[Vo]:Problems with energy calculation Rossi device
Hello In figure 6 of the article http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3144960.ece/BINARY/Download+the+report+by+Kullander+and+Ess%C3%A9n+%28pdf%29 it is stated that the waterflow is 6.47 l/ hour= about 2 ml/sec. This is about the waterflow of a espressomachine. When 4kW is added to such a waterflow the temperature would rise instantaneously to 100 degr C. The curve in figure 6 would have to rise vertically. If only 400 Watts is added the waterflow the temp would rise 50 degr C in temperature continously. The curve in figure 6 rises in about 3 minutes 30 degr C ( steepest part). This would compare to a power of only a few watts. Can anybody look at these calculations and figure out what is wrong? Further it would be interesting to know if water can flow through the chimney of the reactor directly into the black tube. To figure out what is going on one have to add a substance (dye) to the water and see if the dye can be seen in the condensed water. If non vaporised water is carried to the end of the black tube this will have consequences for the calculation of excess heat. Peter van Noorden
[Vo]:Current understanding of Boron/Hydrogen reaction found to be wrong...
http://research.duke.edu/sites/default/files/tri-alpha-paper.pdf Instead of one hi-Energy alpha and two low-Energy alphas, they found just the opposite, two hi-E and one Lo-E alpha... sarcasm ON Geez, seems like we're learning all kinds of things that mainstream science has wrong... sarcasm OFF This likely makes this form of fusion much more interesting/attractive... but will this, and all other forms of nuclear power, be necessary with the eCat on the horizon? -Mark
RE: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
For the sake of linguistic brevity I would like offer up the suggestion that Rossi's smaller e-Cat configuration... what has been called e-Kittens (a wonderfully descriptive linguistic representation, by the way!) be abbreviated to one of the following terms: e-kit (Short for e-kittins) or e-cub (a wild cat's cub) Just a suggestion. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
From Robin, ... Regarding the hydrino theory, my first impression would be to conclude (with absolutely no math to back this conclusion up with) that not enough hydrogen was consumed (into hydrinos) that would explain the massive amount of heat recorded. I hope someone can clarify whether my uneducated assumption on this point is valid or not. (I suspect it's incorrect.) The maximum amount of energy obtainable from Hydrino formation is, not coincidentally, exactly half the mass energy of an electron, i.e. 255 keV/H atom. Maximally shrinking 0.11 gm of H2 would therefore yield 752 kWh of energy, about ~30 times what was actually measured. Furthermore the calculation of the amount of Hydrogen measured assumes that none was absorbed by the Ni during filling of the reactor, which probably isn't true. IOW there may actually have been more than 0.11 gm of H present in the reactor. Woah! ...~30 times what was measured. Did I read that correctly? You're theorizing that hydrino formation can't be entirely ruled out as the source of the heat? I seem to recall that might contradict something Jones theorized in a previous post? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:Re: Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening
News of prospective new Fermilab discovery breaking in many sources. google(fermilab new particle) Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
[Vo]:EVWorld coverage of Rossi
See: http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1977
[Vo]:Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13000253 Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
[Vo]:Rossi's chimney
Looking at the new pictures... The chimney area has lead sheet in with = the thermal insulation. Why would he need Pb there? I would think that only the reactor area = would need to be shielded. What am I missing? Does he expect some radiation from the vertical = section that I though was just for=20 steam? Dennis C
Re: [Vo]:Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening
It is interesting to note that at least one 5D theory (Dynamic theory) predicted a particle of 154 GeV/c2 several years (15??) ago. Dennis C -- From: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 2:38 PM To: Vortex-L vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13000253 Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
epus? On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 8:48 AM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: For the sake of linguistic brevity I would like offer up the suggestion that Rossi's smaller e-Cat configuration... what has been called e-Kittens (a wonderfully descriptive linguistic representation, by the way!) be abbreviated to one of the following terms: e-kit (Short for e-kittins) or e-cub (a wild cat's cub) Just a suggestion. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Re: Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening
Presently sigma three. Looking for sigma five. Then we have a game changer! T On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: News of prospective new Fermilab discovery breaking in many sources. google(fermilab new particle) Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
[Vo]:Careful Cravens
It looks like the pods in Alien: http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/botanist-finds-mysterious-plant-in-nm Botanist finds mysterious plant in NM Updated: Saturday, 02 Apr 2011, 10:35 AM MDT Published : Saturday, 02 Apr 2011, 10:35 AM MDT ROSWELL, N.M. (KRQE) - Little green men are no strangers to Roswell, but now one New Mexico botanist says a little green plant has an out-of-this world connection to New Mexico. David Salman said he was on a seed hunting trip near Roswell when he noticed a faint glow coming from what appeared to be a meteor crater. He said it turned out the light was coming from a small patch of carnivorous cacti. Salman said he found a cactus that eats bugs, glows and probably came to earth on a meteor. He says he scooped up some samples to see if someone could identify them, so far no one has been able to. end See piccy. T (second try)
[Vo]:Careful Cravens
It looks like the pods in Alien: http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/botanist-finds-mysterious-plant-in-nm Botanist finds mysterious plant in NM Updated: Saturday, 02 Apr 2011, 10:35 AM MDT Published : Saturday, 02 Apr 2011, 10:35 AM MDT ROSWELL, N.M. (KRQE) - Little green men are no strangers to Roswell, but now one New Mexico botanist says a little green plant has an out-of-this world connection to New Mexico. David Salman said he was on a seed hunting trip near Roswell when he noticed a faint glow coming from what appeared to be a meteor crater. He said it turned out the light was coming from a small patch of carnivorous cacti. Salman said he found a cactus that eats bugs, glows and probably came to earth on a meteor. He says he scooped up some samples to see if someone could identify them, so far no one has been able to. end See piccy. T
Re: [Vo]:Re: Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening
A public announcement before the paper is peer reviewed. I am shocked! What has become of the scientific method? ;-) (sarcasm) Harry - Original Message From: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net To: Vortex-L vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 4:45:06 PM Subject: [Vo]:Re: Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening News of prospective new Fermilab discovery breaking in many sources. google(fermilab new particle) Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Ongoing Rossi Blog stuff
William : My understanding is that the reactor volume in the original E-CAT was around 1 liter or 1000cc and that the new smaller module has a volume of about 1/20th of a liter or 50cc. Is this correct? Also, what is the standard power rating of this smaller module? Is it officially 2.5 kW? April 6th, 2011 at 7:20 PM Dear Mr William: The answer is yes to both questions. A.R. - - - - April 7th, 2011 at 7:42 AM Dear Mr. Mats Heijkenskjold: To change the charge we change the whole module, then the change of the charge is made from us in our factory. The 1 MW plant has more modules than necessary, so that they are changed in turn when it is time. Good question,
[Vo]:Are you falling for it?
Here is Rossi's next stunt :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W46UMzFEU24 As you know he is a miracle worker, except for one little detail ... He DECREASES the volume of a miracle reactor by a factor of 20 and the heat only goes down by a factor of 3. And he is just noticing this! LOL. More Rossi BS - let's face it, this guy is deceptive, and could be delusional. He is trying to hide something by this latest publicity stunt with the Swedes. It is pure 'misdirection'. There is no way to believe anything he says. But he is clever to handle it this way, since many who see this stunt will applaud him for what may seem to be a more open kind of show-and-tell. But the intent can only be to mislead other researchers who are scrambling to replicate the results. No way do you have a reverse economy-of-scale at this magnitude, and then do not follow up by going even smaller. No way do you do a public demo of a larger unit that is seven times less robust. Rossi is most likely showing off past things that did NOT work well, or at all - in order to protect the larger device that does work well. The large unit is the only one tested in public (semi-public) - and possibly it is the minimum size factor that works at all. But Rossi would like to encourage the hundred or so replication attempts which are in progress now - to go with the smaller size, instead since he knows that there is a critical mass threshold, and they are doomed from the start, if they go with the 50 cc. Jones -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com Looking at the pictures, it seems to be fairly simple mechanically. The chamber is 50cc and not 1 liter as we were made to believe. Two different devices. This 4 kW version has a 50 cc chamber. The original 10 kW version had a 1 L chamber.
