Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take
Hi James I got so sick of doing rounded corners and having to open a graphics program to change them (Hey, I'm a developer) when the design changed that I wrote PHP script using Imagick2.0 that draws the quadrants using the correct foreground colour, background color (or transparent), border size, rotation and border width. Now instead of opening up inkscape it's just a call to a PHP script like: background-image: url(corner.png.php?fgc=cccbs=1bgc=000bc=fffr=90); which is a grey corner with a 1px white border and black background. Of course if the background is transparent it breaks badly in IE6, but there are workarounds for that. Then I use absolute positioning within a relative position box to place the corners in the right places. I'm so Web 0.9rc2 that I don't have a blog - If I get my act together I'll post a script to one somewhere. Interestingly enough, Opera 9.5 and hopefully Firefox 3 will support SVG backgrounds which means you can have resizable background images that change size as the containing box changes size. And theSVG is just XML so it can easily be generated programmatically. http://my.opera.com/Fyrd/blog/2007/09/07/svg-multiple-images-and-rounded-corners http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/new-development-techniques-using-opera-k/ Cheers James On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:53:03 am James Jeffery wrote: What methods do you find best when creating rounded corners and which methods are the most supported? I have been using span tags and absolute positioning. I have also recently started to use the sliding doors method because you can achive nice rounded boxes with some nice effects, even better if you use PNG's. Using the span method i did find a bug in IE 6, the 2 corner span's wouldn't sit flush with the bottom of the containing div, although it displayed fine in every other browser i tested it on and they could be resized fine. It was odd though, because IE 5.x display them perfect, was just IE 6. Lets have your beloved methods then guys. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take
Hi Paul Too true, I'll figure out some sort of caching - probably a combo of server and client - at the moment it is just me hitting the script during testing. Thanks James On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:07:45 am Paul Bennett wrote: Now instead of opening up inkscape it's just a call to a PHP script like: background-image: url(corner.png.php?fgc=cccbs=1bgc=000bc=fffr=90); So for everytime the css file is called, your script has to create an image? Has this impacted on your sites / servers performance any? Have you considered a caching solution - where the new image is generated then stored static until it needs to change again? Also, there's always things like this using the Dom JavaScript: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200505/transparent_custom_corners_and _borders/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Help IE
Hi Bob Not related to your IE issues, but if you need some help with testing in IE (including multiple IEs), here's a fairly successful workflow to follow as a write up in the WSG resource section: http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/resource_display.cfm?resource_id=896 I've found this makes a whole load of testing issues a non-issue :) HTH James On Nov 11, 2007 4:34 AM, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Georg, Found the problem. I still had some empty divs (class clearit divs) after I put a comment in them, all is rosy in IE land. Thanks a lot for your help. Bob Bob Schwartz wrote: I'm still getting a problem with the area under the tabs, IE is showing about 25px of the content background (con-cen) above the top content curve (con-top) I can't see that in IE6 for my (original) test case... http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/bs-1/test_07_1110.html regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] opera doesn't play nice with Opacity
Hi Tee
You are correct: Opera doesn't do opacity. The best way I have found is to use
an opaque transparent PNG, which will work on everything not IE6.
For IE6, use one of their opacity filter: things.
Not to helpful with those fade effects but it will work in your case.
With Opera I have a feeling the lack of opacity has something to do with Qt -
the same reason why Konquerer 3.x doesn't do the opacity rule. From my
reading of the KDE 4 changes using Qt4, opacity is one of the easy things to
do. I have no idea whether Opera uses Qt4 or 3 but it may filter through in
time to a new Opera release (try Opera 9.5 beta - it may have it already).
There are some Opera people on this list so maybe they can comment ?
If you present your site like it is - easily readable - should it be a concern
that Opera isn't doing what you expect? It reads fine in FF and Opera.
Generally Opera users will upgrade pretty quickly when a new version comes out
so my advice would be to wait until Opera picks up opacity.
HTH
James
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:51:19 pm Tee G. Peng wrote:
On this site,
body {background:#FFB701}
where footer wrap has opacity of 0.92 with a bg color
#ftr_wrap {background:#0d0d0d;
opacity:0.92;}
and 3 columns has
#col1, #col2, #col3 {background:#1a1a1a;}
I think Safari and Firefox got it right, that the 3 columns' elements
are 'inheriting' the opacity from the #ftr_wrap, which is what I wanted.
But Opera doen'st seemed to agree.
http://lotusfromthemud.com/goldenlotus/index.html
Also, I know I am asking something close to impossible for pixel
perfect, but is there a way I can make it less obvious between PC and
Mac for the h1 text.
I have h1 fontsize first set to 380%, then settled for 3.8em for now.
h1 id=logoa href=#homeGolden Lotus/a/h1
#logo was first floated left with margin-top, the text was 3px lower
in my PC's FF and Opera, so I changed it to
#logo {margin-top:290px;position:absolute;}
It doesn't change at all.
http://www.lotusfromthemud.com/goldenlotus/mac.png
http://www.lotusfromthemud.com/goldenlotus/pc.png
Thanks!
tee
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Re: [WSG] opera doesn't play nice with Opacity
Sheesh, I could have sworn I was fiddling around with Opera and opacity the
other day and it wasn't working, there goes my opacity credibility.
I ran a few test on 9.5b and 9.24 (windows and linux) and they both do the
opacity rules. It's only Konquerer that doesn't do it. Maybe that's where I
was being confused.
I still find it a bit odd that setting opacity on an outer box affects the
opacity on the inner box. For instance when you have nested white boxes each
with an opacity of 0.5 over a black background they both end up having 50%
black backgrounds (~ #7f7f7f). If they are positioned absolutely over each
other the the opacity works as expected, the top most one having the
expected background colour of #bfbfbf.
Cheers
James
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:56:01 pm Ben Buchanan wrote:
You are correct: Opera doesn't do opacity.
Actually a quick test in Opera 9.24 (PC) shows that Opera does do opacity;
so opacity support isn't the issue. Perhaps a selector/inheritance issue?
Test case:
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
head
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 /
titleOpacity test/title
style type=text/css
body { color:#000; background: #fff; }
h1 { opacity: 0.5; }
h1:hover { opacity: 1; }
/style
/head
body
h1opacity test/h1
p
Hover over the heading in Opera 9.24+ and the grey (50% opacity black) will
come back to solid black./p
/body
/html
cheers,
Ben
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Re: [WSG] Invisible US Passport renewal page
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:33:44 am Crocker Ryan (rc) wrote: Looks good in IE 6 IE 7 also. Hi I think it's a case of works in IE, then good enough. Hello 1999! : Designed forbr id=XSpLit247/Internet Explorer 6.0 Something weird about passport renewal pages, I don't know if they are all developed by the same mob - the Australian one (http://www.passports.gov.au) asks for a email address but asks to make sure that it is typed in uppercase only for readability. Maybe they've found a programming langyage that doesn't support strtoupper() ? The source looks like it has been crafted by some odd CMS code generator, or maybe someone in marketing decided to do some copy and pasting. Cheers James Ryan Crocker Training Support Specialist Volvo Penta of the Americas, Inc. Chesapeake, VA, USA Phone: 1-757-436-2800 x7733 Fax: 1-757-436-5182 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
Hi I read this on the Opera feed this morning, I'm not sure how it will proceed but it mentions: The complaint describes how Microsoft is abusing its dominant position by tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating system and by hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/ I wonder what the flow on effects of this would be internationally rather than just in the EU ? Of course there is the opinion that only lawyers win out of arguments like this but it would defnitely be a more interesting playground if IE wasn't bundled and supported accepted standards better. Cheers James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.
Hi This is an oft asked question by a lot of clients and relies on a basic misundertanding of how documents are passed around the internet. Basically, it is impossible (see examples below). If you don't want information copied from your web page then don't put in on the web. period. Additionally, copy+paste is one of the most fundamental actions on any device, disabling it is pretty rude and nigh on impossible anway - on some desktop environments you can determine your own keystrokes to copy and paste that are known only to you and can't be detected by client side code e.g Ctrl-Alt-Tab-C for copying Examples: 1. Lets disable right click functionaity! results: - users lose functionality - easy workaround workaround 1: $ wget http://www.example.com/ 'copy of your home page.html' workaround 2: install some firefox extension to ignore right click disable requests by a page workaround 3: use the google cache or the web archive workaround 4: take it out of the brower cache - where it is copied anyway 2. Let's encrypt the html! results: no such thing - it's encoding, not encryption. When you encode something anyone can decode it. If it is encryption you'd have to pass a shared key to a public resource or expect your visitors to have that encryption key. slows down page rendering - it has to be decoded by JS usually. workaround 1: - decode_function(html) 'decoded copy.html' 3. Let's disable the printer requests! - see workaround 1.3,1.1,1.4 4. Use images / flash / pdf to render content - content generally inaccessible to search engines and screen readers - decode with OCR technology (crackers can easily do this with captchas) 5. transparent image over content - adblock the image workaround 1: - save as file.html html only Copyright infringment is best left up to the lawyers - but then there is the argument of content being in the public domain anyway. If you are in a closed intranet environment one way to do it would be to employ someone who runs around everytime a page is rendered in a browser and shouts very loudly remember not to copy and paste! :) Thanks James On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:48:17 am Nick Roper wrote: Hi, We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page. The page will comprise two main areas: 1) Selection options in the form of select lists, check boxes etc. 2) Once the criteria have been selected then a 'Search' button will initiate a script that will query the database and display resulting text records in tabular format. The requirement is that the the user should be able to view the resulting output, but not to be able to copy/paste to other applications. Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with CSS etc? If this is considered off-topic then I would welcome suggestions for more appropriate forums. Many thanks in anticipation. Regards, *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
ADMIN Re: [WSG] Re: Where did I come from?
