RE: t-and-f: Making dopes of us all
If you want to see some of the work Francis has done for T-Mag look at: http://www.testosterone.net/html/body_128high.html BTW, forget Francis for a moment. Publications like T-Mag and Flex are not where people go to specifically learn about steroids (though those publications at least implicitly support steroid use) or where Francis would go to be a steroid guru. There are more than enough steroid boards around giving advice on cycles, what type of gear to use, clearing times and the like. And yes, you do see track and field athletes posting to these boards. I've even seen much discussion by people talking about what the level of gear use was among their high school competitors. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of EAMONN CONDON Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:39 PM To: _Track Field Subject: t-and-f: Making dopes of us all The Electronic Telegraph Thursday 6 February 2003 Paul Hayward Testosterone Magazine is probably not on your list of weekly reads, so allow me to entertain you with a few literary offerings from Charlie Francis, the track and field guru who coached the eternally disgraced Ben Johnson and is now helping Tim Montgomery and Marion Jones, the world's fastest man and woman respectively. Francis is the Canadian Lazarus who was told by the athletics authorities this week that his crime sheet would be burnt if he came before the sport's star chamber with a statement denouncing drugs. They ought to have asked him two years ago, after the Sydney Olympics, when Francis was still writing and talking enthusiastically about performance-enhancing potions. In those days, the coach who helped Johnson acquire those fetching yellow eyes was not quite so fond of the International Association of Athletics Federations, who invited him to renounce his wicked past. During the nandrolone crisis, Francis wrote of the IAAF and International Olympic Committee in Testosterone, which is a form of pornography for body-builders: With all of the confusion and contradiction, it's reassuring to know there's one thing of which you can be absolutely sure. You can't believe anything these two organisations say! Hell, they don't even believe what they say! It's also reassuring to know that Francis somehow managed to persuade the former Ontario Chief Justice, Charles Dubin, to support his campaign in favour of moral amnesia. Dubin, who led the inquiry into Canada's great drugs scandal after the 1988 Olympics, was asked by a Toronto lawyer, Terry O'Sullivan, to provide a character reference for Testosterone's star columnist. The old judge assented, and later gushed in an interview with the Toronto Star: He [Francis] broke the code of silence and told his story at great personal sacrifice. The story was how he had helped Johnson run the 100 metres in 9.79sec in Seoul: the briefest and most graphic spasm of villainy in modern sport. The Toronto Star, to their credit, were not deterred. They asked Judge Dubin whether he was familiar with any of the pro-drug remarks Francis had been making in various interviews and articles. I haven't followed what he's said since the [Johnson] inquiry, Dubin responded. He's a personal trainer for a lot of people I know and they speak very highly of him. One arrow of Charlie Francis's wisdom that passed the judge by was this tribute to the pharmaceutical industry - again in Testosterone, a must-read for gym-addicted dysfunctionals: Drug use in sport has a long and grand tradition. Perhaps we really should give out medals to the scientists assisting the athletes. That'll never happen, of course. But make no mistake - the theme of modern sport regarding drug use remains 'business as usual'. After Sydney, Francis wrote: If anyone is clean, it's going to be the losers. How reassuring, then, to read Francis's response to the IAAF's kind invitation to him to clear the air. Since Johnson was busted, Francis said, he had never encouraged nor condoned the taking of banned performance-enhancing substances by any of the athletes who have consulted me. He also thanked Montgomery and Jones for rescuing him from purdah. He spoke of their personal integrity and decency and reached deep into Orwellian double-speak to say: To any rational observer, their deliberate choice of me as their consultant should be sufficient evidence that they do not use banned substances, since by their mere association with me they knew they would be subjected to public scrutiny and unjustified cynicism. If that's the Charlie Francis guide to rational observation, mark me down as certifiably irrational. Crackers, in fact. A straitjacket job. If his world is so right-way-up, one wonders why Jones and Montgomery issued a statement claiming they were being coached by an obscure Canadian, Derek Hansen, around the time that both athletes were spotted working with Francis at Toronto's York University and later in Hawaii. Click on to Francis's personal website and
RE: t-and-f: NCAA XC Nats - by state
An all-star team of former Illinois HS runners would be even stronger if you included Chris Siemers from Western State who has two top 10 D-II cross country finishes and would probably be an all-american in DI. He finished fourth behind the Torres and Sage in the Illinois HS XC meet and second to Sage in the 1600 in HS. When Western raced Colorado this year, Chris was four seconds behind Ed Torres. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of jsully13 Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: NCAA XC Nats - by state How did former high school runners do at the NCAA Division 1 Cross Country Nationals? Here's how the states fared. Scoring/places is for U.S. runners only and is based on where each guy went to high school. 1. Illinois 112 (J Torres Colo 1, D Sage Stanford 4, E Torres Colo 7, A Wallace Wisc 15, T Keller Wisc 85) 2. Michigan 117 (J Hartman Oregon 12, T Perlberg C Mich 23, J Flynn C Mich 25, J David E Mich 26, A Marsh Mich St 31) 3. Oregon 147 (G Robison Stanford 2, I Dobson Stanford 6, E Logsdon Ore 27, B Holts Ore 29, J Lucas Ore 83) 4. California 166 (I Festa Wisc 13, R Hall Stanford 24, B Nelson Colo 28, M Altieri Wake Forest 50, D Arevalo Utah 51) 5. Texas 244 (W Keating UTPA 16, L Jones BYU 49, B Dawson Tex 57, K King Tex 59, K Barra Tex 63) 6. Utah 261 (R Andrus Ore 22, N Sheikh N Ariz 36, J Tolman Weber St 38, J Atwater Weber St 68, K Richardson Weber St 97) 7. Montana 267 (S Watkins N Ariz 10, L Weese Mont St 11, C Jermyn Mont St 34, K Murphy Mont St 66, K Clary Mont St 146) 8. New York 271 (J Meany Clemson 33, T Witzleben La Salle 48, S Shaw Clemson 56, J OConnor WM 61, P Meindl Stanford 73) 9. New Jersey 359 (E Moran WM 19, J Fasulo Villanova 37, S Slattery Colo 47, M Pelerin Vill 117, S Defilippis Tenn 39) 10. Virginia 396 (B Lockhart Wisc 14, F Hower Georgetown 80, M Keally WM 84, J Frey WM 92, C Hurt WM 126) 11. Washington 433 12. Ohio 450 13. Indiana 471 14. Colorado 484 No other state had 5 finishers (No Carolina and Minnesota had 4) Last year 2001: 1. Michigan 84; 2. Illinois 115; 3. California 178; 4. Washington 220; 5. Oregon 221; 6. Texas 231; 7. Colorado 251; 8. Virginia 279; 9. Ohio 283; 10. New Jersey 330; 11. New York 386; 12 Minnesota 434; 13. No. Carolina 462; 14. Pennsylvania 485; 15. Indiana 575; 16. Arizona 579
RE: t-and-f: Buffs will be conservative at NCAA regional meet
In the local paper Jorge was quoted as saying that he felt he ran too hard. The BYU Kenyan was with him the first half of the race and when Jorge put a move on, no onw went with him so he got a big lead. I guess he felt good and just took it on in rather than shutting down. You can't really blame him for doing what competitive instincts tell you you should do. Right now I would say Jorge Torres has a better shot at a title than the Buffs do as a team, but they have had some brilliant peaks in years past so I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of CU's top 5 make a big leap forward at NCAA's. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Mike Prizy Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 11:04 AM To: magpie Cc: tandf listserv Subject: Re: t-and-f: Buffs will be conservative at NCAA regional meet Was this Buffs (Jorge)(being) conservative? What is that course Like? Subject: Re: t-and-f: Kangogo Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:01:25 -0500 (EST) From: Martin J Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: 1 Hamstring. NCAA Mountain West Regional 1. Jorge Torres (Colo) - 29:33 2. Anthony Ford (Mont) - 30:11 3. Edwardo Torres (Colo) - 30:22 ... 28. Kip Kangogo (BYU) - 30:55. Injured? Fell? Ran off course? What happened?? magpie wrote: http://www.dailycamera.com/bdc/cu_cross_country/article/0,1713,BDC_2450_1545 186,00.html CU focused on Nov. 25 national finals By Michael Sandrock, For the Camera November 14, 2002 Molly Austin, Jorge Torres and the Colorado cross country teams will be taking a track runner's mentality into Saturday's NCAA Mountain Region Championships in Albuquerque, N.M. They will view it as a preliminary, qualifying round, meaning that rather than trying to race as hard or as fast as they can at the meet, the Buffs will simply try and get through the race with the least effort possible, thereby saving themselves for the only race that matters this season the Nov. 25 NCAA championships. The CU men and women, both ranked No. 3 in the nation, are likely to advance from regionals, barring any great disaster. The men are favored to take the regional title, while defending NCAA champion and No. 1 BYU is favored in the women's race. The important one is Nov. 25, not regionals, said Torres, who at regionals and the NCAA's will face a new, fast Kenyan now enrolled at BYU. It would be too much to run a hard 10K (at regionals) and then another one a week and two days later. Austin, a fifth-year senior majoring in advertising, added: Mark likes us to run a structured race and not kill ourselves at regionals. We will keep it conservative and save ourselves for NCAAs. Both Colorado teams are coming off excellent races at the Big 12 Championships. Torres and Austin won the conference titles in course-record fashion, while the men and women both won the team championships. Best of all for Wetmore is the fact that all 16 runners he took to Missouri raced well. Across the board we had good performances, Wetmore said. Torres heads into regionals with three Big 12 titles in a row, while Austin has two consecutive conference wins to her credit. The only other CU woman to win the conference title twice was former NCAA champion Kara Grgas-Wheeler. I was really, really pleased with my (Big 12) race, Austin said. I am very excited because I did not feel great going in. I tried to get out well in the first kilometer, and once I was in the lead I pushed it. Austin said Wetmore has given the CU women a different approach to their season this year after some of the Buffs felt a bit fatigued at the 2001 NCAA championships. Mark started us out a little later with our speed work, and so I was not as sharp as I could have been at (the Oct. 19) pre-nationals, said Austin, who placed third in that race behind two of the top women in the country. Now that we are doing more speedwork, my legs are feeling more of a kick. Every race we get in helps. I am encouraged by conference because we thought Missouri would be very tough. Austin, who clocked 20:26 for the hilly 6K at Missouri, and teammates Sara Gorton (20:37) and Natalie Florence (20:40) swept the top three spots at the conference meet. Our team finish was the most exciting part of it all, Austin said. It was very encouraging with everything we have been through. ... We thought coming into the season that we had the best team ever at Colorado, but we had some injuries. Big 12's shows we're going to be tough. Each meet has been more impressive for our team. Colorado received a boost at Big 12's from senior Tera Moody, who placed 11th, and freshmen Christine Bolf (17th) and Jackie Zeigle (34th). Austin was a state champion in the 800 meters for Mullen High School in Littleton but did not run great in cross country as a prep. However, she has
RE: t-and-f: Track rules (was: banned high jump technique)
I believe that there were many 500m tracks in continental Europe in the early 20th century. However, modern track and field was essentially a British sport (and one that was developed to suit the needs of England's gambling-mad upper classes) and so their 1/4 mile track became the standard with the compromise in Europe of the 400m track which eventually those on the Imperial system adjusted to. But we could very easily have had 500m tracks and thus a whole different last 100 years of track. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-t-and-f;lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Christopher Goss Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 11:03 AM To: Ed and Dana Parrot; Athletics Subject: Re: t-and-f: Track rules (was: banned high jump technique) Most importantly, start making tracks 500m and this would be perfect. Until this happens and ignoring history (we're creating new events, remember?), why wouldn't we run 1600m internationally instead of 1500m? Ever since I was a kid (but not at the Mason-Dixon games, which I am sure were in yards), I have been bothered by the inconsistency of our metric track events. Why don't we standardize on either standard 250/500/1000m increments or on even numbers of laps at 200/400/800 increments? I don't recall any swimming events starting in the middle of the pool. If the 800 is acceptable, why not the 1600? If not, shouldn't we run 750m? Of course, I know the answers to these questions, but none of them really resolve or explain the inconsistency. The next time you see an 800m race, watch most of the folks in the stands at the bell lap. They will be watching the clock and doubling it to see how the race is going. Wanna know why I think the mile is still so popular? It's not because everyone has a soft spot for Bannister and Ryun, it is because they have a fighting chance of understanding whether the race is a good one time wise at each lap. I know I just made the point that times shouldn't matter (in a team meet, by the way), but I already spent that million. This is a different meet. Until the next million, that is my allotment of bandwidth for the day. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: Peak age... Americans have it wrong?
I think that an individual only has so many years at which they can train at a very high level. Those who are outside the U.S. college system probably start earlier than Americans do. Most American runners do not train seriously until college and many not until after college. Thus the peak ages probably differ a bit. It could very well be that the later American peak is also later than optimal. If we look into the past we find some top performances by Americans at a young age (Shorter, 24 in Munich for example). Personally, I'd rather have my peak at 21 than 31 (and hey I did!). If you are going to run a certain time in the end I'd rather not have to spend an extra 10 years training to do it. Worst of all, I've seen plenty of people at a plateau they never get beyond after about 25. They have years of frustration trying to break through it and few ever do. Regards, Paul Talbot -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Contopoulos Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 11:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Peak age... Americans have it wrong? Anyone ever notice that out of every sub 13 ever run the majority (i.e. all but 2 or 3) of the guys are 28 or younger? And that has nothing to do with Kenyans lying about their ages. We have Ethiopia, Germany, Morocco, USA , Algeria, Belgium, France, all listed there (granted the German was over 30 and the Belgian and French men are Moroccon by birth I believe). I mean even BK was only 26!!! Think about it a second. Our fastest 5k guys are usually 3:40low 1500 guys and 13:30ish 5k guys in college. If we assume that 24-28 are the peak years for a 5k runner (against the American idea that its 28-32), and the average elite athlete graduates at 23, then that means you have to improve A LOT and FAST if you are going to maximize your peak physical years. I'll be 25 in October, and I'll tell ya one thing, I'm past my physical peak. When I was 21/22 I could run 100 mile weeks, 2 workouts and a race... with easy days at 6:00 pace... but I would break if I tried half of that now (note: do not take the good training as a direct correlation to good racing)! Has anyone ever thought that the whole peak in you late 20s early 30's idea is outdated and maybe a by-product of the sentiment that college is the best thing for an 18 year old? I mean come on, how could college be bad... think of all the time you have when you are done! (sarcasm there). If you're halfway through your peak, training and racing like a wuss, not maximizing the body's healing capabilities at that age, you may miss the biological boat! Ideas? Oh yeah, the rare examples of those running fast late doesn't hold much water. What is fast today (in the 5k) is not what was fast 10 or 20 years ago. I'm talking sub 13:00s here. M _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
RE: t-and-f: BBC E-mail: Nigeria plans 2012 Olympic bid
This is easily a 1000-1 or more shot against Nigeria hosting in 2012. I would wager the Nigerians themselves do not even expect to have a chance at hosting. However, being an Olympic bidder has some cache and shows some comitment to modernization and international institutions which are good marketing angles for a developing state that desperately needs to attract foreign investment. The first African Olympics will be in Johanesburg or Cape Town with Lagos well behind. In any case, it may be 20 or 50 years off as we will likely see a string of Asian/Pacific and S. American cities host before and African city is ready to do so. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Lee Nichols Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 10:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: BBC E-mail: Nigeria plans 2012 Olympic bid Lee Nichols saw this page on BBC Sport Online and thought you should see it. Message: Okay, what are the odds of this happening? (Better than Houston?) *Nigeria plans 2012 Olympic bid* http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/sport2/hi/other_sports/2205083.stm Sports Minister Stephen Akiga recognises the difficulties but insists Nigeria will bid to host the Olympic Games. BBC Daily E-mail Choose the news and sport headlines you want - when you want them, all in one daily e-mail http://www.bbc.co.uk/dailyemail/ Disclaimer: The BBC is not responsible for the content of this e-mail, and anything said in this e-mail does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views. If you don't wish to receive such mails in the future, please e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] making sure you include the following text: I do not want to receive E-mail a friend mailings.
