Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi, Martin Spott a écrit : Curtis Olson wrote: [] I think the more of these material settings we can support so that the model in the simulation looks just like the model in the 3d modeling tool, the better life will be. Indeed, this will also pave the way for interchangeability between the various OSG-supported formats. Certainly a good move - which leaves the orientation of AC3D models as a remaining issue Now, we already have approx. 1k5 3D Scenery models, so chances are high that quite a few are affected by such a change and I'd be happy to apply an automated conversion if this is technically possible. What are we going to do about the users of our Scenery. Should we: a) leave the Scenery 3D models unchanged until the next software release, thus leaving users of FlightGear/CVS with strange-looking 3D models; b) convert the Scenery 3D models _now_ together with the software at the risk of unsatisfied users of the latest official software release; c) sync this sort of major changes with a minor software release ? My vote goes to c). I did not follow that thread carefully until today when I released few models from me was affected by that change. I made the suggested fix ( copy rgb to amb ) as I don't have time to tweak all of them independently. I made changes in the base package CVS repository and they need now to be synch'ed with the scenery database. Martin, I think that b) is preferable, and as quickly as possible. As Mathias already said, that change won't affect users of v1.0.0 or v1.9.1, but will improve the visual of users of the CVS snapshots. Moreover, doing the copy now will allow future tweaking without the fear that ambient color may be overwritten in an unknown ( but certain ) future. Regards, -Fred -- Frédéric Bouvier http://my.fotolia.com/frfoto/ Photo gallery http://fgsd.sourceforge.net/FlightGear Scenery Designer -- The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi Frederic, Frederic Bouvier wrote: I did not follow that thread carefully until today when I released few models from me was affected by that change. I made the suggested fix ( copy rgb to amb ) as I don't have time to tweak all of them independently. I made changes in the base package CVS repository and they need now to be synch'ed with the scenery database. Sooner or later we're going to apply the proposed change to every model in the 'Scenemodels' repository, thus we're going to overwrite the respective files in the CVS Base Package anyway. We're just waiting for a few more opinions on wether we should have a software release which allows us to sync the feature change between the different involved repositories/packages/parties. Thanks for your comment, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi, On Thursday 19 March 2009 12:57:17 gerard robin wrote: Since i have not followed that topic may be a stupid question: will that animation longer working typematerial/type emission factor-propcontrols/lighting/instruments-norm/factor-prop red0.60/red green0.30/green blue0.20/blue /emission diffuse red1/red green1/green blue1/blue /diffuse ambient red1/red green1/green blue1/blue /ambient specular red0/red green0/green blue0/blue /specular shininess4/shininess I am using it, to light the instruments XML model changes are not affected by the code change. So, only material properties that are in the ac file are *no* *longer* changed by the loading process. So, now you get in flightgear what you have in the ac file. Before, you got in flightgear, what flightgear changed in the ac file. Greetings Mathias -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi Heiko, On Thursday 19 March 2009 14:11:30 Heiko Schulz wrote: what does that mean in future for me as 3d-modeller? What I have to change when using Blender? Since I do not know blender too much, I cannot give blender specific hints. But in general, I would say: Just go on like you are used to. You have just more control over the material properties of the models. What might happen, is that your modelers default viewer light settings have very different lighting components from the one you might find at different day times/light conditions in flightear. So you may need to play with different light settings in the viewer. Greetings Mathias -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Am Donnerstag, den 19.03.2009, 13:11 + schrieb Heiko Schulz: Hello, what does that mean in future for me as 3d-modeller? What I have to change when using Blender? To get the same results as before you just need to change the Ambient Value to 1.0. You find it in the Material Buttons Shaders menu Slider Amb). However I think a setting of 0.75 gives a more realistic metal look, especially in the morning or evening hours. Of course for less reflecting materials like fabric or wood this is different. You may want to play with the Reflective settings (in Shaders Menu Ref too. I have commited some changes to the F4U and Beaufighter yesterday. You may want to look at that. Overall I like the new Look very much, the Modeller has better control over the Materials now. Thanks a lot Mathias! Rgards HHS Hi, Given this thread. I have checked in the change to simgear. I have also updated the default c172 and selectively those submodels that I thought need some update. And I have updated all the ac models in the AI and the Models