Hi list This is starting to move off topic, if not already there. Being more a question of client or server side scripting rather than web standards, it really doesn't belong on the WSG list (see guidelines) - I'd suggest a general web development source or moving it to the WSG forums for further discussion. Thanks James admin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
Hi Kevin One option is to use VirtualBox (virtualbox.org) which is virtualisation software written in Qt. Looks to have Mac OSX host capabilities (http://forums.virtualbox.org/viewforum.php?f=8) I use the open source edition in KDE and run all the Windows browsers in an XP guest for testing. Only thing I can't do is get a Mac guest running although there is talk about it in VirtualBox (http://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?p=13612#13612) - won't affect you tho' HTH James On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:08:52 pm kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hi, Whats my cheapest option for getting ie7 to run on my intel based mac. Is it basically an option between boot camp, parallels or virtual pc? Very frustrated with discrepancies at the moment. -best kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Usability for downloading documents
Hi Tony On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:07:06 am Tony wrote: Hello, If, by default, PDFs open within the browser, then won't we be changing their user experience by forcing them to open/save? Regards, Tony Not really, the current position of inline PDF and other documents in probably due to the way the browser ships. I know a lot of people who dislike the inline thing and change it straight away, especially PDF's as it can slow or crash certain browsers (especially those beginning with F and ending in x). The other thing to consider is that people will generally save a document presented inline any way (it won't stay in their cache forever) and that a Save As... dialogue box will generally have an open option. So, the best usability is to allow the user to define what they want to do (either by allowing the user to select inline or downloadable files, or put it back in their hands and they can fiddle with their browser settings). To force download certain types of files (content-disposition: attachment), changes can be made at the web server level or in the middleware (PHP etc). How to do this is off topic for the list but I would quickly mention two gotchas that are: * only allow downloads from a certain directory lest you end up with downloader.php?file=/etc/passwd or even downloader.php?file=/path/to/databaseconnection.config * define the mime type properly when downloading as a lot of browsers use it to determine how to open a file. HTH James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] linking to images with //
Hi It's a bit difficult to work out what is going one given the image itself seems to be a 1x1 transparent gif. You may find that your browser is blocking these as they most likely represent web bugs, causing the issue you see. the HTML spec redirects URI info to RFC2396. In section 3. URI Syntactic Components it gives a URI syntax as scheme://authoritypath?query Further in on section 3.1 it reads: Relative URI references are distinguished from absolute URI in that they do not begin with a scheme name. Instead, the scheme is inherited from the base URI, as described in Section 5.2. So, you may actually be finding that a URI without a scheme is inheriting from the base URI. Section 5.1.3 describes how a base URI could be constructed from the retrieval URI, which I am reading that if no scheme is present the document scheme is used (http / https / ftp / scp etc etc). That being said, this is only an RFC so any support of it may be a fluke. Did you test the issue over various browsers or just one? HTH james On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:01:03 am Taco Fleur wrote: Hello all, quick question; we signed up for scanalert.com and been given some HTML code to place a icon on our search engine www.clickfind.com.au I placed the code on the pages without really paying attention to it, after a while I discovered the image was linked as src=//images.scanalert.com/meter/www.clickfind.com.au/12gif I never seen this before, but it worked! I changed it to src=http://images.scanalert.com/meter/www.clickfind.com.au/12gif; and now it doesn't seem to load anymore, for an example see: http://www.clickfind.com.au/about-clickfind.cfm right next to Yahoo Web Service the scanalert icon should load. I have no idea whether the way they linked to the image is valid, does anyone know? I guess if it is, linking to the images that way would overcome any issues with linking to an image over HTTP or HTTPS Kind regards, Taco Fleur _ clickfindT 1300 859 179 www.clickfind.com.au http://www.clickfind.com.au/ the new Australian search engine for businesses, products and services . *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] linking to images with //
Hi That's a common enough response when dealing with standards based implementations from companies that either: * do know and don't care * don't know and are scared/worried * do know, do care but don't have the resources * do know but implementation would have internal political implications (I've experienced this a few times) It's a common enough path, to paraphrase some other quotes I've seen around: 1. I don't want or need to know 2. What's this ? 3. Could be useful... 4. Let's implement it.. 5. Wow, that was easy. 6. Advocate... Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about responses like that - especially given the two code examples are easily eliminated or placed elsewhere to be non obstrusive. Anyone who uses border=0 then complains that it is too difficult to change is either too lazy or shouldn't be doing web development, or both. As for W3C standards not being widely implemented and other generalisations - bit of a throwaway line to get you to go away. J On Feb 2, 2008 6:44 AM, David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:10:04 +1000, Taco Fleur wrote: On a different note: Just been speaking with ScanAlert, I tried to get them to understand that their code does not validate since they used oncontextmenu, and border=0 - I got a response saying that W3C standards is not widely accepted! Microsoft is not using it, Google is not using it and all other big companies are not using it in the US. Apparently they did a lot of research on this! I had to laugh, but then again, who am I, I could be wrong and they could be right... Maybe Google and the rest really don't care, I personally don't think so, but I'm just following the crowd! ;-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
CLOSED Re: [WSG] PHP includes
Hi This discussion is off topic for the WSG list. If you would like to respond to Michael, please do so off list. The list guidelines are available at the footer of each list email. Thanks James -- cc:core On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 07:34:22 am Michael Horowitz wrote: If I am including a menu using the PHP include command but the actuual menu is an html list does the included file need to have its code including the css style sheet or will it use the style sheet of the page it is included to. Also is their a preference in web standards for using PHP includes or something like SSI? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
and remember that Wine is an emulation layer, it may not give the same results as virtualising Windows (which is a standard Windows install). It depends on how good the emulation is. For instance, before using virtualisation to test IE in XP, I was using Wine and ies4linux and not getting very good Javascript results. Cheers James On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 12:07:05 am kevin mcmonagle wrote: note to anyone who wants to run ies4mac. install wine verstion .51 the current version doesnt work. -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] tableless forms !!!
Hi Naveen
Options are, as discussed, fieldsets and labels to assist with positioning.
There is nothing illegal about using form elements in a table - some see it
as the widget labels being in the th and the actual widgets being in
the td. For a quick, single fieldset form, it's a useful layout especially
if time is of the essence. You could see it as a one row table but with two
columns, if that makes sense.
Does have some major drawbacks in that you can't easily relayout the form for
other uses using CSS. E.g in some instances I've used the same form markup
and presented in different ways using CSS. Definition lists really help out
there.
1. Fieldsets, legends, labels and associated form widgets. If you want to take
the legends out for whatever reason, then do legendspanmy
legend/span/legend and use legend span {position : absolute;
left : -9000px;} or similar in CSS.
Use fieldsets as block level elements to position them within the form.
2. As #1 but use a definition list inside each fieldset. Form labels go in the
dt, widgets in the dd. You can float the dt and dd to get a presentation
similar to your classic '97 grid layout with the added flexibility of being
able to re - layout it in another way.
You would need to use the for attribute to link labels with widgets as you
cannot, of course, wrap the widgets in the label
I've used DL's quite a bit and it works well especially when the client is apt
to change their mind and they want the form labels above the widgets instead
of to the left. You can just turn off the dt/dd float in that case.
If you have buttons at the bottom of a form, use a fieldset to contain those
and set its clear to both to clear any floated elements above.
HTH
James
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:01:26 pm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi ,
Could anyone tell me which is the best way to build a form without
tables in w3c standards.
I would really appreciate if you can provide a good referral link. J
Thanks a ton in advance..