RE: t-and-f: Run to the Top
I agree the HS coach should take a stand, but I also think that this girl probably should not run high school XC/track. What is to be gained? Enjoyment? If you are running to enjoy being on a cross country or track team I could list a whole lot of things more enjoyable. She has goals that she wants to fullfill, let her go after them. I don't see how HS competition is very important when you can compete in open races. She can still run footlocker, USATF, etc. While there seems to be some idea that distance runners who are very serious early burn out, I haven't seen any evidence of it. Surely, they make it to the college ranks and beyond in much higher numbers than other groups. Think of the state tennis and gymnastics would be in if they left it to high school competition to develop talent. Regards, Paul Talbot -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Matt Stohl Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 12:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Run to the Top Any bets on whether this girl will be even be running by the time she graduates high school . . . . The dad should probably let his daughter enjoy the high school CC and track experience, and ease up a bit. I am glad that the CC coach stood up to the dad, the last thing our sport needs is fathers of middle schoolers directing high school cc teams based on their childs own individual needs. Matt Stohl _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
RE: t-and-f: Israeli results
Israel is in many ways a European colony. Most Israelis are descended from European Jews and their cultural/political culture is much closer to Europe than the middle east. It makes sense to think of Israel as a European state despite geography. Of course this is at the root of much of the conflict there. Is Israel a bunch of European colonists or a people returning to their Asian homeland? Please don't answer. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bloomquist, Bret Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 7:14 PM To: 'David Eiger'; T-and-F Mailing list; Peter Matthews; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Israeli results I was wondering during the Euro championships why Israel was part of Europe. Geographically it's in Asia and Jordan plays in the Asian soccer confederation. Is this just because the Middle Eastern countries and Israel don't want to compete against each other for security and political concerns? -Original Message- From: David Eiger [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 2:27 PM To: T-and-F Mailing list; Peter Matthews; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Israeli results Dear friends, Wingate, August 6: Men SP: Shai Shalev 18.44 (best Israeli result since 1994) David Eiger Visit the unofficial Israeli Athletics homepage: http://eiger.tripod.com/
RE: t-and-f: Kenyans
Are any of them from the rift valley? Kenya's distance runners come from a very small population in Kenya. I don't think any of the major ethno-national groups in Kenya has produced any great distance runners. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Randall Northam Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:05 AM To: posting Subject: t-and-f: Kenyans I'm sure there is a logical explanation but I can't think what it is. We were told a while ago on this list that Kenyans would never make sprinters or footballers. Wrong body shape was the expression I remember. But guess what happened in the Commonwealth Games Rugby Sevens today? For those of you across the pond too blinkered to know what rugby is, let me explain. Rugby is a game much like American football except that nowadays everyone on a rugby field is expected to have explosive power. And in Sevens - because there's only seven per team on a full size rugby field (the senior game of rugby is 15-a-side) you have to have power and speed... just like the Kenyans aren't supposed to have. Yet today they beat Samoa one of the favourites, which is a little the USA beating Portugal at football. Nobody believed it. Nor did I because those Kenyans were running really fast and powerfully. I know arguments have been put forward that exceptions are allowed but here were ten of them (three substitutes). They must be Kenyans from West Africa Randall Northam
t-and-f: interestign article on Alan Webb
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59864-2002Jul24.html
RE: t-and-f: Michigan freshman Webb may turn pro...
I think Webb's decision revolves around a question I asked before he went to Michigan. When a coach gets you to 3:53 at 18, why in the world would you want to leave him? Just think if Snell or Coe had gone to a U.S. university at 18. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Contopoulos Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Michigan freshman Webb may turn pro... That seems crazy! After his cross success (atributable to Warhurst I imagine) why would Webb suddenly lose faith in him and his system? Didn't we all hear about the Michigan workout that Webb ran not too long ago? Surely that was with the team and not a Razcko supplied workout. I don't think Razcko has what it takes to make an Olympic medalist. Maybe he does... who knows? But as a fan of track and field in this country, and the mile and 5k in particular, I would hate to see Alan Webb never progress any further because he was afraid to leave Razcko. From: John N. Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: John N. Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Michigan freshman Webb may turn pro... Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:36:58 -0400 The problem is greater than just wanting to peak at the right time. Webb has been practicing on his own, not warming up/down wqith the Michigan team, and in other ways not integrating himself into the Warhurst system. Webb talks (or did throughout much of the spring) to Razcko every night, seemingly undercutting Warhurst as his coach. If Webb turned pro, it is unclear whether Warhurst would let Webb stay in his system, since by turning pro Webb would be trying to get back to his high school coach's system. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Contopoulos Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 4:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Michigan freshman Webb may turn pro... It seems as though Webb wants to get away from Warhurst and move back to Razcko more than getting away from NCAA comp. Can anyone verify this? I would think it would be more like he would want to stay at Michigan, training with the Kevin, Tim, Paul and Nate (could you IMAGINE a better training group of North Americans???) perhaps take classes towards an eventual degree, but not run NCAA comp. In this way he still gets all the benefits of his current situation (classes towards a degree, training group and a great coach) but can concentrate on running the races and peaking at the times that make one a professional. With Nate running 1:47.00 (shutting down the last 100) last night, that makes Tim, Kevin, now Nate and Paul from last year to all succeed under Warhurst within the past 2 years. I don't know what he can do with mediocre talent, but the guy obviously knows how to develop World Class talent. Mike From: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Michigan freshman Webb may turn pro... Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Cook has been a long-time mentor to Raczko. A year ago Raczko and Warhurst had a model relationship, talking constantly about short- and long-term objectives, including the 2004 Olympics. The relationship has deteriorated. That's quite a loaded teaser. Anyone know details? Dan --- Paul Merca [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...see Dick Patrick's article at http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/stories/2002-05-30-webb.htm Paul Merca = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
t-and-f: interviews on-line
HI all, A couple interviews that are interesting at www.illinoisrunner.com. One with Dathan Ritzenheim and one with DII all-american at Western, Chris Siemers. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: time for a summit meeting
Actually, Moscow wouldn't be that bad in this day and age. Great restaurants, nightlife and touristy things plus one of the worlds best (and cheapest) public transportation systems. However, if you don't speak any Russian or at least can't learn to negotiate the cyrillic alphabet for place names it could be rough to get around. But certainly one of the more fun cities to go to for a short time. It's kind of like taking New York and adding in Las Vegas. On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MONACO - Monte Carlo - Following the withdrawal of London as host of the 2005 World Championships in athletics, a number of IAAF member federations/cities have expressed interest in bidding for the World Championships in 2005 by sending a letter of intent. Delegates from Belgium (Brussels), Hungary (Budapest), Finland (Helsinki), Germany (Berlin, Munich and Stuttgart), Italy (Rome) and Russia (Moscow) will visit the IAAF Headquarters can i suggest that we need a new ABM treaty. Anything But Moscow! gh *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Lydiard's prophecy on marathon record
Has anyone seen Super Milers? At the end of it they ask people to predict the WR in the mile in 2000. I think it was Peter Snell (might have been Herb Elliot) who said under 3:45. Filbert Bayi had the best answer though, In the 2000, man will be flying! On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Ed and Dana Parrot wrote: The great thing about sport in general and our sport in particular is that no one knows. Remember the ridiculous statistical analysis that predicted that women's world records would equal men's sometime soon (that was about 8-10 years ago)? While I agree with Tom Derderian that Lydiard's willingness to make a clear, unqualified statement is one of his great attributes, and I certainly would not hold his statement about 2:06 against him, the fact remains that such statements serve no purpose. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 5:36 AM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Lydiard's prophecy on marathon record If you think that comment on the limit of the men's marathon world record is intriguing check out the following quote which appeared in an Epilogue section to 'The Marathon Footrace' book authored by Dr. David Martin and Roger Gynn, published in 1979. In the opinion of Manfred Steffny, coach of the current women's record holder [Christa Vahlensieck] and himself an author on marathon training, the fastest will not be more than about four minutes faster than Vahlensieck's 2:34:47.5. Maybe 16 is about 4. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 8:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Lydiard's prophecy on marathon record In a message dated 12/6/2001 6:34:12 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He would probably assume it's pharmacutically enhanced. On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Y ask: While going through some old issues of TFN, I came across a Bert Nelson Of People and Things column from July 1978. Brother Bert writes: During a recent office visit, (legendary New Zealand coach Arthur) Lydiard opined that 2:06 is the absolute limit for the marathon as it is physiologically impossible to run faster. Wonder what Lydiard (or Bert) thinks of the impossible (2:05:42) Mr. Khannouchi. No, Lydiard would probably say ...give or take 18 seconds... JT *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Lydiard's prophecy on marathon record
He would probably assume it's pharmacutically enhanced. On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Y ask: While going through some old issues of TFN, I came across a Bert Nelson Of People and Things column from July 1978. Brother Bert writes: During a recent office visit, (legendary New Zealand coach Arthur) Lydiard opined that 2:06 is the absolute limit for the marathon as it is physiologically impossible to run faster. Wonder what Lydiard (or Bert) thinks of the impossible (2:05:42) Mr. Khannouchi. Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: former HS runners state competition for NCAA
If you'll allow an estimate for Illinoisan Chris Siemers in the top-25 due to his 5th place finish in the DII nationals (and season 10K cross best of 30:13) Illinois would just edge out Michigan. Siemers was fourth in the Illinois state meet a few years back behind the Torres bros. and Sage and was second to Sage in the 1600 on the track that spring. He was 10th in Foot Locker as a junior. On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, jsully13 wrote: How did former high school runners do at the NCAA Division 1 Cross Country Nationals? Here's how the states fared. Scoring/places is for U.S. runners only and is based on where each guy went to high school. 1. Michigan 84 (D Ritzenhein Colorado 2, R Shay Notre Dame 4, M Wisnieski Michigan 15, T Mobley Notre Dame 27, J Hartman Oregon 36) 2. Illinois 115 (J Torres Colorado 1, D Sage Stanford 5, E Torres Colorado 12, J Young Butler 38, R Breit IL St 59) 3. California 178 (J Spiker Wisconsin 7, T Laird N Ariz 8, F Cabada Arkansas 52, D Romero Air Force 55, R Hall Stanford 56) 4. Washington 220 (J Driscoll Portland 20, J Hedengren BYU 33, K Rolin Portland 47, R Craig Portland 48, J Fayant Washington 72) 5. Oregon 221 (I Dobson Stanford 17, G Robinson Stanford 18, O Franco-Parra Wash St 44, A Carman BYU 68, B Holts Oregon 74) 6. Texas 231 (R Arias SW Texas 30, L Jones BYU 39, B Dawson Texas 45, R Koborsi Georgetown 53, C Esselborn Georgetown 64) 7. Colorado 251 (S Hejny Stanford 31, S Smith Colorado 41, A Berquist Oregon 43, B Michel Colo St 54, D Olchin Colo St 82) 8. Virginia 279 (A Webb Michigan 9, J Horton UC-Santa Barbara 14, C Seaton NC St 25, J Frey William Mary 106, M Maline William Mary 125) 9. Ohio 283 (S Kelly Duke 26, C Estwanik Wake Forest 42, J O'Reilly Ohio St 49, J Mueller Mich St 71, C Reis Cincy 95) 10. New Jersey 330 (S Slattery Colorado 21, J Fasulo Villanova 32, W Kingsbury Virginia 50, N Sisco Wake 101, M Nichol Dartmouth 126) 11. New York 386 12. Minnesota 434 13. No. Carolina 462 14. Pennsylvania 485 15. Indiana 575 16. Arizona 579 No other state had 5 finishers. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
[Michael's thoughts on track and field athletes being lost to other sports below.] In some ways this is an odd conversation because it implies that it is somehow better to be an Olympic athlete in track than it is to be an ordinary hs athlete in baseball. While it certainly may be to all of us, to many it may not be. Try this test on your self (with appologies to Mike Rohl--but this may explain some attitudes): if you thought you could win an Olympic medal in racewalking would you do it? I know many distance runners (and sprinters and field people) who would answer no. Not too many non racewalkers seem to worry about talent being lost to distance running. I know Michael wasn't trying to make an argument about values, just about the effect of other sports on distance running, I just thought it was an interesting way to think of value. Paul I like to think I was lost to Ultimate Fighting Talbot On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Michael Contopoulos wrote: Oleg, I agreed with everything you said until, If basketball didn't steal Paul Tergat, swimming didn't steal Alan Webb and triathlons didn't steal Lance Armstrong, do we really believe that soccer is stealing the next Bill Rodgers or Frank Shorter? Yes, I believe that even though these runners and one biker made it through to another sport, many do not. The old school record holder in my hs was a soccer player... who knows what he could have done if he concentrated solely on running- 4:10 or faster in hs?? I think there are many people, even baseball players (as I myself used to be one), that are lost in other sports, trying to make it on a field when they could be excelling on the track. I can think of at least 2 other athletes in my hs class that could have made great runners... one is currently playing soccer in Ireland and had a stint with the MLS... he probably, had he wanted to, could have gone out there on any given day and run sub 4:20 in hs and mybe sub 1:55... off of no specific track training whatsoever... who knows where he would be today had he spent 4 years in hs concentraing on running and another 4 or 5 in college. The other was a tennis player. His father was a 47 second open 400 guy (on cinder... not bad for a white guy) and this kid was just as quick... only thing was, he could run a mile in gym class (without ever running more than a mile in his life) in like 4:40 and not even breathe. Talk about talent. I wouldn't have been surprised if he could have been a 4:0 low guy and low 1:50 or faster guy in hs... all the makings for a great miler/5k guy in college... and who knows what down the road. The talent is there, and to say other sports aren't taking away from the pool is naive. Yes, I believe that the next Paul Tergat may never want to be a runner and therefore may never become one... as he kicks around a soccer ball or tries to hit 76 homers. Mike _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Rabbit Run or Rabbit at Rest?