subdirectory. For the specific aircraft models, I do not want to just overwrite what the author might have done on purpose but what was not yet honoured by flightgear. So, if there are very dark models, the attached script to do the change on the model level might be a good starting point for further development. Greetings Mathias -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Detlef Faber http://www.sol2500.net/flightgear -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi, yes, it seems to me, that time was passing real fast since the old plib-days! I have to wait until I have a new binary, then I will change my models. Thanks for the helpfull answers Regards HHS Hello, what does that mean in future for me as 3d-modeller? What I have to change when using Blender? To get the same results as before you just need to change the Ambient Value to 1.0. You find it in the Material Buttons Shaders menu Slider Amb). However I think a setting of 0.75 gives a more realistic metal look, especially in the morning or evening hours. Of course for less reflecting materials like fabric or wood this is different. You may want to play with the Reflective settings (in Shaders Menu Ref too. I have commited some changes to the F4U and Beaufighter yesterday. You may want to look at that. Overall I like the new Look very much, the Modeller has better control over the Materials now. Thanks a lot Mathias! Rgards HHS Hi, Given this thread. I have checked in the change to simgear. I have also updated the default c172 and selectively those submodels that I thought need some update. And I have updated all the ac models in the AI and the Models subdirectory. For the specific aircraft models, I do not want to just overwrite what the author might have done on purpose but what was not yet honoured by flightgear. So, if there are very dark models, the attached script to do the change on the model level might be a good starting point for further development. Greetings Mathias -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Detlef Faber http://www.sol2500.net/flightgear -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi Tim, On Tuesday 17 March 2009 19:58:02 Tim Moore wrote: That needs to be handled in the shader program. The OpenGL fog parameters are available as uniforms in shaders. Sure, but you need to rewrite that in every shader? Sure, that is the was OpenGL/OpenSceneGraph does this. How does this interact with the proposed changes of Robert Osfield to plug together shader programs from some fixed pipeine state attributes together with custom parts of the scenegraph user? Did you follow this discussion on osg-users? I have been following that. I think that work applies to a situation where you don't have a fixed function pipeline anymore -- like in OpenGLES 2.0 and OpenGL 3.x -- and want to keep OSG programs that use state sets running. Eventually, as we use shaders more ourselves and want to run in these new environments, we'll need to worry about being compatible, but for now it's not an issue. Hmm, My impression was that OpenGL 3.0 was the starting point for that thoughts. But the consequences, that you can plug together your shaders from predefined components and replace only those components that need to be replaced is a critical thing for shader use. And this is currently a huge problem with OpenGL I think. From my point of view, once shaders are in use, the fact that you have to replace the whole pipeline forces you to either: * reimplement all the same common stuff in each shader that is in use. Which is a maintainance nightmare if you want to change something here. * or reinvent such a shader component thing yourself which is a huge amount of work to get right. Both is not nice to do! Which one is your choice? So my impression was that Robert started thinking about something that makes such a component wise shader structure happen. So, all I think is that we should keep the eyes open to not end with something that we cannot handle in the longer term ... OTOH, I see that people want to make use of that nifty shader thing... Sure ... While OpenGL 3.0 started to move things into a direction that brakes compatibility, that comment on OpenGL 3.1 changing again an a non OpenGL whateverversion compatible way made me frighten ... So, I see very well, that this kind of changes need to happen, especially when you know how a gpu works and how bad the legacy OpenGL api is in terms of implementation and partly runtime complexity to map that api onto such a hardware. But *sigh* Greetings Mathias -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi, Given this thread. I have checked in the change to simgear. I have also updated the default c172 and selectively those submodels that I thought need some update. And I have updated all the ac models in the AI and the Models subdirectory. For the specific aircraft models, I do not want to just overwrite what the author might have done on purpose but what was not yet honoured by flightgear. So, if there are very dark models, the attached script to do the change on the model level might be a good starting point for further development. Greetings Mathias color-change.sh Description: application/shellscript -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