Thanking you
Naveen Bhaskar
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Re: [WSG] Controling Windows DPI settings
Hi Angus Do you happen to be talking to people who like itsy bitsy font sizes ? Do they happen to be setting their own font sizes ? I guess, find out if it is widespread and then consider your options. Font-size is bit like calling purple lavender, violet or magenta - everyone has an opinion :) I find sticking to the middle ground is best. Cheers James On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 01:14:07 pm Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote: I have Windows Vista Home Premium and use 96 DPI. I am told repeteated ly that my fonts are to large. I have even tried font-size: 80%; in my CSS and still get told the fonts are to large. I know you are not able to overide a person's preferences. can I do something in CSS to change the default DPI and/or font-size? And then create different CSS files to increase the DPI and/or font-sizes? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] re: generate data
Hi, inline comments .. On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 03:02:46 pm Breton Slivka wrote: i understand that javascript is needed to pass information from a form to a data base for storage or retrieval of data. Incorrect- Javascript is absolutely not needed for this. In fact, I would actively discourage this usage, because it makes forms inaccessable to clients without javascript. (Even though I do quite like javascript most of the time) Not all the time, I hope. If you have a submit listener on a form, those without JS will obviously ignore it and you can catch them for validation on the server side. The great majority of your browsers will process the JS submit listener and do client side validation. You can still catch them on the server side as well, if the listener allows the form to be submitted, using the same script as the first case, just that you are saving some un-necessary page loads (among other benefits). i also understand there are more uses for javascript than my above remark, but, again, my limited understanding of javascript draws a blank for other uses. Javascript is basically a tool to allow website authors to add browser features that are not built in to the browser. That's how I see it anyway. That's not exactly how most people use it, or think of it. i don't understand why someone would code a page and use javascript that would make the page not available without it. Think about the intended audience of the site in question. Can you think of a developer that would want to use this tool, particularly one who can install and run a PHP app, that wouldn't have JS enabled and if not, wouldn't know how to enable it? If they were making a site for pensioners to update their home insurance, for sure it's the wrong way to do things but in this case it's absolutely appropriate. My concern is more about the scoring with girls comment which points to someone who really needs assistance accessing some natural light rather than better html. :) Cheers J It's not strictly the usage of javascript that makes the page inaccessable, it's the page's dependance on it. If you think of javascript like I do- A tool for adding features- then the page still needs to be able to work without those features. The reasons for someone making a page that doesn't work without javascript are complicated, but it basically boils down to how the author thinks about what a webpage is, and how it works. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 news
Agreed, plenty of virtualisation software out there that makes problems like the ones reported just go away. In most VM's you could take a snapshot of Windows prior to install of IE8 then roll back to that snapshot when you are done with IE8 or until a workable standalone comes through. For virtualbox, for instance, you would take a snapshot. Another option is if you have a valid Windows license to just run up a dedicated IE8 virtual machine. HTH J On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 08:38:02 am Michael Horowitz wrote: Setup a virtual machine and do it there. Much safer. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 aleagi wrote: Yeah, I'm afraid to install it and kick IE6 and 7 out of my box! Anyone with the guts to do it? @:D Regards. Aleagi . *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 news
I had this crazy idea that MS would allow developers to implement something like this so we could forget about the various furbar'd rendering engines MS produces and just run with something that works for those of us who code to, or try to code to, the various standards: meta name=engine content=webkit / or at least allow us to stick in a HTTP response header for the client: X-HTML-Rendering-Engine: webkit Given the webkit (http://webkit.org/) BSD/LGPL licensing... although I wouldn't see myself as a licensing expert and I doubt MS would want to implement an open source license, but a man can dream. At least we suffering developers could tell IE what engine to render the page with, and IE lovers can still have their IE chrome :D Cheers James On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 02:25:25 pm Chris Knowles wrote: We've decided that IE8 will, by default, interpret web content in the most standards compliant way it can. This decision is a change from what we've posted previously. http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/03/microsoft-s-interoperability-pr inciples-and-ie8.aspx *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari 3.1 and webkit-border-radius
Hi The validator is doing the right thing in flagging these rules as either not existing or at another version of CSS. Usage of -vendor-specific-css in this manner is also perfectly fine when you want to target a feature that has been introduced into a rendering engine but has not yet been finalised. Generally, you will find that this vendor specific stuff is the vendor's intepretation of the spec, so don't expect -webkit-border-radius to do the same thing as -moz-border-radius or even the w3c border-radius, especially for more complex rounded corners involving ellipses. As an aside, Opera 9.5 while not supporting border-radius will have some nifty SVG background mojo that will allow you to do similar stuff: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/new-development-techniques-using-opera-k/ Cheers James On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 04:56:29 am cto wrote: Hi Lars, I ran the css validator on the page you linked to. It shows a number of errors. The specific comments of concern are: Property -moz-border-radius doesn't exist : 15px Property -webkit-border-radius doesn't exist : 15px Property border-radius doesn't exist in CSS level 2.1 but exists in [css3] : 15px No ideas to offer, but it's a start. I confirm that Safari 3.1 does not show rounded corners, while FF did. Chief Technology Officer 273 Azalea Road, Bldg. 2, Suite 300 Mobile, Alabama, USA, 36609 Tel. +1-251-404-4111 Fax +1-251-344-9545 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: Standards slipping (was RE: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is u deprecated?]
Hi I read through that post and the available comments and I'd say it's a bit pedantic of the author to go on about a subset of an application and link that to the end of XHTML and worse. Especially one that seems to be third party and incorporated into WP. The author also confuses the functions of getting your data from a source (the application) and sending it to a browser/device (the output method). The two are distinct (although sometimes the lines blur). Writing web applications is a process of gradual improvement rather than spot on standards the first time (although that may happen from time to time). Remember also that standards are a stepping stone to building web applications - not the be-all and end-all. Nobody kills kittens when a validation error occurs, nobody should, least of all your favourite deity. Implementing a feature that will bring in greater market share, more users and therefore more revenue has to be considered along with any improvement process involving incorporation of standards. If you add a feature that brings in a few thousand users while not initially supporting the standards then you have more revenue to improve that feature to satisfy the outliers that demand full compliance. It would, of course, be even better to implement a feature that incorporates the accepted standard from the start - but the world doesn't always work that way. Take the Gallery option talked about in this link - if the author(s) of it cannot provide a standards compliant option within the launch timeframe of any app that includes it - and the app is not relying on it for core functions then the app is going to be launched, with a X.x point release probably bringing the gallery up to speed. With open source applications especially there is a process for reporting and fixing bugs that often proves cumbersome to some - and chiding the app's developers does nothing to assist in fixing the issues (in fact it may produce the opposite effect). Finally, focusing back on WP, it does what it does well - providing free publishing to a huge audience in a semi-standards compliant way. If you step back, it can be seen as a glorified way of saving content with a wp unified way of rendering that data. And I guess that's my point - it can save your content but you can use any codebase (not just the WP software) to access the database and visualise your data in any way you see fit (even XHTML1 strict). And that's really true for any application that uses any type of data storage medium. Cheers James On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:44:06 am Andrew Boyd wrote: Stuart, I would have to add ..and watch those standards disregarded by popular Open Source and commercial applications. For an interesting tale of standards and Standards slipping, please see http://realtech.burningbird.net/semweb/wordpress-25-releases/ - the comment discussion taking place is quite informative. Cheers, Andrew Andrew Boyd Consultant SMS Management Technology M 0413 048 542 T +61 2 6279 7100 F +61 2 6279 7101 [EMAIL PROTECTED] About SMS: Ground Floor, 8 Brindabella Circuit, CANBERRA AIRPORT ACT 2609 www.smsmt.com SMS Management Technology (SMS) [ASX:SMX] is Australia's largest, publicly listed Management Services company. We solve complex problems and transform business through Consulting, People and Technology *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
On Wed, 7 May 2008 02:35:51 pm Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2: http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder Elizabeth Hi Yes, but that kind of functionality can easily be done with some AJAX know-how. e.g http://www.stripegenerator.com/ Really, from a developers POV, the benefit of Flash was to do the little http fetches from the server without loading the page -- what came to be known as AJAX. It could do it back in 1999 or whenever Flash 3 came out, in a rudimentary way. If you are using Flash just for that then JS/HTTP request can do it just as well, debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot lower :) That's why I stopped using Flash. For design, animation etc, Flash still has the edge although some of the recent SVG improvements are starting to erode that (like resizable SVG backgrounds in Opera 9.5) Cheers James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] [OT] users - IT literate?