We have talked about this on the list many times (check the archives if you are interested). I'd say opion is about 90% in favor of the rabbit retaining the win and anyone who complains is a big baby. A rabbit is hired to run a certain pace to a certain point. I've never heard of a stipulation that the rabbit MUST drop out. On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, John Liccardo wrote: I'd like to hear the lists thoughts on the whole rabbit issue now that another marathon (in Greece) has been won by one: http://www.iaaf.org/news/index.asp?Filename=/news/Articles/getnews.asp?Code=4321 Do the second place guys have a legit beef or are they just being babies about losing? Is having a rabbit finish, who you are told will quit, different than having a mid-race course change which adds a big hill at mile 23? It certainly can interfere with tactics. Or does everyone agree that anyone on the line is a potential finisher and you should treat them that way? I don't know what to think but I'd love to hear some thoughts. John _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: impressive cross performance
Most people don't pay attention to DII so I thought I'd bring the North-Central (held in Omaha) regional results to attention. The course record going in was 31:34. 1AISH, MICHAEL SR WESTERN STATE UNIVERSITY 29:47.2 4:48 2MCRAE, RUBIN JR WESTERN STATE UNIVERSITY 30:12.5 4:52 3SIEMERS, CHRISSO WESTERN STATE UNIVERSITY 30:13.1 4:52 4EBERLY, JOSHUAJR WESTERN STATE UNIVERSITY 30:29.9 4:55 5NAGELKERKE, SCOTT JR WESTERN STATE UNIVERSITY 30:40.2 4:57
RE: t-and-f: NYTimes.com Article: Alan Webb Has Learned to Go the Distance
I think Brian is correct in his assessment. I'd almost be willing to take bets that he does not PR in the mile this summer. I say this not as an insult or intended disrespect but simply because the chances of everything being just right again are small. The benefits of a different training system may not pay off right away, the right race might not be there, injuries can come up, the college season might take a big toll and other factors are all there. I don't think that we should 1) assume Webb will make a jump to sub-3:50/sub 3:33 or 2) be disapointed if he doesn't. The guy has a lot of time ahead of him. If he does amaze us again then great, but I don't think we should hold him up to OG/WC finalist standards yet. Paul On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Mcewen, Brian T wrote: Now, some people think a time closer to 3:48 or even 3:47 is not beyond reason. [snip] Could Webb start to approach these times as soon as next summer AS much as I think Alan Webb is great and doing everything right ... I would give all takers 10:1 odds on him NOT RUNNING 3:47.XX for 1 mile this summer. Moving from the 3:36-38 level he was at in '01 all the way to 3:31 is a lot of improvement, even between 18 and 19 when you are likely to mature a lot. Also, this is a kid who is already very physically mature. Could he go 3:33/3:50y? Sure, that isn't even going out on a limb, just logical progression for him if he was very lucky. But remember: How many times is a college freshman living in Michigan going to get in a race fast enough to hit those times? Unless he hits a few circuit races after NCAA's ... he will likely only have 2-4 chances. He isn't going to be racing 20-25 fast indoor and outdoor races like an open runner could. Improving from 3:53y to 3:47y is a different universe than going from 3:54 to 3:48 in the 1500m, no matter what your age is. /Brian McEwen -Original Message- From: Dan Kaplan [m Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:03 AM To: track list Subject: Re: t-and-f: NYTimes.com Article: Alan Webb Has Learned to Go the Distance I tried sending this a few days ago, but it doesn't seem to have made it through to the list. So, here it goes again, as best as I can piece it together from memory. --- Martin Dixon wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/27/sports/27WEBB.html?ex=1005221221ei=1en=f ec901d09013dffe An item from the article that caught my interest: Webb's 3:53 mile last spring has had track fans drooling over a possible sub-3:50 in 2002. Now, some people think a time closer to 3:48 or even 3:47 is not beyond reason. [snip] Could Webb start to approach these times as soon as next summer? Now, here's a post I made to the list shortly after Webb's record setting mile: Here's something scary; from Runner's World: http://www.runnersworld.com/dailynew/archives/2001/May/010529_webb.html Webb's mile progression: 4:23 (1600 meters), frosh year, 1998; 4:06.94, soph year, 1999; 4:03.33, junior year, 2000; 3:53.43, senior year, 2001 That's nearly identical to a teammate of mine's high school progression, just without the extra 109 meters... 4:28, 4:08, 4:00, 3:54. Taking that comparison one step further, he ran 3:48 his freshman year at college. Could it be...? Anyone else notice a similarity developing...? Dan = http://SpaceFiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Jon Drummond arrested in marijuana bust
Always sad when someone has to resort to dealing drugs to support their track habit. On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Post, Marty wrote: Olympic gold medalist Jon Drummond was arrested Tuesday for investigation of transporting marijuana through Los Angeles International Airport. more at http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/athletics/news/2001/10/23/drummond_arrested _ap/ Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: XC Long-Short Debate
Of course the NCAA all ready does this by holding seperate DI and DII races. The fastest 10k guy in college is NOT a DI runner. On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Keenan Robbins wrote: it is just sick to think about splitting up nationals, cross country is the one and only time when you can decide who the top dog is on that day. One race, one champion. Bringing together the milers and the 10K dudes. The BEST, bar none. It kind of relates to the watering down of high school football. In MN there is 1A-5A plus nine-man. 6 state champions in the same sport. Whoever promotes this plan has no idea what cross country is REALLY about. - Keenan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated Tue, 23 Oct 2001 6:31:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm a big fan of the old adage, If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think the IAAF was wrong to go to two distances, and I think it would be terrible for the NCAA to follow suit. If you want to get more kids involved in the sport, then add Open or JV races...don't fool with the championship format. If we go to long/short, would we ever see a miler like Alan Webb go against a Dathan Ritzenhein in a Championship race? And what about rankings? Would we have polls to determine the leading long and short teams? I don't think so, unless you force runners to stay with either the long or short distance throughout the season. And, most importantly, it would mean twice as many races for me to report(Just kidding on this one). Walt Murphy X-Country X-Press I agree 100% with Walt. Cross is (was) great because everyone runs one race. Who will remember the World Cross 4K champion years from now? Almost nobody. More bad ideas from the NCAA. sideshow *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Hash House runners cause Anthrax panic in CT
Didn't read this article, but here in Boulder someone called up the police thinking a powder hash mark might be anthrax. I hope they don't freak out on the first snowfall... On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: see story at http://www.newstimes.com/cgi-bin/dbs.cgi?db=newsview_records=1id=16459 pretty ridiculous over-reaction, IMHO Jim Gerweck Running Times *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Sprint books
John and others, It's been a long time since I saw them, but I remember watching the Seagrave (published with a co-writer) videos on speed that are availible through track nd field news and being very, impressed with them. For a middle distance runner at least, they were eye openers. It helped tremendously to have a video format. Obviously there are many on this list far more qualified than I and can recommend more esoteric works, but if this guy is at the starting point of a novice, I think these are excellent begining points. They also deal with (are aimed at in part and use as examples) high school athletes for a good portion of the videos. Paul On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, John Lunn wrote: A friend of mine has discovered that his son has some speed. The 14 yr. old is excited and wants to go out for track next year when he gets to high school. The Dad asked me for a list of good books, but none came to mind. Thanks in advance for any help you can give in putting together a bibliography. JL *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: wimpy marathon
Reuters WELLINGTON, New Zealand -- A team of adventure runners is being assembled to compete in the world's first marathon to the South Pole. The 26.2 mile race, to be held in January through snow drifts and across slippery ice fields in freezing temperatures, is being organized by Canadian firm Adventure Network International (ANI). We wanted to offer something to those who had thought they had tried everything in the book, ANI managing director Anne Kershaw said. No one has ever run a marathon to the South Pole. ANI operates a private base on the southern continent and has been taking tourists there for more than 15 years. Runners will have to contend with the South Pole's summer weather, which can still bring temperatures as low as minus-13 degrees. Up to 75 competitors, each paying $25,000, will go through assessments of their health and running ability. Entrants should have run at least four marathons and have experience of mountain running and high-altitude, cold temperature endurance events, the company said. Those accepted for the race will spend a few days acclimatizing to the polar plateau's 9,000-foot altitude at the company's base before beginning the race. Running in the polar snow was similar to running through a muddy plowed field, although contestants would benefit from 24 hours of daylight in the southern summer, ANI said. A fit runner might only be able to make half or less of his or her normal speed, ANI said. Staff will be positioned along the route, from Ellsworth Land to the South Pole, in case of injury or a weather change. Kershaw told Reuters the company was ready for any emergencies on the ice, and should not have to rely on the U.S. government's Amundsen-Scott Base at the South Pole for assistance. The belief is we're self-sufficient -- we have two Twin Otters, a Cessna, and a turbine DC3, we have our own rescue people, we have our own medical backup, she said.
Re: t-and-f: Banned substance????
This article isn't too helpful really: 1) it doesn't say what positives can occur (ie. maybe just ephedrine). 2) the only reference to steroids is that some athletes have blamed supplements. They have to blame something don't they? 3) the popular media has been particularly horrible when it comes to drugs reports. Evidence the hysteria int he media on dieretic supplements after the deaths of a couple college football players this August. On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Michael Contopoulos wrote: I guess the link to the article would be helpful, huh? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/athletics/newsid_1566000/1566845.stm From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Banned substance Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:20:34 -0400 For those that contended that you basically had to be a moron to get caught for something ilegal in your system... read this brief article. This list includes items such as Vitamin's that are unregulated (Mega Man is a popular one). Imagine taking a vitamin and getting caught for a banned substance. I know of someone who this happened to... M _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is partly the more protective parent of today's doing. My kids routinely play games involving running which has them stretching the 'comfort zone' for my wife. We often 'discuss' where the boundaries should be and I find that my boundaries as a child were definitely more expansive than many parents would like them to be today. My feelings are that there are not any more dangerous people, animals or situations than I grew up with in todays world. We just here about them more on the TV, in the paper or on the web. So we end up with play dates and never letting the kids out of sight. Sociologists have found that the desire to protect children has increased greatly in the US over the last 20 years. Furthermore, such things are cyclical and will probably change in the future as it is thought to relate to children's relationships to their parents. There is, of course, no data showing children are at greater risk today. For example, school shootings have been steadily DECREASING over the last 20 years, we just hear about them more. In 1970 if a kid told his or her parents, I'm going to run 100 mile weeks all summer so I can be all-county this fall in cross country. Most parents would have though, Great! My kid wants to work hard at something!. I think today many parents would start to think, Oh that's too much! You should broaden your interests, not focus on one thing!; What if you get hurt?; What will happen if you put in all that work and fail? What would your reaction be to your own child (not as a coach or knowledgable runner, but as a parent)? What would most parents be today?
Re: t-and-f: Puke
On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Robert Hersh wrote: By far, the worst thread we've had in many years. Could we please stop. Let's instead talk about Entine's theories, Okay, so who's more predispositioned to puke, genetically speaking? I think my ancestors will dominate the puking wars. Any contenders? Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Re: Where are we going?