Re: [Vo]:Re: Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening
A public announcement before the paper is peer reviewed. I am shocked! What has become of the scientific method? ;-) (sarcasm) Harry http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/archive_2011/today11-04-07_CDFpeakresult.html Harry - Original Message From: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net To: Vortex-L vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 4:45:06 PM Subject: [Vo]:Re: Stunning high energy discovery possibly happening News of prospective new Fermilab discovery breaking in many sources. google(fermilab new particle) Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Problems with energy calculation Rossi device
In reply to P.J van Noorden's message of Thu, 7 Apr 2011 11:19:06 +0200: Hi, [snip] Hello In figure 6 of the article http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3144960.ece/BINARY/Download+the+report+by+Kullander+and+Ess%C3%A9n+%28pdf%29 it is stated that the waterflow is 6.47 l/ hour= about 2 ml/sec. This is about the waterflow of a espressomachine. When 4kW is added to such a waterflow the temperature would rise instantaneously to 100 degr C. The curve in figure 6 would have to rise vertically. If only 400 Watts is added the waterflow the temp would rise 50 degr C in temperature continously. The curve in figure 6 rises in about 3 minutes 30 degr C ( steepest part). This would compare to a power of only a few watts. If you just consider the water flow rate, then the graph makes no sense at all, since a constant flow rate with a constant power input of 300 W at the beginning should result in a flat line at about 58 ºC. However what we see is a rising line. The only conclusion I can come to is that you need to include the thermal mass of the device which is also being heated by the electric heater so that in the beginning the whole thing is heating up. The really interesting point is that the reaction appears to take off at precisely the point where the temperature of the device has reached the 58ºC which would be the constant water temperature point for heating by the electric heater alone (300 W can maintain a temp. differential of 40 ºC at that flow rate) . I can't but help find this strange, but perhaps there is a causal link between the two? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote:. Doesn't the temperature of the heated water depend on the flow rate? If there are devices in series, the problem I see is that the devices would operate at different temperatures. You could, however, adjust the flow rate to adjust the final temperature. This is assuming the devices are identical, which I'd think would be desirable. If the devices must all operate at the same temperature, it gets much more complicated Second-guessing Rossi at this point is likely a waste of time. The data tends to indicate that the reactor does not initiate below 60 C. T
Re: [Vo]:Careful Cravens
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Dennis den...@netmdc.com wrote: a few days late. that was April 1 http://www.highcountrygardens.com/content/alien/index.php I considered that; but, the article was dated April 2nd. Ah, well, it was a good joke. T
Re: [Vo]:Ongoing Rossi Blog stuff
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: William : My understanding is that the reactor volume in the original E-CAT was around 1 liter or 1000cc and that the new smaller module has a volume of about 1/20th of a liter or 50cc. Is this correct? Also, what is the standard power rating of this smaller module? Is it officially 2.5 kW? The article indicated 4 kW with 300 ganged to make 1 MW less input. T
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
if you work in the boiling water region... it wouldn't be too hard to keep them all the same. and yes, it looks like his trigger at 60C (not the 300+) like Focardi. Dennis C -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:03 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote:. Doesn't the temperature of the heated water depend on the flow rate? If there are devices in series, the problem I see is that the devices would operate at different temperatures. You could, however, adjust the flow rate to adjust the final temperature. This is assuming the devices are identical, which I'd think would be desirable. If the devices must all operate at the same temperature, it gets much more complicated Second-guessing Rossi at this point is likely a waste of time. The data tends to indicate that the reactor does not initiate below 60 C. T
Re: [Vo]:Are you falling for it?
