Re: [Tango-L] The Sound of the Music
We loved having you in Pittsburgh, Keith. Keith, BTW, was scheduled to DJ two milongas, but wound up doing three. No music was repeated and everyone I talked to loved his dj'ing and the quality of music. He gave some interesting ideas at the dj'ing workshop. The locals who attended have improved their own skills. The ones who didn't, well On that note, I've decided to say adieu to the list. It's been an informative ride, and I certainly appreciate the time and effort put into maintaining it. I tried as much as I could to help out those who were in my position when I first joined - a new organizer and teacher trying to be the best organizer and teacher that I could be. I also appreciate all the friends I've made on the list and I will continue to stay in touch with them. Without the help from so many on the list, I don't think I could have encouraged my community to grow as well as it has. When my last three emails to the list did not post, I figured it was time to leave. The first two where responses to a post and I had forgotten about the 2 postings/day limit. I had thought they might post the next day as they did, I thought, bring more light into the discussion and specifically addressed attracting new readers/posters. The last was a one-liner that included a link to Mickey and Minnie tangoing. Yeah, I forgot about that rule, too. I did, however, remember to delete the extraneous parts of earlier posts. None of that bothers me, but it really made me realize that I simply don't have the time for this. I could have rewritten my comments and reposted them for the next day, but life calls. And if new voices rise up, terrific! Anyway, good tangoing to everyone on the list, and if you find yourself in Pittsburgh, shoot me an email or FB me. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Email or FB?
I understand people's concern over FB. I also know people who refused to leave messages on answering machines when they became popular. Dance groups used to mail out fliers, but none in our area do now as it wasn't cost effective. Postcards with a website address has replaced fliers with all the info. Heck, there are even less postcards now announcing events. But boy, do I get a lot of event invites. What I have not heard are any suggestions on how to attract new voices to FB that would revive discussions and make it worthwhile to continue on MIT. Historically, most of the discussions on Tango-L were started by organizers, teachers, or those maintaining tango websites. All of the new teachers/organizers in my area are much more active in FB than on email listservs (except as it pertains to their work). It's a lot easier to friend someone than add an email to one's contact list. On the other tango listserv's that people use, how's the traffic there? Is it by new voices or the same ones? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Email or FB?
On Thu, 4/9/15, robert-b missingl...@cloud9.net wrote: Also, most of the people I meet through tango (with a few exceptions) aren’t all that interested in discussing tango. I have my own blog and I’m often surprised at the lack of feedback or simple lack of interest on the part of many dedicated tango practitioners. They may read, but they may not post publicly. Just like on Tango-L. There's an old rule that if one person gives feedback, there are 20 others just like him that think the same way but aren't saying anything. We've recently had a long discussion on a local FB group about the cabeceo, that brought some new voices in. I checked the Tango DJ listserv and that is still pretty active. Upon reflection of the messages on the Tango DJ listserv and the local FB group, it seems that posts arise because someone has a problem to solve.I think that's how many discussions got started on Tango-L. Anyone got any problems? Trini ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Sergio Suppa passes away
At the end of February, a dear friend to this list and the tango world, Sergio Suppa of Erie, unexpectedly passed away in Argentina at his sister's home. Sergio started the Erie tango community and would often come to Pittsburgh to support our events in our early years. Tall, handsome, and elegant, he was the epitome of the Argentine tango dancer, standing out wherever he went. A doctor by trade, he also taught both ballroom and tango dancing to spread the love of dance. Under his guidance, the Erie community blossomed. And boy could they party! Tangueros from Pittsburgh and Cleveland would often head to Erie for fun milongas where wine flowed freely and tango ruled the dancefloor (with occasion breaks for ballroom). It was one such trip that Donald Hsu convinced Sean I to take that sparked our interest in traveling elsewhere just for milongas. His influence, though, stretched well beyond the tri-state area to all around the world through his meaningful essays on tango shared on several listservs, which pre-Facebook was the main way tango dancers communicated worldwide. As an older Argentine who had lived in the States for many years, he provided great insight into Argentine culture and traditions. Of particular interest was his explanation of male/female dynamics in Argentina and its influence in tango, such as the concept of machismo. His essays on Argentine history and music, also educated many, as well. These listservs were mostly populated by teachers and organizers, such as myself and Sean, who found his essays useful in guiding and educating our own communities. His words have helped guide the foundation for tango communities around the globe. While we will miss him on Earth, it is comforting to know that he will be joining his other tango friends from Erie in a big milonga in Heaven. Sergio, may you dance in peace. An article Sergio wrote on tango history. http://www.totango.net/sergio.html Another piece Sergio wrote on machismo. http://www.totango.net/equal.html ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] certified teaching certificate
Hi all, Anyone know what's up with this Certified Tango Teacher certificate that I've seen promoted here or there? Thankfully, not in my area. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Radio Tango Pittsburgh - Ladas interview
A new radio show, Radio Tango Pittsburgh, has debuted in Pittsburgh in recent weeks on Mondays 3-4pm Eastern Time. You can also stream it online. This week's show will feature an interview with Homer Cristina Ladas during their recent visit. They had some interesting experiences to share. The theme of singers and the orchestras continues this week. You can check out past shows as well. http://www.wrct.org/show/654/ Fran Pionati would be happy to hear your feedback on his show and can be reached at fpion...@yahoo.com Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Which band is interpreting this tango?
Hi Listeros, Can anyone identify which orchestra is playing this version of Caricias? It's not the D'Agostino/Vargas version. It sounds post-Golden Age to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL-Bt75u30w Thanks, Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Which band is interpreting this tango?
Thanks, Burak. I'm looking forward to looking more into this. My music collection could use some fresh stuff. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Sat, 10/27/12, Burak Özkösem burakta...@gmail.com wrote: From: Burak Özkösem burakta...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Which band is interpreting this tango? To: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com Cc: Tango-L Tango-L@mit.edu Date: Saturday, October 27, 2012, 12:03 PM Hi Trini,it's Caricias Hugo Duval ( one of Biagi's singers) after Biagi, he did few albums with the some of Biagi musicians keeping the Biagi style, this song is from the album called Recordando a Biagi by Hugo Duval. Cheers,Burak On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Listeros, Can anyone identify which orchestra is playing this version of Caricias? It's not the D'Agostino/Vargas version. It sounds post-Golden Age to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL-Bt75u30w Thanks, Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The state of nuevo music
My experience is that most people consider the visual foremost, rather than the auditory. In other words, does it look like fun? Some may volunteer that they don't like the music, but that's not that often. As for using non-tango music for performances, I'll only do so to entertain people but I wouldn't expect to actually attract future dancers. If only that type of music attracts them, I wouldn't really bother to attract them to tango because that's not what we'd be using in class. As a teacher, I figure my job is prepare them to dance in BsAs. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Mon, 9/24/12, Lois Donnay don...@donnay.net wrote: I also hear from teachers and performers who feel that they must use non-tango music, or they will not reach new people considering learning tango. Good idea or not? Lois Donnay Minnesota ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] chacarera skirts
I think it's fine if the guys wear jeans. I'm not interested in recreating a historical event. But women like wearing fun flowy skirts, so I'm interested in creating an updated look that the women will enjoy showing off. The guys don't care about their clothes, they just want the women to feel good about participating. Discount department stores (like Marshalls and TJMaxx) around here have maxi skirts for about $20, but they don't have the fullness I'd like. If you figure that these type of folkloric dances were developed and danced by the average person, there really shouldn't be a need to get an expensive skirt during a time when people made their own clothes, right? That wouldn't really be in keeping with the origins of the dance. We have some funds leftover from a post-festival milonga that I thought could go toward these skirts, but I need multiple skirts for the university tango club. A white top and a scarf around the waist (which I can pickup when they go on sale where I work) can complete the look. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Thu, 4/5/12, Tango 22 tang...@gmail.com wrote: Date: Thursday, April 5, 2012, 7:42 PM That fine, but what Pittsburgh guy will wear bombaches and a squashed hat? :() Out of interest, clothing prices in the US must be very reasonable. $85 in Aus for a skirt like that would be a bargain. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] chacarera skirts
Hola listeros!
We've (finally) learned the chacarera here as a community and recently had one
of the university clubs demonstrate it at a Latin festival. Although the women
had long skirts, I would like to either find or make fuller skirts to really
make the dance shine for future demos. I really like the way the woman in this
video uses the skirt of her dress and it would be cool to have something
similar.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-SdUEa_fLkfeature=related
I saw something on Etsy custom-made for $85, but that's way more than what I
want to spend on one skirt. Any suggestions on skirt patterns, costuming
secrets, or sources to get a full skirted look?