On jeudi 19 mars 2009, Mathias Fröhlich wrote: Hi, Given this thread. I have checked in the change to simgear. I have also updated the default c172 and selectively those submodels that I thought need some update. And I have updated all the ac models in the AI and the Models subdirectory. For the specific aircraft models, I do not want to just overwrite what the author might have done on purpose but what was not yet honoured by flightgear. So, if there are very dark models, the attached script to do the change on the model level might be a good starting point for further development. Greetings Mathias Since i have not followed that topic may be a stupid question: will that animation longer working typematerial/type emission factor-propcontrols/lighting/instruments-norm/factor-prop red0.60/red green0.30/green blue0.20/blue /emission diffuse red1/red green1/green blue1/blue /diffuse ambient red1/red green1/green blue1/blue /ambient specular red0/red green0/green blue0/blue /specular shininess4/shininess I am using it, to light the instruments Thanks -- Gérard http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/ J'ai décidé d'être heureux parce que c'est bon pour la santé. Voltaire -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
On jeudi 19 mars 2009, gerard robin wrote: On jeudi 19 mars 2009, Mathias Fröhlich wrote: Hi, Given this thread. I have checked in the change to simgear. I have also updated the default c172 and selectively those submodels that I thought need some update. And I have updated all the ac models in the AI and the Models subdirectory. For the specific aircraft models, I do not want to just overwrite what the author might have done on purpose but what was not yet honoured by flightgear. So, if there are very dark models, the attached script to do the change on the model level might be a good starting point for further development. Greetings Mathias Again, with a remark, That last FG code makes contrast from light side to dark side very high . It does not take in account the indirect light which give some light on the dark side of an object. Most of the aircrafts are now black or white :( Even with the noon time. Won't it be possible to reduce the contrast , or to give some indirect enlightenment ? -- Gérard http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/ J'ai décidé d'être heureux parce que c'est bon pour la santé. Voltaire -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hello, what does that mean in future for me as 3d-modeller? What I have to change when using Blender? Rgards HHS Hi, Given this thread. I have checked in the change to simgear. I have also updated the default c172 and selectively those submodels that I thought need some update. And I have updated all the ac models in the AI and the Models subdirectory. For the specific aircraft models, I do not want to just overwrite what the author might have done on purpose but what was not yet honoured by flightgear. So, if there are very dark models, the attached script to do the change on the model level might be a good starting point for further development. Greetings Mathias -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
On jeudi 19 mars 2009, gerard robin wrote: On jeudi 19 mars 2009, gerard robin wrote: On jeudi 19 mars 2009, Mathias Fröhlich wrote: Hi, Given this thread. I have checked in the change to simgear. I have also updated the default c172 and selectively those submodels that I thought need some update. And I have updated all the ac models in the AI and the Models subdirectory. For the specific aircraft models, I do not want to just overwrite what the author might have done on purpose but what was not yet honoured by flightgear. So, if there are very dark models, the attached script to do the change on the model level might be a good starting point for further development. Greetings Mathias Again, with a remark, That last FG code makes contrast from light side to dark side very high . It does not take in account the indirect light which give some light on the dark side of an object. Most of the aircrafts are now black or white :( Even with the noon time. Won't it be possible to reduce the contrast , or to give some indirect enlightenment ? Hmmm, forget it , with modeling, we will only have to take in account that feature and probably to revisit the colors aspect. Many days or night to spend on it. -- Gérard http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/ J'ai décidé d'être heureux parce que c'est bon pour la santé. Voltaire -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi Martin, On Monday 16 March 2009 21:25:06 Martin Spott wrote: Now, we already have approx. 1k5 3D Scenery models, so chances are high that quite a few are affected by such a change and I'd be happy to apply an automated conversion if this is technically possible. Attached is the script I have tried for some models. But be careful! We have many models that look better without material modification. What are we going to do about the users of our Scenery. Should we: a) leave the Scenery 3D models unchanged until the next software release, thus leaving users of FlightGear/CVS with strange-looking 3D models; b) convert the Scenery 3D models _now_ together with the software at the risk of unsatisfied users of the latest official software release; Note that, if you change any ac model, this change will *not* show up in the official release of flightgears viewer since the amb parameter in the material is *just* *ignored* with