minimal knowledge of what was actually being performed on your behalf. IMHO the best place to start is by tracking down some of the old 360/370 textbooks. Many (all) are out of print.. But you can try OPAMP technical books in Los Angeles. Occasionally I'll see a book by Ivan ( make that Dr Ivan) Flores, Harry Katzan et al. These were good text books. There were some early books on microprogramming that did some in depth examination of the instruction sets from various Mainframe Manufacturers. You can try locating them, but this might be a little too over the top also. I find that the ABC's books are filled with good and useful information, but even they can be a little too over whelming at times. My two bits to learning. KISS, beg , borrow , steal , share good code. Make sure you have a GREEN card handy, THE POP is your friend, Macro instruction documentation are essential to getting past the bumps, and there will be many. If you ever run across those old blue XA manuals on macro coding grab'em they're golden, and you can still gleam a few tidbits from'em. Learn XDC or TSO test. Be humble,, there always a darn good assembler programmer hanging around who tell you a thing or two. I'm 25 years in and the guy sitting next to me is 50 years in. I'm humbled Good luck and keep following the thread. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: newbie questions!
'Humility'? Anyone entering a new field has perforce much to learn from some of its experienced denizens, but humility should be short-lived. No good programmer I have every known was at all humble, and the great ones were/are well aware of their abilities, even [some few of them] arrogant about their skills. Nothing much is ever achieved without radicall intellectual curiosity, a need to know how things work, and high ambition. The mules who transport visitors to and from the bottom of the Grand Canyon of the Colorado perform a valuable function, but it would be a mistake to consult even the most experienced of them about the archeology or geology of the Canyon. John Gilmore Ashland, MA 01721-1817 USA _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