With regards to the steeple specifically though, this statement makes a little more sense simply because it is probably the least competitive of the distance events due to the fact that far fewer people attempt it than do the other events. This means a guy who is a hack in the mile might be at the same talent level as the guys just above hacks in the steeple putting him the class of guys who are respectable. Paul--I wish I had the talent to be a hack. On Mon, 3 Sep 2001, Dan Kaplan wrote: --- Jim McLatchie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was agreed that most of the milers who are running in the 3:55 to 4 min range would have more success competing in the steeple I fail to understand why this line of thinking is so prevalent. A 3:55 - 4:00 miler may not be in the wrong event any more than a 3:45 - 3:50 miler is, they're just slower. Is that so hard to comprehend? If I went out and ran a 5 minute mile, would that mean my best event is the 10k? Of course not. I'd be even worse at it. Comparing times across events is meaningless without taking into account the individual. Dan p.s. Did Jim write that or forward it from someone else? = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Puking ( Was: Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods)
My $0.02 on the pukinghard work issue. In high school I puked after every interval workout and *every* race. In college I found that the times when I got about about 40 miles a week (which actually wasn't that often) I *never* puked after a race or interval. The difference was that I could recover faster. Puking isn't a function of working hard, most of the time it's a function of being out of shape. Paul On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Conway wrote: GH wrote: Next time somebody asks me why we went 30 years between HS sub-4:00 milers I'll cite this line of thinking. gh ps--who said anything about puking POST workout? Unless you'ree from the wussy school of training you puke DURING your workout. I remember a workout one day back in high school where everyone was doing speed work -sprinters, hurdlers, distance runners, jumpers .. Seemed like at any one given moment half the team was kneeling beside the track giving up a portion of their lunch !! Coach remarked that it looked like we were starting a new religion with everyone praying on the side of the track and giving an offering to the gods of track ! Puking used to be a sign that you were giving it everything you had ... And then some !!! Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Michael Contopoulos wrote: I can only go by personal experience. I can honestly say that by the time I was a junior in high school, I knew all the world records, junior world records, etc. With the presence of the internet, I would bet that the best kids on most teams know what is going on internationally. I would bet the majority of D-I college runners do not. They know the big names and the WRs in most events, but that's about it. I would guess less than 5% of collegiate runners could name 3 WJRs. This was true of the team I was on, and was true when I was working with collegiate athletes a few years ago. Like high school, few plan on running after college and they care primarily about where they rank in the conference. I'm sure there's great variation, but I don't think most college runners follow the sport as close as people on this list, and many do not follow it at all. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: The Dude poll - men's XC
Of course this is just Division I. If you look at all of NCAA x-c, Western State would fit in somewhere between 1 and 4 on this list. Their 5th man is a 14:10 5k guy and their 1rst man is the fastest 10k guy in college. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Thexc Dude wrote: Grote is dead. There's a new player in town..and his name is The Dude. NCAA Men's XC poll by The Dude PRESEASON 1. Colorado They scored 94 points last year. They graduate 21st place and add Ritz. At worst, an even swap, if Ritz aclimates to 5000ft OK. Everyone improves just a little and they score 75 points. That should be good enough to win this year. 2. Stanford They have too much talent not to be 2nd. They lose their #1 and #2, but their remaining guys were all fr or so. Add the math major in, plus if Andy Powell can improve on his 251st place showing, they could move up from their 4th place team effort last year. Plus it shouldn't be -200 degrees for the Cali boys. 3. Providence Yes they lose Keith Kelley. But their returners went 11, 16, 45, and 48 in the team scoring last year. To give you an idea how powerful that is, only 4 schools had their 5th man at 50th place or better (in team scoring). They'll find a 5th and be right here, baring injury. 4. Notre Dame The math is simple here too. They were 9th last year at 276 points. Their 5th man scored 133 points. replace that with a single digit (perhaps a #1) with Shay, and even with the same placings for the others, they score around 140. That is easily good for 4th. But if anyone in the top 5 gets hurt, they drop several places. 5. Villanova 181 points last year, and they're all back. Gosh this is easy. 6. Arkansas They lose their #1, #2, and #3. McDonnell always finds a way, and he will here again. Lincoln and Travis will be solid. They will have at least 2 others. I think this year, their problem will be a 5th. I see 70th place or so, which puts them 6th. 7. Wisconsin The Badgers have a team that can win the whole thing.next year. They're going to do some planned redshirting of Wallace and Keller this year. They add Festa (who will place higher than) Tegenkamp, Spiker, and Winkel this year. So their top 5 from last year will only have one of the same faces. 7th is realistic, and top 3 next year, when everyone is in the mix. 8. NC State 11th last year - they bring everyone back, plus Dugan off of redshirt. On paper, that might place them higher, but the magic is gone in Raleigh. Too many rumors about partying and guys blowing off long runs. But they still have 10+ scholarships in distance, and that will give them enough talent for top 10. 9. BYU Top 10 now, then they'll finish 28-31 at NCAA's. That's been the pattern so why mess with it now. I'll just move them down 2 places every week. 10. William and Mary Gerard getting it done with a bunch of no names. Blue collar work ethic at an elitist school. A lot of people don't know that they finished 11th last year and had their whole team fall in the pile up at 800m at NC's. 11. Michigan A lot of people are predicting higher, but the smart money is to put them here. Wisnewski is talented, but burnout is a possibility. All those 130 mile weeks are catching up with him. The guy had maybe two legit races last year. Pilja will either be all-american or on psycho leave. Webb and Brannen's success will depend on how they handle the miles. Who's gonna be their 5th? Remember they were 7th in the conference and district last year. Do fall victim to the mindless hype. Plus look at their schedule. They race just about every weekend from Sept 21 to conference. It's Webb and the Boys - Tour 2001. Coming to a XC course and mall near you. 12. Northern Arizona The most under-rated coach in the US is Ron Mann. They lose 2 of 7, but the 5 that return are not bad at all. I can't see them dropping more than 5 places from their 7th place finish last year. 13. Arizona They lose their #1 to grad and #5 to transfer. They'll replace and hold steady in the standings. 14. Arizona State Let's keep the Arizona schools together. Bizzenuah is back from redshirt. That alone gives them enough points at Griak and Pre-nats and a win over Cal Poly so they don't get blocked. 15. Georgetown They lose 4 of 7 and who knows if Sanchez is healthy. Even if he is, 15th is as good as they can do, just because they have the depth of talent to get it done. 16. Oregon Some people say higher, but those in the know really do know. They have a stud in Hartmann. They have others who can run in Polson and the women's coach's son. But Oregon is doing the smart thing and focusing on a full track team and not just XC. So they've got lesser-than's filling in the remaining spots. With the way other schools are starting to specialize their money in distance, even with Martin's magic, 16th is where they will be
Re: t-and-f: believe it or not
Also, Shorter was 24 when he won Olympic Gold in the marathon correct (and was 5th in the Olympic 10,000m)? He arguably improved little if any after that time (though he did dominate the sport for years at his peak). On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Ed Dana Parrot wrote: Hmm, let's see. 30-year-old Carl Lewis set his first record in the 100, was succceeded by 27-year-old Leroy Burrell who was suceeded by 28-year-old Donovan Bailey. MJ set the 200 record at 28, the 400 record (finally) at 30. Meanwhile, Geb holds the 5K and 10K marks set when he was 25. And Komen before him was not exactly geriatric, either. Even if you don't believe the stated ages, the Africans are clearly having world class success at the distance events well before age 25. I suspect if you look at the top ten in any given year, there won't be that much age difference between sprinters and distance runners any more. The comparison IS made more difficult (actually impossible) by the fact that we can't judge many of the Africans' ages accurately. But the last 15 years of sprinting has seen 25-30 become the peak age. - Ed Parrot *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Kebba Tolbert wrote: I understand what you mean, but to me our goal should be to get athletes to 7:58 or faster at any age. who cares if they're 19, 21, 23, or 25? Again, no one balks when 20-23 yr olds run 44-low, 20.1-20.2, 10.10 or faster. the focus should be on getting our athletes to finals of MAJOR meets with a chance to medal. To underscore Kebba's point, wasn't Steve Lewis 19 when he won Olympic Gold in the 400m? If he was really 30, UCLA sure sneaked one past the NCAA. Paul
Re: t-and-f: Ingest a supplement and urinate a controlled substance,
There are a bunch of legal, over-the-counter steroids that anyone can get very easily. They are classified as pro-hormones, bu they are anabolic steroids. They include the now-infamous androstendione, but also androdiols (4-androstendione) and a few others. Products such as Andro-Spray, Nor-Andro-Spray, and 1-AD by Ergopharm for instance are all legal anabolic steroids. They are legal because they are naturally occuring substances which then cause the body to produce more testosterone. They work and they have all the side effects of regular steroids, so make sure you get your propecia and anti-estrogens with them. They are also all banned by the IOC, NCAA, etc (except MLB). On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How the gentleman from Utah made it easier for kids to buy steroids, speed, and Spanish fly. http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=3054mode=order=0 Andro 9 is andro spiked with an herbal called tribulus terrestris, which essentially overrides the pituitary gland in regulating the body's production of testosterone. Bodybuilders love andro 9 because regular steroids prompt the testicles to stop producing testosterone, creating the dreaded shrinking your grapes to raisins effect. Tribulus terrestris instructs the testicles to keep pumping. When added to andro, the herbal wildly increases the body's supply of testosterone. Yet in the '80s, tribulus terrestris was shown to cause a neurodegenerative condition in sheep called staggering disease, not to mention liver damage and much else. There are no data as yet on what it does to humans, but as Wadler observes, do you really need to know more, given what it does to sheep? If tribulus terrestris was a cure for cancer, I could never get it through the FDA [because of the side effects]. Put it in a supplement and nobody looks at it, he says. Phil *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: power/olympic lifting by throwers?
Does anyone know of the best reported powerlifting or O-lifting records by throwers (or other events)? Do any elite throwers actually compete in the Olympic or power lifts? Paul
Re: t-and-f: Best Middle Distance Coaches in the US
One coach who may be overlooked at times is Gary Weineke at Illinois. he has coached 6 or 7 of the top 800m guys in Big Ten history, including WC and OG finalist Marko Koers and has had a 4 X 880 team set a world best. Additionally, his record with what most would regard as mediocre and unrecruitable high school talent has been very impressive. He routinely takes 1:58-2:01 guys and turns them into 1:50-1:53 guys (or better) and seems to be able to turn pretty much any 1:55 or better guy into a routine scorer in the Big Ten or even into the Big ten Champion (Bobby True for exmample, was a 1:53 hs guy). If you look at what he does year in, year out with mostly in-state guys, many of them walk-ons, his 800m success is truely impressive. Paul On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, David Andersen wrote: Who are the best active middle distance (800,1500) coaches in the US and why? *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Altitude correction... .
Perhaps the confusion over the Edmonton altitude has been a mistaken assumption that the effects of altitude are linear when, in fact, they are not. At 5500 ft, the 1500 is about 4-6s slower for MOST people. At 2100 ft someone might concluded then, that it should be 1-2s slower. This is not the case however as there is no real effect at 2100 ft. It probably starts to have an effect for some individuals around 3000ft, but it doesn't seem to be an across-the-board effect until over 4000. Paul On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Wes Cook wrote: What's with the concern over altitude at Edmonton? 2100 feet or so? Recognized need for altitude adjustments according to the NCAA rulebook begin at 3100. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: altitude (was: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
You could, of course, use O2 during training either with a max or a superoxegenated training room on a treadmill. This might allow one to do workouts previously not possible. It would be legal too. On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Mcewen, Brian T wrote: You can partially compensate for this by flooding the system with oxygen (i.e. breathing pure O2 through a mask), but overall the problem is not one of availability of oxygen per se, but of getting it into the blood with any efficiency. Completely off the subject: About 10 years ago I dated an aerobics instructor and at her club they sold Oxygen canisters (tiny ones) that people would breathe the pure O2 in and supposedly supersaturate there bloodstream with O2 and give them a rush of energy for awhile. Seemed hedonistic and stupid to me. Anyway, once the WR's went 2 seconds faster than Cram, 15 seconds faster than Moorcroft and 35 seconds faster than Mamede at 3:27, 12:44 and 26:38 ... I started thinking about all the crazy ways someone could crack the formerly solid WR's ... Theoretically, you could warm-up well, breathe concentrated O2 for 60 seconds or so and then whip out to the start line and be ready to race ... Unless the saturation effect lasts longer than I think it does, it would never work though. The runners are usually held at the start area long enough in all races that the advantage would wear off. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, lehane wrote: Many of the perfromancing enhancing pharmacological innovations have unacceptable health risks. Arguably, so does competing clean at an elite level. It isn't healthy to break bones or tear muscles and ligaments. It isn't healthy to neglact friends and family in pursuit of training. It isn't healthy to become anorexic or suffer from psycholgical problems brought on fromt he stress of competing. When you are pushing your body to its limits you'ce already crossed over the lien of godo health. I'm not so sure these are any better than the risks associated with many banned drugs used under a docor's supervision. I suggest that the use of drugs has resulted in a great drop of interest in our sport because if one suspects the champion of winning on the virtue of illegal substances, what is there to cheer about in his or her win? Isn't this suspicion due to various governing bodies catching people from time to time? When was the last time anyone really thought about drug use in major sports? It's certainly higher than in track and field but people don't seem to care. Mark McGuire was caught using an anabolic steroid during his 70 home run season. It wasn't banned by baseball so no one cared much and in fact, it led to sales of the product in question goign through the roof. More strange is that many (if not most) of the things that are on the banned subsatnce list are things that are availible over the ocunter to non-athletes. If I can go and buy some steroids legally in the U.S., why can't athletes? In many countries, most steroids are legal without a prescription, yet athletes in those countries are banned from taking substances that are legal for their non-sporting countrymen. I agree that the rationale for banning substances is based on health concerns rather than ergogenic ones, but certainly under a doctor's supervision, many of them could be used without any significant side effects. Thsi is why Juan Antonio Samaranch argued for legalizing EPO and reviewing other drugs (hmm... a coincidence he is Spanish?). Paul
RE: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
I am in no way in favor of drug use .. However, I am definitely against those things which hurt the sport .. A: Want to stop things from hurting the sport? Start with the athletes who cheat. Stop them from cheating ... and no more black eye for the sport. If it is difficult, that doesn't mean you quit. This made me stop and think. Why is it that a bunch of European aristocrats get to choose what is and what is not cheating? Who has input into the banned substances list? Do the athletes have any input at all? I wonder what the list would look like if there were an athletes union (which there probably should be for other reaosns)? Paul
Re: t-and-f: More Yegorva
On Sat, 18 Aug 2001, Tom Jimenez wrote: While I have serious doubts as to her innocence, I am wondering about the due process of the whole thing. I am assuming that there is a reason behind the procedure of requiring both a urine and blood test (some sort of safe guard I would guess). I think the reason for both tests is so it can be said that athletes are tested for EPO while assuring that a positive result is extremely unlikely. Since the urine test will only catch very recent use, it will only come back positive for the careless athlete and the blood test results are not intended to be made public if the urine is negative. Someone screwed that up with Yegorova I assume. Paul
RE: t-and-f: Richard Chelimo, former 10,000m record holder, dead at34
They were half-brothers. Different fathers. On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Uri Goldbourt, PhD wrote: Also, Richard was the brother of Ismael Kirui, the 1993 (beating Gebresilassie in a courageous front run and a very early break) and 1995 5000m world champion. They had different family names, presumably because they were raised by different grandparents (?). UG - -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Post, Marty Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 5:46 PM To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) Subject: t-and-f: Richard Chelimo, former 10,000m record holder, dead at 34 from a brain tumor more at http://www.sportserver.com/track_field/story/62352p-897850c.html Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Grote where are you?
Half-way through August and no talk yet of the fall NCAA cross season. I'm starting to miss the good old days Paul
Re: t-and-f: chinese women
If the training reports were anywhere close to correct, no one has trained anywhere near as hard as they did either. Certainly the drugs allow for greater trainging, but I also suspect that few, if any, women have even tried to train with the volume or intensity that they did. How many people (men included) have the mental toughness to do 20-mile hard runs on the track, hitting specific 400m splits the whole way? And then workout again in the afternoon... It could be that the Chinese runners we saw where the few who could survive and respond to the training. But then again, no one thought 800m guys could run weekly 22-milers over hilly terrain at a hard effort either before Lydiard and Snell came along. BTW, should not the Chinese National Games have been this year or are they next year? Since those are more improtant than the Olympics to the Chinese we should see another round of incredible times. Paul On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Michael Contopoulos wrote: Why haven't the performances of the Chinese women been duplicated yet? Of course they were on drugs, but so are plenty of women now (or maybe not). I mean, they obliterated the record books. An epo'd Yegorova is still 20 seconds back in the 3k (no disrespect to those who think she is innocent). I mean, there must have been more to their times than just drugs, no? I swear to God, maybe, like Mt Sac, the tracks in Beijing and Shanghai are short. Maybe Junxia Wang ran a lap short for her 10k record? M _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: RE: built like tanks
Some things have a greater effect on the physical appearance of women than men. On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Speaking of built like tanks- I've noticed the trend for some time, but at Edmonton it was particularly distinct when I compared the physiques of women 800 meter runners to men 800 meter runners. You guessed it- the women are SIGNIFICANTLY more 'buffed' than the men, for the same event. A bunch of muscle women. Graf and Mutola are typical. So why do women feel it necessary to bulk up for a middle distance race, and the men don't? Do women need it to offset a lower center of gravity than the men? I'm confused. If men 800 meter runners undertook the endeavour to get to the same relative upper body muscle proportions as the women, would it help or hinder their race times? RT *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Drug cheats aren't funny Garry.
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Geoff Pietsch wrote: TFN is a great magazine, but it has a lousy record over-all where the drug issue is concerned. snip out-of-competition testing) to pursue the cheats, we need powerful voices like TFN to never let go on this issue. So TFNews should actively engage in negative marketing for the sport? Acting as a powerful voice would mean creating greater publicity bout drugs in track and field resulting in more fans and sponsors being driven away. Ideally I'd like a drug free sport, but I don't think it is realistic anymore. In fact, I think that drug testing may serve only to create an uneven playing field as some athletes have access to certain ways of cheating that others do not. Furthermore, there is a lot of leeway for cheating within the testing limits, for example, you can raise your testosterone level to just under what becomes illegal and you pass the tests. In the last few years I've switched positions from being very anti-drug to believing it's time for Tf to follow the lead of the major pro sports in regards to drugs. When drug use was widespread and open in the 1960's (at least as far as steroids were concerened), the sport was popular and no one looks back on the pre-testing era with disgust do they? Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: televising distance races - and car races?