Gracias,Trini de Pittsburgh
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Re: [Tango-L] short film of tango
Thank you, Christian. A charming and well-done film. Trini --- On Sun, 2/19/12, Christian Lüthen christian.luet...@gmx.net wrote: From: Christian Lüthen christian.luet...@gmx.net Subject: [Tango-L] short film of tango To: tango-l@mit.edu Date: Sunday, February 19, 2012, 11:37 AM Take ten minutes of your life, sit back, have a (ie.) Cognac ... ... and simply enjoy! Tango is life - and life is tango! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6JYeEcxnUU But be ready for an overdose of tango, romance and tenderness! Though you will only be able to completely spot it if you blend out outer life completely ... Enjoy! Christian ps: and please be careful with your relationships in tango! *wink* . -- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . This e-Mail is sent from my analogue brain! ;-) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] jeremike
I think someone's computer has a virus. I don't think it was an intentional spam. Trini --- On Sun, 1/29/12, k...@aol.com k...@aol.com wrote: From: k...@aol.com k...@aol.com Subject: Re: [Tango-L] jeremike To: tangofant...@aol.com Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Date: Sunday, January 29, 2012, 12:30 AM I asked you kindly before to stop spaming Tango-L. Why is it so difficult for you to do just that ? Do you think sending your advertisement of work at home to thousands of people who are purely interested in Tango is a considered and decent thing to do ??? KW In a message dated 1/28/2012 3:31:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tangofant...@aol.com writes: http://green-eg.com/httpmoneytracking263937622.php?ohupagenumber=27 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango, Social Media
--- On Thu, 12/29/11, kace ong kace...@gmail.com wrote: Of course a lot of the chatter has definitely moved into local sites that serve regional communities; that is traditionally why Tango-A was spun out from Tango-L. But Tango-L is a forum for deeper, more universal topics, a place for Q A, and a place to get opinions from peers. I hope going into 2012 there will be a resurgence in its central role in the Tango world. --- Kace, I think that with today's media, the tolerance for deep discussions solely through the written word has dijminished. Today, people want to be entertained with strong visuals and not just informed. With social media, there is so much of a need/expectation of positive reinforcement, then people are less likely to offer critiques of what people post. It's leading to a society of wusses. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The size and reach of Tango
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, kace ong kace...@gmail.com wrote: Nowadays, the number of online tango resources has exploded, but not the quality nor the reach. The diffused nature of these sites means there is not as much interesting nor information-dense threads as before. I would like to ask the list: - Besides Tango-L being a place to scoop the latest news (e.g. someone famous died), which other online resource has a reliable breaking news feed relating to tango? Unfortunately I found almost all tango revistas from Argentina do not have RSS feeds, even though they are plugged into the news centre of our universe. Hi Kace, I suspect that in lack of information dense threads on Tango-L now compared to a few years ago can be attributed to a lack of new issues. There's not much on the Tango-L that has been brought up dozens of times before in one way or another. Stuff that was brought up has been integrated in to local teaching material. There is a lot less mystery now. New dancers are now reading blogs. However, as you noted, there's overall less discussion taken place because there are so many blogs and it's not possible to have a deep discussion on those blogs as one used to on Tango-L. As far as resources, Facebook probably has the biggest forum or potential for it. It is also the fastest way of disseminating information in popular tango. For example, the deaths of several US tango organizers/teachers were shared on FB but not on Tango-L, which is where they would have been announced a few years ago. I've certainly found it easier and faster to use it to announce events than than our usual local listserv because posts don't have to be so formal. As for discussions on FB, Oliver Kolker and Melina Sedo have occasionally made posts that have caused some discussion. Same with a few people that have posted videos. Nothing though, that is as deep or detailed as discussions on Tango-L. Unfortunately, newer dancers do not realize this loss unless they comb through the old Tango-L archives, which is unlikely. Perhaps a Best Of Tango-L blog could be created, but who's willing to do the work? In the Pittsburgh-Cleveland area, an organizer created a site that allows discussions to take place. However, it has also suffered recently from the problem of trolls, causing people to leave the site. There's also an issue of people not used to having their opinions publicly critiqued. I imagine the same might apply to new forums in older communities. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Pugliese, sound
Thanks, everyone, for your comments and suggestions. I think Keith is right about Pugliese can be heaven at the right time. And I think part of my job as a DJ and community organizer is to create those right times, rather than just hope that they happen. I like Robert's idea of adding a less intense Pugliese as the #3 song before finishing it with the heartwrenching one. Steve, when I DJ'ed recently and asked the organizer how many songs he'd like be to play, he told me to keep it 4 songs, unless there were too many women, in which case to do 3 songs. One of the reasons I do like 4 songs is that it extend a milonga. Around here, people will wait until they dance with the partners they want before they leave. Regarding Ron Patricia's comments about leader training, it's precisely because the leaders here need to learn to slow down to Di Sarli, D'Agostino, etc. that I'm playing more Pugliese. People will slow down to alternative music, but I don't like to play alternative much. Pugliese hits you over the head to slow down and that's what the leaders who (dancing 2-3 years) need right now. They can't hear the slowness of Di Sarli or D'Agostino, but given time and more practice, I'm sure they will. It's actually a multi-pronged approach: - holding workshops/classes on dancing to Pugliese (done), - getting the desirable followers to slow down the guys at a milonga (done), - playing more Pugliese (being done). Yeah, dancing Pugliese can be challenging, but I believe the dancers here can rise to the occasion given the right conditions. I'd rather give them the opportunity to do so, rather than not give them the opportunity at all. Thanks, Len, for the Moreno Mores suggestion. I'll look him up. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Pugliese, sound
Hi all, Just of couple of observations questions. 1) I'm trying to play more Pugliese at milongas. Usually I construct 4 song tandas, but I'm finding with Pugliese that I can only take his more intense songs at only 3 per tanda. Anyone else finding the same thing? 2) I'm still not fully satisfied with putting together a tanda with Pugliese's Desda de Alma. For that one, I've created a vals mix of different orchestras to get a similar sound, but I'm not really happy. What have others used? 3) Since I have various sound levels of my music, I was considering running them through a program to level out the sound. My Media Monkey can do it, but I'm a little wary of anything that permanently changes my music. I do have it copied on an external drive, though. Since I'll be adding music to my collection, the same issue is likely to appear again. I'd like to find a better solution. Any suggestions? Thanks, Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Meccas (WAS Re: Seminar review)
The Argentines in my city all learned tango in the States. Some have hosted milongas. They have danced in BsAs, but I've never heard them complain about the milongas here after they've returned. Maybe because their friends are here. Maybe those BsAs teachers just don't have friends in the US. If they are looking just at a dance quality viewpoint, I could understand that. I think most tango communities here or in Europe are true social gatherings. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Tue, 10/11/11, Lois Donnay don...@donnay.net wrote: This got me thinkingWhen I am in Buenos Aires, I hear tango teachers (mostly from BAires) sit at the milongas and gripe about how the milongas in the US and Europe just can't compare to those in BA. I always hear threats to quit - stop teaching in the US and move back to BA to enjoy real milongas. I wonder if it is the same in other cities as here - our two local teachers from Argentina are rarely if ever at a milonga. We have no organizers or DJ's who are from BA. Some have never even been to BA, or haven't been in years. Yet we have a lively scene (for our small city), with 5 or more milongas a week and 2 live tango orchestras. In your cities, is it the same? Are Argentines organizing and DJ'ing milongas? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] milonga walking tempo versus tango
Depends on the milonga, Robert. Dance to some and you really only feel like walking on the ONE. I like to think of milonga as having more beats that you can play with than tango, but the speed of it isn't really any faster, at least for a dancer, for the most part. --- On Sat, 10/1/11, Robert Dodier robert.dod...@gmail.com wrote: So it seems to be that milonga music really is played at a much faster tempo than tango, instead of taking more steps in music that is played at the same tempo. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Report on the Tango Festival Mundial Buenos Aires 2011
Wow. Thanks for the informative report. It sounds like incorporating this time of year would be a good idea for a trip. I'm at the point where I'm more interested in the music than the dancing since I'm pretty settled in my own dancing. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Shahrukh Merchant shahr...@shahrukhmerchant.com wrote: From: Shahrukh Merchant shahr...@shahrukhmerchant.com Subject: [Tango-L] Report on the Tango Festival Mundial Buenos Aires 2011 To: tango-l@mit.edu Date: Friday, August 19, 2011, 1:15 AM The festival opened on Tuesday, Aug 16 (and runs through Aug 30). I stopped in for music performances on the 17th and 18th. Here is a brief report: The location this year is the Buenos Aires Expo Center (Centro de Exposiciones) at Av. Pueyrredón and Av. Figuero Alcorta, en Recoleta, next to the Facultad de Derecho. It's a rather unattractive structure, industrial looking with awkward access, but they've done a reasonable enough job on the interior, and I'm guessing it's the only relatively economical large space they could get to accommodate a few thousand people at a time with various parallel events going on under one roof. The main space is mostly one huge open space, with a large stage/concert area at one end (called the Escenario Horacio Salgán, after the well-known pianist and orchestra leader, still living at 95, and at least a couple of years ago was occasionally even performing briefly). There is seating at this concert area for 1500 people with a large open standing area behind and on the sides for well for well over 1000 more. You should not have problems finding at least standing room for pretty much any concert being held there, and if you get there 1/2 hour earlier, you will certainly get very good seating. In the same large open area is a large dance floor (with a synthetic smooth material covering what would otherwise be a concrete floor). There seems to be non-stop dancing going on there. When there is no class, there is recorded music playing, unless a concert is going on at the main stage in which case you can dance to whatever live music is playing! There were a number of quite proficient social dancers on the floor both times I went. There is a second concert area called Escenario Horacio Ferrer (after well-known Tango poet/lyricist and author of a well-known Tango historical literary work--the work most likely to be familiar to some readers would be María de Buenos Aires, the Tango opera composed by Piazzolla, to which he wrote the libretto). This was supposed to be in a similarly sized space connected to the main area but apparently there was some bureaucratic disagreement with Teatro Colón (which I guess owns or has rights to that other space), so it was relocated to a much smaller space of just about 300 seats with a separate building entrance to the right of the main entrance. If you want to see a show that is supposed to be held there, you should (a) make sure it hasn't been relocated to what has now ended up becoming the main stage and, if not (b) show up and stand in line 1/2 hour before the starting time to get a good seat (or even get in). At the one performance I saw at the Escenario Horacio Ferrer, Mr. Horacio Ferrer himself showed up unannounced and was sitting in the audience (but was recognized and introduced from the stage)! Tonight I saw two performances--the one that would be more familiar to most readers would be Orquesta Sans Souci playing pretty much standard Caló (it was a homage to Osmar Maderna, Caló's pianist and arranger until he died an untimely death). The other rather more unusual one (OK, it was weird ...) was a combination of Jairo (Argentine pop/folk singer) singing with classical Tango guitarist Leonardo Sánchez, and backed up by a large classical chamber orchestra of a dozen or so string instruments (violins, violas, cellos, bass). I'm not sure I'm quite ready to get that CD ... Getting back to the rest of the main area, one entire side is a vendors' area, mostly comprising Tango shoe vendors (they seem to have the highest advertising budget and probably outbid everyone else--at least now you know why Tango shoes are so expensive). Another section is an exhibit devoted to Carlos Gardel, and there is an interesting little radio broadcasting booth where old-time Tango singers were singing for what was apparently a live radio broadcast. This was just the 3rd of 15 days (my second day), and I will absolutely try to go to something as many of the remaining days as I can. The depth and breadth of Tango performances is just amazing, and here I am referring to music performances, since remember that, in Argentina and to Argentines, the core of Tango is absolutely the music (including or rather especially the poetry of the lyrics), with the dance being a very distant second. Tango dancing is very much a fringe phenomenon in Argentina as far as most of the population is
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Festivals
--- On Fri, 7/29/11, Tom Stermitz sterm...@tango.org wrote: The term festival might be a marketing angle or wishful thinking on the part of the organizer. Two pairs of teachers without a cast of nationally-known DJs is more like a workshop weekend, even if you have 20 out-of-town visitors. Another example, Tango Colorado puts on a special outreach weekend with 15 or 20 Denver teachers and Saturday milonga. Is that a festival? I think, Tom, that such an event could be called a festival, but it's just a city-wide festival. That's sounds like a great way to get people in your area interested, so to them it would be a festival. For several years, one of our organizers ran a festival that incorporated art, music, dance, and poetry. It included live music and an instructor from NY. It was great fun for the locals and nearby cities. We called it a regional festival. I don't think I would have submitted it to be included in Shaun's list, though. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] why music
And your definition of richer may be different from mine, Joe Schmo, or Jane Doe. Otherwise, we'd all be dancing the exact same way. Viva la difference! And a belated Happy Independence Day for our Argentine listeros. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Sun, 7/10/11, Secondary Yahoo johnc...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Secondary Yahoo johnc...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Tango-L] why music To: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com Cc: Tango-L Tango-L@mit.edu Date: Sunday, July 10, 2011, 5:50 PM Well... Now multiplication tables and dancing tango are one of the same. Learning styles asides the richer the learning context (assuming we are dealing with a well structure learning experience) the more success and joy one will experience. JC ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Getting tango lessons to the needy