So what is his endgame? T
[Vo]:Two new papers
Essen, H. and S. Kullander, *Experimental test of a mini-Rossi device at the Leonardocorp, Bologna 29 March 2011.*, in NyTeknik. 2011. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/EssenHexperiment.pdf A copy of the paper discussed here. Dmitriyeva, O., et al. *Mechanisms for heat generated during deuterium loading of alumina-based Pd nanoparticle material (PowerPoint slides).*in ACS National Meeting. 2011. Anaheim, CA. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Dmitriyevamechanisms.pdf Casts doubt on some nanoparticle results. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Yup. But I started writing that text before I learned that. Besides a 10 x 10 array is easy to envision, whereas . . . 17 x 17? I think that if you put two devices in series you already get superheated steam, so more than that is likely overkill. In short I would expect the array to be more like 150 x 2, or perhaps 100 X 3, but I certainly wouldn't expect it to be a square array. I would not put them in series. You don't want steam or superheated water flowing by the last on in line. I would put several pipes in parallel through the engine block with water going through all of them. This is how steam locomotive and marine engine boilers worked, either with fire tubes or water tubes. With a 10 x 10 array, the water would flow past at most 10 cells. I do not think you would want it to flow past 100 cells. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Problems with energy calculation Rossi device
When 4kW is added to such a waterflow the temperature would rise instantaneously to 100 degr C. You are confusing between static and dynamic condition. It's physically impossible to have a instantaneously rise. You are missing intertial thermal mass and dynamic conditions. The curve in figure 6 rises in about 3 minutes 30 degr C ( steepest part). This would compare to a power of only a few watts. Check your math. With 300 thermal watt you can rise around 40 degrees celsius with 6.47l/hour. But you will see this 40 degree rise only when the system is stationary, when dynamic is over. From: P.J van Noorden Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 11:19 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Problems with energy calculation Rossi device Hello In figure 6 of the article http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3144960.ece/BINARY/Download+the+report+by+Kullander+and+Ess%C3%A9n+%28pdf%29 it is stated that the waterflow is 6.47 l/ hour= about 2 ml/sec. This is about the waterflow of a espressomachine. When 4kW is added to such a waterflow the temperature would rise instantaneously to 100 degr C. The curve in figure 6 would have to rise vertically. If only 400 Watts is added the waterflow the temp would rise 50 degr C in temperature continously. The curve in figure 6 rises in about 3 minutes 30 degr C ( steepest part). This would compare to a power of only a few watts. Can anybody look at these calculations and figure out what is wrong? Further it would be interesting to know if water can flow through the chimney of the reactor directly into the black tube. To figure out what is going on one have to add a substance (dye) to the water and see if the dye can be seen in the condensed water. If non vaporised water is carried to the end of the black tube this will have consequences for the calculation of excess heat. Peter van Noorden
Re: [Vo]:Are you falling for it?
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: As you know he is a miracle worker, except for one little detail ... He DECREASES the volume of a miracle reactor by a factor of 20 and the heat only goes down by a factor of 3. And he is just noticing this! LOL. That is incorrect. The larger reactor peaked at 130 kW for a while according to Levi. The size has been reduced by a factor of 20 and the heat by a factor of 33. Granted, the small reactor might be able to run at higher power. But you are missing the point. The most important factor by far is not the volume of material, but the volume of what Storms calls nuclear active material (NAE). Most of the powder is inert and contributes nothing. If 5% of a 50 ml sample is active, it will produce far more heat than 0.01% of a 1 L sample. Evidently, in the original Mills/Thermacore experiments with 40 lb of nickel producing 50 W, only a tiny fraction of the material contributed to the reaction and the rest might as well have been on the Moon for all the good it did. For all anyone knows, the batch of powder in the small device may be more potent than the big device. Or less potent. It may not have been pushed to the limits. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
It may be a wrong path to think that the system as including the water flow piping. He may just use larger water flow piping and then have several ecats (just the reactor part) in a common flow of water. Dennis From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 6:16 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Yup. But I started writing that text before I learned that. Besides a 10 x 10 array is easy to envision, whereas . . . 17 x 17? I think that if you put two devices in series you already get superheated steam, so more than that is likely overkill. In short I would expect the array to be more like 150 x 2, or perhaps 100 X 3, but I certainly wouldn't expect it to be a square array. I would not put them in series. You don't want steam or superheated water flowing by the last on in line. I would put several pipes in parallel through the engine block with water going through all of them. This is how steam locomotive and marine engine boilers worked, either with fire tubes or water tubes. With a 10 x 10 array, the water would flow past at most 10 cells. I do not think you would want it to flow past 100 cells. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
For what it's worth here is sketch of the configuration I have in mind. There are multiple cooling pipes in parallel. When the nickel catalyst heats up, it heats the entire engine block. If some of the catalyst cylinders do not heat effectively the heat is still evenly distributed across the entire block. - Jed attachment: Engine block Rossi device.jpg
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
hay, that looks just like my system for a matrix search on these things. except my top piece has a dome and only one hydrogen port. ... and the wells have ceramic paper thermal off sets ... and the water flow is at constant temp ... and a copper gasket. I use it to screen materials. Dennis -- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:06 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together For what it's worth here is sketch of the configuration I have in mind. There are multiple cooling pipes in parallel. When the nickel catalyst heats up, it heats the entire engine block. If some of the catalyst cylinders do not heat effectively the heat is still evenly distributed across the entire block. - Jed
[Vo]:Huge blast in another galaxy
One reason for the extreme brightness could be that the jet of particles shooting out of the black hole is pointing straight at Earth. http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/04/star-eating-black-hole- may-be-pr.html?ref=ra http://tinyurl.com/3gpge4k Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
RE: [Vo]:Are you falling for it?
