Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
- Original Message From: Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk Okay - that's not entirely KDE's problem; though it would have helped a long way with the KDE4 transition if they kept a few people working on those issues. How would you feel if you were a KDE dev told we're all going to play with the cool new toys now, but we want you to stay here and look after the boring musty old stuff.? It would be bad enough if you were being paid for it. Many software developers are exactly in that position. So what? it's what you do when you want to maintain something. That's the also very much the case with numerous kernel developers - they work to keep older versions going as Linus and team move to the next version. So yes, there are even volunteers that will do it. The big issue is that in moving to sole development of KDE4, distros started to drop KDE3 and replace it with KDE4. For example, Kubuntu 8.04 TLS dropped KDE3 and used KDE4 long before KDE4 was really user worthy - long before KDE was calling it user worthy. I think that says more about Ubuntu than KDE, after all ,they'd done a similar thing with GNOME/Unity now. There were other distros too. Gentoo dropped KDE3 around 4.3. But KDEs actions of moving sole development to KDE4 prompted most distributions to do likewise. Many distros, especially the enterprise focussed ones like SUSE, kept 3.5 around for quite a while. Had they kept a small team working on at least the build issues until KDE4 reached 4.3 then the transition would have likely gone a lot smoother. True, but no one expected it to take that long to get ready, and diverting resources to look after 3.5 would have meant it taking even longer. So install a distro that still supports KDE3 if that's what you want or need. KDE 3.5.10 is still there, it hasn't been withdrawn from the shelves. You're hardly likely to use Gentoo for such users, so lack of core support for 3.5 in Gentoo is not an issue either. While I am not personally interested in it, please name one. Gentoo doesn't support KDE3 any more. You have to go to Trinity to get the newer, forked KDE3 series. Last I heard they were equivalent to a 3.5.12 or so; but I haven't seen anything on the Desktop list for a while about Trinity. Needless to say, you may be very hard pressed to find a modern, up-to-date distribution that offers KDE3 support. If it defaulted to KDE 3.5, it would be neither modern nor up to date. But at the time of the transition, when KDE4 was still too flakey for many, there were several - openSUSE for one. Difference between modern, up-to-date and functional versus modern, up-to-date, and bleeding-edge. If you are aiming for bleeding-edge, then yes, moving to KDE4 at 4.0 would have been fine. But most don't use or want to use bleeding edge - they want functional. In both cases they still want modern and up-to-date. Ben
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 2011-05-13 4:16 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote: KDE3 was fine as it was. I think that pretty much sums it up... No one forced anyone to upgrade to 4.0 when it was released. Anyone (you) could have continued using 3.x until *you* were satisfied with 4.x...
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Fri, 13 May 2011 07:19:35 -0700 (PDT), BRM wrote: KDE did seem to drop the ball a bit with their management of the transition from KDE3 to KDE4. There's no doubt it could have been a lot better. The problem was that it was based on their prediction that 4.0 would be a dev release while 4.1 would be usable, it wasn't. Okay - that's not entirely KDE's problem; though it would have helped a long way with the KDE4 transition if they kept a few people working on those issues. How would you feel if you were a KDE dev told we're all going to play with the cool new toys now, but we want you to stay here and look after the boring musty old stuff.? It would be bad enough if you were being paid for it. The big issue is that in moving to sole development of KDE4, distros started to drop KDE3 and replace it with KDE4. For example, Kubuntu 8.04 TLS dropped KDE3 and used KDE4 long before KDE4 was really user worthy - long before KDE was calling it user worthy. I think that says more about Ubuntu than KDE, after all ,they'd done a similar thing with GNOME/Unity now. But KDEs actions of moving sole development to KDE4 prompted most distributions to do likewise. Many distros, especially the enterprise focussed ones like SUSE, kept 3.5 around for quite a while. Had they kept a small team working on at least the build issues until KDE4 reached 4.3 then the transition would have likely gone a lot smoother. True, but no one expected it to take that long to get ready, and diverting resources to look after 3.5 would have meant it taking even longer. So install a distro that still supports KDE3 if that's what you want or need. KDE 3.5.10 is still there, it hasn't been withdrawn from the shelves. You're hardly likely to use Gentoo for such users, so lack of core support for 3.5 in Gentoo is not an issue either. While I am not personally interested in it, please name one. Gentoo doesn't support KDE3 any more. You have to go to Trinity to get the newer, forked KDE3 series. Last I heard they were equivalent to a 3.5.12 or so; but I haven't seen anything on the Desktop list for a while about Trinity. Needless to say, you may be very hard pressed to find a modern, up-to-date distribution that offers KDE3 support. If it defaulted to KDE 3.5, it would be neither modern nor up to date. But at the time of the transition, when KDE4 was still too flakey for many, there were several - openSUSE for one. -- Neil Bothwick Can vegetarians eat animal crackers? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 13/5/2011, at 8:27pm, Mick wrote: ... Here's mine if you want to compare with my previously sent output: $ cat /etc/env.d/02locale LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_NUMERIC=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_TIME=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=C LC_MONETARY=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_MESSAGES=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_PAPER=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_NAME=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_ADDRESS=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_GB.UTF-8 If you have LANG set, then there's no need to set any of the others to the same locale. If you set LC_TIME=POSIX then am / pm will display correctly. I.E.: $ cat /etc/env.d/02locale LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_TIME=POSIX $ The necessity for this is a glibc bug: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3768 This does, however, show the value of setting LANG over LC_ALL (it being impossible, as discussed, to override the latter). Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 13/5/2011, at 8:32pm, Mick wrote: ... $ date +%l:%M%P 8:39 That's the wall-clock time (p.m.) in my local time-zone. What Americans call daylight savings time, though how they imagine any time is saved I don't know. From `man date`: %l hour ( 1..12) ... %M minute (00..59) ... %p locale's equivalent of either AM or PM; blank if not known %P like %p, but lower case I'd be curious to compare with the output of `date +%r` on your system, but you probably actually want to set: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_TIME=POSIX in order to get the correct results. Hmm ... I've just set my locale as you suggest and get: $ date +%l:%M%P 8:29 (it's 20:29 right now) and $ date +%r 08:31:28 Sorry, didn't see this message before sending my reply to your previous one. Yes, it should say pm at the end, but did you reboot before checking? I believe these are sourced at startup in a way that renders this necessary. You *may* be able to `export LC_TIME=POSIX` in a shell, but I won't swear to it. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, 12 May 2011 09:38:15 -0500, Dale wrote: Which supports my point. Maintain KDE3 until KDE4 is stable and usable. If it is still working, which I think it is tho some fixes have had to be made, then why couldn't KDE support KDE3 just a little while longer. Because it would be more than a little while longer. Every day spent maintaining KDE3 is a day lost to KDE4, the priority was to get KDE4 stable and usable, KDE3 was fine as it was. The other answers is they didn't want to. KDE developers are either volunteers, doing what they want because they can, and what they want is working on neat stuff for the next release, not old code that is close to EOL. Or they are employed by the likes of distro makers, who also want the latest stuff for their products. -- Neil Bothwick WinErr 003: Dynamic linking error - Your mistake is now in every file signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, 12 May 2011 16:44:21 -0500, Dale wrote: Your questions don't disprove what me and others have posted. As I have said on the KDE mailing list, KDE made a serious mistake dropping KDE3 before KDE4 was ready. How exactly did they drop it? It's still available from ftp://ftp.kde.org/pub/kde/stable/3.5.10 even now and some distros still have packages for it. It never went away, you can still use it if you wish. -- Neil Bothwick Wow! That lightning sounds clo..it! NO CARRIER signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, 12 May 2011 10:51:32 -0400, Indi wrote: If it's as good as everyone says, what more support did it need? Did the KDE guys come knocking on your door to remove it, or do it remotely (Android anyone?), or did it just keep working? That argument is probably valid when limiting the scope of the discussion to gentoo, but the only use I ever had for kde3 was for non-techie users who wouldn't know whether to poop or go blind if they click on something and nothing happens So install a distro that still supports KDE3 if that's what you want or need. KDE 3.5.10 is still there, it hasn't been withdrawn from the shelves. You're hardly likely to use Gentoo for such users, so lack of core support for 3.5 in Gentoo is not an issue either. -- Neil Bothwick Suborbital Ballistic-Propulsion Engineer Not Exactly A Rocket Scientist signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:50:03AM +0200, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 12 May 2011 10:51:32 -0400, Indi wrote: If it's as good as everyone says, what more support did it need? Did the KDE guys come knocking on your door to remove it, or do it remotely (Android anyone?), or did it just keep working? That argument is probably valid when limiting the scope of the discussion to gentoo, but the only use I ever had for kde3 was for non-techie users who wouldn't know whether to poop or go blind if they click on something and nothing happens So install a distro that still supports KDE3 if that's what you want or need. KDE 3.5.10 is still there, it hasn't been withdrawn from the shelves. You're hardly likely to use Gentoo for such users, so lack of core support for 3.5 in Gentoo is not an issue either. I was just sharing my opinion, which was informed by my experience. I'm surprised by the vehemence and persistence of (apparently) political rhetoric in response to that. Obviously the solutions look really simple and matter-of-fact a year and a half later. The options were rather different while it was actually going on, and all one has to do is STFW to see that many people went through much distress over it. Frankly, I am not a fan of the shoot the messenger approach to dealing with bad news, especially as I really don't feel I've said anything but the truth of my own experience. OK I'm opinionated, but that opinion is backed by experience - that makes it anecdotal experience, something big corporations spend big money to compile so they can tune and shape their ideas. The message I'm getting is kde guys do not want any anecdotal experience unless it is glowing