the past official release. You can only see that change if we remove that post processing step in model loading as proposed. Greetings Mathias color-change.sh Description: application/shellscript -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi Tim, On Monday 16 March 2009 22:43:22 Tim Moore wrote: I'm working on something that might completely ignore the material settings in the .ac file, but I think that's OK. I'm adding support for effects files that specify, in addition to the material and parameter properties we have now in the .ac file, shaders, uniform parameters for the shaders, fallbacks for environments that don't have shaders. So far I've been working with the terrain, but my idea for models is to associate an effect with a material in the .ac file by using the material's name. Ok! How does this handle scenery wide settings like fog or changes to the fog settings? How does this interact with the proposed changes of Robert Osfield to plug together shader programs from some fixed pipeine state attributes together with custom parts of the scenegraph user? Did you follow this discussion on osg-users? There will more to comment on when I check in the first effects stuff later this week. I am curious! :) So what files/parts are you working on. I have some time this week, as you might have noticed. I do not want to introduce unnecessary (CVS) conflicts with your work ... Greetings Mathias -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Mathias Fröhlich wrote: Hi Tim, On Monday 16 March 2009 22:43:22 Tim Moore wrote: I'm working on something that might completely ignore the material settings in the .ac file, but I think that's OK. I'm adding support for effects files that specify, in addition to the material and parameter properties we have now in the .ac file, shaders, uniform parameters for the shaders, fallbacks for environments that don't have shaders. So far I've been working with the terrain, but my idea for models is to associate an effect with a material in the .ac file by using the material's name. Ok! How does this handle scenery wide settings like fog or changes to the fog settings? That needs to be handled in the shader program. The OpenGL fog parameters are available as uniforms in shaders. How does this interact with the proposed changes of Robert Osfield to plug together shader programs from some fixed pipeine state attributes together with custom parts of the scenegraph user? Did you follow this discussion on osg-users? I have been following that. I think that work applies to a situation where you don't have a fixed function pipeline anymore -- like in OpenGLES 2.0 and OpenGL 3.x -- and want to keep OSG programs that use state sets running. Eventually, as we use shaders more ourselves and want to run in these new environments, we'll need to worry about being compatible, but for now it's not an issue. There will more to comment on when I check in the first effects stuff later this week. I am curious! :) So what files/parts are you working on. I have some time this week, as you might have noticed. I do not want to introduce unnecessary (CVS) conflicts with your work ... I don't think we'll conflict. I've made a bunch of changes to SGExpression.hxx, some hacks to the property system, and files in scene/material. Tim -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi, it depends on how many models are currently involved in these changes and what are the advantages? Hi all, For ac models, we have currently a step in the scenery loading process that modifies the material settings to match the material settings of the old plib loader. In fact this just overwrites the material settings and throws away useful information that is in the ac file that is still there up to the point where we just destroy that information. I introduced that step at the time of the openscenegraph switch to make the transition easier. I would like to remove that step now and make use of the full material information contained in the ac file. I believe that this is a step into the right direction, but this *does* change the visual appearance of some of our models. So when this gets removed, I guess that some of the models material colours need to be adjusted in some way. Comments? Greetings Mathias -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
* Mathias Fröhlich -- Monday 16 March 2009: In fact this just overwrites the material settings and throws away useful information [...] I would like to remove that step now and make use of the full material information contained in the ac file. Gets my vote! Which elements of the MATERIAL entry are thrown away at the moment, or which adjustments do people have to be prepared for? m. -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
On lundi 16 mars 2009, Mathias Fröhlich wrote: Hi all, For ac models, we have currently a step in the scenery loading process that modifies the material settings to match the material settings of the old plib loader. In fact this just overwrites the material settings and throws away useful information that is in the ac file that is still there up to the point where we just destroy that information. I introduced that step at the time of the openscenegraph switch to make the transition easier. I would like to remove that step now and make use of the full material information contained in the ac file. I believe that this is a step into the right direction, but this *does* change the visual appearance of some of our models. So when this gets removed, I guess that some of the models material colours need to be adjusted in some way. Comments? Greetings Mathias AND now, again, working with poly ( face) not triangulated. Thanks for the work Cheers -- Gérard http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/ J'ai décidé d'être heureux parce que c'est bon pour la santé. Voltaire -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