--- On Tue, 7/5/11, Chris, UK t...@chrisjj.com wrote: I note this list of the points that most people can judge themselves doesn't include being able to dance to the music. Correct. The average social dancer thinks that just being on the beat is dancing to the music. In my experience the advanced (or even average) social dancer is most definitely NOT fine with 12+ count sequences. He/she abhors such stuff. 12+ count sequences are for poor dancers with good memory. You miss my point. If you've studied cognitive memory, then you're aware that people have short term memories of 5 plus/minus 2 chunks of information. These chunks get bigger as experience and muscle memory grow. Thus, a 12+ count sequence only becomes about 2 or 3 chunks, still leaving plenty of room to accomodate more chunks of information. The average social dancer usually can't handle more than a 4-6 count figures. At an advanced workshop, the advanced dancers are obvious. The teacher shows a new figure once or twice. The advanced dancers immediately try to copy the movements and work out how to do it on their own. The teachers actually does very little compared to intermediate or beginning workshops. Mostly these workshops show a new way of thinking about things, not new figures. That's usually the point of these long sequences. If this is not your experience, then I would think that the advanced workshops you've seen aren't really advanced workshops. Or you may not have seen just what advanced dancers are capable of. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Getting tango lessons to the needy
--- On Tue, 7/5/11, Alexis Cousein a...@sgi.com wrote: I know some teachers will use an obvious entry that's 5 counts long to get into e.g. a right hand side cross system and may want to bolt on an exit that's also quite long to get back into the LOD Yes, and a teacher would do that for an intermediate workshop but shouldn't be doing it for an advanced workshop. To give an example of how chunking works, let's say the teacher takes the follower to the cross to set up the figure (positions 2 thru 5) before he does whatever movement he's going to teach. - A beginner might use up 5+ chunks just for the walk to the cross. - An intermediate would use 1 chunk and his second chunk would be whatever the movement is. - An advanced dancer would still be waiting to see the next 4-5 movements before calling it 1 chunk. The whole walk to the cross would be disregarded. And the LOD wouldn't even need to be discussed because advanced dancers know they can bend anything they want to go where they need to go. They'll figure it out on their own. Oh, and the number of chunks for short-term memory is 7 plus or minus 2. I tend to chunk things up so that I only need to remember 5 big chunks at the most. This is why I prefer to take notes during workshops instead of just recording videos. It engages the brain more to create bigger chunks of information for long-term memory. I also read recently that as we age (ages 40+), our brains get better at connecting relationships (seeing the overall picture) even though we might lose minor things. I think that works well for tango. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Getting tango lessons to the needy
--- On Tue, 7/5/11, Alexis Cousein a...@sgi.com wrote: Or is that you need to be able to... another way of saying that to do the advanced class you simply need to be a splicing and reassembler expert who recognizes splice sites, who can see the forest for the trees even in a long sequence? That's part of it. The other part is the technical skill to do turn combinations which are the most difficult things in tango to do well. More difficult than colgadas or volcadas or whatever the latest fad is. If one can do turn combinations well, chances are good that he/she has a good enough foundation to do just about anything else. Oh, and just to be clear, a properly challenging sequence would not include the fluff as part of a 12+ count. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Getting tango lessons to the needy
--- On Fri, 7/1/11, Sergey Kazachenko syarz...@gmail.com wrote: How would you draw the distinction between intermediate and advanced? What requirements do you put up? Sergey Defining “advanced” for the purposes of workshops or classes isn’t as difficult as it seems. Few people become advanced dancers (maybe 10%). Most are intermediate dancers (80%). Yet, teachers label workshops or classes as if there’s an even distribution of dancers. The bulk of classes should be labeled intermediate, which could further be broken down into low/solid/high intermediate classes. As a result, people tend to think they can buy into whatever level they want regardless of actual skill level. At a recent weekend when some newer dancers questioned me on my policy, I simply explained that the advanced dancers (10+ years) have been helping everyone else during the beginning intermediate workshops and that the Advanced workshop was specifically for them so that they can work on themselves and not everyone else. When put in those terms, everyone was fine with this policy. I do allow exceptions for long-term dancers who could use more work but who I know won’t disturb the study of the better dancers. I do have less stringent requirements for advanced milonguero workshops because there is less vocabulary to know. Interestingly, I haven’t yet needed to specify the requirements for the advanced milonguero workshops, perhaps because most people instinctively know their limits when dancing close-embrace. So what are the requirements to get into an “advanced” salon/nuevo workshop? There are several different ways of looking at it. 1) An advanced dancer can just be told to do a figure and can execute it. 2) An advanced dancer can be shown a common combination once and execute it with no instruction. 3) An advanced follower will understand the technique to complete a combination just as well as the leader and will be a partner to the leader in his studies. She will also be just as familiar with the figures as the man. 4) An advanced dancer should be fine with learning a 12+ count sequence. There are other requirements as well, but I’m only sticking to points with which most people can judge themselves on their own. The criteria I state in advanced workshops descriptions comes down to this, “Must already be familiar with continuous giros with sacadas/ganchos/barridas/boleos, enrosque with lapis, back sacadas, volcadas, and colgadas.” A key word is “continuous”. Sometimes I’ve added that they must be comfortable executing these movements at a milonga (key word being “milonga”). What I’m really measuring is balance, knowledge level, and control because that’s what it takes to execute ornaments during giros. “Familiarity” also means that they aren’t required to execute things perfectly but can be reasonably comfortable with these movements. This definition has worked just fine for me for the past 10 years. Since I can both lead and follow at an advanced level, I can try out people beforehand if I need to or give them pointers before letting them in. Not all workshop weekends will have an advanced workshop, depending on the needs of my community. Sometimes the highest level offered is only the “int/adv” level. After the weekend I make a point of emailing out how great everyone did and how hard they worked, how pleased the teachers were, etc. The end effect is that standards are set. If one is going to be serious about dancing, then I suggest setting standards. If the goal is just having fun, then why bother to use levels at all? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Getting tango lessons to the needy
--- On Tue, 6/28/11, Lois Donnay don...@donnay.net wrote: Despite reciting the mantra Beginners go to Int., Int. go to advanced, Advanced go to beginners they just can't bring themselves to show up at a beginner class. There they are at advanced workshops, learning back secadas and single axis turns. What can teachers do for these people? First thing they can do is quit using words like advanced to actually refer to non-advanced classes. I hear people all the time say they are taking an advanced class when I know perfectly well the class level is actually an intermediate level material. Second thing is to put requirements up to get into an advanced workshop. I've done that for years without a problem. If teachers do not hold to certain standards, then others can't be blamed for not knowing how poorly they do. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Men's strategies (3)
Hi Sherrie, I don't think it was Steve that was contradicting you. I believe he only shared his personal experiences. I am also surprised that yours and Nancy's experiences are being pooh-poohed, as if with the hundreds of male dancers in BsAs have only one way of asking a woman to dance and one moment in time to ask. It doesn't take much to catch someone's eye. At a local milonga, it's pretty easy to note who comes and goes even while dancing. A little something that registers in the head, not like filling out a spreadsheet of data. I don't think that type of communication you and Nancy talk about has reached the States because guys are too busy trying out their new steps and looking at their partner (instead of the floor and creates all types of navigational hazards). If a man dances simply and musically, I think what you and Nancy describe is quite reasonable. Thanks for sharing your experiences. And thanks to Nancy, too. It adds a useful dimension to the tango culture in BsAs. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Sat, 6/18/11, sherp...@aol.com sherp...@aol.com wrote: Steve. it is so incredible how you guys give all this outpouring of support and appreciation for what other men tell you, but pretty much attack, deny and ignore what women tell you. It seems to me that Nancy and I (although I do not know her) are pretty experienced in the realm of dancing in BA with some very good milongueros, and yet you all hardly give a nod to our experiences and information. It makes it all seem so one way and wooden. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The spread of tango
--- On Thu, 6/9/11, Alexis Cousein a...@sgi.com wrote: On 09/06/2011 10:22, johnofbris...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Yes I see what you mean, but my understanding is that Ballroom and Argentine tango were the same thing a century ago, and have developed in different directions. That's not how I see it at all. Argentine tango was a social dance and without an official syllabus, and even though Ballroom tango was derived from it, it was nevertheless changed dramatically from the start (amongst others, by adopting a very different embrace and posture and by largely abandoning the particular emphasis on playful musicality and improvisation). ~~~ I think this is what John means. That there was no tango in the European countries. Tango came. Got changed into ballroom tango. In Finland, it became Finnish tango. I'm guessing that Argentine tango as we know it disappeared as ballroom tango took over. There were German tango bands and Russian tango, but they disappeared after the war. Perhaps after WWII, there was more interest in American culture that started to move in the local culture (especially in Germany). I'm just guessing here. It seems pretty clear that Tango Argentino's tour in the late 80's reintroduced Argentine tango to Europe, Japan, Australia and the States. I can only surmise that the ballroom studios had a hand in spreading the genre initially. A search on the internet on tango in Japan points to 1987 as the first year a Japanese couple started teaching locally. As Romero pointed out, Danel Maria Bastone in NY had milongas (other Argentines had milongas in other cities, as well, but they were small). I'm guessing that these were initially oriented toward Argentines and intended as ethnic gatherings. Danel Maria have been around since the 1960's. When Tango Argentino toured in 1985, ballroom studios became interested. Paul Pellicoro writes that the first classes in NYC were with cast members of the show, with the first students being ballroom instructors. (Perhaps he didn't know about Danel Maria or perhaps Danel Maria only did milongas?) Trenner just happened to be in BsAs in 1986, starting learning tango, and began traveling and teaching it. Unlike ballroom teachers, he wasn't tied down to one studio and could move around. Perhaps the sheer geographic size of the U.S. required someone like Trenner to spread the word and help small communities after Tango Argentino passed through. Japan and European countries are much smaller, so the ballroom studios were sufficient until more independent instructors appeared. John in Australia points to a second wave with The Tango Lesson (1997) movie and Forever Tango (late 1990's) stage show. (I started tango in 1995.) Alexis' comment about the lack of musicality as tango started in Flanders echos some thoughts of Pellicoro, who writes By the end of the class on that historic afternoon, however, a sudden revelation occurred to all of us. We realized that our teachers weren't as inadequate as we thought...In that first class they taught us an important lesson that many of us had all but forgotten: That dancing must be connected to a feeling inspired by the music. Here in the States, I'd have to point to Susana Miller who emphasized musicality and brought along a bunch of music that people could purchase. Getting music pre-internet days was really difficult. Others with older memories are welcome to correct me on any of these points. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Interesting Tango Listing
I'm with Huck. If I want to work on my milonga, I want a workshop that says milonga. Same for musicality workshops. I think titles gives people different things to think about before the workshops so that they can be better prepared for the workshop themselves. There are times when the instructor changes the workshop based on what he/she sees people doing. Usually, the participants say okay. But still, having an idea in mind draws people that want to work on that particular idea and there's more consistency. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The spread of tango
So, I was thinking that after the initial introduction in Europe, Argentine tango lost its appeal after WWII and may have died out in most countries (and changed to something else in Finland). Basically, mirroring the trend in Argentina. It didn't pick up again until Tango Argentino played in France. Is this incorrect? Romero pointed out that Danel Maria had milongas in NYC for years, apparently since the 1960's, according to their website. I would guess that these milongas would have been more like ethnic gatherings and not the commercial enterprises we have today. A place where people could speak Spanish freely and support a common nationality. I'm just guessing here. Does anyone know anything differently? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] The spread of tango
Hola listeros, I'm curious to know from those in European and Asian countries, who or what specially popularized tango in your country. I know that Tango Argentino broke ground in France and went to Broadway, but it was Daniel Trenner who really made it take off in the U.S, planting tango seeds like Johnny Appleseed. It seems that Japan has a longer history of tango than the U.S. If you don't live in the U.S, who planted and watered the seeds in your country? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Building the Myth
Interesting article. Lapadula often uses the term club style to describe his tango, nor is he the first to use that term. I don't know that ‘tango estilo del centro can be considered a direct translation. My take is that the difference between his style and Estilo Villa Urquiza is that the latter includes more open figures. Rather than just using the terms, the writer of the site may want to consider including years (Golden Age, Late 20th Century) to also describe the different styles and the changes. Given that steps are created and go out of favor, it only make sense that styles change over time. Personally, I find the 4 broader categories (salon, milonguero, nuevo, fantasia/show) sufficient for describing the different styles. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Sat, 6/4/11, Balazs Gyenis gy...@hps.elte.hu wrote: Although the meaning of Mario's side remark escapes me, for those who'd rather prefer to read than watch Horacio's very nice presentation the same terminological observations about stylistic variations are made in the following tangovoice post: http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/tango-estilo-del-barrio-versus-estilo-villa-urquiza-tango-estilo-del-centro-versus-estilo-milonguero ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango 'Al Reves'
I just happen to have gotten an email today about a book by Gustavo Benzecry Sabá on tango dance terms (prefaces by Juan Carlos Copes and Gavito). Here's a page from the book with the al reves position. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/9872448183/ref=dp_otherviews_2?ie=UTF8m=AT7YZ41RJQT5Gs=booksimg=2 As Brick pointed out, it's not new. What may be new is the extent of it being used in the upcoming performance. By specifying a performance with Tango Al Reves rather than just a tango performance, the dancers are recognizing that this is a particular style they are doing. I'd rather they do that than call an entire performance in al reves just a regular tango performance. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Fri, 5/27/11, Mario sopel...@yahoo.com wrote: I just saw an ad for a special 'Al Reves' performance of Arg. Tango in the milonga near my home town in the States...I suppose that we can all imagine/guess at what 'Al Reves' meansa new twist to the traditional dance... ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Advice from a 3 1/2 yr old.