praise or perhaps minor suggestions, so I will not speak on it anymore. Employing all that sort of rhetoric has the effect of making discussion uncomfortable and restrictive, which I suppose is the idea. Personally, I do not wish to say any more on the matter, except to note that the sort of response I've encountered does not inspire hope for the future of kde. :( And with that, I am out on this subject, so if someone now needs to shame me and put me in my place again that's fine, and I will not respond so you'll have the last word. Just know that I do not subscribe to all that shame-based grandstanding silliness, so it's pretty much wasted on me. No hard feelings, I understand we all have our burdens in life. :) -- caveat utilitor ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Indi wrote: I was just sharing my opinion, which was informed by my experience. I'm surprised by the vehemence and persistence of (apparently) political rhetoric in response to that. Obviously the solutions look really simple and matter-of-fact a year and a half later. The options were rather different while it was actually going on, and all one has to do is STFW to see that many people went through much distress over it. Frankly, I am not a fan of the shoot the messenger approach to dealing with bad news, especially as I really don't feel I've said anything but the truth of my own experience. OK I'm opinionated, but that opinion is backed by experience - that makes it anecdotal experience, something big corporations spend big money to compile so they can tune and shape their ideas. The message I'm getting is kde guys do not want any anecdotal experience unless it is glowing praise or perhaps minor suggestions, so I will not speak on it anymore. Employing all that sort of rhetoric has the effect of making discussion uncomfortable and restrictive, which I suppose is the idea. Personally, I do not wish to say any more on the matter, except to note that the sort of response I've encountered does not inspire hope for the future of kde. :( And with that, I am out on this subject, so if someone now needs to shame me and put me in my place again that's fine, and I will not respond so you'll have the last word. Just know that I do not subscribe to all that shame-based grandstanding silliness, so it's pretty much wasted on me. No hard feelings, I understand we all have our burdens in life. :) +1 Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 12/5/2011, at 11:57pm, Dale wrote: Stroller wrote: On 12/5/2011, at 6:20pm, Dale wrote: Stroller wrote: `date +%l:%M%P` Here's mine: root@fireball / # date +%l:%M%P 12:19pm root@fireball / # And what are your locale settings? Stroller. root@fireball / # locale LANG=en_US.UTF8 LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF8 LC_NUMERIC=en_US.UTF8 LC_TIME=en_US.UTF8 LC_COLLATE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MONETARY=en_US.UTF8 LC_MESSAGES=en_US.UTF8 LC_PAPER=en_US.UTF8 LC_NAME=en_US.UTF8 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.UTF8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.UTF8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.UTF8 LC_ALL=en_US.UTF8 root@fireball / # locale -a C en_US en_US.iso88591 en_US.utf8 POSIX root@fireball / # That what you was needing? I'm more interested in what you put into /etc/env.d/02locale (or the equivalent for baselayout2). Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Stroller wrote: On 12/5/2011, at 11:57pm, Dale wrote: root@fireball / # locale LANG=en_US.UTF8 LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF8 LC_NUMERIC=en_US.UTF8 LC_TIME=en_US.UTF8 LC_COLLATE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MONETARY=en_US.UTF8 LC_MESSAGES=en_US.UTF8 LC_PAPER=en_US.UTF8 LC_NAME=en_US.UTF8 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.UTF8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.UTF8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.UTF8 LC_ALL=en_US.UTF8 root@fireball / # locale -a C en_US en_US.iso88591 en_US.utf8 POSIX root@fireball / # That what you was needing? I'm more interested in what you put into /etc/env.d/02locale (or the equivalent for baselayout2). Stroller. Here you go: root@fireball / # cat /etc/env.d/02locale LANG=en_US.UTF8 LC_ALL=en_US.UTF8 root@fireball / # Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
- Original Message From: Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk On Thu, 12 May 2011 16:44:21 -0500, Dale wrote: Your questions don't disprove what me and others have posted. As I have said on the KDE mailing list, KDE made a serious mistake dropping KDE3 before KDE4 was ready. How exactly did they drop it? It's still available from ftp://ftp.kde.org/pub/kde/stable/3.5.10 even now and some distros still have packages for it. It never went away, you can still use it if you wish. Ok, so personally I very much like KDE4 - been using it since 4.3 was stabilized on Gentoo and love it. That said... KDE did seem to drop the ball a bit with their management of the transition from KDE3 to KDE4. To start with, look at the reason why Gentoo dropped KDE3 from Portage - KDE stopped maintaining it and the builds started breaking as underlying library dependencies changed. So, sure you may be able to pull a binary build from KDE and use it; or (more likely) you'll spend hours and hours getting everything setup right - with all the correct versions of the dependencies, etc - to get it up and running. In other words, when KDE decided to move on to KDE4 full time they left the release as it was and it has since gotten harder to use by those that want to use it. Okay - that's not entirely KDE's problem; though it would have helped a long way with the KDE4 transition if they kept a few people working on those issues. The big issue is that in moving to sole development of KDE4, distros started to drop KDE3 and replace it with KDE4. For example, Kubuntu 8.04 TLS dropped KDE3 and used KDE4 long before KDE4 was really user worthy - long before KDE was calling it user worthy. But KDEs actions of moving sole development to KDE4 prompted most distributions to do likewise. As a result, KDE got a lot of flack for KDE4 not being ready for users b/c it wasn't - which KDE readily recognized and admitted. Had they kept a small team working on at least the build issues until KDE4 reached 4.3 then the transition would have likely gone a lot smoother. The userbase for KDE4 would have been smaller, so it may have taken a little longer to get some of the user feedback; but it would have greatly helped with aiding distributions and users making the transition instead of feeling like they were dumped from KDE 3.5.10 into KDE 4.0.1. So install a distro that still supports KDE3 if that's what you want or need. KDE 3.5.10 is still there, it hasn't been withdrawn from the shelves. You're hardly likely to use Gentoo for such users, so lack of core support for 3.5 in Gentoo is not an issue either. While I am not personally interested in it, please name one. Gentoo doesn't support KDE3 any more. You have to go to Trinity to get the newer, forked KDE3 series. Last I heard they were equivalent to a 3.5.12 or so; but I haven't seen anything on the Desktop list for a while about Trinity. Needless to say, you may be very hard pressed to find a modern, up-to-date distribution that offers KDE3 support. Ben
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 12:56:27PM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote On Wed, 11 May 2011 20:40:02 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: KDE devs decided to take the risk and make the jump ahead of the curve. Coca Cola went from Coke Classic to New Coke; at least they had the guts to admit that it was a bad idea, and reverse it. IBM walked away from their market leading AT. Rather than put a 386 cpu on the motherboard, they went with the PS/2 design, which bombed. Micropro *OWNED* word-processing with a DOS-port of their cpm-based Wordstar product. People were begging and pleading with them to patch it to recognize subdirectories. Instead, Micropro dropped Wordstar, and came up with a user friendly menu-driven abortion called Wordstar 2000. That was the end. Do you see a pattern here? The pattern I see is that of selecting only changes that failed and implying they are the norm. Why not add other improvements that were so bad, like the switch from floppy disks to hard disks, or CDs to DVDs? Companies try to predict where the market should go so they can lead. No one gets it right all the time, the ones that survive are those that get it right often enough. The ones that are most likely to fail are those that never try to innovate in case someone doesn't like it. Floppy disks were being sold long after hard disks were invented. Ditto for CDs after DVDs came out. If Coca Cola had brought out New Coke *IN ADDITION TO Coke Classic, it wouldn't have been a problem. New Coke would've died more quickly, and Coca Cola wouldn't have seen so much backlash. Corporations (IBM's biggest customers) were begging and pleading for ATs with a 386 CPU, not proprietary PS/2s. IBM ceased to manufacture ATs, and said PS/2s or nothing. IBM is no longer a force in the corporate desktop market. If Micropro had added directory support to Wordstar 3.3, it would've been around a lot longer, and Wordstar 2000 wouldn't have been the death blow it was. Hard drives and DVDs competed against their predecessors and won. They were obviously superior. But if your new and allegedly improved product can't stand on its own 2 feet and compete against older generation products, and you have to shut down or drop support for the older products for the new one to survive, then it's obvious that the new and improved product is a piece of crap. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Friday 13 May 2011 14:26:27 Dale wrote: Stroller wrote: On 12/5/2011, at 11:57pm, Dale wrote: root@fireball / # locale LANG=en_US.UTF8 LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF8 LC_NUMERIC=en_US.UTF8 LC_TIME=en_US.UTF8 LC_COLLATE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MONETARY=en_US.UTF8 LC_MESSAGES=en_US.UTF8 LC_PAPER=en_US.UTF8 LC_NAME=en_US.UTF8 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.UTF8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.UTF8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.UTF8 LC_ALL=en_US.UTF8 root@fireball / # locale -a C en_US en_US.iso88591 en_US.utf8 POSIX root@fireball / # That what you was needing? I'm more interested in what you put into /etc/env.d/02locale (or the equivalent for baselayout2). Stroller. Here you go: root@fireball / # cat /etc/env.d/02locale LANG=en_US.UTF8 LC_ALL=en_US.UTF8 root@fireball / # Dale :-) :-) Here's mine if you want to compare with my previously sent output: $ cat /etc/env.d/02locale LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_NUMERIC=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_TIME=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=C LC_MONETARY=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_MESSAGES=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_PAPER=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_NAME=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_ADDRESS=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_GB.UTF-8 -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thursday 12 May 2011 22:48:04 Stroller wrote: On 12/5/2011, at 8:41pm, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Thursday 12 May 2011 18:06:27 Stroller wrote: Could you possibly post the output of `date +%l:%M%P`? In doing so you'd be doing me a favour. $ date +%l:%M%P 8:39 That's the wall-clock time (p.m.) in my local time-zone. What Americans call daylight savings time, though how they imagine any time is saved I don't know. From `man date`: %l hour ( 1..12) ... %M minute (00..59) ... %p locale's equivalent of either AM or PM; blank if not known %P like %p, but lower case I'd be curious to compare with the output of `date +%r` on your system, but you probably actually want to set: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_TIME=POSIX in order to get the correct results. Hmm ... I've just set my locale as you suggest and get: $ date +%l:%M%P 8:29 (it's 20:29 right now) and $ date +%r 08:31:28 Shouldn't the former say pm at the end? -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Friday 13 May 2011 18:57:47 Walter Dnes wrote: On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 12:56:27PM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote On Wed, 11 May 2011 20:40:02 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: KDE devs decided to take the risk and make the jump ahead of the curve. Coca Cola went from Coke Classic to New Coke; at least they had the guts to admit that it was a bad idea, and reverse it. IBM walked away from their market leading AT. Rather than put a 386 cpu on the motherboard, they went with the PS/2 design, which bombed. Micropro *OWNED* word-processing with a DOS-port of their cpm-based Wordstar product. People were begging and pleading with them to patch it to recognize subdirectories. Instead, Micropro dropped Wordstar, and came up with a user friendly menu-driven abortion called Wordstar 2000. That was the end. Do you see a pattern here? The pattern I see is that of selecting only changes that failed and implying they are the norm. Why not add other improvements that were so bad, like the switch from floppy disks to hard disks, or CDs to DVDs? Companies try to predict where the market should go so they can lead. No one gets it right all the time, the ones that survive are those that get it right often enough. The ones that are most likely to fail are those that never try to innovate in case someone doesn't like it. Floppy disks were being sold long after hard disks were invented. Ditto for CDs after DVDs came out. If Coca Cola had brought out New Coke *IN ADDITION TO Coke Classic, it wouldn't have been a problem. New Coke would've died more quickly, and Coca Cola wouldn't have seen so much backlash. Corporations (IBM's biggest customers) were begging and pleading for ATs with a 386 CPU, not proprietary PS/2s. IBM ceased to manufacture ATs, and said PS/2s or nothing. IBM is no longer a force in the corporate desktop market. If Micropro had added directory support to Wordstar 3.3, it would've been around a lot longer, and Wordstar 2000 wouldn't have been the death blow it was. Hard drives and DVDs competed against their predecessors and won. They were obviously superior. But if your new and allegedly improved product can't stand on its own 2 feet and compete against older generation products, and you have to shut down or drop support for the older products for the new one to survive, then it's obvious that the new and improved product is a piece of crap. You are confusing matters. The launch of new improved product is often a matter of designed obsolescence of the old product for the purpose of generating additional sales. In a (pseudo)competitive capitalistic model this is what most consumer goods have been doing, canibalising their own previous generation of products. In a FOSS model this argument does not stand or make much sense. I think that the KDE devs made a strategic design decision and took KDE4 in a different direction than KDE3. Some of us we happier with the KDE3 ... a selection of apps, rather that a heavy duty integrated DE with semantic searches and what not. What is common between your examples and KDE is (perhaps?) the lack of adequate market research and testing. What-ever, life moves on of course and the wrinkles on KDE4 are being ironed out. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Am 13.05.2011 21:50, schrieb Mick: a selection of apps, rather that a heavy duty integrated DE with semantic searches and what not. I have written my thesis about semantic searches but I am absolut unable to use that feature in KDE. But that and the graphic distortions I have aside is KDE4 now useable. It is time for KDE5 to annoy the users again :-P Greetings Sebastian signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Hi Mick, On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 08:27:16PM +0100, Mick wrote: Here's mine if you want to compare with my previously sent output: $ cat /etc/env.d/02locale LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 *snip* This is all you need. LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 Or, If you are running a multi user system and do not want to force your other users into your language, you can use this line. It forces UTF-8 characters but does not force the language. William pgpykKLtDnyed.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Fri, 13 May 2011 13:57:47 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: But if your new and allegedly improved product can't stand on its own 2 feet and compete against older generation products, and you have to shut down or drop support for the older products for the new one to survive, then it's obvious that the new and improved product is a piece of crap. Can you provide documentation showing this was the reason work on KDE3 stopped? Or is this more FUD? Hint: You cannot shut down an open source project. -- Neil Bothwick Things are more like they are now than they ever were before. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 11 May 2011 15:43, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 15:45 on Wednesday 11 May 2011, Dale did opine thusly: Nikos Chantziaras wrote: On 05/11/2011 02:50 AM, Dale wrote: [...] What do you know, I upgraded and it worked. Now if I can just get rid of this Nepomuk thingy that pops up a bit after I login to KDE. You disable that in System Settings. There's an icon for it there. Or, you build KDE with -semantic-desktop in your make.conf, which builds KDE without it. This is odd. I thought I turned that off before but figured maybe a config update turned it back on. I just checked, it is turned off. That thing just won't die. lol I do have the USE flag enabled. I read somewhere that turning the flag off gets rid of a lot of stuff, some that I use on occasion. Has that changed? We all know the USE flag descriptions don't always shed much light on the real use of it. ;-) Maybe it will give up one day and just go away. You can't disable USE=semantic-desktop Parts of KDE don't (or soon won't) build at all without the configure options it provides. In other words, it's a gentoo thing and completely unsupported by KDE. Get used to having it enabled. Tis true, if you try to build kdepim-meta it'll go into a fit, because some package therein won't build without semantic-desktop. I had to put mine back. -- Regards, Mick
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Mike Edenfield wrote: On 5/11/2011 6:51 PM, Dale wrote: Does this look more better? root@fireball / # locale LC_PAPER=en_US.UTF8 LC_NAME=en_US.UTF8 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.UTF8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.UTF8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.UTF8 LC_PAPER, is that like paper in my printer? What the heck does it want my phone number, address and other stuff for? Some of that I get but some is just plain nosy. O_O These are all proposed, but ultimately rejected, POSIX extensions to hold other standard, region-specific settings. glibc grabbed onto them when the latest POSIX was still in draft status and implemented them. LC_PAPER is one of a few places that holds the default paper sizes (I think Debian has an /etc/papersize or some such). It's kinda silly, since en_US isn't a paper size, but roughly speaking, en_US = 8.5x11 letter and everything else = A4. The others are for tracking: proper name format (e.g. family name first or last); postal address format; telephone number format (local, international, etc); units of measurement (imperial vs. metric); and the standards that govern the rest of the formats. Support for them is pretty sketchy and you can probably safely ignore them :) --Mike I wouldn't mind setting them myself. It may not matter much right now but we all know how things change. Going to see what Google can find. Thanks. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
James Wall wrote: On May 11, 2011 4:38 PM, walt w41...@gmail.com mailto:w41...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/11/2011 03:10 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 11 May 2011 04:55:46 -0500, Dale wrote: I'll leave it like it is I guess. I like all the little green OK's that scroll up anyway. Reassuring, aren't they? I'd like a similar system for checking my marriage. +1 for the marriage checker. That would save me some headaches big time. James Wall I wish I had one before I got married. I'm just not into druggies. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Apparently, though unproven, at 02:40 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Walter Dnes did opine thusly: On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 05:45:07PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote KDE devs decided to take the risk and make the jump ahead of the curve. Coca Cola went from Coke Classic to New Coke; at least they had the guts to admit that it was a bad idea, and reverse it. IBM walked away from their market leading AT. Rather than put a 386 cpu on the motherboard, they went with the PS/2 design, which bombed. Micropro *OWNED* word-processing with a DOS-port of their cpm-based Wordstar product. People were begging and pleading with them to patch it to recognize subdirectories. Instead, Micropro dropped Wordstar, and came up with a user friendly menu-driven abortion called Wordstar 2000. That was the end. Do you see a pattern here? Yes. It's the pattern where you selectively cherry pick stuff that supports your point. Do you *really* want to go down this road? Because that argument can't end well for you. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Wed, 11 May 2011 20:40:02 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: KDE devs decided to take the risk and make the jump ahead of the curve. Coca Cola went from Coke Classic to New Coke; at least they had the guts to admit that it was a bad idea, and reverse it. IBM walked away from their market leading AT. Rather than put a 386 cpu on the motherboard, they went with the PS/2 design, which bombed. Micropro *OWNED* word-processing with a DOS-port of their cpm-based Wordstar product. People were begging and pleading with them to patch it to recognize subdirectories. Instead, Micropro dropped Wordstar, and came up with a user friendly menu-driven abortion called Wordstar 2000. That was the end. Do you see a pattern here? The pattern I see is that of selecting only changes that failed and implying they are the norm. Why not add other improvements that were so bad, like the switch from floppy disks to hard disks, or CDs to DVDs? Companies try to predict where the market should go so they can lead. No one gets it right all the time, the ones that survive are those that get it right often enough. The ones that are most likely to fail are those that never try to innovate in case someone doesn't like it. The important point is that KDE wanted something better, it's unfortunate that it took so much longer than planned, but it would have taken even longer if they had not tried. -- Neil Bothwick Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 5/12/2011 5:21 AM, Dale wrote: Mike Edenfield wrote: On 5/11/2011 6:51 PM, Dale wrote: Does this look more better? root@fireball / # locale LC_PAPER=en_US.UTF8 LC_NAME=en_US.UTF8 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.UTF8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.UTF8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.UTF8 The others are for tracking: proper name format (e.g. family name first or last); postal address format; telephone number format (local, international, etc); units of measurement (imperial