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want to really spice things up, do scoring by lap. For a 5K, for example, you could award 5-3-1 points for 1st through 3rd at the end of every lap, maybe bumping that up to 10-8-6-4-2-1 for the milepost laps, and 20-16-14-12-10-etc at the finish line. Some timer chips in the shoes, and a nifty computer program should be able to keep a real-time leaderboard running on a stadium scoreboard. That'll generate some lap by lap excitement! Actually, this is one of the best ideas I've ever heard. It would allow for real audience involvement in the whole race and would appeal to Americans raised on scoring-during-competiton sports. The technology certainly exists, someone should try it. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: Drug cheats aren't funny Garry.
Yes, I was thinking primarily of U.S. throwers who later openly admitted they used steroids (which were legal until the 70s--or at least not banned by athletic organizations). There are those on this list who can relate stories of American and Soviet athletes discussing their cycles in teh 70s and 80s. It was never a one sided issue. Take note of the heat Bannister got when he suggested testing for steroids prompting angry British athletes to complain that they would no longer be able to compete equally. Unless you can fund monthly blood testing for every elite athlete you are not going to get rid of drugs (and even then you couldn't). I hate the drug use in the sport, but I've grown to hate the negative publicity that track gets more and I've become resigned to the fact that we can't get rid of it. I finally decided that I would enjoy trcak for competition and not worry about who is or is not using (though I admit I root a little harder for a few guys I am sure are not using anything). Paul On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Dan Kaplan wrote: Aren't we mixing eras? As I read Paul's question, it applies to the 50's and 60's, not the spotty testing during the East German machine of the 70's and 80's. Dan From: P.F.Talbot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] When drug use was widespread and open in the 1960's (at least as far as steroids were concerned), the sport was popular and no one looks back on the pre-testing era with disgust do they? --- Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I look at a picture of Kratochvilova churning home in 1:53 ... looking every bit like a stocky Czech man with a short perm ... and am disgusted ... no, maybe revolted is a better word. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Andre Sammartino wrote: Jon, I don't understand where you are getting these numbers from... each time you reappear on this list to boost book sales you undermine your credentials substanitally by citing WRONG numbers. Where is the 800m evidence you cite? my check of Peter Larsson's top 100 performances all-time produces this list of non-africans 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe 11 1.42,33Sebastian Coe 18 1.42,58Vebjørn Rodal 39 1.42,88Steve Cram 40 1.42,90André Bucher 42 1.42,92André Bucher 43 1.42,95Vebjørn Rodal 45 1.42,97Peter Elliott 54 1.43,07Sebastian Coe 60 1.43,12André Bucher 64 1.43,17Yuriy Borzakovskiy 67 1.43,19Steve Cram 72 1.43,22Steve Cram 75 1.43,25Vebjørn Rodal 84 1.43,31André Bucher 91 1.43,34André Bucher 98 1.43,38Sebastian Coe 98 1.43,38Rich Kenah http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm That's 18, not 8! And if you in fact meant all time performers, then the top 100 at Hanserik Pettersson's site includes these lot (i may have a couple wrong here through not knowing who/what they are/were (ugly terminology, but we are playing this game)): 2 1.41.73 Sebastian Coe 5 1.42.58 Vebjörn Rodal 12 1.42.88 Steve Cram 13 1.42.90 André Bucher 14 1.42.97 Peter Elliott 22 1.43.17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy 31 1.43.38 Richard Kenah 37 1.43.56 Rob Druppers 45 1.43.65 Willi Wülbeck 49 1.43.74 Andrea Longo 52 1.43.7h Marcello Fiasconaro 53 1.43.84 Olaf Beyer 54 1.43.84 Martin Steele 55 1.43.86 Ivo Van Damme 57 1.43.88 Donato Sabia 58 1.43.88 Tom McKean 59 1.43.90 Einars Tupuritis 62 1.43.91 Johan Botha 63 1.43.92 John Marshall 65 1.43.92 Andrea Benvenuti 67 1.43.95 Philippe Collard 68 1.43.95 Giuseppe D'Urso 71 1.43.98 David Sharpe 72 1.43.98 Bram Som 73 1.43.9h José Marajo 75 1.44.01 Marko Koers 76 1.44.03 Peter Braun 79 1.44.07 Lucijano Susanj 80 1.44.09 Steve Ovett 81 1.44.10 Vladimir Graudyn 82 1.44.10 Ari Suhonen 84 1.44.14 Lee Jin-il 88 1.44.22 Nils Schumann 92 1.44.25 Vasiliy Matveyev 94 1.44.38 Ryszard Ostrowski 96 1.44.3h+ Peter George Snell 97 1.44.3hy-.6 Jim Ryun 98 1.44.3h Dave Wottle http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m04.htm That's 38... Please explain your sources... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:02:57 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about why Brits will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of US, UK and Northern European stock that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete, particularly runners from Africa, most of Asia, and South America. Now that the field is more level, the best talent comes to the top. Again, check the lists of top times and runners... Those so-called great times of years ago pale in comparison RELATIVE to the population numbers AND overall. In the 800 metres, for instance, 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry. Was Coe a great runner. Of course. And we will always have great runners. But he was no where near the consistent level of a Kipketer or Cruz. ... *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: BBC WC wesite
Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the BBC website for the WC looks pretty decent: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/in_depth/2001/world_athletics/default.stm Regards, Paul
Re: t-and-f: aerobic vs. anaerobic
In their discussion of this topic Coe and Martin cite the 800 as 55% aerobic, 45% anaerobic. I don't see how this has much to do with whether or not a race is a kickers race. At the elite level, the deciding factor is often basic speed at every distance. Regards, Paul Talbot On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Pat Crandall wrote: In the discussion of the 800m 'kickers' actually being the ones who slow down the least, where is the dividing line (for the majority) between aerobic and anaerobic races. I'm betting that a 1200 would still be a kicker's race so it must be right around 1000m. Any physiological evidence to answer this? *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Borzakovskiy out of Worlds
On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Jorma Kurry wrote: Hasn't something like this happened with Borzakovskiy before? Also, is he coached by a woman? The name of his coach is almost certainly feminine, unless my Russian skills have totally left me, yet it refers to the coach as he. Jorma -eva as a suffix is feminine and Yekaterina is Katherine in Russian so yes, Podkopeyeva is a woman. She might just be the designated national team coach though and not Borzakovskiy's personal coach. - Original Message - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/athletics/newsid_1443000/1443749.stm clipped However, coach Yekaterina Podkopayeva said that he would be talking to Borzakovsky about his decision. Yuriy is giving a great present to his rivals, I can not understand why he is running from the World Championships, said Podkopayeva. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: t-and-f: Webb and Hall at Nationals
Didn't Mark Dekker make the 800 team when she was 14 but was too young to compete? On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, Highfill, Floyd wrote: Ahhh - but does anyone (besides me) know when the last time a Junior High athlete not only qualified for nationals but actually made an Olympic track and field team and competed in the Olympics that year? Floyd Highfill -Original Message- From: Ben Hall [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 1:01 PM To: Michael Contopoulos; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: t-and-f: Webb and Hall at Nationals I think this is a fairly complete list. Pulled from looking at results on the TFNews website. Muna Lee (100) Erica Whipple (100) Angel Perkins (400) Monique Henderson (400) Sheena Johnson (400H) Amy Linnen (PV) Staci Manuel (PV) Samantha Shepard (PV) Briona Reynolds (HT) Katy Polansky (JT) Kendra Wecker (JT) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Contopoulos Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 2:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Webb and Hall at Nationals You're forgetting Monique Henderson in the 400. So is Hall in or not? From: Jack Pfeifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jack Pfeifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Webb and Hall at Nationals Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:33:56 -0400 Actually, there were 2 in the jav and 2 in the vault, plus 1 in the 100 (muna lee, who made the semis) Conway, Not sure what you mean by If so when was the last time 2 high schoolers qualified to run at nationals in the same year ?? But last year there were at least three female competitors who were high schoolers. One in the 400, one in the javelin, and one in the pole vault. --Ben -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Conway Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 1:03 PM To: T-and-F@Lists. Uoregon. Edu Subject: t-and-f: Webb and Hall at Nationals Is Ryan Hall going to be able to run the 1500 at the US Championships ?? I realize he was just short of the actual qualifying mark, but are there provisions that would allow him to run ?? If so when was the last time 2 high schoolers qualified to run at nationals in the same year ?? And given the results of races so far this season am I alone in thinking that Webb has a very good chance of making the WC team ?? Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: half-joking thought about Webb
The basic issue is two-fold and doesn't really concern Webb: 1) When and why should an athlete leave his/her coach (and also training environs, etc). 2) Why the assumption that the collegiate route is the only legitimate one for athletic development? As far as Webb goes, one thing he could capitalize on right now as opposed to in 3 or 4 years is the marketing value he has as an under-20 world class miler. How much would the European GP meet directors pay to get the young phenom in their races? I don't know, maybe not much, but I would think potentially quite a bit (sadly I think he is marketable in part because he would be a great white hope). Throw a nice shoe contract on top of that (with the shoe compnay garuanteeing your tuition when you do want to go) and it coould be a pretty sweet deal. When I was leaving high school though, I couldn't imagine not going to college. I'd bet Webb hasn't thought of it and it would seem a bizzare idea if someone suggested it to him so I don't think we are dealing with it as a possibility which is why I originally posed the question hypothetically and why we should focus on the two questions above. Paul On Wed, 30 May 2001, Martin J. Dixon wrote: I realize that this is all hypothetical but why couldn't he get a 4 year deal with a shoe company that stipulates that he will be attending school and that he controls when and where he can compete? Somebody would have to offer it to him obviously and I don't know whether a shoe company would. Most of the big meets take place when he is out of school. There have been successful athletes out there who have had jobs(Steve Jones comes to mind) and I don't know about the rest of you but I didn't realize just how easy I had it when I went to post secondary school. 8 months a year with a lot of time off-nice gig if you can get it. I don't know how Webb is scholastically but it strikes me that a shoe company could get some mileage out of this kind of association. Maybe there are some issues to do with stepping on the toes of the NCAA but I don't know. T F is unique compared to other big name sports because a large part of its' competitive schedule does not take place during the school year like football, basketball, hockey etc. Regards, Martin *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Boulder Boulder Top Results
Added notes on the Bolder Boulder: USATF provided performance based funds for the race so the total prize for third place was $21,000 for men and for women so each American took home $7,000 for their part in the team placing. That bonus, time bonuses and individual USATF bonuses put Drosin's winnings at over $21,000 for the race. The team places were the highest ever for the U.S. men and women who both ran in official national uniforms. Drosin's performance was amazing. There were probably 30,000 people in the stands watching on giant telivisions in addition to the thousands on the course. When she entered the stadium she grabbed an American flag and was treated to a standing ovation that lasted several minutes and was defening. Had the women's team consisted of the original line-up of Drosin, Coleen DeReuk, and Libbie Hickman there might have been a sweep, but Milena Glusac and Sarah Tolland both did great jobs stepping in. Tolland did so on very short notice I believe. The men's team ran admirably. Before the race I thought that 5th place would have been a great performance but all three of them stepped up. Clint Well's 7th place finish in that field was amazing. He seems to be improving very rapidly. The men's citizen winner, Martin Weiss, is a DII all-american for the Colorado School of Mines. Martin has been rapidly improving, knocking over 20 seconds off his 5,000 time since coming to Colorado this year. He recently finished fourth in the DII national 5,000 running 14:02 in the final the day after prelims. Paul In the men's race, the On Tue, 29 May 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Monday, May 28, 2001 At Boulder, Colo. Men 1. James Koskei, Kenya, 29:00, $4,500. 2. Joseph Kimani, Kenya, 29:29, $3,500. 3. Jose Castillo, Peru, 29:31, $2,250. 4. Elarbi Khattabi, Morocco, 29:37, $1,750. 5. Dominic Kuriu, Kenya, 29:38, $1,500. 6. Tekeste Kebede, Ethiopia, 29:39, $1,350. 7. Clint Wells, Boulder, Colo., 29:51, $1,250. 8. Diego Colorado, Colombia, 29:57, $1,150. 9. Simon Mpholo, South Africa, 30:02, $800. 10. Armando Quintanilla, Mexico, 30:04, $700. Men's Team 1. Kenya (1-2-5), 8 points, $15,000. 2. Peru (3-11-15), 29, $9,000. 3. United States (7-14-18), 39, $6,000. (7. Clint Wells, Boulder, Colo., 29:51; 8. Diego Colorado, Colombia, 29:57; 16. Peter De La Cerda, Alamosa, Colo., 30:24) 4. Morocco (4-10-29), 43, $4,500. Elite Women 1. Deena Drossin, Alamosa, Colo., 33:25, $4,500. 2. Ejagayou Dibaba, Ethiopia, 33:42, $2,750. 3. Ludmila Petrova, Russia, 33:54, $2,250. 4. Svetlana Zakharova, Russia, 34:06, $1,500. 5. Sally Barsosio, Kenya, 34:17, $1,250. 6. Jane Ngotho, Kenya, 34:29, $1,100. 7. Jane Omoro, Kenya, 34:29, $1,000. 8. Nora Leticia Rocha, Mexico, 34:31, $400. 9. Eyerusalem Kuma, Ethiopia, 34:35, $300. 10. Milena Glusac, San Diego, 34:40, $200. Women's Team 1. Kenya (4-5-6), 15 points, $15,000. 2. Russia (2-3-11), 16, $9,000. 3. United States (1-8-21), 30, $6,000. (1. Deena Drossin, Alamosa, Colo., 33:25; 10. Milena Glusac, San Diego, 34:40; 23. Sarah Toland, Boulder, Colo., 35:52) *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: half-joking thought about Webb...