--- On Wed, 4/27/11, Sharon Pedersen sharon.peder...@gmail.com wrote: Early on in my tango dancing life, I usually felt out of balance when dancing. I had one fantastic dance with someone, in which I felt fabulously balanced and did all sorts of fast stuff. I'm not sure exactly how he did it, but I have always thought that it's because he could sense when I was about to be out of balance, and then subtly moved to a place so that by the time I put my foot down, I was in balance instead. Extraordinarily wonderful. Or he was helping to hold you up using his right hand. When it's done right, the woman isn't very aware of what he's doing. Trini ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] What to do with a carpeted floor?
I'd say vinyl over 1/2 plywood. You could use different thicknesses of plywood, but you'd need to trade off sturdiness with portability. Trini --- On Tue, 4/26/11, Sergey Kazachenko syarz...@gmail.com wrote: I am about to move to a new place, and it, sadly, has a carpeted floor. What can one do to create a little practice space without ripping off the carpets? Any suggestions? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Better? Worse? Just different.
--- On Wed, 4/20/11, Brick Robbins br...@brickrobbins.com wrote: From: Jack Dylan jackdylan...@yahoo.com And what you were told is correct; there are no 'wraps' in Traditional Tango. So anyone who dances wraps in their tango, no matter the shape of the embrace, is not dancing traditional tango. Thank you for making that clear. Does this mean, then, that tango is ... gasp ... CODIFIED? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Better? Worse? Just different.
--- On Mon, 4/18/11, Jack Dylan jackdylan...@yahoo.com wrote: I can't help but disagree with this, especially when it's supported by a comment from the superficial world of fashion - IMO, nothing has less in common with Tango. Actually, Jack, women's fashion has more of an effect on tango than you might think. Have you ever seen canyengue performed in modern clothes? In modern clothes, women doing canyengue look inelegant and awkward with knees akimbo. When women wear dresses cut similarly to the early 1900's, they look quite nice. Today, women are wearing pants to milongas or dresses with leggings underneath. This gives them more freedom to more their legs without exposing personal areas. Fabrics are also stretchier, which also allows more movement. There are many factors influencing tango. Fashion is one of them. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] tango movement
Let's look at tango movement for a moment. There are some things I've noticed about tango that I've not seen in other dances, such as: - walking in crossed feet - the cross - ganchos, leg wraps, sacadas - a seeming immobility of the upper body I've seen ocho movements being done in other Latin dances, but they are not performed in the same way as in tango. Other Latin dances are stationary, whereas Tango travels. Tango also does not have side by side dancing. Although there's been experimentation with alternative embraces, that has really just been a fad. This tells me that for all of the fanciness and creativity, there's an overriding desire for people to want to hold and be held. Other observations of tango movement compared to other dances? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Better? Worse? Just different.
--- On Mon, 4/18/11, Myk Dowling poli...@gmail.com wrote: Most of my hobby/entertainment choices involve traditional things. Trad folk music, traditional archery, historical reenactment, contra dancing, ... There are many, many people around the world who don't consider traditional to mean stuck in the past. The past is a rich source of human invention and art, well worth learning from. Historical reenactment, I believe, has to be more-or-less a recreation of the past, correct? How much change is allowed? Clothing? Language? Instruments? How much new music is created for traditional folk music? I have no problem with you choosing to call it classic if you want, but I'm equally happy with traditional, and I think it's a superior term. No one ever claimed a new rock song was an instant traditional. I've heard critics describe some new music as being in the vein of classic rock. Can't think of any recently. Traditional rock seems like an oxymoron to me. Perhaps that's part of the difference in how people think of tango. To me, change is inevitable. Tango has changed over the past 100 years, but it still retains certain characteristics, particularly the most important one - being in an embrace with another person. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Better? Worse? Just different.
I'm still not seeing the extinction or obliteration of tango. Alberto says there were only 40 people dancing classic tango. I'm pretty sure there are way more than 40 today. Arabian horses are still around, correct? Tango music has been changing since the 1940's. I've heard new music created by newer orchestras. Some in the traditional vein. Some with influences from a different genre, some heavily. And still people dance close-embrace and dance to classic tango music. My community prefers classic tango music. They like to dance to alternative maybe twice a night, but not much more. Still not seeing an extinction. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Better? Worse? Just different.
--- On Fri, 4/15/11, Myk Dowling poli...@gmail.com wrote: I see new students learning tango, some of whom want to go the nuevo route and some of whom want the traditional style. I think part of this fear of extinction by some is how one describes the older style of tango. I prefer to use the word classic instead of traditional. Traditional connotes something stuck in the past, whereas classic connotes something that will never go out of style. Classic tango is phrase we use in my community. This idea came to me after reading an interview with supermodel Cindy Crawford who described how the word traditional was a no-no in the world of fashion. A little black dress with stiletto heels is classic. Dressing like Margaret Thatcher is traditional. Close-embrace tango is not going to go out of style, as long as there are people who enjoy being held by other people. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tango to rap
--- On Thu, 4/7/11, JOHN WROBLEWSKI nrj.spar...@prodigy.net wrote: Vince; I agree with you. This ad is not tango. By the very definition a tango is a tango because of the tango music. The question is can there exist a tango dance without tango music and the answer is no. And if a tango danced to music other than tango music is the dance a real tango, again the answer is no. Why, because of the identity principle: I think therefore I am. Tango music and the act of the tango dance, are one identity. By that logic that it would seem that the dancing I saw last week at the Piazzolla operita was tango simply because the music was tango. I would call the dancing itself modern dance and not tango. If one can dance ballet to tango music or modern to tango music or whatever else, that it seems to me that there is indeed a separation between music and movement. I'm sure we're all familiar with ballet companies taking jazz music or swing music or whatever and performing ballet to it. We accept that as okay and artistic. We don't say they're not doing swing. We say they're doing ballet to swing music. Seems to be the same could apply to tango, as well. One could argue about an emotional factor in tango, but modern dancers and ballet dancers feel, too. The dancers who convey an emotion with their dancing are at the top of their fields. One could argue about a partner connection. Well, what about a pas de deux in ballet? One could argue about improv vs. choreography. Well, I know many dancers who choreograph tango for show, and modern dancers do contact improv. I just see people dancing tango to non tango music as just developing another subset of dancing in the vast world of tango. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tango to rap
I can accept the hypothesis that you can dance any type of step to tango music and legitimately call it tango, but I can't accept that dancing the same steps to any other music, can be called tango. Are you referring an any individual step or a series of steps? I would tend to agree that an individual movement could be included as tango. However, a whole series of movement would bring it into question. It seems to me that those who are against including dancing to non-tango music in the world of tango do so out of personal preference. That's fine, but I've yet to hear an argument based on something that would withstand scientific scrutiny. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Maria de Buenos Aires
Hi listeros, If anyone is visiting my neck of the woods in Southwestern Pennsylvania, I recommend checking out a new production of Piazzolla's operita Maria de Buenos Aires. It's playing here until April 17, and has gotten good reviews by both newspaper critics and local tangueros. Ben Bogart is the bandoneonist for the show and does a wonderful job. www.quantumtheatre.com The storyline itself is a little weird. Maria represents tango music and she dies and gets reborn as herself sorta'. Like I said, it's a little weird and was composed in 1968. The music and the orchestra, however, are excellent. Nice performances and the staging is creative. (This is a difficult piece to do.) Modern dancers do some tango-like stuff, but they're not trying to recreate authentic tango, which is fine. It's an excellent experience. I saw the show on Monday, and I recommend it myself. The music and the story went together very well, and give me a better understanding of some of Piazzolla's work. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tango to rap
Firstly, it's extremely rude to publish a post that is intended as a personal reply. Such an act says just as much about the poster than the replier. Secondly, I thought the ad was pretty cool for the audience I presume they were trying to reach, which are not old farts. I liked that they were telling a story and an emotional connection was there. That emotional connection is what defines tango. They are obviously acting and setting a scene. Thirdly, Vince, if you didn't like it and were only going to criticize it (knowing perfectly well that others will like it), then why bother posting it at all? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tango to rap
From: Charles Roques c.roq...@mchsi.com Dancing traditional or nuevo (or well) has little to do with age. Exactly, which is why I used the term old farts, which implies a certain mindset. Nor was nothing wrong with their form or technique. It was well-executed show tango. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The Australian context for copyright in Original Tango Music
Interesting. So does this mean that if a music student does a recital of Libertango in order to graduate, he must have a license to perform it (which I would guess would be handled by the school)? Would public performance include anything outside of the home, regardless of whether money is requested to hear the performance? Does that mean that all of those people on Youtube that record themselves playing someone else's work or make tribute videos could get hit with fines? Trini de Pittsburgh In other words, while you may be playing a Beethoven composition (in which copyright has expired), the CD/cassette you are playing may be, for example, by the Australian Symphony Orchestra, recorded in 1998. As the particular recording by the orchestra is only 11 years old, copyright exists in the protected sound recording and a licence to publicly perform it is required. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] copyrights and public good
I recently learned that a local chain won a lawsuit allowing it to broadcast radio tunes to its patrons. It's unclear whether it's still allowed. But I found the implications about copyrights and the public good interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Century_Music_Corp._v._Aiken Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Proportions
On 2/8/2011 1:31 PM, Charles Roques wrote: I think the first requirement for a good DJ is being able to dance well so that whatever you play connects with you for its danceability (and of course a sensitivity to the crowd's response) and the second is having a good selection of songs. I disagree. I know several dancers who dance well but play crap when they deejay. I'd start with a good selection of songs. Even if a beginner with a good selection of songs can make decent deejay. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Truth in stereotypes
Quite correct, Huck. Many of my posts and queries generate a good deal of discussion, so I'm not inclined to say that posts by women are ignored. I would think that discussion is based on content, not on the gender of the poster. If someone feels their post is being ignored, then I would first suggest looking into its content or the style of writing before attributing it to other factors such as gender. Why is this a male dominated forum? I would guess that it is simply that the role of the man requires a broader range of skills than the woman on average. Thus, they have more things to talk about. That's not to say that women don't do their work, but less women do the work than men. That is my observation, anyway. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Huck Kennedy tempeh...@gmail.com wrote: One of the most frequent posters to Tango-L is Trini. I wonder if she feels cut off or ignored. I doubt it would even occur to her to think that--if she has something to say, she just posts it and is not particularly concerned about whether or not someone responds. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] invitation
--- On Wed, 2/2/11, sherp...@aol.com sherp...@aol.com wrote: what i said initially ,which was never met with a rejoinder(an answer to a reply) was this: the man creates a space that invites the woman to move into, not pushing or shoving, but inviting as gavito said, the lead moves the woman away from the space(position) he wants to occupy. I hadn't been following the whole Tango Lead/Invite thread because I figured that it was just another duh thread where the same things would be rehashed over again. So I went back and read some of it. It appears to me that what Sherrie wrote is supported by earlier posts. My impression was that Sherrie's comment wasn't ignored but that it represented closure, as in who doesn't know that by now so let's move on. One issue that did stick out for me concerning that thread, though, was timing. With a good leader, a woman has plenty of time to make decisions about how to respond to an invitation. A good leader projects his intention well ahead of the execution. A follower who is paying attention knows what's coming and has plenty of time to react. How else could she possibly do ornaments well if this were not true? The Invite-Accept process is not necessarily simultaneous or occurs within split seconds. It can take a split second for the woman to recognize the invite, but she has lots of time to decide how to respond. Another example is when the woman helps the man avoid a collision by, say, refusing to move in a particular direction or taking a smaller step. That's quite a conscious decision. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Would you buy tango music if..........