Hi Reading through all the replies on this topic is quite interesting. The one thing that you can be sure about in web work of any kind is (aside from taxes) that users will interact with an interface in ways we never dreamed of - using their fridge, a keyboard, a mobile, the wrong address bar and possibly even a fair degreee of shouting, among others. Whether these are minor or major differences the end goal is: that the user can use an application and reach there intended goal with the minimum of fuss. Take the scrollbar point - I learnt this while I was watching my father-in-law, who has just learnt how to use Gmail and Skype. When he wants to scroll a page he goes and finds the up or down button and clicks repeatedly on it. For some of us this might seem inefficient but the point is that any good user interface has multiple pathways to the same end result. In the scrollbar case we can use: * the keyboard * the scroll wheel * the scrollbar drag * the scrollbar buttons * any other device that can trigger a scroll event... In that instance, who is to say that what someone else does is wrong? The only time something is classically wrong is when the user cannot control the interface in the way they want (user or interface is wrong) OR when they do control the interface in a normal fashion for the day and the interface fails to handle that interaction (interface is wrong). Note that the user should control the interface, not the other way round, and when something does go wrong then a user should be able to back out and try again easily. Examples like typing in an address into the google bar or the multitude of ways that one can upload an image to Flickr fall under the same banner. The discussion about willful ignorance may not be because the person is confronted by interacting with machine but because they have tried in the past and something has scared them off. I worked with someone many years back whose bug reporting system was the widga-ma-doo is not working. Most people, given enough time, will get the basics. Some people won't - just as I won't probably understand heart surgery. It's all relative. Stepping back for a moment, you can see how all these examples can fall under the Web2.0 (i dislike that term) way of doing things - which to paraphrase Jeff Veen is, among others, about Openness, not control. Use-more interfaces are the ones general enough to be controlled in ways that we as the developers may not have thought about - with a user getting the end results they wished. An icon is an interface that is useful - it responds to clicks, keyboard controls and can optionally be configured. Do icons in your web pages respond to that interaction? most do not. Use-less interfaces are those which attempt to control the user interaction to a point where it may be impossible to continue. If I took the scroll buttons away from (or moved them) my father-in-law would probably get very frustrated with Email. A message saying Do not click the back button is another use-less interface. If you need to supply that message then your application is not working correctly. Period. An even simpler one is Hit Ctrl+Q to quit the application - a simple enough action for English keyboards - but apply that logic to a Slovene audience who have neither a key spelt Ctrl or a Q character on their keyboard and you end up with useless interface - especially if that is the only interaction allowed. Finally, if people using your apps are happy then they will use them even more - even if they use them in ways you didn't design - then you have a use-more interface and isn't that a good thing ? Thanks james On Fri, 16 May 2008 08:26:45 pm Rick Lecoat wrote: On 16 May 2008, at 06:50, Matthew Pennell wrote: In my experience, a large proportion of computer/web users struggle to understand online concepts that we expert users take for granted. Many regular surfers have no idea how to interact with a scroll bar - and there are lots of people who don't know how the address bar of their browser works! Matthew, my experience tallies with yours. At least half of the people I work with (I mean clients, not co-workers) are not very IT-savvy at all. It brings to mind the Blackadder line: I am one of these people who are quite happy to wear cotton, but have no idea how it works. In some extreme cases this seems to extend to an almost willful ignorance, as if they feel that learning how to operate their computer would somehow diminish them. It is certainly true that the older the client the more likely this seems to be -- although I would certainly not generalise too much as I know plenty of completely computer- literate 'silver surfers'. I find it frustrating when they stubbornly refuse to learn what the most basic controls are on their browser, but unless it has a negative impact on the project I generally ignore it. In any case the evidence would
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
Hi Using both Tidy (1) and HTML Purifier (2) can improve tag soup no end -- although even they have their limits. They also add a bit to processing time, especially HP as it is written in PHP - you can solve that issue with page caching, though. (1) php.net/tidy (2) htmlpurifier.org HTH James On Sat, 17 May 2008 09:56:25 am Andrew Boyd wrote: On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 3:32 AM, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you asking about PHP Standards or (X)HTML Standards within the context of PHP? Even the sloppiest of PHP (or any server-side scripting) can deliver impeccable standards-compliant markup, and conversely even the most carefully crafted PHP can deliver the most hideous tag soup. Though I think you will find that following best practices will be mutually reinforcing. If you're interested in PHP Coding Standards, a Google search will open the door to a wealth of information, and there are PHP mailing lists as well. For (X)HTML Standards, this list is an extraordinarily useful resource, and if you spend a little time with the archive you can find many useful links. good luck, Andrew Andrew, good point. Generating web standards-compliant (X)HTML with PHP is one thing, and writing re-usable code is another. If I could make a small plug on behalf of the latter - please people, take the time to document your code properly. The life/job/sanity you save may be your own. Best regards, Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Conditional styles not being used on first-run
Hi Try sticking a revision number on the style/script url like so: href/src=/path/to/file?r=12 Browsers will download and cache that link (depending on the cache settings of the browser/ web server / proxy). When you make a revision to the file, bump the revision number: href/src=/path/to/file?r=13 The browser will then download the new revision as it doesn't match what it is in the cache. If you use a revision control system like (svn, bazaar, git etc etc) this can be done to some extent automagically with some server side scripting by looking up the revision number of the file in question and tacking it on the the query string (you don't want to do that on every http request so it's best to try and do it statically whenever the file is changed e.g by creating an html template ready for inclusion) - otherwise just bump the revision numbers manually. There are other methods to look at when dealing with caching including the HTTP headers that are sent by your web server which tell browsers and proxies if and how they should cache files. That's a large topic in itself so I'd suggest googling for some basic caching how-tos to get started. HTH James On Fri, 23 May 2008 08:42:38 pm Matt Fellows wrote: Sounds like IE6 is caching the original stylesheet. This is entirely expected as it increases performance and responsiveness for the user on subsequent page loads. There is no nice way around it. I'm sure you could use JavaScript of some sort to reload the script but i don't think it is worth it. On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Steven Workman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, I'm having a problem with an element I've created for my current project. It's basically a styled rounded-corner box with a title (it looks like a fieldset but is correctly structured HTML). To get all my padding working correctly I'm using conditional styles for IE6, but some users are reporting that they have to refresh their screens (press F5) in IE before the positioning works correctly! Have any of you heard of this before? Is there a way around it? Any recommendations? Many thanks, Steve Workman PA Consulting Group 123 Buckingham Palace Road London SW1W 9SR United Kingdom Direct dial: +44 207 881 3732 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.paconsulting.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Wiki's and standards
Hi Note sure about which one is the best for standards support - they all have their little oddities that are usually down to the developers' interpretation of what is correct. Most of them have this odd wiki markup so you type in headline instead of h4headline/h4 - which stupidly makes the entering of text harder than if someone just learnt the basics of HTML... The only other thing I'd suggest with a wiki is that you *will* want to get the information you put in out again sometime in the future. Choosing a wiki that has a good API to get content out is a wise idea so that you don't have to screenscrape. HTH James On Friday 06 June 2008 02:15:06 Rob Enslin wrote: Hello WSG Group, Our company have asked me to look into potential Wiki software for our corporate community (intranet-style). The person driving the Wiki has suggested using Jive's Clearspace ( http://www.jivesoftware.com/products/clearspace). With web standards in mind: 1. Has anyone used Clearspace and have any comments? 2. Any standards-related issues when rolling out a corporate Wiki solution? 3. Any other favoured Wiki software they could recommend and why? Any thoughts, comments or ideas would be great. best, Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate
Hi That's not exactly right .. if you install v3 to a different location (tip: choose Custom install) then you can run either version from the relevant file location, but not at the same time. The only problem you will find is compatibility with some extensions when you run FF3. If you want to go back to FF2 for Firebug support then it will automatically re-enable it. At least that what it just did for me. Your profile will be shared between both versions as well. This is true for Linux versions as well - you can either install both versions using your distro's package manager or run it from the tarball. I doubt Mozilla would go down the path of IE - I'd be annoyed if I had to 'MultipleFF' as well, or run up a new virtual machine for every version... HTH James On Wednesday 18 June 2008 22:32:16 Jason Grant wrote: It will replace it even if you install into different directory. :-( Then it means you are not going to have your FireBug available to work with. FF3 is very nice and I am excited. Just can't wait for FireBug to become compatible with it as it is so crucial for us of course. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com/semantix On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know if it will replace your version of Firefox 2, or will it run side by side?! Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
CLOSED - Re: [WSG] Help
On Sunday 06 July 2008 17:43:08 Matijs wrote: Wrong group I'm afraid Bidemi, but one wonders, why Flash in the first place? On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:20 AM, Bidemi Adejumo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, Is there anyone who can design guestbook with flash? I guess you know what the question means.. .. I want someone to teach me how to develop guest book with flash. Thanks Bidemi. Hi list Just a quick admin reminder that the WSG list isn't a general web development/design mailing list. Please try and keep questions on-topic. Here's a pointer to the mailing list guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Specifically, in this case: The mail list does not cover: ... Non-Web Standards related issues and support Additionally, try and keep your message subjects informative and if you see a message that is off topic, just ignore it rather than generating a lot of traffic unecessary off-topic traffic for the 5800+ members. I'll close this thread as it's off topic. If you wish to respond to the author, please do so directly off list. Thanks James - admin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
CLOSED, again Re: [WSG] Help
Hi This thread has previously been closed. If you want to continue with it, either do so off list or alter the subject to something descriptive and ask questions in the context of web standards. If you are unsure of what is on and off topic for the list, consult the mailing list guidelines, a link to which helpfully appears at the bottom of each email. Thanks James -- admin On Wednesday 09 July 2008 09:33:28 Bidemi Adejumo wrote: I guess at not a wrong group coz we're to share ideas. Flash b'cos its creat interactive platforms. On 7/6/08, Matijs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wrong group I'm afraid Bidemi, but one wonders, why Flash in the first place? On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:20 AM, Bidemi Adejumo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, Is there anyone who can design guestbook with flash? I guess you know what the question means.. .. I want someone to teach me how to develop guest book with flash. Thanks Bidemi. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Encoding odities
Barney,
One other thing you might want to check is how (mime type, character encoding)
your web server is serving the file.
If you are using a server side language then most (if not all) can send http
headers to a browser, including a content type header. In PHP, for instance,
you'd do this to send an UTF8 encoded html file.
header('Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8');
and this to send a UTF8 encoded xml file (and so on ad nauseam)
header('Content-Type: text/xml; charset=utf-8');
If you are just serving static HTML pages, without middleware in the way, then
check your web server config for how it sends text/html pages. In Apache
you'll find this in the main config file, if you don't have access to that
then try the .htaccess methods.
Of course, whether or not your document includes characters from other
character sets that cannot be mapped to UTF8 is another matter ;) - if the
browser cannot render the character you'll see the odd ?? characters in their
place.
Cheers
James
On Friday 11 July 2008 00:25:13 Barney Carroll wrote:
Thanks for your swift responses, all.
The validator gives me an unconditional pass after putting in Kevin's
properly-formed tag:
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 /
Notepad++ was really nice, but I suspected it was being a bit silly. On a
Mac I'd use BBEdit (loved that) but PCs seem to be short on really
head-above-the-crowd open source code editors.