...why should he go to college and run? He has a coach who has already gotten him to 3:53 as an 18 year-old. He's already of international caliber. He could certainly get Nike or someone to offer to pay his tuition whenever he does decide to go to school in exchange for sponsorship. He could probably make some living wages (or perhaps much, much beter) through appearence fees while he has marketing value as a young sensation. He could be a full-time runner while in his prime developing years. I'm not saying the shouldn't go to Michigan next year, but I raise the question because it is a peculiarity of the U.S. system. Would any other kid in the world leave his coach at 18 after running 3:53 (except maybe to be part of nationally funded training camps)? Would Coe have done what he did had he left his Dad at 18? Is Borzakovsky missing anything by bypassing a US scholarship? Would it happen anywhere but in the U.S./Canada? Just some questions to ponder and in many ways this is more a hypothetical question than about Webb in particular. It has become an unquestioned norm for kids to use the college system that I wonder if any Americans ever think about trying an alternate route. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Webb #19 all-time US
Tony Waldrop still has the NCAA indoor mile record at 3:55. He is now a professor (I think of ex phys but I'm not positive about that) at the University of Illinois (at least he was there a few years ago). In an article in the local paper there about 8 years ago or so he described his senior year of track and the pressure he was under. At the indoor ACC meet his senior year he ran with a 100+ degree fever just because thousands of people had come to see him run. People then made a point of coming up to him and telling him how disapointed they were in him not to set a record. By the time he finished school he was sick of it, had other goals and never ran another step again. In the article he said he didn't follow track the slightest bit. Sad, but if he didn't want to keep doing it, good for him to have the balls and just quit despite what those around him wanted. Paul On Tue, 29 May 2001, Ed Dana Parrot wrote: Looking at the list, I saw two names that I don't recall hearing before - my youth is showing, I suspect. What were the careers of these two guys like? 10. Richie Harris 3:51.39 15. Tony Waldrop 3:53.2 - Ed Parrot *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: my Pre Classic comments
On Sun, 27 May 2001, Kebba Tolbert wrote: Alan Webb ran a great race. He broke a great record. I was cheering for him as I watched the race. And was excited watching his last 1/4. However, let's not proclaim that US distance running is back or that he is the next great anything. Considering he is one of the 15 fastest Americans at the distance EVER I don't think the qualifer next needs to be included. I think the real question for Webb right now is how do you leave a coach who got you to 3:53 as a high schooler? Michigan should be a good fit though considering Sullivan's success. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: my Pre Classic comments
On Sun, 27 May 2001, Randy Treadway wrote: Perhaps the ability to get a decent shot at U.S. national HS records has more to do with what state your high school is located in, rather than an individual's readiness to compete at that level. Thus a record like Webb's 3:53 might not really represent a totally national record if it cannot be realistically approached in HS-only competition, since many states don't allow anything BUT HS-only, from a practical standpoint. Do you think anyone who cares more about staying HS eligible than running a 3:53 actually has a chance to break a record? I can see staying out of loyalty to my coach if a team title were at stake (which I think Ritzenheim is doing), but that's it. I agree the rules are ridiculous, but I think winning a state title when you could have a shot at a HS national record is just as ridiculous. To some Kenyan 17 and 18-year olds who run world class times, going to college instead of hitting the GP circut would be ridiculous also. Everyone has choices... Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: t-and-f: Bengt Saltin (and others) on muscle fiber type
The %slow twitch vs. %fast twitch is interesting in another way as well: it shows how important some other factors must be (though they are still probably genetically determined for the large part). For example, what sort of muscle composition would explain Said Aouita who ranked #1 in the world at both 800m and 10,000m. Martin and Coe have a short discussion on this very subject in (Better) Training for Distance Runners, probably the best read there is on distance running. The variablity of %slow twitch fibers among elite distance runners has a huge range, from about 50%-90%, however, the ST fibers are much larger than the FT and take up much more of the area biopsied than the actual % of ST fibers. Regards, Paul On Fri, 25 May 2001, alan tobin wrote: Has nothing to do with finally seeing the light. Muscule fiber is just one of those things, like height, that you can not change. You can train the fibers to act more slow or fast twitch, but they are still what they are. So in that sense, yes runners be it long distance or sprinters are born. But, I think one would know right off where they fall in the fast/slow fiber debate and unless they love finishing last they will not persue running that is opposite what their bodies were made for. I don't think anyone would argue that someone with 90% fast twitch can become a good long distance runner. That simply can not happen. The same could be said about someone who doesn't have the slightest genetic gift when it comes to running. What I try to address is the grey area between top of the line runners (World/Olympic medalists) and the Gallowalkers who really have no hope when it comes to competitive running. What does it take to be competitive with the world elite? When you are on top (World/Olympic medalists) you need it all: genetics, training, luck, etc. But to win a few good races: Boston, Falmouth, European Track, etc I think you can get by without a serious genetic gift. It's only when you are racing THE VERY BEST that you lose out, because the very best have it all. I've seen very fast Kenyans, and I've seen very mediocre Kenyans. Not all Kenyans are born to be world record holders. There are just more good Kenyans, more great Kenyans, and more mediocre Kenyans for a number of reasons...one being genetics. That still doesn't mean a smaller group of Japanese, Americans, ect can not stand out amongst the Kenyans. It just means that surrounding the 10 or 20 non-Kenyans will be 100 Kenyans. It's just one of those rules of sports, like Chinese table tennis players or Romanian gymnasts. Doesn't mean one should throw in the towel either. One can still, with just a little genetic talent, become a very fast and very good runner and win a lot of top level races. Just when it comes to the very top of the mountain (Olympics, Worlds) they will most likely be beaten by those who have it all: genetics, training, and luck. Don't remember what the point of this post was. I guess I agree with Jon to an extent. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Re: Fast twitch/slow twitch question?
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Elliott Oti wrote: Haile Gebreselassie has run the 1500m in 3.32 and the 10km in 26.31. I recall reading an interview three or four years ago with a local Dutch rag in which he said his best 100m time was around 11.2 or 11.3 seconds. This would be a very decent sprint time for the world's top female sprinters. As far as total muscle mass goes, Gebreselassie weighs about 55kg, which means that he is roughly about the same size as a top female sprinter. If his muscles are slow-twitch then they're pretty competitive in terms of power/weight against fast-twitch. This is a good point which is that we cannot peg an event to a specific fast to slow twitch muscle ratio. Said Auoita ranked #1 in the world at both 800m and at 10,000m. Late in his career Coe had planned on moving up to the 5,000 where he thought he could run between 13:00 and 13:15 (injuries forced him back to the 1500). I don't know about Gebresellasie but both Coe and Aouita (who says he based a lot of his trainging on Coe's) were distance guys (Coe was a 1500-3000m guy in high school) who worked out heavily with weights (aouita is reportedly said to have lifted every day) to increase their speed. There is certainly a lot we don't know about the mix of speed an endurance. Given the relatively little improvement in the 800 over the last 20 years it doesn't seem too many people are figuring it out. Regards, Paul
t-and-f: Kennedy in Stanford 10k
Can someone fill us in on the DNF?
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
On Thu, 3 May 2001, Elliott Oti wrote: About nine years ago I ran against Koers in a 400m which he won in 47.2 - 47.3. This despite the fact that Koers considers himself to be primarily a 1500m man. Nine years ago I was a teammate of Marko's and I saw him run mid 48s in an open though he could get below 48 in a relay. His webpage doesn't have his 400m PR so I'll take you word on it. I wonder how many 800m guys can run 7:46 for 3000? Marko also qualified for the NCAA cross country nationals as an individual which means he certainly could break 30:00 in a 10,000 as well. I think you do not give 800m runners enough credit. Based on personal observation I would say the following times correspond roughly: 800m in 1. 55 = 400m in 50.0 - 52.0 800m in 1. 50 = 400m in 48.0 - 50.0 800m in 1.45 = 400m in 45.5 - 47.0 I don't have it in front of me and may be remembering wrong but I think there is discussion of this in Run With the Best in which the basic argument is that it is a sliding scale. The 400/800 types have to be MUCH faster over 400m to achieve the same 800m time as a 800/1500 type with a slower 400m time. So two guys both running 1:45 could have significant differences in their 400m times. For example, there are a host of 4:00 milers who can only run 49-50s for 400m but can run 1:47 in the 800 whereas no 400m runner with a 49-50s PR could do the same, but would need to be in the 45-47.low range. Regards, Paul
RE: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Juantorena aside, if you look at the 800 as an event, the 800/1500m types come out on top of the 400/800m types. Other than Juanto there hasn't been anyone who has had a shot at making an Olympic or World Championship final in both the 400 and 800 in the last 30 years. There are those who could make both however (Coe, Cram, Ovett, Auotia, Koers, Morceli and a few others). Koers is an intersting case. He's not a top tier guy (3:33.0, 1:44.0) but was 6th in the 96 games and has at least made the WC semi-final if not final. There are a bunch of guys out there with similar marks. BTW, check out Juantorena's description of his base training in Sandrock's Running with the Legends. You might be shocked. Regards, Paul On Thu, 3 May 2001, Bruce Glikin wrote: There is quite a large gap between the 400 meter profile and the 800 meter profile. Period. -- Jon Entine Which profile would you pigeonhole Alberto Juantorena? Question mark. Or exclamation point? *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
On Wed, 2 May 2001, Ed Dana Parrot wrote: Mark Everett certainly had the potential based on his times. Jearl Miles-Clark and Anna Quirot certainly did. How many times did Kipketer run an elite open 400m during his peak 2 years? How many times have the other 800 contenders run elite open 400's? Actually, Kipketer ran a 400 open a few years ago and ran 48-something. Certainly not his best, but it shows he doesn't have the leg speed to run the 400. He can though break 4:00 in the mile. I think if the best 800 guys ran the 400 we would see a few 45s, a bunch of 46s and a whole lot of 47s. Many cannot break 48. For instance Marko Koers who I've seen run the 400 open several times hasn't broken 48 that I know of. I would guess he might hit 47.8 at the very best. There may be a couple of exceptions like Mark Everett. As an aside, Juantorena ran 3:42 for the 1500 indicating he had some endurance. 3:45 is probably close to the slow end for any sub-1:45 800m guy. Do the Michael-Johnson-could-be-the-greatest-800m-guy-of-all-time crowd really think he is capable of such a time at 1500? If he's not he's probably also not capable of a world-class 800. Paul
RE: t-and-f: Follow the money was- Flat earth Creationism
So why so many great soccer players from Western Africa? On Tue, 1 May 2001, Oleg Shpyrko wrote: RE: Soccer. Soccer is much more technical than distance running. You need access to good coaching, facilities, etc., whereas with distance running the overall approach is much more simple. Additionally - in my opinion soccer is much more competitive sport throughout the world. Soccer is #1 sport in the world, and in almost every country - in Europe, South America, or even Asia and Africa - A LOT more money thrown into soccer compared to Kenya. Kenya is 17th poorest country in the world, so even if ALL of their resources go into soccer, it still cannot be even compared to resources that go into sport in countries like France, Italy or Brazil. Additionally - soccer is very different because you need a long tradition of being good at soccer, unlike distance running, you cannot become great overnight, even if you throw a lot of money into it. Even after soccer spread out to asia, africa and US, european and south american countries continue to dominate soccer on the world scene. Great example is US, which after World Cup on their soil in 1994 started spending a lot more to become competitive on the world scene, and which probably spends tens or even thousands times what a tiny country like Croatia is spending, but what they lack is tradition - something a lot of European and South American countries have plenty of. Additionally - geographically European and South American countries are at advantage because of well-established league systems/tradings, UEFA championships etc. This is something countries like USA, Canada, Kenya etc. lack in trying to become good at soccer on international level. In other words - while DC United plays New England Revolution, Manchester United is playing Dynamo Kiev or Real Madrid. See the difference? You cannot make the same arguments about soccer, which requires a much more substantial combination of factors to have a successful team. It's a much more complex situation, and being #1 sport in the country (which is true for most of the world) doesn't automatically mean there will be great soccer players from that country. Oleg. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of P.F.Talbot Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 12:52 AM To: Oleg Shpyrko Cc: Track list Subject: RE: t-and-f: Follow the money was- Flat earth Creationism Soccer in Kenya is more popular than running, has more particpants than running, and offers potential financial rewards far greater than running There aren't any great Kenyan soccer players that I know of. On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Oleg Shpyrko wrote: RE: Economical reasons. Would there be more american champions if winning a major marathon by a US runner was worth $10, 20 million? Kenyan GDP is $270 per capita. Even relatively low-key 10K like recent James Joyce Ramble offers $1000 for a win, plus appearance fees. Peanuts money for average american, 4 years or so worth of typical wage in Kenya. Winning Boston, Chicago, New York - each would put a kenyan winner into Kenyan Bill Gates range. For an american - something one could earn working 9 to 5 for a year or two. In many ways, I still can't understand what motivated Rodgers, Flemming, Meyer, Hodge and others 20 years ago when all the road races offered was asphalt and adrenaline. If you are still not convinced about economical factor - look at Russia and countries of Eastern Block. I am no anthropologist (not even a journalist!), but I strongly suspect one would be hard-pressed to identify genetic difference between, say, polish or ukrainian or romanian and american, brittish or german. The melting pot the Europe has been for so many centuries - who could tell? Maybe russians have more asian genes mixed up, but for the most part they should be much closer to anglo-saxons than kenyans. Culturally there might not be that many key differences either. Russians lead slightly more active lifestyle, but their diet consists of greasy foods as well (try living through long cold winters on rice and water), rich in fats and proteins. Total populations are about the same. So why in a single week of Boston, London and Rotterdam marathons, a dozen or so Russian/Polish/Romanian women break 2:30 - how many US women broke 2:30 in the past 5 years? The reasons are mostly economical, IMPHO. Russia is no Kenya, but a few grand will buy you a lot more in Russia than in US. Plus some of those marathoners are basically unemployed in Russia, or have to work odd jobs to put some bread on the table (and I mean that literally). So there you have - Pozdnyakova and Kuznetsov cleaning up every race in sight, running 4, 5 marathons a year, plus another dozen or two of smaller races. For them, the times and titles don't mean much unless there's a price tag associated
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money was- Flat earth Creationism