Around here, the rule is if the event is free, the DJ does not get paid. If an entry fee is required, the DJ gets paid. Sometimes it's just a nominal amount or is based on the take. Paying the DJ not only shows appreciation for his/her work but also professionalizes it. It sounds to me like that group is trying to avoid political problems. They should really just pay the DJ, comp him/her with workshops, or get him/her some music gift cards. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Mon, 1/24/11, Vince Bagusauskas vy...@hotmail.com wrote: A friend of mine has stated that he asked the local tango group to invest in buying tango recordings, thus quadrupling the groups tango library, so as to give the various budding DJ’s more variety in music. He was refused. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Navigation
Nice post, Ron. Daniel Trenner is the only teacher I've had in recent memory to teach this navigation in beginning classes. One teacher here has incorporated it into his beginning classes, but it's too early to tell what effect that has on those students' introduction into the community, which follows a forward mode. We've been trying to emphasize it more in milonga with limited success. I do believe, though, that it is one of those essential things dancers should be aware of, even if they don't use it themselves. I've gently asked other Argentine teachers who have been around as long as Daniel, and the general response is that the direction the man faces doesn't matter, they just make adjustments as needed. I've also noticed issues with certain vocabulary since milonguero style has become more prevalent. Such as women having more difficulty recognizing moments to cross and anticipating ocho cortado rather than forward ochos. Anyone else have that experience? Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Thu, 1/13/11, RonTango ronta...@rocketmail.com wrote: - Original Message From: Ming Mar ming_...@yahoo.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbUai1Lv5-0 This video provides a very good example of how experienced dancers navigate in the milongas of Buenos Aires. Almost every man who has any sense of navigation in the US proceeds around the floor walking facing forward in the direction of the ronda, using turns when forward progression is no longer feasible. This is how we have all been taught - walk forward and turn if you can't walk forward anymore.. I have never met an instructor who has taught otherwise for tango, although I have met a rare few who teach a different (perhaps optional) mode of progression for milonga. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Primiordal?
Mario, Are you addressing specifically on the dance floor at a milonga or in general? If you're referring to being on the dance floor at a milonga, I've seen women teaching, also, though not as much. Women, I think, tend to ask for more feedback than men. When I correct teaching going on at a milonga, it's usually because the man has been asked by the woman. Is it primiordal? Perhaps. I chose a mate that I thought was smarter than me in many ways (at least, I thought so at the time and he still amazes me, as well as, makes me roll my eyes). I guess that would put the opposite situation as mothering (ala Courtney Cox David Arquette). Can't see the latter working so well in tango. Equality is good, too. So perhaps you just see the man teaching more because the mothering types aren't out there. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Tue, 1/11/11, Mario sopel...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Mario sopel...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] why is it always the guy who's doing the 'teaching' ? To: TANGO-L tango-l@mit.edu Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 8:44 AM Is it something primiordal or perhaps a mating ritual but why is it always the guy on the dance floor who is doing the 'teaching'? and is that why the dance is going in the direction it is? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
I propose a different way of classifying salon or show tango - looking at what the woman is doing. Is she the one being shown off? Are her ornaments dominating the dance? I know when I perform, my ornaments are bigger. My partner allows me to make them bigger or encourages it. When I'm just doing social salon tango, I don't try to make them more visible. I have in mind Diego DiFalco and Carolina Zokalski who are teaching here on a regular basis. Someone told me that he wasn't going to take their workshops because he thought they were show tango. I explained that they don't do show tango, but salon tango at a really high level. Some of their performances are definitely show tango as they may come from shows that they've done. But you can tell which ones those are. Carolina rarely does big ornaments. In fact, she doesn't ornament much at all. Although she performs, Carolina doesn't consider herself a performance dancer. She's a social dancer. When women do big ornaments that are clearly meant for the audience, that's show tango. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Right hand lead?
I've been the victim of that many times. It's rather unpleasant. It was still being taught in the 90's, but I'm glad that it's gone out of fashion. It's useful to remember that the women way back when didn't take classes like the women today. The attitude of the man was that the women didn't need to learn anything, they just followed. When the first women's technique class in BsAs started in the 90's, the men scoffed at it. This attitude carried over to the teaching in the U.S in the 90's. Women only assisted the male teachers. Many of them didn't talk. I remember going to workshops a few months after Milena Plebs began partnering a new partner. Everyone really came to study with Milena but she didn't say anything. She prompted her much younger partner on what to say and he said it. Given that environment, I appreciate the difficulty someone like Susana Miller had to go through just to be able to teach the man's role. It would take an incredibly strong character. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Mon, 11/22/10, Sergey Kazachenko syarz...@gmail.com wrote: I am visiting San Francisco and got to Gabriel Missé's ( http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/arts/dance/11tango.html ) workshop He was saying that leading with the chest is a later invention and that old milongeros used the right hand lead. If you press the right palm down, that's a signal for the lady to switch her weight to her right. If you press the right elbow down, that's a signal to switch the lady's weight to her left. I tried it and it seems to work! Anybody else familiar with this? Sergey ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with the right hand
Sergio is quite right about various ways of leading. But the pleasantness/unpleasantness of the sensation and whether it is appropriate or not is best gauged by the woman. For example, a woman who moves like a piece of furniture might like a right hand lead. A woman who moves like an Italian sports car would not like such a move. For some older milongueras, Sean describes having to lead them as if they had buttons on their back. Push this button, and they do back ochos. Pushing another produces a forward ocho. It was not how he liked to dance. If you're thinking of using this lead, then I'd ask what message would you like to be sending your partners? And would you encourage them to grow? For quite some time, followers from a neighboring city would rave about some guy who had moved there. One night he finally came to Pittsburgh. Let's say the women here were quite unimpressed with what felt to us was manhandling. Word is that he left disappointed that we didn't go gaga over him. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Mon, 11/22/10, Sergio Vandekier sergiovandekier...@hotmail.com wrote: He was saying that leading with the chest is a later invention and that old milongeros used the right hand lead. Anyone else is familiar with that? Tango has many techniques as it is a complex dance that has many different styles. The technique you use depends on the training you had and the style of tango you wish to dance. Most great dancers of the forties and fifties danced leading using the whole body. The right hand always played a big role in leading. There is absolutely nothing unpleasant about it, assuming that you know how to lead. The lead is extemely subtle, only perceived by the woman, never seen or noticed from outside the couple. The lead could be (like anything else) unpleasant if you do not know how to lead properly. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip
Doesn't sound like either to me (based on the rhumba video I saw last night and having danced cha-cha). I'm hearing the milonga rhythm. What you are folks hearing? Trini --- On Sat, 11/20/10, Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net wrote: From: Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip To: Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net, Tango-L Tango-L@mit.edu Date: Saturday, November 20, 2010, 12:26 AM Sounds too fast for Rumba. Sounds more like Cha cha. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip Actually, this is not a tango rhythmically, but a rumba. :) Common mistake... Rumba rhythm can be played to hint tango, but it is still a rumba. - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip This came as a nice surprise. Some tango in the new Burlesque movie with Cher. Check it out. http://www.daemonsmovies.com/2010/11/13/burlesque-movie-clip-with-cher/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Burlesque clip
This came as a nice surprise. Some tango in the new Burlesque movie with Cher. Check it out. http://www.daemonsmovies.com/2010/11/13/burlesque-movie-clip-with-cher/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Lookign for a song
Dude, no need for the attitude for someone's simple question. It's just tango. --- On Fri, 10/29/10, Sergey Kazachenko syarz...@gmail.com wrote: That wasn't hard, was it? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Male / Female - Defining the different roles.
--- On Fri, 10/29/10, Jack Dylan jackdylan...@yahoo.com wrote: Sean, you may well be right but I'd like to hear more about your views. Jack also wrote: The man is the leader and must surely take responsibility for the dance. Sean replies: I normally don't attempt to lead the woman. I dance, and I trust her to dance with me. Of course there are exceptions, such as if the woman is very insensitive, contrary, or just passive. Ironically, many women tell me that I am easier to follow than any of the other men, even some who are arguably better dancers. And it works as well with beginners as it does with very experienced dancers. Generally, I only have problems / frustration dancing with intermediate women who believe they need to be lead. I would like to propose the idea that there are more possibilities for two people to dance together than just lead and follow. It's my opinion that a lead-follow relationship is in fact the least satisfying of the possibilities that I have experienced. I'm not a fan of Michael's interleading either; it just sounds like double the trouble. Traditionally, it is the man's responsibility to choreograph the dance. But as far as I can tell, there is no need to lead the choreography. If I dance it, I have found that women will dance it with me. I would say that that is her responsibility, certainly not a passive role. (There must be other methods of communicating choreography besides lead-follow?) Jack: Yes, the lady can make great contributions with what happens between the steps and can, occasionally, if the man is sensitive, even influence the man's next lead Sean: It's my opinion that it is the woman's responsibility to make great contributions and influence the dance. There are limits to my charity and generosity. I want synergy. Last thought: If I dance, and she dances with me, then it follows (no pun intended) that she dances, and I dance with her as well. -- Credit Due: I wish I could remember which maestro first said I dance, and she dances with me., but I was too inexperienced to appreciate it, and I lost the origins in the jumble of 100s of workshop memories. Many of these ideas grew from seeds planted by two different Daniels from opposite ends of the tango sphere. Those seeds were nurtured by women who dance, rather than those who merely follow. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Male / Female - Defining the different roles.