Nikita, that's worth knowing... And yes it is ending up US-ASCII, but I'd
just like to be sure I'm sticking to the lowest common denominator...
Regards,
Barney
On 7/10/08, Nikita The Spider The Spider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 8:27 AM, Barney Carroll
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello all,
I've got a problem with character set encoding I'd like to rectify. I
use UTF-8 as a matter of convenience and ideology, and don't believe it
should
be that much of a problem. My editor (Notepad++) is set to create new
files
in UTF-8 without a byte order mark, but when I retrieve files from my
server
it tells me that they're ANSI.
Does ANSI means US-ASCII? The most popular single-byte encodings
(ISO-8859-X, Win-1252) and UTF-8 are supersets of US-ASCII, so a
US-ASCII file is also valid UTF-8 (and ISO-8859-X and Win-1252) all at
the same time. It's pretty easy to write English-language pages that
are 100% pure US-ASCII, so this might be your situation. Notepad++ has
saved the file as UTF-8, but in this situation that doesn't look any
different from US-ASCII (i.e. ANSI).
Here's an ASCII chart. There are a lot of things floating around out
there that claim to be extended ASCII, Microsoft ASCII, Updated
ASCII, etc. None of them are official. ASCII ends at character 127,
end of story.
http://www.jimprice.com/jim-asc.shtml
Here's a list of valid charset names:
http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets
I ran an automatic W3C validation of my markup just a second ago after
making some edits and it warns me that no character set encoding was
specified (even though the first tag in my heads is meta
name=content-type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8).
For us to figure out why that is, you'll need to share a URL with us.
--
Philip
http://NikitaTheSpider.com/
Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more
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Re: [WSG] Opera opacity bug
Hi I guess the first questions are - where is the bug report, do you have an example url and what is the opacity issue you mention ? If I remember rightly (and I stand corrected) opera uses Qt 3 as it's widgeting engine and I think the Konquerer/KHTML developers were running into similar issues with Qt3 and opacity (i.e difficult to get it working). I think their decision was wait until Qt4 to avoid hacks - in any case Konquerer 4 is now using webkit + Qt4 so it would be interesting if -webkit-opacity rules are applied or even plain old opacity : N Thanks James On Wednesday 16 July 2008 07:58:02 tee wrote: I posted a message about Opera bug last december and filed a bug report. Recently I discovered the bug also affecting js slideshow that I used for a client's site. So I tracked back the site I did last year, sure enough, the bug was not fixed in Opera 9.5 Have any of you encountered this bug in with your web projects? I googled the Opera Opacity bug, saw a few articles about it and some reported it was fixed. It never! I remember there is an Opera developer in this list, so I am positing this message here as I don't want to create an Opera account in their forum. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] iphone should not be part of your url
It's just a name branding exercise... having an iphone in your domain, e.g as a subdomain has more to do with marketing efforts and user identification (I've got an iphone and I want to use it on something) than it does with the code it actually presents. Look under the hood at iphone.news.com.au and you'll see it presents HTML, JS and CSS that works in any browser. I browse it on my desktop because it presents information quicker than the main news site. News could quite easily have shown it under the mobile.news.com.au subdomain but do you think that their marketing bods would have gotten the exposure/revenue they wanted ? As long as the code served is device agnostic, you can serve it out from one or more domains of any choosing... Cheers J On Monday 21 July 2008 19:14:14 Keryx Web wrote: Ted Drake skrev: Slightly off topic... There is a really good Wordpress template/plugin that detects the very specific user-agent for iphone and touch and changes your theme to an iphone specific layout. There is a plethora of such solutions covering most major PHP-frameworks, RoR, etc. That is the really scaring part! However, I suspected that most people on this list would stay away from that solution. I thought that on this list that would be well understood by now. Then I saw that even so called standrads aware developers started to use iphone as part of the URL instead, which IMO is perheps less evil. But only by a few degrees. Sure, it's arguable if you should design for a particular appliance. However, they've done the work for you and it works great, although a bit generic in look and feel. You can always make adjustments to the theme for personalization. No it is not arguable. Within the web standards aware community this argument has been settled! Come on people. Can't you see that this is *EXACTLY* the arguments ´that were used in 1998 when people forked their code for MSIE and Netscape? It worked. It really did. In the short term. Developing with the iPhone in mind (not for the iPhone) really should mean nothing else than what it means to develop with e.g. Firefox 3.0 or Opera 9.5 in mind. You can take advantage of the advanced features, if you use them as progressive enhancement and capability test for them. The only hard question is how you deal with what's *lacking* in the iPhone: A cursor and a pointer! Ohh, it's from Apple, it's shiny, it has no buttons - what is 10 years of hard fought struggle for web standards worth in that perspective? Zilch. It seems. Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox and IE font sizes
On Sunday 27 July 2008 08:41:04 Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote:
At http://www.choroideremia.org/new/crf_header.php I have three buttons.
The first is Decrease font size the second is ?Default font size. And
the third is Increase font size:. Firefox 3.0.1 shows them in 15 point
Arial font which I would say is good to default to. However, IE7 will show
the in 21 point Arial. I would say IE7's font choice is to large. How do I
get Fire fox and IE to both display 15 point Arial?
Angus MacKinnon
Infoforce Services
http://www.infoforce-services.com
Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into
the light. - Helen Keller
Hi
I looked at your CSS and can't see any point font sizes, only %age sizes
(which is ok in itself) - so can't really relate what you mention above to
what I'm seeing. Remember pts are for print stylesheets.
There are also some problems with your page - whitespace above the doctype
will cause IE to barf out into quirks mode. The medium and large switcheroo
things don't seem to be linked properly. When I hit the links in FF3.01 the
font size doesn't change.
I can give you some advice on stylesheet switching though.. instead of
refreshing the whole page with unnecessary server load and adding in a
stylesheet based on a url, try switch the id of the body tag. This assumes you
know how to and can apply an event listener to an element using a JS library
of some description.
[pseudocode]
//html
span id=font_largeincrease/span
//js
foo.attachEventListener(
foo.get('font_large'),//element
'click',//event
function() {
//get the 'body' element somehow
body.setAttribute('id', 'large');
//store change in a cookie so it can propagate across pages
}
//css
body {
font-size : 100%;
/* other generic styles */
}
body#large {
font-size : 120%;
}
body#small {
font-size : 80%;
}
[/pseudocode]
You could also implement and increase,decrease handler and apply body font-
size in increment/decrements
HTH
J
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Re: [WSG] Firefox and IE font sizes
On Sunday 27 July 2008 08:41:04 Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote:
At http://www.choroideremia.org/new/crf_header.php I have three buttons.
The first is Decrease font size the second is ?Default font size. And
the third is Increase font size:. Firefox 3.0.1 shows them in 15 point
Arial font which I would say is good to default to. However, IE7 will show
the in 21 point Arial. I would say IE7's font choice is to large. How do I
get Fire fox and IE to both display 15 point Arial?
Angus MacKinnon
Infoforce Services
http://www.infoforce-services.com
Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into
the light. - Helen Keller
Hi
I looked at your CSS and can't see any point font sizes, only %age sizes
(which is ok in itself) - so can't really relate what you mention above to
what I'm seeing. Remember pts are for print stylesheets.
There are also some problems with your page - whitespace above the doctype
will cause IE to barf out into quirks mode. The medium and large switcheroo
things don't seem to be linked properly. When I hit the links in FF3.01 the
font size doesn't change.
I can give you some advice on stylesheet switching though.. instead of
refreshing the whole page with unnecessary server load and adding in a
stylesheet based on a url, try switch the id of the body tag. This assumes you
know how to and can apply an event listener to an element using a JS library
of some description.
[pseudocode]
//html
span id=font_largeincrease/span
//js
foo.attachEventListener(
foo.get('font_large'),//element
'click',//event
function() {
//get the 'body' element somehow
body.setAttribute('id', 'large');
//store change in a cookie so it can propagate across pages
}
//css
body {
font-size : 100%;
/* other generic styles */
}
body#large {
font-size : 120%;
}
body#small {
font-size : 80%;
}
[/pseudocode]
You could also implement and increase,decrease handler and apply body font-
size in increment/decrements
HTH
J
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Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?
Hi There is some really good information in all these posts. I'd also go so far as to say look at the theory of developing specifics for IE6. There is a gaining movement around to start phasing out IE6 support - look at 37signals, I think they begin IE6 phase out this week or next. They've done their maths and taken a gamble. Hopefully it'll spark something. For all my new clients, I have added a clause in the contract which states we'll be phasing out IE6 support beginning 2009- their site may work in IE6 after the phase out date but for full support they should use a better browser - Firefox, Opera, Safari, IE7, Konquerer etc etc I pitch it to them that in the long run they'll actually be spending more money developing for IE6 (a browser which is patched by upgrading to IE7) than in adding features that could bring in more revenue. They'll also be prolonging the shelf life of a browser which has the functional equivalence of 5 year old cheese at the back of a fridge, making it more difficult to add features next year. That said, allowing a site to be unusable in IE6 is going to be alienating. Giving users some graceful degradation while making it known that they'll get normal functionality by spending 10 minutes upgrading is a better way to go. An example - I have a rounded corner generator that uses Imagick to create images on the fly (cached for later use) - the images are 24 bit PNGs with an alpha channel - because I don't know what the background will be. In IE6, the user gets square boxes -- perfectly functional as they can still use the site -- when a client asks me about it I remind them of our upgrade path conversation. If they still want it I tell them they'll get something that'll be uglier than square boxes... and so on. In the end, do you want to spend hours developing hacks for IE6 or just nicely push people into an upgrade path? HTH James On Monday 04 August 2008 01:53:46 Joseph Taylor wrote: In the end IE6 isn't going to be 100% if you're using .png files. Even the javascripts out there cause odd bugs - things like link over .png backgrounds not working etc. My advice and what I do in actual practice - use conditional comments to address IE6 and lower and replace all instances of .png with a .gif. Yes, it doesn't look as nice the .pngs, but then again everything looks like crap on them - just look at the non-aliased text! Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Сергей Кириченко wrote: not to use png with alpha in IE6 ) just like adobe.com (look at drop-down menu in different browsers) sri ni пишет: Hi All, What is the best *solution *for IE6 PNG issue? -- Thanks, Srini Perumal *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
IE6 support - was - Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?