Randall and others, An interesting book to look at is non other than list member John Bale's excellent work (with Joe Sang), Kenyan Running which looks a lot at the colonial heritage of sport in Kenya and the types of sport that were introduced. Remember that kenya was not simply a resource periphery (though it was primarilly that) but had a large white settler population as well (though not on the scale of S. Africa or Zimbabwe). Interestingly, the British thought the Masai would be the best distance runners in Kenya but this did not turn out to be the case. John, why haven't you been weighing in on this debate? My own perspective is to agree with Entine's thesis that certain population groups are statistically likely to over-produce certain types of athletes for reasons of genetics. However, I also agree with those who say that ultimately this doesn't really matter. However, when so much discussion has centered in recent years on the success of kenyan running it would be foolish to ignore genetics as a possible contributor. I encourage everyone to read John Bale's book however. An interesting perspective and it is great geography. Regards, Paul On Tue, 1 May 2001, Randall Northam wrote: on 1/5/01 3:49 PM, P.F.Talbot at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So why so many great soccer players from Western Africa? Yes there are several great players from western Africa but let me pose another question. Your argument suggests that there should be a steady stream of great association football players coming from the US. After all the game has been reasonably well established in the US for many years. It's played a lot at youth level and the rewards are highish - top European players can earn around $80,000 a week. Doesn't compare with the top US based sports but heck it's a living and if you find yourself good at a sport you rarely play originally for money. Most of American blacks come from western Africa but there isn't one great American player, black or white... never has been either. Most of those who play in Europe are white (i.e. not from western Africa) and they are not of the highest standard. The answer has to be because of culture and tradition and possibily facilities because while I don't know I can imagine there are not many football pitches in the inner US cities. Surely it can't be because American blacks have the wrong body shape!! My geography is not very good but Mozambique is in eastern Africa (admitedly a long way from Kenya and someone will tell me that they have the west African gene pool down there) and because it was colonized by Portugual the country produced many great players, notably Eusebio one of the greatest of all-time strikers. At the risk of being shot down in flames I think one of the reasons soccer did not take off in Kenya is that the British who colonised it treated it like one big safari park and didn't bother about sport unless it could be shot at or ridden. Those people didn't like football. In Nigeria and Ghana the emphasis seems to have been more on ripping the countries off as much as possible and that meant middle class and working class Brits were sent there and they introduced football. Much as they did in South America, although other European countries ripped off Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina. Randall Northam When they said sit down, I stood up - Bruce Springsteen (my religious slogan) *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: Follow the money was- Flat earth Creationism
Soccer in Kenya is more popular than running, has more particpants than running, and offers potential financial rewards far greater than running There aren't any great Kenyan soccer players that I know of. On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Oleg Shpyrko wrote: RE: Economical reasons. Would there be more american champions if winning a major marathon by a US runner was worth $10, 20 million? Kenyan GDP is $270 per capita. Even relatively low-key 10K like recent James Joyce Ramble offers $1000 for a win, plus appearance fees. Peanuts money for average american, 4 years or so worth of typical wage in Kenya. Winning Boston, Chicago, New York - each would put a kenyan winner into Kenyan Bill Gates range. For an american - something one could earn working 9 to 5 for a year or two. In many ways, I still can't understand what motivated Rodgers, Flemming, Meyer, Hodge and others 20 years ago when all the road races offered was asphalt and adrenaline. If you are still not convinced about economical factor - look at Russia and countries of Eastern Block. I am no anthropologist (not even a journalist!), but I strongly suspect one would be hard-pressed to identify genetic difference between, say, polish or ukrainian or romanian and american, brittish or german. The melting pot the Europe has been for so many centuries - who could tell? Maybe russians have more asian genes mixed up, but for the most part they should be much closer to anglo-saxons than kenyans. Culturally there might not be that many key differences either. Russians lead slightly more active lifestyle, but their diet consists of greasy foods as well (try living through long cold winters on rice and water), rich in fats and proteins. Total populations are about the same. So why in a single week of Boston, London and Rotterdam marathons, a dozen or so Russian/Polish/Romanian women break 2:30 - how many US women broke 2:30 in the past 5 years? The reasons are mostly economical, IMPHO. Russia is no Kenya, but a few grand will buy you a lot more in Russia than in US. Plus some of those marathoners are basically unemployed in Russia, or have to work odd jobs to put some bread on the table (and I mean that literally). So there you have - Pozdnyakova and Kuznetsov cleaning up every race in sight, running 4, 5 marathons a year, plus another dozen or two of smaller races. For them, the times and titles don't mean much unless there's a price tag associated with it. Economically, for some of those women, for example, it makes more sense to race 4-5 marathons a year in high 2:30ies-low 2:40ies (which would probably still win most of them), rather than train for a single sub-2:30 one. I do believe, that even leaving the cultural differences between US and Kenya aside (Ninetendos, McDonalds, School Buses etc.), if running was as big as NBA or NFL in terms of yearly earnings, contracts, etc. offered to top US runners, US would dominate distance running like they do basketball. Oleg yet another 'flat-earth creationist'? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tom Derderian Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Follow the money was- Flat earth Creationism What if, Jon, 20 years from now Africans lose their depth and say the Japanese begin to dominate...then what? Will your findings still hold true? What would the scientists of the early 20th century say about the Finnish runners now? They dominated so well, but then fell off the earth. Well, in MY book. Boston Marathon history. I tell about the reactions to American Indian runners, Canadian runners, Korean runners, Finnish runners, Japanese, and even Americans. Always there was the opinions that they had special advantages. The if only lament is very human. It is interesting to see how things shift over 100 years. But no group had the domination of the Kenyans at Boston. But no group had the big bucks of John Hancock pulling them out of their home countries. So let's get away from the cultural, the genetic, and maybe discuss the economic angle here particularly that of sponsors and agents. Stuff that wasn't around in the olden days. The last chapter of the second edition is titled Secrets and Agents. Soon I have to write a third edition. What do guys think of that? $$$ but how exactly is the money driving the sport? How do you make money, sell products and services. Follow the money? Where does it come from and where does it go? Tom Derderian *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: national class American marathoners
Weren't there well over 100 qualifiers (maybe close to 200?) for the 1984 Olympic trials? I've always held that the main difference is milage. Not too many people are hitting 100+ mile weeks in college and high school any more so the post-collegians have a much rougher transition to the marathon than they once did (and of course far fewer try). On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Post, Marty wrote: At the 1983 Boston Marathon, 71 American men broke 2:20. On a single day. Last year, a total of 24 American men broke 2:20. For 366 days.(And the guy at the top was born and spent his early training years in Morocco.) Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Top American in 5000 at Mt SAC
Since he's DII he might not get noticed, but Mike Hubbard's 13:37 at Mt. SAC, placing ahead of Abdirahamn, Jorge Torres, Matt Downin and Robert Gary should put him up there as one of the top 5,000m guys. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Top American in 5000 at Mt SAC
Oops, it is Jason not Mike, my fault! On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, MountainAir SportsManagement wrote: So much is he unnoticed that his name is quoted wrong... Jason Hubbard instead of Mike? R. Perkins MASM --- "P.F.Talbot" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since he's DII he might not get noticed, but Mike Hubbard's 13:37 at Mt. SAC, placing ahead of Abdirahamn, Jorge Torres, Matt Downin and Robert Gary should put him up there as one of the top 5,000m guys. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: More on NCAA news
On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Ed Grant wrote: Not content with already reducing much of the college scene, indoors and out, to mark-chasing, they now insure that most conference meets will either be held much too early or will lose their top competitors in many events. I really don't think we need to worry about the conference meets. Coaches keep their jobs based on their conference performance not their NCAA performance (in all but a few cases). This alone should ensure that the conference meets stay competitive with the top people competing. Regards, Paul Talbot *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Purpose of NCAA track and field (was Re: t-and-f: Another Viewon NCAA Regionals
On Thu, 12 Apr 2001, Conway Hill wrote: Because as I see it at present, if this is the case then collegiate track is basically a sport for the collegiately elite with little opportunity for "development" of athletes ... Recruiting means finding those athletes that can come in and "score" NCAA points within a year of entering the program ... Which means little development going on in the sport outside of high school ... Or am I reading this wrong ??? Well, the vast majority of NCAA track and field athletes never make it to the NCAA meet. What do you think all those athletes are doing? BTW, when I was at Illinois, the Illinois-Indiana dual (sometimes a tri with Purdue) and the Illinois-Southern Illinois dual meets were both very important to the coaching staff. Paul
Re: t-and-f: Fw: direction of running
Didn't they run clockwise at Oxford during Bannister's day? On Sat, 7 Apr 2001, phalford wrote: I received this message today. I vaguely remember hearing an answer to this once but can't recall what it was. Anyone know? - Original Message - From: John Williams To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 6:13 PM Subject: direction of running My friends and I have had a long standing discussion on "Why do athletes run around the track in an anti-clockwise direction"? I've never seen them run clockwise (north or south hemisphere) *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: Fw: direction of running
No Bannister didn't run clockwise in his sub-4:00. But I think that Oxford's team had a tradition of running clockwise. On Sat, 7 Apr 2001, Oleg Shpyrko wrote: Didn't they run clockwise at Oxford during Bannister's day? I don't think so. At least the picture of Bannister breaking the tape showed him running left-to-right, not right-to-left. But I was told that ancient drawings of greek Olympics showed they ran in both directions. Here's an old post to this list giving a few possible reasons for counter-clock direction: http://wso.williams.edu/listserv/tfselect/Aug1598-Sep198/msg00472.html (see text below). Frankly, I don't think Coriolis effect is significant enough to explain this. I could believe right-handed (and right-legged) explanation, though. When people get lost in the woods they circle counter-clockwise due to the right leg being slightly stronger than left leg. So counter-clockwise direction could be a little more natural to most humans. Oleg. On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:08:25 -0400, you wrote: AFAIK, track races have always been run in the counterclockwise direction. Does anyone know the reason for this, historical or otherwise? (I posted this question on the internet newsgroup rec.running. So far, the only response comes from Steven Isham, who speculates (facetiously) that it is due to the fact that runners race "against the clock.") Terry R. McConnell Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150 [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://barnyard.syr.edu/~tmc This question came up on this list a couple of years ago, and as I recall, there were various answers offered, including these: 1. It was the direction the ancient Greeks did it, and we've stuck with tradition. 2. When running around a curve, the arm on the inside of the curve must swing less than the arm on the outside of the curve. Therefore, it helps to have a stronger right arm if you run around curves counter-clockwise. Since there are more right-handed people in the world than left-handed, running counter-clockwise caters to the natural strength of the majority of people. 3. Goes naturally with the coreolis effect- the direction water swirls when it drains being the usual indicator. But that means that in the southern hemisphere, they should be running clockwise :-). Of course, our Australian friends claimed that THEY are the ones who are consistent with the coreolis effect, and it's us northern hemispherers who should be running clockwise around a track. 4. When looking at runners sprinting down the homestretch from left to right (to arrive at a finish line which nobody wants at the end of a curve), it is more natural for spectators to want to see people running from left to right, just like most Western nations read their written language from the beginning to the end of a row of words. 5. The horses on carousels always go counter-clockwise, for the same reason (a bit of trivia I never knew). 6. Horse races (at least in the U.S.) are always counter-clockwise. 7. Same for dog races (i.e. greyhounds). 8. Military parades always go counter-clockwise when they 'pass in review' (centuries-old tradition). That's where the command 'eyes right!' comes from. 9. And last, but not least,: the IAAF rulebook says that is the direction races must be run. These are the ones I remember (some real laughers), but I think there were others, too. R.T. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: Sanchez - New US Junior 5000 record?
Isn't Chapa's HS 10,000 record 28:32? I seriously doubt anyone in high school will touch that for a very long time if ever. On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Mcewen, Brian T wrote: 13:38.39 this past weekend, breaks the US Junior mark of 13:39.6 set by Steve Prefontaine in 1970? Prefontaine's 5k Junior record stood for over 30 years .. much longer than any of his other HS or American Records. probably because the 5k is run more rarely as an 18-19 year old ... and also because 13:39 is rare air for a 19 year old. Anyone think of a WR, AJR, or HSR that has lasted longer? Ryun's 3:51 comes to mind, Lindgren has a few marks (8:40.0i, 13:44.0) that have lasted even longer. But, it seems that the records (all types-W, A, HS) have been completely overhauled in everything under 1-mile, since that era. The 1968 43.86A (Lee Evans?), and Butch Reynolds' 43.29 lasted close to the longest (THE longest?), and Coe's 1:41.73 made it 16 yrs 27 days ... those being much more impressive because they were WR's ... -Brian McEwen P.S. If the HS Mile and 2-mile records are not broken this season (and the mile is a LOOONG SHOT) will it be another 20-35 years before they are? I think it might be. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: better than Lindgren? (was: Ranking HS distance greats
On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Mcewen, Brian T wrote: Shorter: * 5th in Olympic 10k, and a couple medals that should have been GOLDS * 2 ARs in 10k With regards to Shorter I think we have to consider, because he was a marathoner, other important races. Fukuoka was the de facto world championship in the marathon for awhile and Shorter won it, I think, four times. If you include the OG marathons, Shorter came out on top of the world five (and arguably 6) times. That is dominantion that is unlikely to be replicated by anyone. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Creating Good Distance runners in the US ... North andSouth
On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Mcewen, Brian T wrote: VirginLebanon?, ILL 27:29 Okay take Virgin off your list. Lebanon is in Southern Illinois, not too far from St. Louis. I don't think anyone really thinks of St. Louis as a "northern" city. Certainly a lot closer to the climate of Memphis than Minneapolis. Even in central Illinois where I grew up we considered southern Illinois part of the deep south. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: World Indoor Championships - non-drug related post!
On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, Ed Dana Parrot wrote: Are there any theories out there about why the former Soviet republics are no longer as dominant as they once were? Not that 19'6 is bad by any stretch, but really it's the Eastern block that's gotten worse - we haven't gotten that much better. Perhaps the collapse of the Soviet system has finally started to have a real effect now that all the athletes who were identified at a young age are now too old to compete. The economies of most of the former Soviet Republics are only a fraction of the size they were in 1989. Governments have little money for sport resulting in an exodus of both athletes and coaches. Funds for training and youth selection programs has been cut back severely. Furthermore many sports agencies have attracted the attention of criminal elements who can use them as laundering agencies and recruiting grounds. We will probably see continued deterioration of athletics in formerly Soviet countries for a few years. Other than the Baltics, Russia is the only one to show any real growth since the collapse of communism and they still have many years until they reach the economy they had under socialist control. Paul Talbot
t-and-f: junior race
Can anyone tell us about this guy who won? I'm not familiar with him. Thanks, Paul Event 5 Men's 14-19 8,000 Meter Run Junior Results by Order of Finish - Sunday 02/18/01 RANK COMP# ATHLETE NAME AGE TEAMAVG MILETIME SCORE --- 1 370 Tegenkamp, Matt19 Unattached 4:5124:09.00 2 345 Ritzenhein, Dathan 18 Unattached 4:5124:11.10 3 221 Dobson, Ian19 Stanford Universit 4:5524:29.00 4 366 Spiker, Josh 18 Unattached 4:5824:43.60 5 250 Cabada, Fernando 18 Unattached 4:5924:47.20 6 315 Maline, Matthew18 Unattached 5:0225:03.10
Re: t-and-f: here's a wild thought...