Mario sopel...@yahoo.com wrote: One of the differences in roles that most impresses me is how the man is responsible for the dance itself. That is; he sets the cadence the movements the vital feel of the dance. Sean Here: This is the man's archetypal fantasy of tango. It is so important, that if you take it away from him, then what you have left might not even be tango. The problem then is, it has been repeated so many times that women are starting to believe it too. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Male / Female defining the roles
Well, Mario, that's certainly a perspective we haven't covered in depth on this list, have we? I actually agree with you, with the exception of what happens between really good friends. Most men I know would prefer to ask, in part, I'm sure, because women are usually terrible at accepting rejection when they are the ones asking. They'll pout, look discouraged, might raise a fit, whereas a man receiving a refusal will just smile and reassure a woman that her decision is fine. I also want to specify really good friends. There's a difference between friends at a milonga and friends you allow into your life. Personally, I prefer that the man ask me to dance, particularly if the man is really musically sensitive and a good dancer. It gives me a sense that he'll give it his all. More likely to get a dance that is memorable than okay. So what happens if there's a particular type of music I'd prefer for dancing with a man? I simply make myself more or less available for being asked. I like to at least give him the illusion that he picked the music. ;-) It's easier if I'm deejaying (hence, I will almost always say yes to the DJ whether he cabeceo's or asks verbally). If I'm not deejaying and the DJ is pretty good, then there's usually a flow that I can follow to pick my partners. If the DJ is bad, well, it's harder to get the right dances period. If I ask a man to dance, I hope it conveys my confidence in his dance (since I'm known as musically sensitive). I do like it when men indicate that they're hoping to dance milonga/Di Sarli/Biagi etc. or whatever with me. I see it as giving me permission to ask them to dance for those tandas. I've noticed that women will tend to zero in on certain guys when milongas or alternative tandas are played, probably because they are fewer good dancers and those tandas are not played as often as tango. Guys who really love milonga or alternative will narrow their field considerably, as well. When I see this happen, at least I know that people are developing some musical sensitivity, even if it's on a limited basis. What do other ladies prefer? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cabaceo SAYING NO
Trini, here. --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Balazs Gyenis gy...@hps.elte.hu wrote: . This made me think about how they could handle the problem and tried to come up with a solution which (a) could plausibly reduce refusal stress, Stress is a result of feeling a lack of control. Give a person a sense of control and stress goes down. And one always has a choice, even if it is to accept something or not. That’s my view of the world, anyway. Psychotherapists are welcome to provide their own knowledge. If you think about it, the asker gives control to the askee, so the stress is usually more on the person asking for the dance than the one being asked. The one being asked is in control. (b) does not lead to a permanent drop in the number of wanted dances, This may depend on why partners are sought after. Are they sought-after because they are really good, or are they sought-after because they’re easy targets? Those who are really good can pretty much call their own shots. Those who are easier targets are likely to see a drop in dances. Presumably, the women also will not verbally ask the men to dance, which further decreases opportunities to dance. Trying to get dances only by cabeceo is not easy, and the woman should be prepared to sit. But I suppose, one of the goals is to be asked less anyway. (c) does not count as policing of the community Skilled dancers who are on the dance floors day-in and day-out, so to speak, often also note who dances with whom. Some choose their partners or non-partners based on whether they sense how helpful dancers are to other dancers. It’s not policing, though. alternatives. I thought it's a nice touch to add waiting until the music starts. Nice. Even though it turns out to be effective in discouraging implementation and is a practical demonstration of Trini's claim about the influence of respected local authorities on the community, I'd still hope it is unintentional. I’ve always felt (and stated over the years) that if one gives people enough information, they will make the right choice for themselves. What I and others on the list have done is provided more information and insights from different perspectives. Better, I think, to be honest than patronizing. By the way, Balazs, it’s nice of you to be thinking of these issues and contributing to the tango community. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cabaceo SAYING NO
Sean here. I should know better, but here are a few of my thoughts on the subject. --- Patricia Katz wrote: I see many leaders with very good potential stay at a level that is below their ability; these leaders don't take workshops or privates when very good teachers are in town. It seems most women will dance with them, even the very good women and then these women complain about these leaders lack of navigation, embrace, not listening to the music etc. Sean says: The fact that these women complain about their partners does not suggest to me that they are better dancers than their men. --- Patricia Katz wrote: these followers feel that if they refuse then they won't dance and it seems they would prefer to dance with a poor leader than sit out for a number of tandas. Sean says: There is the proof. These women need a serious reality check about their own abilities. I've talked to dozens of skilled dancers. But I don't think I have ever met one who would prefer to dance with a poor leader than sit out. (That doesn't mean that there aren't other compelling social reasons for accepting a dance, but in his or her heart, a good dancer would prefer to sit.) Forget about the complaints from these women. When they accept a dance, they get exactly the dance they deserve. As for this whole card/cabaceo issue, I wonder if it is all over a single girl who can't say no? It is certainly not a widespread problem in Pittsburgh. I frequently see women turn down/avoid dancing with men here. And the sub-par dancer aggressively pursuing the skilled dancer is far more likely (90% or more) to be a woman than a man. Likewise, men are more likely than women to be dancing with someone below their own ability. The rant: All too frequently, women will tell me that the only time that they feel like they are really dancing is when they dance with me. They unfairly expect every other man to be able to create that illusion. So even though a man may be far above her level, he is still not good enough - in her mind. I would say to those women, that if you depend on the man to make you feel like you are dancing, then you are not at a level where you can judge your partners' ability, and you should be grateful for any partner you get. The women that I want to dance with manage to really dance, regardless of the man. Even if the man is far less skilled than she. Just sayin'. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] cabeceo
Let’s recap a little. Balazs asked for advice concerning a card and how to introduce the cabeceo into a difficult environment. I think we’ve established that using the card as originally presented pretty much sucks. However, organizers using it on a table would make it acceptable. We have not addressed the issue of his idea of a “policy”. I don’t think that concept would apply on a personal level. It would on an organizational level to avoid discrimination, etc. But I think someone who says “it’s my policy to refuse all dances not asked by cabeceo” would just be seen as inflexible and weird. Besides, I know people who said they had that policy, couldn’t get dances, and caved. Even Argentines have become used to asking to dance or being asked to dance while in the States. We’ve addressed the issue of women refusing/negotiating dances verbally in a nice way. As for Patricia’s request of telling a man that he’ll get dances if he gets better, I don’t think that’s really possible. We also have to accept that people will work only as much as they want to or are capable of. What I have done is tell a man, “We can dance one dance together” but not make reasons why he’ll only get one dance from me or indicate that he's unpleasant. I’ll also make sincere compliments about what I liked better about his dancing since the last time I danced with him several months ago. All you can do is try to inspire, not make him focus on his bad dance ability. As for addressing a difficult environment, I’m not sure what constitutes a difficult environment. Are organizers totally opposed to the cabeceo? Are the men pushy? Are they just not informed? My experience is that if people are informed by someone seen as an authority figure, they’ll follow along. All it usually takes is information. Information can be disseminated by emails, discussion, word-of-mouth. The best bet for introducing the cabeceo into a difficult environment is to enlist the organizer(s) and have them announce the change. They can also ask a visiting instructor to introduce it in workshops. Teachers can make a game of it in a pre-milonga lesson (or regular lesson). An individual who cannot enlist an organizer to the cause can hold her own “Buenos Aires style” milonga, where the rules are to use the cabeceo. Maybe a dollar goes to a charity every time someone asks for a dance (or maybe that’s the fee for the dance). Be creative. A woman can also catch a man’s eye and smile, as Jack pointed out, thereby encouraging the man to use the cabeceo. But she’ll still have to deal with refusing those who ask verbally. In Pittsburgh, teachers introduced the cabeceo into their beginning classes. They reinforced it with their students during the weekly milonga. Tango gypsies used it with each other. But, as Tine pointed out, there are those for whom the cabeceo is lost and they will still ask for a dance. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] cabeceo
--- On Mon, 10/18/10, Balazs Gyenis gy...@hps.elte.hu wrote: (I'm a bit confused to hear, though, that on one hand followers need to grow up to deal with social pressure and on the other hand they can't be expected to follow a policy.) Just giving a reality check. I should also point out that handing out cards or literature needs to be cleared with the organizer first. I personally would not allow it because I want my guests to remember what a nice time they had, not that someone (or several) handed them a card. Nor would I want to deal with cards laying around at the end of the night. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] introducing the cabeceo (card)
Balazs, please feel free to share this post with your tanguera friend(s). The real issue, here, is that your friend doesn’t seem to respect herself to tell a man “no”. Argentine tangueras do not use the cabeceo to hide behind. They are aggressive in using it. Many men have told me that they are the ones who really run the milongas. She is better off confronting this issue herself than trying to force other people to accommodate her. Does she want to be shy the rest of her life? Wouldn’t she rather be self-confident and able to turn down a dance with ease? Fifteen years ago, I was a painfully shy person (hard to believe, I know). In this dance, your friend will run into men who will hit on her, may try to grope her, will be physically rough with her, may try to undermine a relationship she has, etc. Tango is not sanitary. She has to learn to set her boundaries and respect herself enough to do so. Nor is she responsible for other people’s feelings. If she can say “no” at a nightclub, she can do it at a milonga. Your friend has probably had some practice turning down men since high school. They’re called excuses. They might be true, they might not. Same thing in tango. Her feet hurt, she’s tired, she promised this tanda to someone else and is waiting for him, she’s talking to someone right now, she hurt her arm playing tennis and needs to rest it. If she’s turned someone down but someone she wants to dance with asks her, she just needs to tell him that and make a date for the next tanda. Generally, men have had more practice with rejection. They can handle a nice rejection without breaking like china dolls. If she’s uncomfortable with “no”, she may be comfortable with negotiating. She can say with a smile “not this tanda, but perhaps later?” She needs to stick to it, but it gives her more control over when and how long she dances with him. If she keeps track of the number of songs in a tanda, she can get it down to only one dance with him until the cortina comes in. She can say that she’d like to wait until she hears “our music”. Imagine how special he will feel when she finally comes to him for a dance. A woman who is good also needs to understand that she will have a big effect in influencing the quality of the men’s dancing in her community. If she expects them to come up to her standard. If she doesn’t lower her own. She needs to be the muse. If she wants to help the men in the community improve their dance, she needs to learn to say “no”. A friend of mine recalled how he once asked me to dance a Pugliese tanda with him and I turned him down. He realized, even then, that it wouldn’t quite be right anyway. When he asked me again about a year or so later and I said yes, then he felt that he had finally become a good dancer. “No” doesn’t have to mean something negative. It can also be an inspiration. And when that “yes” comes along, it can be a memory worth savoring. I remember the yes’s that made me feel great, and there were plenty of no’s before them. I’m sure we all have those memories. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] introducing the cabeceo (card)