vs. metric); and the standards that govern the rest of the formats. Support for them is pretty sketchy and you can probably safely ignore them :) I wouldn't mind setting them myself. It may not matter much right now but we all know how things change. Going to see what Google can find. They're already set, as your locale output showed :) The definitions of those various formats are built into the locale definitions, so they should have the same value as all your other LC_* variables. You can see your locale's idea of what those things mean in the localedef file (bring alone a Unicode character chart): /usr/share/i18n/locale/en_US --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 02:00:01PM +0200, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 11 May 2011 20:40:02 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: KDE devs decided to take the risk and make the jump ahead of the curve. Coca Cola went from Coke Classic to New Coke; at least they had the guts to admit that it was a bad idea, and reverse it. 88some snippage88 The important point is that KDE wanted something better, it's unfortunate that it took so much longer than planned, but it would have taken even longer if they had not tried. Just to clarify: I applaud the attempt, even if I find the current results questionable. The thing about KDE is it used to be instrumental for me in converting non-geek windows users to Linux. It was excellent for that. The new one really requires users who not only know what they're doing, but also have the inclination to fiddle and and tune all the time. Hopefully, this phase of it's development will soon draw to a conclusion and we'll once more be able to put non-tech users on kde without drama. But I apologise for opening that can of worms in the first place, it was probably not apropriate here. -- caveat utilitor ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Neil Bothwick wrote: The pattern I see is that of selecting only changes that failed and implying they are the norm. Why not add other improvements that were so bad, like the switch from floppy disks to hard disks, or CDs to DVDs? Companies try to predict where the market should go so they can lead. No one gets it right all the time, the ones that survive are those that get it right often enough. The ones that are most likely to fail are those that never try to innovate in case someone doesn't like it. The important point is that KDE wanted something better, it's unfortunate that it took so much longer than planned, but it would have taken even longer if they had not tried. I just hope they also learned from their mistakes. Dropping KDE3 support long before KDE4 was ready was a big one. That shouldn't be repeated. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Mike Edenfield wrote: They're already set, as your locale output showed :) The definitions of those various formats are built into the locale definitions, so they should have the same value as all your other LC_* variables. You can see your locale's idea of what those things mean in the localedef file (bring alone a Unicode character chart): /usr/share/i18n/locale/en_US --Mike A, I see. It sort of does like portage's profile. It points to a file where everything is config'd at. Kewl !! Now I wonder why PAPER is config'd as mm instead of inches. lol Thanks. Looks like I got everything set correctly, until it changes again. lol Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Apparently, though unproven, at 14:54 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Dale did opine thusly: Neil Bothwick wrote: The pattern I see is that of selecting only changes that failed and implying they are the norm. Why not add other improvements that were so bad, like the switch from floppy disks to hard disks, or CDs to DVDs? Companies try to predict where the market should go so they can lead. No one gets it right all the time, the ones that survive are those that get it right often enough. The ones that are most likely to fail are those that never try to innovate in case someone doesn't like it. The important point is that KDE wanted something better, it's unfortunate that it took so much longer than planned, but it would have taken even longer if they had not tried. I just hope they also learned from their mistakes. Dropping KDE3 support long before KDE4 was ready was a big one. That shouldn't be repeated. They can do any damn thing they want to with their code. They also you owe support for it in exactly the same amount you paid for it. Which is to say nothing. It's not a question of should, it's only a question of Dale would prefer it if -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Alan McKinnon wrote: They can do any damn thing they want to with their code. They also you owe support for it in exactly the same amount you paid for it. Which is to say nothing. It's not a question of should, it's only a question of Dale would prefer it if So, you think most of the KDE users were happy to see support for KDE3 being dropped, especially considering KDE4 was much less than stable? For me and a lot of others, it was worthless at first. It was good eye candy but not functional even for the little I do. Yea, it is what I want but it is also what MANY others wanted. Some of those people switched to something else or still use KDE3. It's their code, but if people stop using it, what is it really worth? I'm sure KDE wants to gain users not piss them off and make them go away. For me, if KDE does such a lousy switch over again, I'll be using something else. Given the posts I read where others have already done so, I doubt I would be alone. I'm all for second chances. We all learn the hard way sometimes. I'm just hoping KDE did. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 03:50:02PM +0200, Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: They can do any damn thing they want to with their code. They also you owe support for it in exactly the same amount you paid for it. Which is to say nothing. It's not a question of should, it's only a question of Dale would prefer it if So, you think most of the KDE users were happy to see support for KDE3 being dropped, especially considering KDE4 was much less than stable? For me and a lot of others, it was worthless at first. It was good eye candy but not functional even for the little I do. Yea, it is what I want but it is also what MANY others wanted. Some of those people switched to something else or still use KDE3. It's their code, but if people stop using it, what is it really worth? I'm sure KDE wants to gain users not piss them off and make them go away. For me, if KDE does such a lousy switch over again, I'll be using something else. Given the posts I read where others have already done so, I doubt I would be alone. I'm all for second chances. We all learn the hard way sometimes. I'm just hoping KDE did. I had 8 users on kde before 3 was deprecated in 2009. Now I have zero. It was a harrowing time, switching everyone to gnome, finding that is not so hot, finally putting them on xfce. If xfce gets a wild hair and changes my plan is to dumb down the fluxbox or openbox configs I have for my own use, add some scripting and call it a day. No-one disputes the freedom of the devs to do anything they wish with their code. It's just like anything else in life: you're free to do anything you want. Just know the consequences before you act or you may get burned. -- caveat utilitor ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Up until a few weeks ago I have never used kde opting for xfce and openbox and cannot make any comments about kde3 and upgrade. I always preferred the lighter desktops. I really like 4.x, it has lots of features and seems to me at least, very easy to use (intuitive). So perhaps the kde team will over new fans. Its oodles better than any of its contemicropories. JDM -Original Message- From: Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 08:46:32 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone? Alan McKinnon wrote: They can do any damn thing they want to with their code. They also you owe support for it in exactly the same amount you paid for it. Which is to say nothing. It's not a question of should, it's only a question of Dale would prefer it if So, you think most of the KDE users were happy to see support for KDE3 being dropped, especially considering KDE4 was much less than stable? For me and a lot of others, it was worthless at first. It was good eye candy but not functional even for the little I do. Yea, it is what I want but it is also what MANY others wanted. Some of those people switched to something else or still use KDE3. It's their code, but if people stop using it, what is it really worth? I'm sure KDE wants to gain users not piss them off and make them go away. For me, if KDE does such a lousy switch over again, I'll be using something else. Given the posts I read where others have already done so, I doubt I would be alone. I'm all for second chances. We all learn the hard way sometimes. I'm just hoping KDE did. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, 12 May 2011 08:46:32 -0500, Dale wrote: So, you think most of the KDE users were happy to see support for KDE3 being dropped, especially considering KDE4 was much less than stable? For me and a lot of others, it was worthless at first. It was good eye candy but not functional even for the little I do. I didn't switch until 4.3 or 4.4, KDE 3.5 worked fine for me up until then. It probably still works just as well now as part of the Trinity project. -- Neil Bothwick It's not a bug, it's tradition! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Apparently, though unproven, at 16:00 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: I had 8 users on kde before 3 was deprecated in 2009. Now I have zero. It was a harrowing time, switching everyone to gnome, finding that is not so hot, finally putting them on xfce. If xfce gets a wild hair and changes my plan is to dumb down the fluxbox or openbox configs I have for my own use, add some scripting and call it a day. So why didn't you just leave the users on KDE3? -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Indi wrote: On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 03:50:02PM +0200, Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: They can do any damn thing they want to with their code. They also you owe support for it in exactly the same amount you paid for it. Which is to say nothing. It's not a question of should, it's only a question of Dale would prefer it if So, you think most of the KDE users were happy to see support for KDE3 being dropped, especially considering KDE4 was much less than stable? For me and a lot of others, it was worthless at first. It was good eye candy but not functional even for the little I do. Yea, it is what I want but it is also what MANY others wanted. Some of those people switched to something else or still use KDE3. It's their code, but if people stop using it, what is it really worth? I'm sure KDE wants to gain users not piss them off and make them go away. For me, if KDE does such a lousy switch over again, I'll be using something else. Given the posts I read where others have already done so, I doubt I would be alone. I'm all for second chances. We all learn the hard way sometimes. I'm just hoping KDE did. I had 8 users on kde before 3 was deprecated in 2009. Now I have zero. It was a harrowing time, switching everyone to gnome, finding that is not so hot, finally putting them on xfce. If xfce gets a wild hair and changes my plan is to dumb down the fluxbox or openbox configs I have for my own use, add some scripting and call it a day. No-one disputes the freedom of the devs to do anything they wish with their code. It's just like anything else in life: you're free to do anything you want. Just know the consequences before you act or you may get burned. Yep. A lot of KDE users was upset. The thing is, if they had got out just a few more releases, it would have been much better. They were improving KDE4 pretty fast but not fast enough. Since KDE3 was fairly complete, all it needed was a little love here and there. They didn't have to reinvent the wheel every month to keep KDE3 running. It can't be to bad since some users got together and are still maintaining KDE3 tho I don't know how good that is working out since I don't have it installed here anymore. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, 12 May 2011 07:54:13 -0500, Dale wrote: I just hope they also learned from their mistakes. Dropping KDE3 support long before KDE4 was ready was a big one. That shouldn't be repeated. If it's as good as everyone says, what more support did it need? Did the KDE guys come knocking on your door to remove it, or do it remotely (Android anyone?), or did it just keep working? I'd say that you got excellent value for money, and a lot more support for an EOL product than you paid for. Yes, it would have been nice if they had waited until KDE4 was a little more polished before EOLing KDE3, but who would have paid for two dev teams? -- Neil Bothwick I thought I saw the light at the end of the tunnel... but it was just some sod with a torch bringing me more work! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 12 May 2011 08:46:32 -0500, Dale wrote: So, you think most of the KDE users were happy to see support for KDE3 being dropped, especially considering KDE4 was much less than stable? For me and a lot of others, it was worthless at first. It was good eye candy but not functional even for the little I do. I didn't switch until 4.3 or 4.4, KDE 3.5 worked fine for me up until then. It probably still works just as well now as part of the Trinity project. Which supports my point. Maintain KDE3 until KDE4 is stable and usable. If it is still working, which I think it is tho some fixes have had to be made, then why couldn't KDE support KDE3 just a little while longer. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 04:30:02PM +0200, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 12 May 2011 07:54:13 -0500, Dale wrote: I just hope they also learned from their mistakes. Dropping KDE3 support long before KDE4 was ready was a big one. That shouldn't be repeated. If it's as good as everyone says, what more support did it need? Did the KDE guys come knocking on your door to remove it, or do it remotely (Android anyone?), or did it just keep working? That argument is probably valid when limiting the scope of the discussion to gentoo, but the only use I ever had for kde3 was for non-techie users who wouldn't know whether to poop or go blind if they click on something and nothing happens (or the worng thing happens). I had all but two on openSuse and the rest on Kubuntu in the kde3 days, but kde3 is nowhere near as idiot-proof now on either of those distros. I do not want to support non-techie users using obscure, deprecated, unmaintained code for something as critical as their DE! It's hard enough when everything works as advertised... To be honest, I haven't quite worked up the courage to put any users on gentoo, though it's become the only distro I feel really good about using. If we had more uniform hardware it would be a lot less daunting and I'd have probably done it already, but the idea of having to manage so many individual builds is just highly suboptimal. I'd say that you got excellent value for money, and a lot more support for an EOL product than you paid for. Yes, it would have been nice if they had waited until KDE4 was a little more polished before EOLing KDE3, but who would have paid for two dev teams? Yes, but you should have heard the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the non-tech users, it was like being surrounded by 8000 drunken harpies and it lasted almost three months til they finally resigned themselves to xfce. I will not go through that again. -- caveat utilitor ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 04:40:02PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 16:00 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: I had 8 users on kde before 3 was deprecated in 2009. Now I have zero. It was a harrowing time, switching everyone to gnome, finding that is not so hot, finally putting them on xfce. If xfce gets a wild hair and changes my plan is to dumb down the fluxbox or openbox configs I have for my own use, add some scripting and call it a day. So why didn't you just leave the users on KDE3? For the same reason I didn't leave them on windows 98 se. Yes, it technically still works but is far less useful than it was when it was enthusiastically supported by its creators and still considered one of two default choices for DE duty. I'm sorry if this discussion has offended you, Alan. That was certainly not my intent. However, admins with stories like mine are not at all uncommon, and the bottom line is that kde4 lost a lot of users to other DEs. The kde devs clearly bit off more than could chew, but obviously that's water under the bridge now. But to deny it or make excuses now does no service to anyone. Oops, better not do that again, is what we all hope they learned. We all make mistakes, just don't make the same ones repeatedly! :) -- caveat utilitor ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Indi wrote: On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 04:40:02PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 16:00 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: I had 8 users on kde before 3 was deprecated in 2009. Now I have zero. It was a harrowing time, switching everyone to gnome, finding that is not so hot, finally putting them on xfce. If xfce gets a wild hair and changes my plan is to dumb down the fluxbox or openbox configs I have for my own use, add some scripting and call it a day. So why didn't you just leave the users on KDE3? For the same reason I didn't leave them on windows 98 se. Yes, it technically still works but is far less useful than it was when it was enthusiastically supported by its creators and still considered one of two default choices for DE duty. I'm sorry if this discussion has offended you, Alan. That was certainly not my intent. However, admins with stories like mine are not at all uncommon, and the bottom line is that kde4 lost a lot of users to other DEs. The kde devs clearly bit off more than could chew, but obviously that's water under the bridge now. But to deny it or make excuses now does no service to anyone. Oops, better not do that again, is what we all hope they learned. We all make mistakes, just don't make the same ones repeatedly! :) +1 Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 5/12/2011 9:25 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 14:54 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Dale did opine thusly: Neil Bothwick wrote: The pattern I see is that of selecting only changes that failed and implying they are the norm. Why not add other improvements that were so bad, like the switch from floppy disks to hard disks, or CDs to DVDs? Companies try to predict where the market should go so they can lead. No one gets it right all the time, the ones that survive are those that get it right often enough. The ones that are most likely to fail are those that never try to innovate in case someone doesn't like it. The important point is that KDE wanted something better, it's unfortunate that it took so much longer than planned, but it would have taken even longer if they had not tried. I just hope they also learned from their mistakes. Dropping KDE3 support long before KDE4 was ready was a big one. That shouldn't be repeated. They can do any damn thing they want to with their code. They also you owe support for it in exactly the same amount you paid for it. Which is to say nothing. It's not a question of should, it's only a question of Dale would prefer it if parent Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. /parent Of course the KDE3 team had every right to drop KDE3 support whenever they pleased. And we as free consumers had no real recourse other than to stop using KDE and/or deal with it. But it was still a bad decision from a software development standpoint, and one that ideally should not be made again. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say If the KDE4 team expects users to continue to use the software they spend so much of their time making, they shouldn't make that kind of decision again. --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 12/5/2011, at 12:31am, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Wednesday 11 May 2011 22:14:55 Mike Edenfield wrote: The only problem with LC_ALL is that it overrides all of the other LC_* variables. - which is precisely what most ordinary desktop users want. No, I think they want all locale variables to be right. That may be achieved by setting LC_ALL, but you are advised, I believe, to set only LANG. You haven't justified why LC_ALL is better. ... Personally, I have no intention of ever allowing US English to pollute any of my boxes (no offence meant to anyone here), so LC_ALL=en_GB.UTF-8 suits me (so far - until I trip over something!). Could you possibly post the output of `date +%l:%M%P`? In doing so you'd be doing me a favour. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Stroller wrote: `date +%l:%M%P` Here's mine: root@fireball / # date +%l:%M%P 12:19pm root@fireball / # Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thursday 12 May 2011 18:06:27 Stroller wrote: Could you possibly post the output of `date +%l:%M%P`? In doing so you'd be doing me a favour. $ date +%l:%M%P 8:39 That's the wall-clock time (p.m.) in my local time-zone. What Americans call daylight savings time, though how they imagine any time is saved I don't know. Again: :) -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thursday 12 May 2011 18:20:15 Dale wrote: Stroller wrote: `date +%l:%M%P` Here's mine: root@fireball / # date +%l:%M%P 12:19pm root@fireball / # Dale $ date +%l:%M%P 9:23 $ locale LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_NUMERIC=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_TIME=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_MONETARY=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_MESSAGES=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_PAPER=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_NAME=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_ADDRESS=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_ALL=en_GB.UTF-8 -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Apparently, though unproven, at 17:06 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 04:40:02PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 16:00 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: I had 8 users on kde before 3 was deprecated in 2009. Now I have zero. It was a harrowing time, switching everyone to gnome, finding that is not so hot, finally putting them on xfce. If xfce gets a wild hair and changes my plan is to dumb down the fluxbox or openbox configs I have for my own use, add some scripting and call it a day. So why didn't you just leave the users on KDE3? For the same reason I didn't leave them on windows 98 se. Yes, it technically still works but is far less useful than it was when it was enthusiastically supported by its creators and still considered one of two default choices for DE duty. I'm sorry if this discussion has offended you, Alan. That was certainly not my intent. No, you didn't offend me. I usually talk and type like that. However, admins with stories like mine are not at all uncommon, and the bottom line is that kde4 lost a lot of users to other DEs. The kde devs clearly bit off more than could chew, but obviously that's water under the bridge now. But to deny it or make excuses now does no service to anyone. Oops, better not do that again, is what we all hope they learned. We all make mistakes, just