Hi Not wanting to hijack the PNG thread, so I've altered the subject. I understand the issues involve in huge migrations, it's not that easy.. especially if your systems have a vested interest in some piece of obsolete technology.. but there are two things that strike me as odd here - - IE7 has been around for about 2 years now. It takes about 10 minutes to install IE7 on the desktop (I did one yesterday). 2 employees shouldn't be that difficult ? - the last time I worked in a big corporate environment, upgrades happened with a zap disk - either by choice or because the OS became unusable. The zap would boot up the PC and download an image to the machine, installing the image. A fresh new windows in about 30 minutes. So, time isn't obviously an issue - I think it's more the tying of an application to one browser -- if it's for internal use that's a special case that probably doesn't apply to general public web use. Get enough people hammering on the door and somethings gotta give, I say ;) Cheers James On Monday 04 August 2008 15:54:41 Phillips, Wendy wrote: I would agree. When you have over 20,000 employees and multiple legacy systems, upgrading an OS is a really big deal and you will always be behind the pack. Staff don't have the choice or ability to upgrade. WP -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lewis, Matthew Sent: Monday, 4 August 2008 2:05 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue? as to say look at the theory of developing specifics for IE6. There is a gaining movement around to start phasing out IE6 support - look at 37signals, I think they begin IE6 phase out this week or next. They've done their maths and taken a gamble. Hopefully it'll spark something. [snip...] In the end, do you want to spend hours developing hacks for IE6 or just nicely push people into an upgrade path? OT and not much to do with IE6 .png solutions but instead, the ongoing support of IE6 aspect of this thread. I was advised by a lesser Microsoft management bot that many corporate organisations have a 'latest minus one' policy, which means only running up to the previous version of any current browser. This will hopefully mean that when IE8 is fully released many corporate techs will then upgrade to IE7, ideally resulting in a bulk upgrade of the costly IE6. I hope this has some truth. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: IE6 support - was - Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?
Hi Mike No worries, not interested in war, but I do understand. I guess the one big answer about why change is that, over time, sites will just stop working to their full efficiency. There is also the big one called security (or lack of). I hope, but I don't think, that this fabled desktop image would include FF3, Safari 3 or Opera 9.5 as the default browser :D even IE7 gives me the odd grey hair still. I can only think the organisations that can't upgrade are those completely welded to IE6 because their interfaces only work in that browser OR those that are still using Windows 95/98/2000. If their IT setup is structured that way wellthey've got their own hole to dig out of. I guess what I'm getting at is that for new clients or redevelopments, we can do a lot to educate clients and customers and following on from that improve our lot as developers -- maybe even hasten IE6's demise. Thanks! James On Monday 04 August 2008 20:23:10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not wanting to hijack the PNG thread, so I've altered the subject. I understand the issues involve in huge migrations, it's not that easy.. At the risk of starting a war, it doesn't sound like you do understand. Before even starting to plan a migration, any decent corporation, of whatever size, must first demonstrate a business advantage to the task. The bigger the organisation is, the more likely they will have a desktop image (XP Pro) that can be applied to any machine they buy in, regardless of what is on it, so neither hardware obsolescence nor the withdrawal of software support holds a big fear for most. The true question is not 'why not upgrade to IE7?' but actually 'why change?'. I can give numerous reasons to upgrade to FF, but no real reasons to upgrade to IE7. As an aside, I am not at all worried by this - it was the longevity of IE4 that did most to make people aware of the alternatives; hopefully IE6 will have the same effect: a little more short-term pain for some long-term gain as they switch to Safari. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] Marking up a Calendar
A table is a good option for static calendars. i.e a grid. On the flip side, using a list based calendar, you'll be able to present it in different ways by altering the style rules for the elements, e.g as a pseudo-grid, a list etc etc. And of course, there's no reason why you can't do both options - the data used in the calendar is separate to the HTML, right ? HTH J On Wednesday 06 August 2008 10:43:49 8bits Media wrote: There's a few different opinions out there, but I think I agree with the responses from people on the list, tables make more sense. I found this example of a calendar marked up using a list http://www.cssnewbie.com/list-based-css-calendar/ but I think I'll be using a table in this instance. Nick. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
On Wednesday 13 August 2008 21:23:23 Krystian - Sunlust wrote: Could some of you guys trim the messages? It's really hard to read when you top post above useless tones of wording. Regards, Hi all This thread has gone off topic for the list, if you want to continue to discuss it, please do so off list or maybe take it up on a generic forum, like Sitepoint or similar. Of course, if you want to discuss ecomm apps in a web standards context (compliance, best practice, vendor support, extending etc) then please go ahead but discussing development rates, installation and problems with various software is off-topic. Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm If you have a question about this, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks James -- admin cc: core *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Google chrome... Coming very soon...
Interesting to read the many comments on this. It's utilising Webkit as a rendering engine (also behind Safari and Konquerer 4), which is BSD and LGPL licensed. In turn Google say they are licensing Chrome as Open Source, meaning depending on the actual license, items like V8 (http://blogoscoped.com/google- chrome/17) other bits (http://blogoscoped.com/google-chrome/38) can be utilised in other browsers. Interesting times and certainly more compelling and forward-thinking than Compatibility View ... Cheers James On Tuesday 02 September 2008 12:06:33 russ - maxdesign wrote: Some of the many comments about the proposed new Google browser... http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/fresh-take-on-browser.html http://blogoscoped.com/google-chrome/ http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2008-09-01-n47.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10029914-2.html http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_to_offer_its_own_browser_chrome . php http://www.smh.com.au/news/biztech/new-google-browser-to-muscle-in-on-micro s oft/2008/09/02/1220121183420.html Thanks Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Google chrome... Coming very soon...
You can grab the source from : http://code.google.com/chromium/ http://dev.chromium.org/Home and try to build it if you want .. According to the site, it won't (yet) build fully on Mac or Linux (http://dev.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/build-instructions-linux) but I'm sure it'll happen soon with enough contributions. Cheers J On Wednesday 03 September 2008 07:47:10 Bill Brown wrote: tee wrote: Google chrome is available for windows download ! http://www.google.com/chrome It has no Mac version! :( Nor Unix. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera not playing nice with checkbox
Tee:
I haven't seen your code but is it possible this is occurring because both
checkboxes and radios are, in fact, input elements ?
e.g
input {
border : #000;
background-color : #f00;
}
I'd suggest just adding a rule to text fields if that is what you want.
HTH
J
On Wednesday 10 September 2008 18:09:38 tee wrote:
Anybody encounters this?
Another annoying thing with Opera, is that if I have background or
border declared for input tag, it inherits it to checkbox and radio
button just like IE does.
I found a seemingly workaround here but it doesn't work for my page.
http://getsatisfaction.com/pingfm/topics/check_box_opera_9_5_osx
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Re: [WSG] URL length best practices
..and if you are truncating url paths based on a page title at a certain point, you'll end up with some odd urls sooner or later.. e.g example.com/blog/why-xyz-browser-sucks.html when your title is: Why XYZ browser sucks less than ABC browser RFC 2616 (HTTP/1.1) doesn't set a maximum length on a url but I think our friend IE limits it to about 2048 characters (see google). Either way, there is no good reason I can see to limit a url path to a certain number of characters. HTH J On Wednesday 05 November 2008 04:22:12 Todd Budnikas wrote: Wondering if people have insights into the length of a url for an article, and whether or not it is recommended to complete the name of an article in the url. For instance: http://egovau.blogspot.com/2008/10/do-collaborative-online-groups-need-to.h tml The name of this article is Do collaborative online groups need to be successful. The url above strips out be-successful. This may be the part of Blogger, or the author, but I've seen it in other instances with different Content Management systems as well. I personally would have added the additional words. Thoughts? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
CLOSED Re: [WSG] Question on servers and Email campaign
Hi Sherri and others.. This topic is outside the guidelines for the WSG list. Please feel free to continue it off list. Guidelines are available in the footer of each list message. Thanks James On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Graphics Web Designing, LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, I would like to thank all for reading this post and I do hope this is not against WSG standards. But I am really needing confirmation that I am not losing it and that I was right in protecting My clients as well as my server. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines?