At end of the day, it's still my responsibility as a parent to get my kids educated, regardless of the environment. People can look at environmental issues as challenges to overcome. People have come from difficult backgrounds to rise about environmental difficulties. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Sun, 10/17/10, Balazs Gyenis gy...@hps.elte.hu wrote: The real issue, here, is that your friend doesn’t seem to respect herself to tell a man “no”. Thanks Trini. I'm sure these are all good advices, although they sound to me a bit disconcerting in this context. An analogy may help. Suppose you bring your children to a new school. As it turns out students of this school do worse than students of other schools. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: introducing the cabeceo (card)
It doesn't take years of experience or a certain reputation to suggest a man wait until the music starts before accepting a tanda. It's usually just that the man hasn't thought about it. He's accustomed to either yes or no, not maybe. If he gets the same let's hear the music first from women, regardless of their skill level, he'll figure it out. Typically, the man's initial reaction is perhaps she doesn't like the music, so he doesn't realize that it might be him and he won't feel so bad if she turns him down. White lies have their place. Personally, if I was a leader who received a such a card, I'd laugh (internally, of course). I might consider it an insult that the woman trusted me with her body but not enough with her feelings to let me know that she'd like to try the cabeceo next time. Maybe I'm just more concerned about the environment. Millongas are SOCIAL occasions. People need to bring their social skills to it, not just rules. Are we so numbed by the internet and Facebook and Twitter that we have forgotten the art of conversation? Of socializing? Of delivering lines to acheive a certain effect? Women have wiles. There are times when they should use them. Trini --- On Fri, 10/15/10, Balazs Gyenis gy...@hps.elte.hu wrote: From: Balazs Gyenis gy...@hps.elte.hu Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: introducing the cabeceo (card) To: Tango-L tango-l@mit.edu Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 8:46 PM Hi all, Thanks for the public and private feedback so far! Why doesn't the woman just tell the man after the tanda? If a man asks me to dance before the music starts, I just say let's see what the music is, and then we'll decide together. I've never had a man repeat the same mistake when asking me to dance at another time. If you are a dancer and teacher with 15+ years of tango experience, resolute to refuse dances, and willing to sit through milongas without dancing more than a few tandas, you don't need solutions like this. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] introducing the cabeceo (card)
Excellent post, Tine. And accurate, based on my observations. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Forever Tango on DWTS - video
Here's the video of last night's performance. They really wowed the crowd. Stage tango, but they did show some nice turns. I'm guessing the blond was Cheryl. Her posture wasn't as good as the others. The death drop looked out of place, but Juan Victoria's finish was impressive. http://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=U_JsqZaHA0c Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] introducing the cabeceo (card)
Sounds like an unnecessary waste of paper and a way of making the cabeceo seem more exotic than it really is. Why doesn't the woman just tell the man after the tanda? The good leaders will also tell you that it's often the women who need to be handed the cards. I suppose she could always put the card down her bra. If a man asks me to dance before the music starts, I just say let's see what the music is, and then we'll decide together. I've never had a man repeat the same mistake when asking me to dance at another time. The trick is not to make him think that it's his dancing or that he's not good enough. Chances are the good leaders and followers in a community already know about the cabeceo and use it in addition to asking. I don't think it would be right to ask them to use it exclusively because these good dancers are usually the community's teachers/organizers who typically do a lot of socializing with someone before asking them to dance. It's not realistic to have them suddenly start nodding their heads toward the dance floor instead of just simply asking. Rather than giving these folks a card, I'd suggest playfully nodding heads/making eyes at them or some exaggeration to let them know that the next time you're asked, you'd appreciate a cabeceo. The cabeceo usually starts between friends and it grows from there. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] forever tango on DWTS, someone who thinks like me
It's a show. C'mon! Sean has a nice way of explaining it. If you watch ER on TV, you know perfectly well that the actors are not real doctors or nurses or patients. They convey or represent what real doctors or nurses or patients do/think/feel. Show dancers do the same thing. They externalize the internal things in tango that someone on the outside who only watches can't experience themselves. As someone who's had to demo for a significant portion of 60 minute shows, I've found it hard to try to convey the emotional aspects of different pieces. Or to differentiate the feeling of a vals from a tango to people who are hearing the music for the first time. Sometimes you just have to exaggerate some things. The show tango from DWTS was a lot better than some of the cabaret stuff I've seen on other shows, where it's just a bunch of athletics. But to each, his own. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Forever Tango on DWTS
Forever Tango is an ensemble piece, so Cheryl (who I haven't seen) is probably in just a couple of dances. Maybe subbing in for one of the women. From what I've seen of rehearsal photos, Juan Victoria will be reprising their finale (the death drop and slide to the bandoneon) as part of the performance. Looks like Marcela Duran will be in it, too. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Tue, 10/12/10, Steve Littler s...@stevelittler.com wrote: On 10/12/2010 1:05 PM, macfro...@aol.com wrote: Michael, the ABC videos, or any videos on a station's site, are for only the continental U.S. I suggest bit torrents if you live elsewhere. cherie I think someone will probably put it on YouTube. P.S. Cheryl Burke will be starring in Forever Tango, during its San Francisco run. I guess that says something about how the style of tango danced in the show. Don't misunderstand me, she's a fantastic ballroom show dancer. Cheryl said last night that she had spent a month in B.A. taking lessons in A.T. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Forever Tango on DWTS
On Tuesday, Oct. 12, the cast of Forever Tango is going to be on Dancing with the Stars, 9pm. The promo I read says that Cheryl Burke from the show will be performing with the cast. I usually don't watch this show, but it could be interesting this week. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] floor craft -2
--- On Wed, 10/6/10, Mario sopel...@yahoo.com wrote: However, it can happen that the slow couple’s leader is insensitive to the situation and does not make way for those behind. What is the leader of the couple behind to do, as he cannot touch him or tell him vocally to move out of the way? Javier’s suggestion is for him to click his fingers – rather like using your car horn in traffic! One solution a friend of mine came up with, which I liked, was that he turned his back to the guy and slowly backed up so that his butt brushed the other guy's butt. Problem solved. Doesn't follow Javier's rule, but, oh well. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
I agree with Jeff. It seems that there is a lot of projection going on in this thread, some of which may be accurate. A sense of judgement seems to underlie this discussion, as if one is better than the other. That doesn't help anything. It is what it is. There are some people who only dance well in open-embrace. It doesn't mean that there's a fear of close embrace. Even if it does, so what? Let them dance open. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Tue, 9/21/10, Jeff j...@jqhome.net wrote: From: Jeff j...@jqhome.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace To: tango-l@mit.edu Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010, 6:22 PM On 09/17/2010 08:38 AM, macfro...@aol.com wrote: Ok, I'll play Devil's Advocate. In many cultures -- including Anglo-Saxon ones -- respecting personal space is the most basic way to show you acknowledge that the other person is indeed a person. Crossing into somebody's personal space without their permission is one of the easiest ways to register contempt for them. In many cultures (including the US) invading someone's personal space is exactly how to pick a fight. So yes, in other countries it might not been seen in the same way, but the fact of the matter is that this is strongly ingrained for a good reason and if the dancers are having a hard time overcoming it, it is most likely due to the fact they are showing very polite and respectful treatment of their partner, which is a good thing. Your assessment that they are afraid of the embrace strikes me as fatuous and culturally grievously insensitive. I'm all for understanding and embracing other cultures, but it should work both ways, shouldn't it? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Basics
In this case, they were still freezing when I was just leading regular molinetes. Freezing without spiraling out of the gancho. Voguing. I had to tell them all they they were still responsible for dancing to the music themselves. When I got them to just dance without thinking about doing the gancho, they weren't as bad and could do the gancho more fluidly. Too often women don't realize how much they can contribute or restrict the dance. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Tue, 9/21/10, Myk Dowling poli...@gmail.com wrote: From: Myk Dowling poli...@gmail.com Well, Huck, after the workshop I attended yesterday, Sunday, as a leader, the primary basic I had in mind was just for people to friggin' MOVE. It was an advanced workshop on ganchos and the followers all had the same problem of freezing as if they were deer in the headlights. Every single one of them! I don't want to be mean, but I often work on the assumption that if every single person I dance with is not doing what I want them to do, then the fault could well be in my leading. Myk, in Canberra ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] swayback
Beginning followers often begin with a swayback posture that needs to be corrected. Sometimes when they are told that they need to take a longer step, they interpret that as taking a long step down the dance floor, so a swayback is their natural response to taking a long step. However, they need to be told to make their bodies long, that their leg starts up in their torso, not just the leg itself. Some women think their leg starts from the middle of the thigh. Proper body mapping will encourage better posture. The other reason women may develop a swayback is to avoid being stepped on by their partners. If men aren't taught to wait until after she moves her foot, she's likely to get stepped on. As for alpha females (or alpha male), dancers are not always capable of figuring out who the real alphas are. To some, it's the flashiest dancers that look like the alphas, even if they are bad dancers. And, alas, those who need the most work on their dance aren't the ones going to class or workshops. Can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Basics
Well, Huck, after the workshop I attended yesterday, Sunday, as a leader, the primary basic I had in mind was just for people to friggin' MOVE. It was an advanced workshop on ganchos and the followers all had the same problem of freezing as if they were deer in the headlights. Every single one of them! Dance. It's movement. Keeping the beat would be nice, too. But moving is critical. If you were to have asked me Saturday, I probably would have given more high-falutin' answers. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Mon, 9/20/10, Huck Kennedy tempeh...@gmail.com wrote: Keith Elshaw ke...@totango.net wrote: Folks make good points based on what they know, who they are, and how they feel. At this moment. You may say what your thoughts are on what the tango basics are, which is the topic at hand. What do you think are the tango basics that should be learned, Keith? I'm not picking up anything about that at all from what you wrote above. A whole bunch of us have given our ideas, what are yours? Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
Your shampoo not working for you? Try Pantene. :o I would think wearing a hat would cause one to unconsciously tighten the muscles in the neck, which would inhibit the spiraling of the spine. It's a subtle but important thing. Trini --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Sergey Kazachenko syarz...@gmail.com wrote: And most ladies (at least 20 cm shorter than me) didn't have a problem at all with my hat. Sergey ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] recommended CD burning programs
Hi Ruben and everyone, Thanks for finding these links and also for the private emails, as well. Someone sent me the following link that is great for learning more about burning CD's. The outline form allows for a lot of technical details but is still easily readable for non-techies. http://www.cdrfaq.org/ Happy tango listening to all! Trini --- On Fri, 8/20/10, Ruben Malan rubenma...@comcast.net wrote: The best performing media player is: (or may be) http://www.techradar.com/news/software/applications/the-best-performing-media-player-for-2010-683569?artc_pg=2 I personally prefer the free KML player. And the best Windows CD burning program is: http://cd-burning-software-review.toptenreviews.com It is true. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] recommended CD burning programs
Hi all, I'm a little tired of spending time burning CD's and finding bugs in them. Can anyone recommend a good CD burning software for an HP with windows 7? I'd also like to make labels, and since my new computer has Lightscribe, I thought I'd try burning the song titles onto the disk. Also, do you have a preferred brand of CD-R's? I heard that ones with a gold dye last longer. Any other suggestions on what to look for? Currently, I've just been using Windows Media Player to make playlists and for DJ'ing mostly. (Don't laugh, I'm still in the long process of trying to get my music organized and revamped to mp3's.) Thanks, Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] milonga revisited