On lundi 16 mars 2009, gerard robin wrote: On lundi 16 mars 2009, Mathias Fröhlich wrote: Hi all, For ac models, we have currently a step in the scenery loading process that modifies the material settings to match the material settings of the old plib loader. In fact this just overwrites the material settings and throws away useful information that is in the ac file that is still there up to the point where we just destroy that information. I introduced that step at the time of the openscenegraph switch to make the transition easier. I would like to remove that step now and make use of the full material information contained in the ac file. I believe that this is a step into the right direction, but this *does* change the visual appearance of some of our models. So when this gets removed, I guess that some of the models material colours need to be adjusted in some way. Comments? Greetings Mathias AND now, again, working with poly ( face) not triangulated. Thanks for the work Cheers Ouups sorry was the wrong topic -- Gérard http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/ J'ai décidé d'être heureux parce que c'est bon pour la santé. Voltaire -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi, On Monday 16 March 2009 11:31:08 Heiko Schulz wrote: it depends on how many models are currently involved in these changes and what are the advantages? I do not know which models are affected. And this is not easy to say. As some of the models just look different but not worse. Some of the models are just way too dark. The advantage is that you have more control over the material property of your surfaces. My personal impression with that change here in my local tree is that the models look better when they move - even if some colors look too dark at the first time. The surfaces behave more natural when the light direction changes. Well this is clearly my personal impression. The ac3d format has all 4 fields for the OpenGL material definitions. As far as I remember this post processing step ignores the ambient color and sets that equal to the diffuse one - or the other way round. ... may be I need to dig into that. I had at some time a sed script that just modified the material definitions the same way the post processing step did. But that is questionable too. Greetings Mathias -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Hi, On Monday 16 March 2009 12:22:31 Melchior FRANZ wrote: Gets my vote! Which elements of the MATERIAL entry are thrown away at the moment, or which adjustments do people have to be prepared for? The ambient part (amb in the ac file) in the ac files is just ignored and set to the diffuse (rgb in the ac file) color part by the post processing step. So, all models with a different ambient color than the diffuse color will look different. It appears to me that some models have a very dark ambient color and this appear very dark on that side that points away from the sun. Greetings Mathias -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
On Mon, 2009-03-16 at 16:50 +0100, Mathias Fröhlich wrote: Hi, On Monday 16 March 2009 12:22:31 Melchior FRANZ wrote: Gets my vote! Which elements of the MATERIAL entry are thrown away at the moment, or which adjustments do people have to be prepared for? The ambient part (amb in the ac file) in the ac files is just ignored and set to the diffuse (rgb in the ac file) color part by the post processing step. So, all models with a different ambient color than the diffuse color will look different. It appears to me that some models have a very dark ambient color and this appear very dark on that side that points away from the sun. Greetings Mathias Shouldn't ambient color be set scene wide? From an artistic point of view I can see setting it on a per-material basis, but for a simulation environment that controls the direct lighting already it makes sense to give the ambient color over to the environment. My two cents, Thanks, Ron -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
* Mathias Fröhlich -- Monday 16 March 2009: The ambient part (amb in the ac file) in the ac files is just ignored and set to the diffuse (rgb in the ac file) color part by the post processing step. Thanks. So getting the old result is beyond trivial. Then there's IMHO no reason to delay this step. Taking the settings in *.ac files seriously is the right thing to do. Ignoring parts of them was acceptable for the transition phase, but in the long term it's just a bug. For me that's a clear please go ahead! (If someome doesn't want to bother fixing his/her aircraft: Just tell me and I'll make amb=rgb for them. Or rather, as script will do that. :-) m. PS: Thanks for all your recent work on fgfs. To me none of that looks like a fun job, but people are already noticing the big improvements. Sometimes I wonder what frame rates we would have today without your contributions, and my guess is 50%. It started with your rewriting/overhauling of plib's ac3d loader, then osg's ac3d loader, and ... -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