Hi If there is CSS related issue that doesn't seem to want play nice, no matter what you do, it's probably a rule being set by the browser in its user agent stylesheet. In firefox's case, it's in firefox install dir/res/forms.css (for forms). Have a peek at that stylesheet and you'll see all the rules it applies by default to forms. If you can't override the rules in that CSS using your own (try !important) then start Firebug, bring up the rule in the Style tab. In the 'Options ' menu on the right you'll see an item called Show User Agent CSS - check that and you'll see the rules applied by Firefox to the relevant element. If the rule is now struck out, then it is being applied. In the case of legend, the relevant rule is: white-space : nowrap; So Ben's suggestion below will override it. Opera also has it's basic styles available in easy to read format, just search for them in the opera install dir. Not sure about Safari (I assume they are in some readable format). For IE, I doubt it.. it's still guesswork. they seem to be in a compiled format last time I looked but maybe that has changed. If all that fails. Set your legend to display : none and stick an h3 or something inside the fieldset below the legend, works just as well without the gutache. HTH James On Thursday 27 November 2008 13:49:19 Ben Lau wrote: try white-space:normal...? On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 1:43 PM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, that is the first thing I did. No use. Here is a quick page I just did. http://lotusseedsdesign.com/csstest/legend.html tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] E-commerce
Kevin There have been several discussions on the list regarding ecomm systems, you might find your answers browsing the archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=ecommercel=wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org Thanks James On Thursday 26 February 2009 16:27:17 Kevin Erickson wrote: Hi, Does anyone have input on what is a good Web standards e-commerce solution? Thanks, Kevin No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1969 - Release Date: 2/24/2009 6:43 AM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] blocking out of office replies [OT?]
Hi Not at the moment. For out of office replies I suggest you write a filter in your mail program checking the message subjects for the text out of office and variations., dumping them in another folder. Works for me, hardly ever see em. Return receipts are harder and we suggest people just turn them off when posting to the list. (Do you really want to to know if 5000 people have read your email ?) If you can't ignore or stop sending them because of various restrictions, consider using a gmail account for your mailing lists. gmail has IMAP and POP access so you can read send via your mail software if you wish. Thanks James -- admin. On Fri, 15 May 2009 05:15:17 pm dwain wrote: is there a way to block out of office replies from the list. this has been discussed before and it seems that the request has been ignored. cheers, dwain *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] SEO vs. Accessibility
On Wed, 27 May 2009 12:04:48 pm Chris Dimmock wrote: We can flag text that appears to be hidden using CSS at Google. To date we have not algorithmically removed sites for doing that. We try hard to avoid throwing babies out with bathwater. MattCutts at Oct 21 2005 - 02:09 That was nearly 4 years ago - One of the issues is that sometimes, Google does use automated scaleable' processes for spam control (as is their stated aim) - and sometimes it just rains babies. My point? Any CSS 'hiding' method can be detected algorithmically. And while it might be for accessibility/ usability/ whatever - it could get you in trouble. Mostly it won't, if a human checks it, and there is a accessibility/ usability/ rather than spam intent. But algorithms on their own can't detect 'intent'.. Exactly, there are some highly beneficial uses for hiding content, either off screen, with visbility hidden or with display none. A form spam honeypot field is one that comes to mind. I'm sure Google just don't focus on this alone and they have a number of other methods for detecting tricks to detect keyword spam. SEO is just another word for writing good balanced, content, having decent links in, links out and proper URL redirection methods. Cheers James Chris http://www.cogentis.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Remove CSS inheritance property
Hi
Firefox places 1em 0 anyway on p elements anyway (not sure about the other
browsers), so it (firefox) will define the same margin as your framework's p
rule.
Type this into your firefox address bar:
resource://gre/res/html.css
p, dl, multicol {
display: block;
margin: 1em 0;
}
You can also view it in firebug (options show user agent CSS)
w3c says this
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visudet.html#Computing_widths_and_margins
If 'margin-top', or 'margin-bottom' are 'auto', their used value is 0.
So you can't do #custom p { margin : auto; } as it will end up being computed
as margin : 0;
-- and firefox adheres to that rule.
Your best bet is to write your own rule or fiddle with the framework so it
doesn't rule your code (can't you specify which stylesheets load ?)
Cheers
James
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:36:47 pm Douglas Reith wrote:
Hi,
This might be basic to some people...
The site I'm working on has a default CSS that comes with the framework
that it runs on. The default CSS defines a property, specifically
p { margin: 1em 0; }
I can't edit the default CSS because it'll be updated with the framework
(won't be easy to maintain).
I've need to override the default CSS in certain sections of the site.
I'm simply using:
div id=CustomPage ...psomething/p.. /div
And then in my own stylesheet (for example):
#CustomPage p {
margin: 0 0;
}
Which works fine. However, what I would really like to do is actually
revert to the browser's margin property. That is, not override the
margin property but remove it. I don't want the default margin property
either. I just want the browser to define it.
Can this be done?
Thanks so much,
Doug
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Re: [WSG] website fonts
On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:00:27 pm Mark Harris wrote: Henry Mencia wrote: So you just have serif or sans serif in the font-family? Pretty much, unless a client specifies otherwise (and I'll try to talk them around). The biggest cost I have seen in web design since 1996, when I started, is the perceived need to make the web like the printed page. That, and the desire to make it pixel-identical in multiple browsers. Amen to that, in fact I'd suffix the pixel identical thing with and Internet Explorer. It (IE) is probably the costliest burden in web design and development over the last 5 years at least. Fonts : Nothing to stop anyone from specifying a font list and the generic family at the end of the list. That way you can aim for the font you like best, then the font which most people have (they may be the same) and then less common fonts you still want to display, then the family. e.g I did a site primarily for linux users and specified the font as: DejuVu Sans Condensed, FreeSans, Helvetica, Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans- serif; The first two are quite common on Linux (Liberation is also a good, open source, Verdana like font), Helvetica is a common Mac font, the last three pick up 99.% (tm) of the slack and sans-serif picks up those browsers without any of them installed. Once you get to sans-serif, you are at the mercy of how the user or org has configured the browser for sans-serif display. Some may set it to Times Roman, some to Comic Sans. It'd be nice to try and avoid that ;) Cool site for further reading : http://www.sansseriftype.com/ Cheers James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website fonts
To put what you wrote another way, with a font family list such as your example, the visitor is at the designer's mercy to see only the designer's choice of fonts, Yes, that's the point of typography and meeting the requirements of a client specification. Provided it's readable I don't see an issue and it can always be overridden. instead of the visitor's, even if the visitor has spent big money on high quality but uncommon fonts and chosen as default one of them. To actually see his choice, the visitor will have to set is browser to completely ignore the designer's font choices throughout all documents. Again, that's their choice. If they want to see their choice and know that they can do that, then they know how to do it, that's their requirement. The file they are viewing is in their cache, they can choose to do whatever they want with it. Like Mark, I say let the visitor's choice be the choice applied to most content, with the designer specifying otherwise only to highlight or provide character, as in headings, emphasis, or menuing. On body at least, it should be enough to specify either serif or sans-serif (partial deference to visitor), or nothing at all (total deference to visitor). If the visitor wants Comic Sans, let him have it. It's his puter, not yours. or hers ;) but yeah if they want to uncheck Allow pages to choose their own fonts then they can go right ahead as you suggest. What I'm suggesting is developing to the 50th percentile and making the design work for the majority of the audience. I'd suggest the outliers would be those who require different fonts for low vision requirements (a valid requirement), are die-hard fontists who like to control things (their choice, they can do the work to change the font) or have a love affair with viewing everything in SomeCrazyFont (and try to explain that one to a designer who sees their typographic design looking like crap). Cheers J *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] table inside a dd?
Hi Two good resources may help you here: HTML help: http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/lists/dd.html Contents Inline elements, block-level elements The DTD for XHTML (strict e.g): http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd and http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/dtds.html#a_dtd_XHTML-1.0-Strict !-- definition lists - dt for term, dd for its definition -- !ELEMENT dd %Flow; !ATTLIST dd %attrs; Meaning you can add pretty much any element inside a dd. Whether it's the best way to do it, is another matter which I think the other replies answer. HTH James On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 03:18:35 pm Tim MacKay wrote: Hi all, Is it semantic markup to include a table of items ( in this case a nutritional information table ) as the contents of a dd within a definition list? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Multiple IE's for browser testing
Hi Use virtualbox (.org) and run up a virtual machine that only has IE7 on it. You can do this by installing XP into the virtual machine and updating it to IE7. Remember to turn off Windows Update so it doesn't upgrade to IE8 when you are not looking. Virtualisation is the only real way to get an IE that matches what site visitors are using, meaning less fubar when debugging an issue. (I don't see the general public browsing with a MultipleIE browser). Note you will need a Windows license for each virtualised Windows machine you use. HTH James On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:04:13 am Kristine Cummins wrote: I've recently downloaded IE8 and now my standalone IE7 refuses to work. Anyone else have this issue and have a better way to get IE to cooperate for Webmasters??? I downloaded the standalone at http://tredosoft.com/Multiple_IE Thanks for your time, Kristine *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Major memory leaking in IE
Hi Try looking at Drip, an IE memory leak detector: http://www.outofhanwell.com/ieleak/index.php?title=Main_Page (first result in Google) https://ieleak.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/ieleak/trunk/drip/docs/index.html Thanks James On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Mads Erik Forberg m...@hardware.no wrote: Yeah, me to.. But to answer your other question, it runs slower over time. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS Validation Error
Hi
You can safely ignore any -prefix validation errors (-moz, -webkit, -opera)
- they are never going to validate on the W3C validator. The point of the
vendor specific rules is to do stuff the W3C haven't standardised yet.