-Original Message- From: Terry Blanton So what is his endgame? Well, if he really has made a great discovery, as we all hope - then the latest stunt with the small ghetto-quality versions is probably to protect the secret for as long as possible by misdirection. That would be by showing old early efforts which do not work well, for the purpose of keeping replicators from trying a full-liter volume reactor, which would be the critical-mass (of something) threshold. We have only his word these work at all. IOW - he does not understand what is going on - and thinks that either it might be covered by Randell Mills IP, or that someone else might discover the precise M.O. and deprive him of full worth. That is one of several scenarios which could be the motivation for all of the half-truths, assuming that the large device does function as in the demo. He may have realized now that he gave away too much a few months back. Geeze, he may even read vortex. OTOH - If he is a total scam artist, and that is certainly not ruled out - then he has probably lined up one or two especially wealthy investors, whom he will fleece. For instance, did you see the Spike Lee film 'Inside Man'? ... where there was a bank robbery, or was there? Nothing appears missing. The investigation is dropped as there is no apparent theft. And the single rich victim (the mark) cannot complain, because he was once the worst kind of villain and has to protect that secret. Rossi, who has already been convicted of tax evasion and has Swiss connections, may have located such a mark, one with lots of untaxed wealth, and who is seeking legitimacy in a real business venture. Geeze it could be Berlusconi for all we know. Heck, if nothing else - this makes a provocative story or screenplay, no? Having spent a few months of time on trying to understand Rossi and E-Cat, hundreds of hours really - believing it will surely save the world from the evils of the BigOil/OPEC alliance, just like Mills failed to do a decade ago - maybe I can salvage something out of all the effort, and should start that screenplay soon ... just in case. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Are you falling for it?
Just a personal view... having seen some of these things played out. it could be that he doesn't know how it works. It may be very much material dependent and he has but a little of the good stuff left and doesn't know why batch 3 and 4 (pick some numbers) work and the new ones don't. Now he is trying to make smaller ones to conserve the material and save face. It is interesting to notice that the devices in the Swedish report showed a lot of Cu oxide black but the other fittings where new and shinny. Perhaps they were old ones or some taken out of service. Anyway, it is hard to see how you could get that much oxide on them if water was flowing in the pipes. Notice the fittings on the Cu parts were not altered enough to knock of the oxide but the mounts and connectors were all new. I know that with CETI, they thought they had it, and then when the good batches ran out. I just know that active materials may be hard to acquire in multiple batches. There is just something at the atomic level that is required and we just don't know how to make it consistantly. Dennis -- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:59 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Are you falling for it? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton So what is his endgame? Well, if he really has made a great discovery, as we all hope - then the latest stunt with the small ghetto-quality versions is probably to protect the secret for as long as possible by misdirection. That would be by showing old early efforts which do not work well, for the purpose of keeping replicators from trying a full-liter volume reactor, which would be the critical-mass (of something) threshold. We have only his word these work at all. IOW - he does not understand what is going on - and thinks that either it might be covered by Randell Mills IP, or that someone else might discover the precise M.O. and deprive him of full worth. That is one of several scenarios which could be the motivation for all of the half-truths, assuming that the large device does function as in the demo. He may have realized now that he gave away too much a few months back. Geeze, he may even read vortex. OTOH - If he is a total scam artist, and that is certainly not ruled out - then he has probably lined up one or two especially wealthy investors, whom he will fleece. For instance, did you see the Spike Lee film 'Inside Man'? ... where there was a bank robbery, or was there? Nothing appears missing. The investigation is dropped as there is no apparent theft. And the single rich victim (the mark) cannot complain, because he was once the worst kind of villain and has to protect that secret. Rossi, who has already been convicted of tax evasion and has Swiss connections, may have located such a mark, one with lots of untaxed wealth, and who is seeking legitimacy in a real business venture. Geeze it could be Berlusconi for all we know. Heck, if nothing else - this makes a provocative story or screenplay, no? Having spent a few months of time on trying to understand Rossi and E-Cat, hundreds of hours really - believing it will surely save the world from the evils of the BigOil/OPEC alliance, just like Mills failed to do a decade ago - maybe I can salvage something out of all the effort, and should start that screenplay soon ... just in case. Jones
RE: [Vo]:Are you falling for it?