* Ron Jensen -- Monday 16 March 2009: Shouldn't ambient color be set scene wide? From an artistic point of view I can see setting it on a per-material basis, but for a simulation environment that controls the direct lighting already it makes sense to give the ambient color over to the environment. Hmm, maybe. But if you run the bo105 and use the Ctrl-y dialog, then you see what effects the various sliders have. And while some of them look just ugly and unrealistic, others don't. People who don't want separate control over diffuse and ambient can still just use the same values for both. But there's no reason to artificially limit possibilities IMHO. And in the end, different ambient and diffuse is what people will see in the AC3D editor. Breaking that appearance in fgfs is hard to justify. m. -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Ron Jensen wrote: Shouldn't ambient color be set scene wide? From an artistic point of view I can see setting it on a per-material basis, but for a simulation environment that controls the direct lighting already it makes sense to give the ambient color over to the environment. Actually no. For each surface there are ambient, diffuse, specular, and emissive properties. These define the surface properties. For each light souce there are also ambient, diffuse, specular, and and emissive components. This defines the nature of the light that is cast on the surface. OpenGL combines the light source properties and the surface material properties to produce the actual visible color of the surface that is reflected back to the viewer. So it is correct to define the ambient, diffuse, specular, and emissive properties of the model surfaces. The environment defines the corresponding values for the light that illuminates the surface. OpenGl computes the correct color that is reflected back for each pixel. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Im also in favor of this change I prefer to control the ambient property , myself. Cheers -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 2:16 PM, syd adams wrote: Im also in favor of this change I prefer to control the ambient property , myself. Let me also chip in that in a past simulation system I worked with, it was always highly annoying when a model looked good in the 3d modeler tool, but looked awful or just different once it was loaded up in the real time simulation. I think the more of these material settings we can support so that the model in the simulation looks just like the model in the 3d modeling tool, the better life will be. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Curtis Olson wrote: [] I think the more of these material settings we can support so that the model in the simulation looks just like the model in the 3d modeling tool, the better life will be. Indeed, this will also pave the way for interchangeability between the various OSG-supported formats. Certainly a good move - which leaves the orientation of AC3D models as a remaining issue Now, we already have approx. 1k5 3D Scenery models, so chances are high that quite a few are affected by such a change and I'd be happy to apply an automated conversion if this is technically possible. What are we going to do about the users of our Scenery. Should we: a) leave the Scenery 3D models unchanged until the next software release, thus leaving users of FlightGear/CVS with strange-looking 3D models; b) convert the Scenery 3D models _now_ together with the software at the risk of unsatisfied users of the latest official software release; c) sync this sort of major changes with a minor software release ? My vote goes to c). Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [RFC] ac3d and materials
Mathias Fröhlich wrote: Hi all, For ac models, we have currently a step in the scenery loading process that modifies the material settings to match the material settings of the old plib loader. In fact this just overwrites the material settings and throws away useful information that is in the ac file that is still there up to the point where we just destroy that information. I introduced that step at the time of the openscenegraph switch to make the transition easier. I would like to remove that step now and make use of the full material information contained in the ac file. I believe that this is a step into the right direction, but this *does* change the visual appearance of some of our models. So when this gets removed, I guess that some of the models material colours need to be adjusted in some way. Comments? I'm working on something that might completely ignore the material settings in the .ac file, but I think that's OK. I'm adding support for effects files that specify, in addition to the material and parameter properties we have now in the .ac file, shaders, uniform parameters for the shaders, fallbacks for environments that don't have shaders. So far I've been working with the terrain, but my idea for models is to associate an effect with a material in the .ac file by using the material's name. There will more to comment on when I check in the first effects stuff later this week. Tim -- Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