Since he could jog and make the junior team he could always race whichever senior race is on the other day. On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated Wed, 14 Feb 2001 8:42:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes [about my query on Ritzenhein running in the Seniors sted of the Juniors this weekend): Good thought, but why pass up a sure berth on a national team and a trip to Ireland (where he'll get a chance to run against the best Juniors in the world)? Uh, because he'll finish closer to the U.S. Seniors than he will to the Kenyan Juniors? I don't know if that statement is supposed to be followed with a :-) or a :-( gh *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Rit'z chances ... NO PENN OR STANFORD
The guy really doesn't have anything to prove in Michgan high school meets does he? Why not just tell the MHSAA to go screw itself and run whatever meets he wants against good competition as an unattached athlete? I would sure as hell rather run at Stanford, Mt SAC and Penn than in a high school state meet. Sure he has plenty of time to develop, but why not run in the best races you can at every point in a career. Arguably pounding out a hard race on your own is worse for you than tucking in behind runners of equal ability so ditching the HS meets for the big meets might even mean less of a chance for burnout. Plus that experience could pay dividends down the road. I can believe he'll learn much running in HS races. Paul PS. Since I have a colorado.edu address and my comments involve a CU recruit let me point out that I am not affiliated with the CU track/cross teams, just a fan who happens to be in grad school here. On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Mcewen, Brian T wrote: Unfortunately, Michigan HS rules state that the tracksters can only compete in Invites in a contiguous state (Which probably is only WI, OH, IN). Hence, why Rockford has always gone to the Mansfield Mehock Relays in the early season. Last year they went to a "big" meet in Dayton in the early season and Ritz went 8:41.10m. They can compete anywhere during indoor season (because we don't have an MHSAA certified indoor season). Once the HS outdoor season is over, MI runners can go wherever they want. It is too bad, but track season will have started by the time of the Stanford meet and Penn Relays ... putting the kibosh on those two for Ritz. He truly believed that he was capable of 13:47 LAST YEAR ( he wanted to qualify for the Trials with a sub-13:47). I believe he went through 3200 in 8:52 in his only 5000m of last year (finishing in 14:13). He is clearly 20 seconds improved over 5k in XC compared to 1999. So I am guessing he has a good shot at a time in the 13:40's ... probably HIGH 13:40's. The rub is that he will likely only take one shot at a 5k this summer. Things would have to go perfect for him to break 13:44. His coach also has him run FOUR events EVERY meet. Making for more than 50 races OUTDOORS by the time State Meet is over. As hard as Lindgren was on himself, he probably had it easier than THIS in terms of being ready to run hard when necessary. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Everything you need to know is on the Discovery channel
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, malmo wrote: I think we're arguing the same point. A lion (or any preditor, for that matter) stretches for JUST A MOMENT -- no more. I remember watchin a National Geographic special one time where the fastest lion and the fastest gazelle both pulled up going around a tree. Man was that dissapointing! I heard that the advertisers were really pissed, not to mention the bookies. Humans, on the other hand, stretch for no reason at all, and use all manner of apparatus (rubber tubes, incline boards, hand towels, etc.) to do so. And the stretching itself OFTEN causes injury, or, at least aggravates and slows recovery. I DID NOT READ THAT IN A BOOK. I don't even have a "Jim Beams Running Formula" book, however, I've seen it happen HUNDREDS of times. malmo From: "malmo" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Stop the damn stretching!!! Ever see a lion stretch before it kills something? malmo As someone who grew up in Africa, spent a lot of time around animals, and has a lot of pets, here's a salient bit of data: mammals stretch a lot. Lions may not stretch directly before a kill (that would be counterproductive to the main aim: kill the critter before it sees you or escapes), but they stretch a lot in general. Watch a bunch of adult lions resting: they lie down, doze, get up, stretch a little, walk around a little, lie down again, doze again, ad nauseum. It takes a little looking out for, but once you notice it you start seeing it everywhere and it becomes amazing how many different animal species do this. My rabbits stretch, usually after a period of inactivity: they yawn, stretching first the front legs, and then the back legs (quite a funny sight, actually, as they drag themselves a few steps forwards with stretched hind legs). My dogs stretch in much the same way too: front legs first, chest to the ground and ass high in the air, and then the hind legs, with short scrapes backwards. My cats do it different: they tend to stretch their legs and arch their backs at the same time (clawing away furiously, too, as I know from painful experience). Even the free range chicken we used to own did similar things: they didn't stretch, but after periods of sitting around they would get up, flap their wings a bit, strut around a bit, peck a bit, and go back to sitting down. Keeping the motor oiled and humming, as it were. In case you think that animals aren't neccessarily flexible, let me inform you that all of the said pets (except the chickens) are perfectly able to lick their own butt-holes (which they do regularly, and with obvious pleasure); few humans can claim the same. Which is a pity, because if the reaction of my dog is anything to go by, it must be a fun thing. Now I don't know if by analogy the way most athletes stretch is neccessarily beneficial. The animals I observe rarely stretch for more than a few seconds at a time, and they do that by preference during sedentary pauses, not during activity. The credo seems to be "fairly often, and briefly". In contrast athletes stretch just prior to, and after, intense physical activity, for relatively prolonged periods. Also, athletes tend to stretch isolated muscles one at a time while animals do whole-body stretches. Then again, athletes train; most animals don't. Disclaimer: I am not an avid stretcher, a fact which leaves me feeling guilty now and then. Elliott Oti *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Khannouchi out of London
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Adam G Beaver wrote: Even if American audiences know that he is an adopted foreigner, there is nothing like seeing the home colours come first to rejuvenate interest in a sport. Khannouchi's times and places at London may be little more than a temporary cover for poor American showings, but if he were to win the World Championships outright he might inspire a new generation of long distance runners. If this sort of thinking has anything to do with his withdrawal from London, then it is impressive to see someone selflessly carrying the torch for his country. If this happens, Khanoucci may also make enough endorsment money to cover any London losses. He is a great story for the media and his WC marathon race will get extensive coverage. This translates into name and face recognition which translates into endorsments and higher appearence fees. he wont be a Tiger Woods by any means but a WC win and the ensuing publicity could be financially much more rewarding than a London win and WC 2nd. I'm not questioning his patriotism or goodwill, only pointing out that he has much to gain as well. Hoping he wins it, Paul
Re: t-and-f: Alan Webb misses 1000m record by 0.28
This reminds me of a similar odd double. In 1993, Marko Koers ran the 600 and the 3000 at the indoor Big Ten meet. He won the 600 and was 4th or 5th in the 3000 (which he ran in a body suit!). On Sat, 27 Jan 2001, Gary Liguori wrote: Mike I was at that NY state meet competing int he 1600m the year Irish pulled that double. I asked him the night before why such an odd double, and he simply said "why not?". He was awesome to watch, and it seems in the duece he was falling off the pace late, but his incredible speed brought him close at the finish. Gary Liguori --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Netters Thanks John Dye for this Webb's performance fits in behind the record of 2:23.85c (George Kersh MS 1987) and 2:242.1d (Miles Irish NY 1983). Interesting we were just talking about the top guys in H.S. being out performed later by other athletes. In that thread i talked about Miles Irish and here he comes up again. I remember seeing him set that 1000m mark and then late that season he set the then National Mark at 1:20.7 for 600m on a 10 lap to the mile tack by the way.. Later he went to the indoor State meet in the 600 and 3200. he was dodging Mike Starr. Miles won the 600 then was (I think here) 3rd in the 3200 behind Charles Marsella for sure. The guy who won the 1000 that year - Tom Day of Bishop Gibbons in 2:30. something, a state meet record at the time. Last time I heard from Day he was in Houston Tx were he was in school - why he called me in the middle of a hurricane I'll never know :) __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Where did the following high school milers go to college?
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Dave Johnson wrote: On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:34:24 -0800, Buck Jones wrote: I expect many on this list know that Lee LaBadie went to Ohio State (running under 4:00 for the mile, BTW). I hope nobody on this list knows this, because LaBadie actually went to Illinois. Though LaBadie did coach at Ohio State. His sub-4:00 at Illinois was the first in the Big Ten. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Taking this thread to logical extreme
It seems to me that most good 400H can run a decent 800m. I don't think you can say the same for the 300H. It may be that you can get by in the 300H with sprint speed, but when you increase the distance by 1/3 some endurance comes into play and some of those that were very good 300H may find that the 400H is just too long. It seems to me that the transition is almost akin to moving from 200m to 400m. Many will be good at both, but some will never see the same success in the longer event. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Truth in advertising?
All of my non-running, non-track watching friends know who Michael Johnson is and most know who Maurice Green is. None could name a distance runner. If you asked them what they would want to watch on TV, distance or sprints, they would choose sprints. I think that EVERYBODY understands the 100m. It is seen as who is the fastest in the world. That is a concept that everyone can understand, appreciate and marvel at. People don't have the same appreciation for distance because while sprinting is about an absolute maximium of physical performance, distance running is about a sustained maxium of physical performance, a concept that is not as easily grasped, understood or appreciated by those that have not attempted it. Getting back to marketing. If I wanted to sell a random product I'd use a sprinter not a distance runner. If I wanted to sell distance shoes to joggers though, I'd rather have a well known marathoner (which in the U.S. probably still means Frank Shorter or Bill Rodgers, especially considering the dmeographics of the American jogger.) Paul On Fri, 22 Dec 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Conway says that the general populace loves distance running, and sideshow says they could give a rats ass about the distance races, even citing the 9900 + 100 meter sprint we all witnessed in Sydney. I have heard throughout the years that the general populace does not relate to the sprints, but can identify with the distance races because everybody jogs. This has been the shoe company credo for decades. So which opinion is true? Should the advertising be geared towards identity of action, or identity of name and face? What is the truth? DGS The G.O.A.T. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: sprinting distance runners...
I think that it would actually help most of them. It's pretty hard to hurt a distance runner with a 400m. (Unless they do no speed work in practice). Paul On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Listers, Just fielding a few opinions from the list and here's the question: Can you hurt (performance) a distance runner by periodically running them in the 400m? For example, at the HS level, I noticed that top notch distance runners would sometime run legs on the 4x400m relay. I just wondered if you did that too often, would it take anything away from their performance, rhythm, etc. Larry A. Morgan, Sr. Elizabeth Heat TC *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Interval Training
On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Mats [iso-8859-1] Åkerlind wrote: I assume that the training session mentioned in the post represents a newer type of interval training than Gerschler's. This since the WR in the late 1930's was just under 3:50 (the 3:47.8 by Jack Lovelock stood between 1936 and 1941). Anyone knows any details of Gerschler's training back then? Gordon Piries autobiography details a lot about Gerschler's method as Pirie worked with Gerschler for some time. I believe that it is available on the web at a site called something like "The Gordon Pirie Resource Center." If you do a web search for Gordon Pirie I am sure you will find it. Pirie's book is worth reading by the way. He pretty much makes the toughest trainers of today look lazy (as would Igloi's athletes). Regards, Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Footlocker Finalists Performances'
I agree. Kennedy, William, Goucher and Torres all failed to break 15:00 on that course. He's over 30 seconds up on all of them! Paul On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Netters I have to tell you that kid from Michigan that won the mid west has got to be incredible. He ran 14:35 on a muddy day on the parkside cousre, one of the hardest 5k courses around. Mike Dewitt said that thing ran slow and he and Lucian Rosa both agreed that would have been a sub 14:00 on the track. In my 10 years there the only time I ever saw anyone else do better than that was when the USATF Senior X-C was hosted there. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Who invented interval training?
Much of this depends on how you define "interval training." People were using short, repetitive runs in training in the 1800s. The early Fins trained using what many would today call intervals. The real credit though probably has to go to Gerschler who trained Harbig to a 1:46 800m in the 1930s and later coached Gordon Pirie. He certainly influence Zatopek and Igloi. Paul On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Y ask Y: For a little Sunday piece I'm writing on Zatopek, I'm interested in knowing who is credited with "inventing" interval training for distance runners -- a la 100x400 that EZ used to run. (Fred Wilt's "How They Train" in 1973 sez: "According to virtually all sources, it was Emil Zatopek who first employed intensive interval training." ) But I'm unsure how other experts view the situation. Was Igloi's system developed concurrently with Zatopek's? Did Gosta Olander in Sweden pioneer this form of training (as Wilt also hints)? Any help would be appreciated. Ken Stone *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Who invented interval training?
On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Igloi's system developed concurrently with Zatopek's? Did Gosta Olander in Sweden pioneer this form of training (as Wilt also hints)? Gosta Holmer was the father of fartlek training, not interval training. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Turkey of the year?
Hi all, Check out http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com for their Turkey of the year poll where John Rocker is maintaining a narrow lead over the U.S. men's 4 X 100m Olympic relay squad. Will USATF ask for a recount? Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: NCAA cross: congrats Colorado
Congrats on the CU women for their national championship. While Grgas-Wheeler was expected to win, the rest of the team really came through. The men's second place was not too shabby either. They ran a great race and it took an amazing performance by Arkansas to beat them (I have to admit they surprised the hell out of me and I am quite impressed). Because it is important to some, note that the CU men have the distinction of having the top American runner in the field and top team composed of American citizens. I mention this not to start up another useless thread on foreigners in the NCAA (which I support) but just to point it out. Again, congratulations to Mark Wetmore and the CU teams for their wonderful performances. Paul Talbot
Re: t-and-f: New Virus = HOAX!
This is a hoax. If you don't believe me from the silly description of the virus in the warning, you can go to: http://www.Vmyths.com/hoax.cfm?id=98page=3 Regards, Paul On Tue, 7 Nov 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you receive an email titled: "Lets watch TV" DO NOT OPEN IT. It will erase everything on your hard drive. This information was announced yesterday morning from IBM; AOL states that "KALI" is a very dangerous virus, much worse than "Melissa," and that there Is NO remedy for it at this time. Some very sick individual has succeeded in using the reformat function from Norton Utilities causing it to completely erase all documents on the hard drive. It has been designed to work with Netscape Navigator and Microsoft Internet Explorer. It destroys Macintosh and IBM compatible computers. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it. Pass this warning along to EVERYONE in your address book and please share it with all your online friends ASAP so that this threat may be stopped. Please practice cautionary measures and tell anyone that may have access to your computer. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Temperature and performance
On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are they going to have a sliding scale based on barometric pressure as well? Wasn't it '95 when a huge high pressure system moved in and basically made the conditions in Boulder equal to a sea-level race? I believe Josephat Machuka, who was on fire at the time anyway, ran under 28, almost unheard of at altitude (I know John Cheruiyot Korir ran 27:48 on the track this year at the Kenyan Champs). sideshow The high pressure system theory was quickly debunked when it first came up in '95. It simply wouldn't have an effective change on the altitude to make a significant impact. The '95 race took place in perfect conditions. It was cool and overcast (unlike the normal conditions of high heat and sun). Machuka's race was awesome to see, he went out in 4:18 (slightly downhill) and had the race won. At the time I questioned whether or not I had just witness what was effectively a world record given the altitude. I think though that Machuka just hit a perfect race on a perfect day. It also seems that the Kenyans don't give up as much at altitude as those not raised at altitude. While a 10k at altitude is worth probably 60 seconds for a runner who is aclimated to altitude, for someone who was born and spent his or her whole life at altitude it seems to be less, maybe 35-45 seconds. This seems to be true for Americans born at altitude as well. It is likely more than just where you were born/grew up, but some people seem to have an advantage at altitude. I don't know if it is the case, but I'm guessing that if you look at the BIg 12 results (from Boulder) you would find an inordinate amount of placings that were outside the normal order of finish on a team. Regards, Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Buying drugs and income
On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Shawn Devereaux wrote: A guy that lived in my college dorm was from El Paso said that he, along with some other of his high school football teammates would cross the border, go the pharmacy and buy steroids for what amounted to $1 or less a dose, take them in Mexico, then drive home. It took only about 30 minutes and there was absolutely no way anybody could have found out. And for not much more, you could have a Mexican doctor administer them so you don't have to do it yourself and you have some basic medical supervision of your program. (how meaningful this is I don't know) Shawn's point is interesting in another respect. His tale involves high school athletes. I've seen estimates (based on polling results) which puts the steroid use among US high school football players as high as 30%. It shouldn't be too sruprising then if this behavior finds its way to track and field which has a decent level of cross participation with football at the high school level. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping
On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Richard McCann wrote: You only make my point here. There are virtually NO well-organized, effective institutions in those countries (several of my former ag econ classmates have worked on development projects in Kenya and other African nations). To create the wave of performances at such young ages, before these athletes have traveled to Europe where they might gain access to EPO, would require a concerted effort by a well-organized institution. Unless Nike or Fila is making such an investment, (and I suspect shareholders would question such expenditures, however hidden, in these countries, even if as "market development;" and why not spend similar money in other countries?), there are no other institutions ready and able. I tend to agree that it is unlikely Kenyan teenagers are doping en mass, but let us not forget that KAAA is one of the most corupt organizations in our sport. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