Good points - especially the CETI analogy. That could have been the original case of getting lucky, and then losing the magic... -Original Message- From: Dennis Just a personal view... having seen some of these things played out. it could be that he doesn't know how it works. It may be very much material dependent and he has but a little of the good stuff left and doesn't know why batch 3 and 4 (pick some numbers) work and the new ones don't. Now he is trying to make smaller ones to conserve the material and save face. It is interesting to notice that the devices in the Swedish report showed a lot of Cu oxide black but the other fittings where new and shinny. Perhaps they were old ones or some taken out of service. Anyway, it is hard to see how you could get that much oxide on them if water was flowing in the pipes. Notice the fittings on the Cu parts were not altered enough to knock of the oxide but the mounts and connectors were all new. I know that with CETI, they thought they had it, and then when the good batches ran out. I just know that active materials may be hard to acquire in multiple batches. There is just something at the atomic level that is required and we just don't know how to make it consistently. Dennis -- From: Jones Beene -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton So what is his endgame? Well, if he really has made a great discovery, as we all hope - then the latest stunt with the small ghetto-quality versions is probably to protect the secret for as long as possible by misdirection. That would be by showing old early efforts which do not work well, for the purpose of keeping replicators from trying a full-liter volume reactor, which would be the critical-mass (of something) threshold. We have only his word these work at all. IOW - he does not understand what is going on - and thinks that either it might be covered by Randell Mills IP, or that someone else might discover the precise M.O. and deprive him of full worth. That is one of several scenarios which could be the motivation for all of the half-truths, assuming that the large device does function as in the demo. He may have realized now that he gave away too much a few months back. Geeze, he may even read vortex. OTOH - If he is a total scam artist, and that is certainly not ruled out - then he has probably lined up one or two especially wealthy investors, whom he will fleece. For instance, did you see the Spike Lee film 'Inside Man'? ... where there was a bank robbery, or was there? Nothing appears missing. The investigation is dropped as there is no apparent theft. And the single rich victim (the mark) cannot complain, because he was once the worst kind of villain and has to protect that secret. Rossi, who has already been convicted of tax evasion and has Swiss connections, may have located such a mark, one with lots of untaxed wealth, and who is seeking legitimacy in a real business venture. Geeze it could be Berlusconi for all we know. Heck, if nothing else - this makes a provocative story or screenplay, no? Having spent a few months of time on trying to understand Rossi and E-Cat, hundreds of hours really - believing it will surely save the world from the evils of the Big Oil/OPEC alliance, just like Mills failed to do a decade ago - maybe I can salvage something out of all the effort, and should start that screenplay soon ... just in case. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Doesn't the heater surround the copper tubing, and the red power cable attach to the heater? Can't see how the cable would pass through the copper tubing, as the heater is on the outside of the tubing. J Caplan - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper In the Essen report, Fig. 3, you see the hydrogen pipe at the top of the cell, and the power lead for the resistance heater at the bottom (the red wire). I am assuming both of pass through the outer copper sleeve, and then into the inner cylindrical stainless steel container. Granted, that might be a little difficult. Water may leak from the pipe connection at the top. I think this would be easier than working with a torus shaped cell. (By the way, the hydrogen pipe would anchor the inside cell and hold it in the center of the copper outer shell.) The configuration I have in mind is similar to the way the anode and cathode lead wires reach the cell in McKubre's labyrinth calorimeter. They go through the walls of the calorimeter at the top, and then continue through the cooling water envelope to the inner cylindrical chamber. See p. 6 here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHcoldfusion.pdf - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
In reply to OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson's message of Thu, 7 Apr 2011 07:38:42 -0500: Hi, [snip] Maximally shrinking 0.11 gm of H2 would therefore yield 752 kWh of energy, about ~30 times what was actually measured. Furthermore the calculation of the amount of Hydrogen measured assumes that none was absorbed by the Ni during filling of the reactor, which probably isn't true. IOW there may actually have been more than 0.11 gm of H present in the reactor. Woah! ...