The validator should probably ignore them as well. If you really must have a
valid stylesheet then you can stick vendor specific stuff in a vendor.css
and not validate it (because it won't).
#blob {
border-radius : 5px;
-webkit-border-radius : 5px;/* safari, chrome, arora etc */
-moz-border-radius : 5px;/* firefox and pals*/
-khtml-border-radius : 5px;/* konquerer */
}
Noting that webkit and moz have different names for the rules, watch out for
that.
Theoretically, when a browser supports border-radius, it should switch from
its vendor specific rule to the standard rule.
Cheers
James
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Thierry Koblentz
thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote:
-moz is a vendor prefix (not CSS3)
--
Regards,
Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com
*From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
Behalf Of *Daniel Anderson
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 03, 2010 3:12 PM
*To:* wsg
*Subject:* [WSG] CSS Validation Error
When I am validating a site that I am working on using the W3C Validator I
get errors with *-moz-border-radius-bottomleft*.
Is this because it is CSS3?
Error Reads:
Property -moz-border-radius-bottomleft doesn't exist : 5px 5px
Cheers
Daniel
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Re: [WSG] CSS Validation Error
Hi I guess it's understand the consequences and use at your own risk. I doubt a vendor will change the spelling and if they do, I'm pretty sure they'd maintain BC by allowing both to work. Using the example of *-radius, the vendor differences are more to do with what the values selected will render as rather than the naming, for instance webkit allows elliptical curves while moz only allows regular curves: http://www.css3.info/border-radius-apple-vs-mozilla/ Apparently, webkit more closely resembles the CSS3 spec. Mozilla may change their interpretation leading to possibly unexpected results (which you can then fix). Opera is apparently going to be supporting 'border-radius' in an upcoming Presto release. The end-goal is for all the major browsers to switch to border-radius and then ignore their vendor specifc version, to avoid conflicts. There are plenty of options to create curve-edged boxes but the CSS method is the easiest programatically to implement, followed by creating PNG quadrants on the fly with Imagick or similar and positioning them using CSS. Opera allows SVG backgrounds, so they can be created on-the-fly as XML. Plenty of designers cap a box top and bottom with two curved slices but that's a pain to implement in flexible layouts. To answer a question further back, yes border-radius should be last in the list after the vendor extensions. Cheers James They aren't guaranteed future-compatible. Vendor: We propose this feature and have implemented this as -vendor-foo Other Vendor: Well, it has these problems, what if ... Vendor: OK. We've changed the way it works. All the slightly older clients supporting the original implementation promptly break. How would this be implemented anyway? Anything that looks like a vendor prefix works? -moz-bowder-wadius: Congratulations! It is valid! But why doesn't it work? Or does someone try to maintain a list of all the different extensions? The CSS 2.1 specification lists 12 known vendors who use the vendor prefix. Who is going to maintain a central list of all proprietary extensions and the values they accept? How would they be versioned? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Difference between applied CSS and Computed CSS
Hi
One problem might be that you have the word paris before your doctype,
which shows up as the page is rendering:
paris
!DOCTYPE html P
Which could affect the CSS somewhat (at a guess). Try removing everything,
including white space and line breaks before the doctype.
I see the font size difference between the two different engines.
Gecko - Firefox 3.5.8
Webkit - Chrome (5.0.307.9 beta) / Arora (0.10.1)
Both Chrome and Arora show a larger font size than Firefox in the text
content under the Massage-modelage*
Dorsal/dev/serenitude/58-massage-modelage*-dorsal/flypage-ask-dynprice-duo.tpl.html
heading.
Additionally, it's fine to serve your CSS from any file provided it's valid
CSS of course and it sends the correct header to the browser. e.g in PHP
?php
header('Content-Type: text/css');
//stuff
?
- which you are doing judging by the file headers. The file extension
doesn't matter, it's just text.
Cheers
James
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Russ Weakley r...@maxdesign.com.au wrote:
Hi Rateb BEN MOUSSA
The reason for this can probably be found in one of your css files:
/dev/serenitude/templates/serenitude/css/css-5b04215701ad544b0144a40c4c2cdd38.php
In this css file you have a comment, a blank line and then an @charset:
/*** principale.css ***/
@charset utf-8;
The @charset MUST appear in the first line of a CSS file. As the canonical
document on @charsets states:
Only one @charset rule may appear in an external style sheet and it must
appear at the very start of the document. It must not be preceded by any
characters, not even comments.
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-charset
From personal experience, I can tell you that while all other browsers may
be forgiving, Safari will ignore an entire style sheet if the @charset does
not appear at the very start of the file.
Easy to fix, profound difference (at least in Safari) :)
HTH
Russ
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Re: [WSG] Background music on web pages
Hi Give them all the background information that people have listed here. WCAG, usability info etc. If they still decide they want it, do as the client instructs. Make sure you code in a simple off switch configuration option into the site and when they want to change it, turn it off while counting to 10 backwards. Sometimes clients are like that episode of the Simpsons when Bart repeatedly burns his hand on the stove. You could also try doing an A/B test and provide some results to them for sound / no sound -- traffic, clicks, time on site etc. see: http://www.usertesting.com/. Cheers James On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Andrew Cunningham andr...@vicnet.net.auwrote: HI On 28/02/2010 6:18 PM, Brett Goulder wrote: I would just point your client to some usability articles and educate them why background music is very bad. although I tend to hate background music, even when it was in vogue way back when There are valid accessibility reason for playing sound files on page load. On one project i'm starting work on we are working with what UNESCO tends to refer to as a lesser used language on the internet. A lot of information needs to presented, but we also need to take into account mother language literacy levels, which are quite low in the target communities. So need to for usability and accessibility reasons to look at non-textual alternatives to textual material. So options to enable the playing of audio on page load is quite useful. Doesn't get around that problem of site navigation, maybe sound snippets and icons may help, but rendering complex semantics into small icons can be difficult if not impossible. This project has definitely shown me how much the web is mired in a literate model, and am stuggling with how to adapt to a model based on orality rather than literacy. My 2 cents would be to just not do it. for music I'd agree, for other purposes http://completeusability.com/regrettable-background-music/ Bruce P wrote: Smal player and an off button one can find immediately is a prerequisite :) Bruce - Original Message - From: Lesley Lutomski ubu...@webaflame.co.uk To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 6:50 AM Subject: [WSG] Background music on web pages Hi all, I apologise if this is off-topic, but I'd really appreciate some advice. I have clients who insist they want background music on their Web site. I've tried to dissuade them, but without success. What is the most acceptable/least intrusive method of doing this? UK licensing requirements differ depending on whether the music is downloadable or not, so I need to sort out the method in order to advise them on the licences. I'm still hoping the complexities of the licensing system will succeed where I've failed and put them off the whole notion, but in case not, I'd be most grateful for some input here. Thank you. Lesley *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Andrew Cunningham Senior Project Manager, Research and Development Vicnet State Library of Victoria 328 Swanston Street Melbourne VIC 3000 Ph: +61-3-8664-7430 Fax: +61-3-9639-2175 Email: andr...@vicnet.net.au Alt email: lang.supp...@gmail.com http://home.vicnet.net.au/~andrewc/http://home.vicnet.net.au/%7Eandrewc/ http://www.openroad.net.au http://www.vicnet.net.au http://www.slv.vic.gov.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] lost my web projects
Hi As this is a web design dev list please keep the discussions on-topic. If anyone wants to help Marvin please contact him directly. Thanks James (core admin bod) On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Uday uday.tew...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Marvin, You can try Easy Recovery Pro. if your hard drive is detecting properly. I tried it. it can even recover lost partitions. make sure when you recover, select folder wise recovery. Link: http://www.ontrackdatarecovery.com/file-recovery-software/ Cheers!! *Uday Teware* *Web Design | Web Dev. | SEO | WEB 2.0 Apps. | Redesign | +91 9763953743* *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] help
Hi Sorry, Marvin, but you raised this topic on the WSG list a few weeks back and, if memory serves me correctly, it was deemed off-topic. While it's obviously a very annoying situation to be in, it really has nothing to do with the WSG. Please stick to the mailing list guidelines when posting. If there are people on the list who have helped you in the past and you think can help you again, try emailing them directly. Remember, your messages go to over 7000 subscribers. If anyone wants to try and help Marvin, please do so off-list to avoid populating the list with spurious remarks and replies. Doing so will help improve the signal/noise ratio of the WSG mailing list. Many thanks James (admin) On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 4:32 AM, Marvin Hunkin startrekc...@gmail.comwrote: hi. well lost all my project a couple of months ago. dodgy system restore. corrupted hard disk. so with my toshiba satellite a300 you can set it back to default factory settings. thus wiping the drive. so lost all my projects, data, e-mails, links, contacts, etc. and my music. but been able to get most of the music back from a friend. now got a external 1 tb external drive. tried a few recovery programs. but either not accessible. did find one called recover my files, but to recover, you had to pay for the version. problem, i do not have a credit card or pay pal account. so, any one used recovery software that works with a screen reader, and is free. marvin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