--- On Tue, 8/17/10, Huck Kennedy tempeh...@gmail.com wrote: The six-count basic milonga step for the leader was back right, side left, right forward cross, left forward, right side, and close. There was wiggle room to pivot around in there a bit, but the sequence both started and ended with the leader facing SE. A four-count basic milonga step for the leader was back right, side left, right forward cross, and close, again, starting and ending facing SE. This has been my understanding for years, but also with a two-count basic, which is just a step and close. Essentially, the 6-count basic is the 4-count basic with the 2-count basic added on. None of these figures seemed to have names. They were just described as counts to me. However, recently, some have been describing the baldosa as the basic step, even having it mentioned as such in Wikipedia. I think they are referring to a step in which the man faces down the line of dance and does the following: - back step with right - side step with left - forward outside step with right - forward inline step with left - side step with right - close with left and switch weight. The back step and side step are sometimes left out. Although I would view this as a common step and basic to the dance, I would not refer to it as the basic step for milonga. The latter is how more people are referring it this figure. This is essentially the same as the 6-count step, but for whatever reason, it's being taught as going down the line of dance. The issue for me is that by ignoring the orientation (as described by Huck), the milonga I see in many places today looks too much like tango. With the correct orientation, then it's much easier to get into many steps that are really only done in milonga (basically, grapevine variations). I love those steps, but I just don't see it as much as I used to. From my experience, it seems to be Americans using this terminology, not the Argentines. Unfortunately, I've noticed that what I've seen more and more of is teachers at festivals who are more credentialed as friends of the organizers than credentials as teachers. While I can appreciate the whole networking aspect and think it's fine to a degree, I have to wonder if organizers have lost sight of how to best serve their audience. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
--- On Sun, 8/15/10, Ruben Malan rubenma...@comcast.net wrote: 5) With an increasing percentage we are also observing the attendance of married couples ... I love it when my husband chases the opposite sex at milongas - especially when the only one he is chasing is me. And we both have gotten hit on. It's an easy thing to say no. The guys who are really good at flirting do so in such a way that they open the door to the possibility by making her feel special. (Take note, single guys). Piropos? Cafe milonguero or cafe amigos? El duende? The tango embrace as a hug? This list has had multiple threads on these issues. I'm not suggesting that chasing the opposite sex is the main reason for going to a milonga. But it's there and flavors the dance. Without it, you might as well switch to ballet or some other performance-oriented dance. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
I think, Ruben, that both you and Sergio may just be unaware of your own natural charms, given your backgrounds, and may take for granted something that most men must work on. Alas for the North American male who has to debate as to whether he should open the door for a woman. South American men, I've noticed, don't seem to have that issue at all. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] milonga revisited
Hi all, A few weeks ago, I fretted about whether folks were still teaching the man's orientation with his back toward the center of the circle. Most of the milonga workshops I have attended in recent years had the man facing the line of dance and the focus has been on traspie. A search of Youtube (even on dancers like Facundo) did not yield a lot of evidence of the man's orientation, so it was difficult for me to show my students this style of dancing. Today, though, I was pleased to find a video that clearly shows classic milonga steps being done with this orientation. To me, this is what makes milonga more milonga than tango. It's a demo, so they're traveling all over the place, but the vocabularly speaks for itself. And, of course, Geraldine's dance pedigree is well-known. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp4y7qOEkDIfeature=related Enjoy! Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Social-ethical behaviours and protocols
Oh, come on. Chasing the opposite sex is what gave popularity to the tango in the first place. I seriously doubt that the first milongueros were thinking about art as they were practicing with each other. I asked a man the other night what got him into tango (I had assumed it was through salsa. He replied that he hadn't danced anything before (including salsa) and that a girl asked him if he was interested in learning. He thought he could learn few moves and impress her. She's gone, but he's continued and become a popular leader. There are countless stories along those lines. People take up all sorts of hobbies hoping to meet people and find love. Some find it. What's wrong with that? Trini --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Ruben Malan rubenma...@comcast.net wrote: Unfortunately, some A.T. dancers are attending milongas with a goal in mind: TO MAKE A CATCH. This demeanor perhaps in my opinion, could dim the success of tango and milongas, discouraging decent and well motivated dancers, and create a bad image of our noble activity. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors
My observation is that a couple who dances a lot with each other (more than 3 tandas) are either: 1) interested in each other, 2) so bad that no one else wants to dance with them, or 3) so much better than everyone else that they're not really interested in dancing with others. As to appropriate behavior, what happens on the dance floor, stays on the dance floor. If there's no interest for after the milonga, then don't carry it off of the floor. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] FACUNDO POSADAS celebrates his 70th Birthday
Hi Sergey, I think Facundo is just ornamenting, but I've never heard a name attached to that type of ornament. Trini --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Sergey Kazachenko syarz...@gmail.com wrote: Speaking of Facundo, is there a name to the step he does at about 1:48 into this video while leading his partner into ochos adelante? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH36j6v5qPg ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Music preferences
I, too, have gravitated toward music with lyrics over the years. My interest with lyrics started with the movie Tango by Carlos Sauros, specifically the scene of two singers performing Flores de alma at a dance rehearsal. I just really enjoyed the romantic quality the pair brought to the piece, which brought it to life. Before that I really didn't like music with lyrics at all (though I was listening to crap at the time, too). D'Agostino/Vargas has also become a favorite for the soulfulness of Vargas. Lately, I've been enjoying the lightness of singers Dante and Martel of de Angelis' orchestra. Part of the appeal of music with lyrics, I think, is its simpler musical structure (chorus verse) rather than the ABC structure of instrumentals. The verse portion tends to ground the music and makes it more predictable, more obvious of where the music is heading. Someone recently asked me to play more music that was lyrical at the milongas. Funny thing was that he mentioned my playing too many vocalists for his tastes. He's from another country, so I'm thinking it's a language thing. And that he really isn't that musically aware. It would be nice if there were more tango music videos out there, instead of mainly tango dance videos. The tango singers I've seen tend to perform to music not played at milongas. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Online AM Tango Radio Station in Bs As
This is great! Thank you! While we're on music, I've decided to try out some tango karaoke to help with my Spanish and learn more about the music. I've seen some DVD's on Amazon.com. Any suggestions on which ones might be good? Trini --- On Wed, 7/28/10, Nitin Kibe nitink...@hotmail.com wrote: http://www.amtango.com.ar/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango marathons
I met someone (under 30) the other night from Finland, who was a friend of a tanguera. We naturally tried to coax her into learning Argentine tango, but she refused because in Finland, tango was for old people. Even though she knew there was a difference with Argentine tango (and our community has a lot of young people that she met), her mind was set. I'm guessing that means that as it used to be in Argentine tango, young people are not interested in learning Finnish tango. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Tue, 7/20/10, johnofbris...@tiscali.co.uk johnofbris...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Looks like somebody has beaten me to publishing a link to my footage of a Finnish tango competition. My blog is here: http://finnishtango. blogspot.com which will tell you possibly more than you want to know. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Following
I believe that your instructor was trying to convey that women must be active in the dance, not passive. She must not be a piece of furniture on wheels that the men push around. The difficulties in leading and following come at different times in the learning cycle. For men, it comes earlier. It was nice that the woman acknowledge that leading is difficult because it is. There's a lot to know. For women, the difficulty comes later. It is possible that the woman you argued with hasn't reached that stage yet. It sounds to me as if she might not have found her own dance, yet. How many women find and own their dance? In my experience, not many. Women may become technically good, but that ownership is often missing. Is it wrong for her to have not reached that staged? Not really, especially if all she is wanting is to get dances at a milonga with the average dancer. If, however, she wants to get dances with really good dancers, that's a different story. I don't know your dance, so I certainly can't comment on what you should or shouldn't be thinking. Three years, though, is not a long time, and there's plenty of time for you to find your dance. Just enjoy your learning experience. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Mon, 7/12/10, WILL MORROW will...@msn.com wrote: Do followers who buy into this stereotypical concept not recognize it as an artificial performance standard based on (most of the time, their own) sub-standard expectation? Just as importantly, do instructors who buy into and teach it not recognize this idea of a subservient, inferior perspective for what it is? Just a thought. I'd be interested to read how the subscribers here see the role of the follower. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The Basic Elements of Tango
I agree with you on this. Just because volcadas and colgadas are more common doesn't mean that they are basic. There are more important things to learn that are much more versatile, such as syncopas, enrosques, barridas (which are not listed) or certain combinations. Since the week includes several teachers, however, the organizer is probably trying to cast a wide net to ensure the proper level of dancer is allowed. I am not sure if his description would work, though. It's always an issue at festivals. Breaking intermediate down to 3 levels (low, solid, high) might be better. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Wed, 7/7/10, RonTango ronta...@rocketmail.com wrote: In addressing the level of workshops at the recent Chicago Tango Week (http://chicagotangoweek.org/schedule.pdf): The assertion is that “ganchos, volcadas, colgadas, and sacadas” are basic elements of tango. Assuming this refers to social tango (“a few miles on the crowded dance floors”), there is a problem of misrepresentation of tango here. By these standards the milongueros in Buenos Aires have not yet reached the intermediate level, despite some having danced 40-50 years. This is ever so clearly indicated in this recent blog post that provides links to a dozen videos of milongueros dancing in the milongas of Buenos Aires: http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/milongueros-dancing-tango-in-the-milongas-of-buenos-aires/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] zigzag versus straight
Has anyone else noticed the change how people are teaching basic milonga? I'm talking specifically about the zigzag pattern down the floor with the man's back toward the center of the circle versus the man facing the line of dance. I prefer the zigzag which comes naturally from the grapevine. This was how I was first taught almost 15 years ago back when teachers were mostly Argentine. However, I'm not seeing it taught as much. Comments? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Recognizing Tango Music
--- On Thu, 6/10/10, Myk Dowling poli...@gmail.com wrote: A rhythm is a pattern of strong and weak beats overlaying the basic time signature. And that's the difference between tango and other dance music. Other dance music has a specific rhythm that must be followed for the dance to fit. Tango has a variable rhythm, and it is that variation that is one of the most vital aspects of tango music. Thanks for clarifying, Myk. Yet it strikes me that people like to dance to these alternative music that has this same boring repetitive rhythm and call it tango. Well, the dance, anyway though not the music. I haven't listened closely too much to the electronic tango put out by Bajofondo or the Gotan Project for this type of thing. Has anyone? And if so, what do you think? By the way, if one were to take the melody of Mary had a Little Lamb and make it a tango, what rhythm would one make? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Recognizing Tango Music
--- On Thu, 6/10/10, Myk Dowling poli...@gmail.com wrote: Ah, but Trini, the difference is that La Cumparsita has been forced to comply to a rock rhythm, rather than having the free rhythmic structure of a tango. As soon as you bind it to a specific rhythm, you break the tango. But, Myk, would it be wrong, though, for a tango to have a specific rhythm? It could be very boring, but couldn't it still be defined as a tango? It strikes me that older pieces would have had a repetitive structure. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