don't make the same ones repeatedly! :) Your first three sentences above contain huge sweeping generalities disguised as facts, but all they really are is what Indi thinks. If you are going to make comments like that, you have to back them up with some kind of independant unbiased metrics, otherwise you are talking through a hole in your ass. I have what I think might be an interesting exercise. One of the machines I admin is an enormous ftp server that serves an entire continent. It hosts every major (and many minor) distros, including gentoo and it's distfiles. One day when I'm motivated enough to do it, I might just draw download stats per distro for packages with kde in the name and plot this going back to before KDE-4.0.0 was released. I feel the numbers might prove very interesting. I won't be doing it today though, the motivation is not there (in the same way that the authors of KDE didn't have the motivation to maintain kde3 anymore). -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Apparently, though unproven, at 16:38 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Dale did opine thusly: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 12 May 2011 08:46:32 -0500, Dale wrote: So, you think most of the KDE users were happy to see support for KDE3 being dropped, especially considering KDE4 was much less than stable? For me and a lot of others, it was worthless at first. It was good eye candy but not functional even for the little I do. I didn't switch until 4.3 or 4.4, KDE 3.5 worked fine for me up until then. It probably still works just as well now as part of the Trinity project. Which supports my point. Maintain KDE3 until KDE4 is stable and usable. If it is still working, which I think it is tho some fixes have had to be made, then why couldn't KDE support KDE3 just a little while longer. So here's two killer questions for you: 1. How much money did you pay towards KDE dev salaries overall? 2. How many times does your name appear in KDE Changelogs? While the answer to both is zero you do not get to complain. Here's another killer: Q. What's the difference between KDE devs and Dale? A: KDE devs launched an editor and typed code. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 11:10:03PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 17:06 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 04:40:02PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 16:00 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: I had 8 users on kde before 3 was deprecated in 2009. Now I have zero. It was a harrowing time, switching everyone to gnome, finding that is not so hot, finally putting them on xfce. If xfce gets a wild hair and changes my plan is to dumb down the fluxbox or openbox configs I have for my own use, add some scripting and call it a day. So why didn't you just leave the users on KDE3? For the same reason I didn't leave them on windows 98 se. Yes, it technically still works but is far less useful than it was when it was enthusiastically supported by its creators and still considered one of two default choices for DE duty. I'm sorry if this discussion has offended you, Alan. That was certainly not my intent. No, you didn't offend me. I usually talk and type like that. However, admins with stories like mine are not at all uncommon, and the bottom line is that kde4 lost a lot of users to other DEs. The kde devs clearly bit off more than could chew, but obviously that's water under the bridge now. But to deny it or make excuses now does no service to anyone. Oops, better not do that again, is what we all hope they learned. We all make mistakes, just don't make the same ones repeatedly! :) Your first three sentences above contain huge sweeping generalities disguised as facts, but all they really are is what Indi thinks. If you are going to make comments like that, you have to back them up with some kind of independant unbiased metrics, otherwise you are talking through a hole in your ass. I have what I think might be an interesting exercise. One of the machines I admin is an enormous ftp server that serves an entire continent. It hosts every major (and many minor) distros, including gentoo and it's distfiles. One day when I'm motivated enough to do it, I might just draw download stats per distro for packages with kde in the name and plot this going back to before KDE-4.0.0 was released. I feel the numbers might prove very interesting. I won't be doing it today though, the motivation is not there (in the same way that the authors of KDE didn't have the motivation to maintain kde3 anymore). You might be correct, but I very much doubt it. I will say though that it's almost a certainty the *type* of user who uses kde4 is probably different from those who used kde3. As I mentioned before, IMO the forte of kde3 was making migration to linux easy for windows users. I don't think anyone can say that about kde4 with a straight face. On this list we constantly see pretty advanced users having trouble keeping kde4 running. My own experiments with it were extremely frustrating. -- caveat utilitor ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Apparently, though unproven, at 23:19 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: You might be correct, but I very much doubt it. I will say though that it's almost a certainty the type of user who uses kde4 is probably different from those who used kde3. There you go again, offering opinion disguised as fact. Other than your own (necessarily biased) experience, what do you base this statement on? -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 12/5/2011, at 6:20pm, Dale wrote: Stroller wrote: `date +%l:%M%P` Here's mine: root@fireball / # date +%l:%M%P 12:19pm root@fireball / # And what are your locale settings? Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 16:38 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Dale did opine thusly: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 12 May 2011 08:46:32 -0500, Dale wrote: So, you think most of the KDE users were happy to see support for KDE3 being dropped, especially considering KDE4 was much less than stable? For me and a lot of others, it was worthless at first. It was good eye candy but not functional even for the little I do. I didn't switch until 4.3 or 4.4, KDE 3.5 worked fine for me up until then. It probably still works just as well now as part of the Trinity project. Which supports my point. Maintain KDE3 until KDE4 is stable and usable. If it is still working, which I think it is tho some fixes have had to be made, then why couldn't KDE support KDE3 just a little while longer. So here's two killer questions for you: 1. How much money did you pay towards KDE dev salaries overall? 2. How many times does your name appear in KDE Changelogs? While the answer to both is zero you do not get to complain. Here's another killer: Q. What's the difference between KDE devs and Dale? A: KDE devs launched an editor and typed code. Your questions don't disprove what me and others have posted. As I have said on the KDE mailing list, KDE made a serious mistake dropping KDE3 before KDE4 was ready. I didn't make that decision so it is not my mistake regardless of what is paid or not paid or what effort I have or have not put into it. There is a LOT of things that are beyond my control but it doesn't mean I don't have the right to point out a mistake. I point it out so that hopefully it won't be made again. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 12/5/2011, at 8:41pm, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Thursday 12 May 2011 18:06:27 Stroller wrote: Could you possibly post the output of `date +%l:%M%P`? In doing so you'd be doing me a favour. $ date +%l:%M%P 8:39 That's the wall-clock time (p.m.) in my local time-zone. What Americans call daylight savings time, though how they imagine any time is saved I don't know. From `man date`: %l hour ( 1..12) ... %M minute (00..59) ... %p locale's equivalent of either AM or PM; blank if not known %P like %p, but lower case I'd be curious to compare with the output of `date +%r` on your system, but you probably actually want to set: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 LC_TIME=POSIX in order to get the correct results. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 11:30:02PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 16:38 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Dale did opine thusly: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 12 May 2011 08:46:32 -0500, Dale wrote: So, you think most of the KDE users were happy to see support for KDE3 being dropped, especially considering KDE4 was much less than stable? For me and a lot of others, it was worthless at first. It was good eye candy but not functional even for the little I do. I didn't switch until 4.3 or 4.4, KDE 3.5 worked fine for me up until then. It probably still works just as well now as part of the Trinity project. Which supports my point. Maintain KDE3 until KDE4 is stable and usable. If it is still working, which I think it is tho some fixes have had to be made, then why couldn't KDE support KDE3 just a little while longer. So here's two killer questions for you: 1. How much money did you pay towards KDE dev salaries overall? 2. How many times does your name appear in KDE Changelogs? While the answer to both is zero you do not get to complain. Here's another killer: Q. What's the difference between KDE devs and Dale? A: KDE devs launched an editor and typed code. That's called grandstanding, where I come from. I certainly agree that the devs' rights trump the users' rights in FOSS, and that's as it should be. It is however a fact of life that while you have no ethical obligation to your users beyond telling the truth and not being evil, some users will choose not to use your software if the devs' attitude is perceived as dismissive or insensitive toward the concerns of their users. That's just human nature. You don't have to like it or agree with it but in the end you are limited by it. :) -- caveat utilitor ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 11:50:02PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 23:19 on Thursday 12 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: You might be correct, but I very much doubt it. I will say though that it's almost a certainty the type of user who uses kde4 is probably different from those who used kde3. There you go again, offering opinion disguised as fact. Other than your own (necessarily biased) experience, what do you base this statement on? Yes yes yes, I am merely offering my opinion. No scientific peer-reviewd paper will be published, so by all means be combative and demand I agree I am wrong. Boy, you will not win that one. I expressed my opinion. You dismiss it. It's over now. Try to be happy. :) -- caveat utilitor ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:30:01AM +0200, walt wrote: On 05/12/2011 07:00 AM, Indi wrote: ...It was a harrowing time, switching everyone to gnome, finding that is not so hot... Just curious: what sort of complaints did you get about gnome? Oh to be honest I think most of the complaints were that it wasn't kde and it was the first thing I put them on. Since they got xfce after that I think they simply learned to lower their expectations. Probably if I'd put them on xfce first they'd be attached to using gnome now. -- caveat utilitor ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Stroller wrote: On 12/5/2011, at 6:20pm, Dale wrote: Stroller wrote: `date +%l:%M%P` Here's mine: root@fireball / # date +%l:%M%P 12:19pm root@fireball / # And what are your locale settings? Stroller. root@fireball / # locale LANG=en_US.UTF8 LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF8 LC_NUMERIC=en_US.UTF8 LC_TIME=en_US.UTF8 LC_COLLATE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MONETARY=en_US.UTF8 LC_MESSAGES=en_US.UTF8 LC_PAPER=en_US.UTF8 LC_NAME=en_US.UTF8 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.UTF8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.UTF8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.UTF8 LC_ALL=en_US.UTF8 root@fireball / # locale -a C en_US en_US.iso88591 en_US.utf8 POSIX root@fireball / # That what you was needing? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 2011-05-12 23:44, Dale wrote: Your questions don't disprove what me and others have posted. As I have I think Alans point is that while the KDE developers (volunteers, or paid for) have certain goals which may or may not be tangential to yours (clearly, in the case of KDE3 vs KDE4 they are not). So unless you pay someone to have your specific requirements satisfied you don't get to complain. The volunteers have an itch to scratch, i.e. they want some certain functionality which they care about and are, probably, not interested in anything else. Paid for developers are (probably/most likely) being told what to work on. And developer resources are, probably, scarce so... If you (and others) wish KDE3 to be supported then you either need to: 1. Support/maintain KDE3 yourselves. 2. Pay someone to support/maintain KDE3. That's the way it works, which is also somewhat valid for commercial software, but you usually don't get the option of paying the producer to maintain your specific version unless you are a _big_ customer (with lots of money), but with open source you at least have the option of scratching an itch yourself or paying someone to do the work for you (and even pool resources with people who share the same interests). mistake. I point it out so that hopefully it won't be made again. Of course, anyone can have an opinion! :-D Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Hi, Maybe, a little OT. Could anybody tell me, how to make gentoo baselayout-2 system to be completely unicode utf-8? Which config files I should modify? Thank You! -- mv
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Marius Vaitiekunas wrote: Hi, Maybe, a little OT. Could anybody tell me, how to make gentoo baselayout-2 system to be completely unicode utf-8? Which config files I should modify? Thank You! This is how I did mine. root@fireball / # cat /etc/make.conf | grep utf LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 root@fireball / # I think that is all I did. Then again, it seems I had to run some command but can't recall it. That help? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Marius Vaitiekunas wrote: Hi, Maybe, a little OT. Could anybody tell me, how to make gentoo baselayout-2 system to be completely unicode utf-8? Which config files I should modify? Thank You! This is how I did mine. root@fireball / # cat /etc/make.conf | grep utf LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 root@fireball / # I think that is all I did. Then again, it seems I had to run some command but can't recall it. That help? Dale :-) :-) Thank you both for answers. I have some problems with GD library and unicode. As I can see from your posts nothing changed in baselayout-2. There is some more info, if it is not outdated: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/utf-8.xml
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
110511 Marius Vaitiekunas wrote: Could anybody tell me, how to make gentoo baselayout-2 system to be completely unicode utf-8? Which config files I should modify? In ~/.bashrc/root/.bashrc I have LANG=en_US.UTF-8 Amend for your local language, if you wish. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto TRANSIT`-O--O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Nikos Chantziaras wrote: On 05/11/2011 03:33 PM, Dale wrote: Marius Vaitiekunas wrote: Hi, Maybe, a little OT. Could anybody tell me, how to make gentoo baselayout-2 system to be completely unicode utf-8? Which config files I should modify? Thank You! This is how I did mine. root@fireball / # cat /etc/make.conf | grep utf LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 root@fireball / # I think that is all I did. Two issues. First, LC_ALL does not belong in make.conf. It belongs in /etc/env.d/02locale. Second, en_US.utf8 is not correct. It's en_US.UTF-8. :-) Funny that it seems to work. I don't have that file: root@fireball / # cat /etc/env.d/02locale cat: /etc/env.d/02locale: No such file or directory root@fireball / # But I do have this one: root@fireball / # cat /etc/locale.gen # /etc/locale.gen: list all of the locales you want to have on your system # # The format of each line: # locale charmap # # Where locale is a locale located in /usr/share/i18n/locales/ and # where charmap is a charmap located in /usr/share/i18n/charmaps/. # # All blank lines and lines starting with # are ignored. # # For the default list of supported combinations, see the file: # /usr/share/i18n/SUPPORTED # # Whenever glibc is emerged, the locales listed here will be automatically # rebuilt for you. After updating this file, you can simply run `locale-gen` # yourself instead of re-emerging glibc. en_US ISO-8859-1 en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8 #ja_JP.EUC-JP EUC-JP #ja_JP.UTF-8 UTF-8 #ja_JP EUC-JP #en_HK ISO-8859-1 #en_PH ISO-8859-1 #de_DE ISO-8859-1 #de_DE@euro ISO-8859-15 #es_MX ISO-8859-1 #fa_IR UTF-8 #fr_FR ISO-8859-1 #fr_FR@euro ISO-8859-15 #it_IT ISO-8859-1 root@fireball / # I followed a guide when I did mine which is why I don't recall most of it. On this rig, it wasn't to long ago. My old rig has even older config files. That install is about 6 pr 7 years old if I recall correctly. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Nikos Chantziaras wrote: On 05/11/2011 02:50 AM, Dale wrote: [...] What do you know, I upgraded and it worked. Now if I can just get rid of this Nepomuk thingy that pops up a bit after I login to KDE. You disable that in System Settings. There's an icon for it there. Or, you build KDE with -semantic-desktop in your make.conf, which builds KDE without it. This is odd. I thought I turned that off before but figured maybe a config update turned it back on. I just checked, it is turned off. That thing just won't die. lol I do have the USE flag enabled. I read somewhere that turning the flag off gets rid of a lot of stuff, some that I use on occasion. Has that changed? We all know the USE flag descriptions don't always shed much light on the real use of it. ;-) Maybe it will give up one day and just go away. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:33:02 +0300, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: The second file is /etc/locale.gen. On my system: en_US ISO-8859-1 en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8 I don't know why I have the first line there. I guess it's a fallback. The second line must be the same as what you used in env.d/02locale, with UTF-8 appended to it. After you change that file, you must rebuild sys-libs/glibc. You don't need to rebuild glibc, just run locale-gen. -- Neil Bothwick When you finally buy enough memory, you will not have enough disk space. -- Murphy's Computer Laws n\xB03 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Apparently, though unproven, at 15:45 on Wednesday 11 May 2011, Dale did opine thusly: Nikos Chantziaras wrote: On 05/11/2011 02:50 AM, Dale wrote: [...] What do you know, I upgraded and it worked. Now if I can just get rid of this Nepomuk thingy that pops up a bit after I login to KDE. You disable that in System Settings. There's an icon for it there. Or, you build KDE with -semantic-desktop in your make.conf, which builds KDE without it. This is odd. I thought I turned that off before but figured maybe a config update turned it back on. I just checked, it is turned off. That thing just won't die. lol I do have the USE flag enabled. I read somewhere that turning the flag off gets rid of a lot of stuff, some that I use on occasion. Has that changed? We all know the USE flag descriptions don't always shed much light on the real use of it. ;-) Maybe it will give up one day and just go away. You can't disable USE=semantic-desktop Parts of KDE don't (or soon won't) build at all without the configure options it provides. In other words, it's a gentoo thing and completely unsupported by KDE. Get used to having it enabled. It uses hardly any cpu at all, regardless of what the naysayers say. But that popup should not be happening, mine disappeared two revisions ago. The solution is in kde's bugzilla somewhere, you will have to search for it. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 5/11/2011 9:40 AM, Dale wrote: Nikos Chantziaras wrote: On 05/11/2011 03:33 PM, Dale wrote: root@fireball / # cat /etc/make.conf | grep utf LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 root@fireball / # Putting your LC_* values in make.conf means they're only going to apply when you are building things, and not in everyday use. If it's working, you either haven't had to do anything where UTF-8 and ISO-8859-1 would produce different results, or you have LC_* or LANG defined somewhere else :) Two issues. First, LC_ALL does not belong in make.conf. It belongs in /etc/env.d/02locale. Second, en_US.utf8 is not correct. It's en_US.UTF-8. :-) For whatever reason, the generated locale names (as visible by locale(1) for example) get this wrong, which is why either variation selects the correct locale definition: kutulu@basement ~ $ locale -a C en_US.utf8 POSIX It's particularly odd, since the charmap file is correctly named UTF-8 and you need to pass -f UTF-8 to localedef to generate them. :\ Funny that it seems to work. I don't have that file: root@fireball / # cat /etc/env.d/02locale cat: /etc/env.d/02locale: No such file or directory root@fireball / # You need to create the /etc/env.d/02locale file yourself; the name is just the generally accepted one most systems use. But I do have this one: root@fireball / # cat /etc/locale.gen [...] en_US ISO-8859-1 en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8 This file is only used when you run locale-gen and/or rebuild glibc (which, in turn, runs locale-gen). It dictates whichs locales get built and installed, but not which one of those is used by default. I followed a guide when I did mine which is why I don't recall most of it. On this rig, it wasn't to long ago. My old rig has even older config files. That install is about 6 pr 7 years old if I recall correctly. The guide you probably should be following is: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/utf-8.xml --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 04:50:02PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: It uses hardly any cpu at all, regardless of what the naysayers say. Well, add me to the naysayers list then, because my experience directly contradicts that statement. Much happier with fluxbox, completely finished fooling with the kde. I still don't understand why the kde folks went from something that worked extremely well to their current state. Baffling. -- caveat utilitor