~30 times what was measured. Did I read that correctly? Yes. You're theorizing that hydrino formation can't be entirely ruled out as the source of the heat? Not only can't it be ruled out, I think it is very likely the case given the magical level of 24. In fact I suspect the mechanism is as follows: A fast particle splits a Hydrino molecule into two Hydrinos. Since these are in intimate contact with metals, they rapidly each acquire a free electron forming Hy-. Each of these then eventually migrates to the surface of the metal where it reacts with a neutral Hydrogen atom (in the ground state; such as is likely to be found on the surface of Ni), expelling a fast electron as the Hydrino molecule is formed. (The electron that gets expelled is the ground state electron of the Hydrogen atom). Because the Hy- is small, heavy, and negatively charged, this process is analogous to the formation of muonic molecules from ordinary Hydrogen. The binding energy of a level 24 Hydrino with a proton is 8000 eV, so there is plenty of energy available to strip the electron from a Hydrogen atom (and send it on it's way with more than enough energy to split other Hydrino molecules). Because level 24 is the smallest Hydrino than can still form a Hydride, this mechanism though a very fast means of producing Hydrinos at level 24 can't produce Hydrinos any smaller than this. At level 24 the energy required to split a molecule is about 1.2 keV / Hydrino, while the energy obtained from creating a new Hydrino is about 8 keV). These two figures combined yield a ratio of about 7, which may explain why Rossi wants to configure his reactor with an amplification factor of about 8. ;) The fast amplification mechanism, combined with the restriction to level 24 ensure that eventually the vast majority of Hydrinos present are at this level. BTW at 8 keV / H, the oceans of the Earth would supply all our energy needs at the current rate of use for 263 billion years. :) (Perhaps needless to say, we will no longer be around to enjoy it, nor will the Earth itself, which is due to be vaporized by a red giant Sun in about 5 billion years time.) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:Are you falling for it?
I guess I am falling for it because of my belief that this is a ZPE/ MAHG type of unlimited reaction where the control loop is everything. I think the hydroxides and energy produced in the BLP reaction were all from an unwanted runaway reaction that destroyed the geometry and allowed the hydrogen to react with other elements beside itself. I think the hydrogen can be forever disassociated and reform inside the different suppression zones created by the nano powder or pores of the skeletal cat. I think his control loop simply became easier to maintain with one resistance heater and cooling loop such that he can risk letting it run longer in run away than a larger unit. More duty factor on the PWM heater, more cooling flow to pull it back out of runaway and less chance for hot spots between multiple heaters. Regards Fran
Re: [Vo]:How small Rossi devices might be ganged together
In reply to Abd ul-Rahman Lomax's message of Thu, 07 Apr 2011 15:29:31 -0400: Hi, [snip] At 01:20 AM 4/7/2011, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: I think that if you put two devices in series you already get superheated steam, so more than that is likely overkill. Doesn't the temperature of the heated water depend on the flow rate? If there are devices in series, the problem I see is that the devices would operate at different temperatures. I agree. They would. Rossi says he wants a series/parallel setup. I was just pointing out that you wouldn't put many in series (unless you are only trying to make hot water). If you want to make steam, then you are far more restricted. You could, however, adjust the flow rate to adjust the final temperature. This is assuming the devices are identical, which I'd think would be desirable. ...only applicable when making hot water. If the devices must all operate at the same temperature, it gets much more complicated Second-guessing Rossi at this point is likely a waste of time. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
[Vo]:Re:[Vo]: Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Something very fishy-smelling here ... You DECREASE the volume by a factor of 20 and the heat only goes down by a factor of 3. And he is just noticing this! LOL. More Rossi BS - let's face it, this guy is deceptive, and could be delusional. He is trying to hide something by this kind of publicity stunt. It is pure 'misdirection'. There is no way to believe anything he says. But he is clever to handle it this way, since many who see this stunt will applaud him for what may seem to be a more open kind of show-and-tell. But the intent can only be to mislead other researchers who are scrambling to replicate the results. No way do you have a reverse economy-of-scale at this magnitude, and then do not follow up by going even smaller. No way do you do a public demo of a larger unit that is seven times less robust. Rossi is most likely showing off past things that did NOT work well, or at all - in order to protect the larger device that does work well. The large unit is the only one tested in public - and possibly the minimum size factor that works at all. But Rossi would like to encourage the hundred or so replication attempts which are in progress now - to go with the smaller size, since he knows that there is a critical mass threshold and they are doomed from the start if they go with the 50 cc. Jones -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com Looking at the pictures, it seems to be fairly simple mechanically. The chamber is 50cc and not 1 liter as we were made to believe. Two different devices. This 4 kW version has a 50 cc chamber. The original 10 kW version had a 1 L chamber.