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Nikos Chantziaras wrote: On 05/11/2011 04:40 PM, Dale wrote: Funny that it seems to work. I don't have that file: root@fireball / # cat /etc/env.d/02locale cat: /etc/env.d/02locale: No such file or directory root@fireball / # Maybe the 02 prefix is random. Try: grep LC_ALL /etc/env.d/* But fact it, whatever you put in /etc/make.conf is for portage, and portage only. If you define LC_ALL in make.conf, then the only software that will use that definition is portage itself (like the emerge tool.) That was quick: root@fireball / # grep LC_ALL /etc/env.d/* root@fireball / # Guess that is not in env.d anywhere. :/ I know that is what make.conf is for but when I did it, I followed a guide, that was one of the places it said to put it. It may have changed but I didn't put it there just because I was froggy. Something told me to put it there. Now to figure out the new way. I think Mike posted a link to a guide that I need to check out. :-) Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Apparently, though unproven, at 17:06 on Wednesday 11 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 04:50:02PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: It uses hardly any cpu at all, regardless of what the naysayers say. Well, add me to the naysayers list then, because my experience directly contradicts that statement. Much happier with fluxbox, completely finished fooling with the kde. semantic desktop equates to nepomuk If you do something really thick with the backend (virtuoso currently) it will go beserk. Full strigi indexing will keep your disk busy all day - what else could it do if you want a full text indexed search of 300GB of file in ~ like many users have these days? I still don't understand why the kde folks went from something that worked extremely well to their current state. Baffling. KDE3 and KDE4 are not the same thing. KDE4 is not the next version of KDE3. You must consider KDE4 to be a completely new product, unrelated to KDE3 in any meaningful way except that many KDE4 devs used to work on a different project called KDE3. Like all software, KDE4 is not for everyone - like you for example. But there's nothing stopping you from maintaining KDE3 yourself. Why did the devs switch? Market pressures really. If you don't spot emerging trends and follow them early, you run the risk of becoming redundant very quickly. Ask Microsoft, they know all about this. They went from the undisputed behemoth market leader to staring the very real threat of total obsolescence in three very short years. KDE devs decided to take the risk and make the jump ahead of the curve. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 06:00:05PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 17:06 on Wednesday 11 May 2011, Indi did opine thusly: I still don't understand why the kde folks went from something that worked extremely well to their current state. Baffling. Why did the devs switch? Market pressures really. If you don't spot emerging trends and follow them early, you run the risk of becoming redundant very quickly. Ask Microsoft, they know all about this. They went from the undisputed behemoth market leader to staring the very real threat of total obsolescence in three very short years. KDE devs decided to take the risk and make the jump ahead of the curve. So the answer is prophylactic self-destruction? ***ducks*** I kid, forgive me... :) -- caveat utilitor ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 03:33:02PM +0300, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: On 05/11/2011 03:16 PM, Marius Vaitiekunas wrote: /etc/env.d/02locale. Here, it looks like this: LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 LANG=en_US.UTF-8 It is not recommended that you set LC_ALL in startup files at all, just lang. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/guide-localization.xml Thanks, William pgpz3sHn4PRAR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
- Original Message From: Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com I still don't understand why the kde folks went from something that worked extremely well to their current state. Baffling. KDE3 and KDE4 are not the same thing. KDE4 is not the next version of KDE3. You must consider KDE4 to be a completely new product, unrelated to KDE3 in any meaningful way except that many KDE4 devs used to work on a different project called KDE3. Like all software, KDE4 is not for everyone - like you for example. But there's nothing stopping you from maintaining KDE3 yourself. Why did the devs switch? Market pressures really. If you don't spot emerging trends and follow them early, you run the risk of becoming redundant very quickly. Ask Microsoft, they know all about this. They went from the undisputed behemoth market leader to staring the very real threat of total obsolescence in three very short years. KDE devs decided to take the risk and make the jump ahead of the curve. Very much agreed. Ever wonder why what Apple and Microsoft are doing seems to simply be copying what KDE did with KDE4? Yeah - KDE is on the forefront of the desktop right now, paving the path for how its going to be used by essentially everyone as a result. Ben
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Nikos Chantziaras wrote: On 05/11/2011 06:53 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: On 05/11/2011 06:42 PM, Dale wrote: That was quick: root@fireball / # grep LC_ALL /etc/env.d/* root@fireball / # Guess that is not in env.d anywhere. :/ Then I guess you can create it on your own. See: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/guide-localization.xml#doc_chap3 Heh, according to the guide I linked to, setting LC_ALL is a bad idea :-D So I guess the grep should have been: grep LANG /etc/env.d/* And the contents of 02locale (or something else in case the grep above finds some other *locale file) should be: LANG=en_US.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=C I think something has changed. This is Gentoo after all. Things are always being changed, usually for the better. This is funny tho: root@fireball / # grep LANG /etc/env.d/* root@fireball / # Then I get this: root@fireball / # locale -a C POSIX en_US en_US.iso88591 en_US.utf8 root@fireball / # locale LANG= LC_CTYPE=POSIX LC_NUMERIC=POSIX LC_TIME=POSIX LC_COLLATE=POSIX LC_MONETARY=POSIX LC_MESSAGES=POSIX LC_PAPER=POSIX LC_NAME=POSIX LC_ADDRESS=POSIX LC_TELEPHONE=POSIX LC_MEASUREMENT=POSIX LC_IDENTIFICATION=POSIX LC_ALL= root@fireball / # I'm trying to work through the guides but it's difficult to undo something then redo it. me thinking Be careful I may sling a rod or something. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 5/11/2011 12:54 PM, Dale wrote: root@fireball / # locale -a C POSIX en_US en_US.iso88591 en_US.utf8 So you have three locales installed (C and POSIX are internal and always present) that are the same language and region with different character sets. You probably don't need to do this anymore, since most every modern application can handle UTF-8 character data and, even if it can't, UTF-8 data looks identical to US-ASCII data for most English language text. root@fireball / # locale LANG= LC_CTYPE=POSIX LC_NUMERIC=POSIX LC_TIME=POSIX LC_COLLATE=POSIX LC_MONETARY=POSIX LC_MESSAGES=POSIX LC_PAPER=POSIX LC_NAME=POSIX LC_ADDRESS=POSIX LC_TELEPHONE=POSIX LC_MEASUREMENT=POSIX LC_IDENTIFICATION=POSIX LC_ALL= root@fireball / # This means that your UTF-8 setup is clearly *not* working :) Your locale is not being set anywhere, it's using the glibc default of POSIX. POSIX is approximately equal to en_US as far as date/time, sorting, etc. but lacks most of the numeric formatting (no currency symbol, no thousands separator, etc). It's also using the default US-ASCII character set. --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 5/11/2011 12:02 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
On 05/11/2011 06:53 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
On 05/11/2011 06:42 PM, Dale wrote:
That was quick:
root@fireball / # grep LC_ALL /etc/env.d/*
root@fireball / #
Guess that is not in env.d anywhere. :/
Then I guess you can create it on your own. See:
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/guide-localization.xml#doc_chap3
Heh, according to the guide I linked to, setting LC_ALL is a bad idea
:-D So I guess the grep should have been:
The only problem with LC_ALL is that it overrides all of the other LC_*
variables. When looking for locale information for a given category, the
order is:
LC_ALL - LC_{COLLATE|CTYPE|MESSAGES|TIME|NUMERIC|MONETARY} - LANG
(glibc adds a bunch of other LC_* variables from a POSIX draft that
never got formalized.)
Setting just LANG= and setting just LC_ALL= have the same ultimate
result: every localization category uses the same locale. The difference
is that setting LC_ALL means you can't turn around and redefine, say,
just LC_TIME to use some other locale's format.
--Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
Mike Edenfield wrote: This means that your UTF-8 setup is clearly *not* working :) Your locale is not being set anywhere, it's using the glibc default of POSIX. POSIX is approximately equal to en_US as far as date/time, sorting, etc. but lacks most of the numeric formatting (no currency symbol, no thousands separator, etc). It's also using the default US-ASCII character set. --Mike Does this look more better? root@fireball / # locale LANG=en_US.UTF8 LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF8 LC_NUMERIC=en_US.UTF8 LC_TIME=en_US.UTF8 LC_COLLATE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MONETARY=en_US.UTF8 LC_MESSAGES=en_US.UTF8 LC_PAPER=en_US.UTF8 LC_NAME=en_US.UTF8 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.UTF8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.UTF8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.UTF8 LC_ALL= root@fireball / # locale -a C en_US en_US.iso88591 en_US.utf8 POSIX root@fireball / # LC_PAPER, is that like paper in my printer? What the heck does it want my phone number, address and other stuff for? Some of that I get but some is just plain nosy. O_O Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Wednesday 11 May 2011 22:14:55 Mike Edenfield wrote: The only problem with LC_ALL is that it overrides all of the other LC_* variables. - which is precisely what most ordinary desktop users want. In such a case it's a useful shorthand. Personally, I have no intention of ever allowing US English to pollute any of my boxes (no offence meant to anyone here), so LC_ALL=en_GB.UTF-8 suits me (so far - until I trip over something!). Setting just LANG= and setting just LC_ALL= have the same ultimate result: every localization category uses the same locale. I knew a manager some years ago* who tried hard to persuade his bosses that he could be in two places at once - he even had two fish-huts! He was usually to be found in the same time-zone though, for all that. The difference is that setting LC_ALL means you can't turn around and redefine, say, just LC_TIME to use some other locale's format. This isn't going to be the majority case though, is it? I'm not talking about globe-trotting laptops here; just your ordinary desktop box. You can tell from my tone, I hope, that I'm only half-serious, but still I can't see why the simple approach should be frowned on so severely. What practical benefit do I lose by setting LC_ALL once and for all? This machine has been in the same place all its life, and I'm confident that won't change. The same applies to my other machines. I say it's time for document writers to recognise two cases explicitly: static machines and mobile ones. * He worked 24 hours/day for a mainframe system integrator near Minneapolis. That didn't stop it going down the pan when its marketing department failed to see the direction of the prevailing wind in its most important contract ever. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 05:45:07PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote KDE devs decided to take the risk and make the jump ahead of the curve. Coca Cola went from Coke Classic to New Coke; at least they had the guts to admit that it was a bad idea, and reverse it. IBM walked away from their market leading AT. Rather than put a 386 cpu on the motherboard, they went with the PS/2 design, which bombed. Micropro *OWNED* word-processing with a DOS-port of their cpm-based Wordstar product. People were begging and pleading with them to patch it to recognize subdirectories. Instead, Micropro dropped Wordstar, and came up with a user friendly menu-driven abortion called Wordstar 2000. That was the end. Do you see a pattern here? -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 5/11/2011 6:51 PM, Dale wrote: Does this look more better? root@fireball / # locale LC_PAPER=en_US.UTF8 LC_NAME=en_US.UTF8 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.UTF8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.UTF8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.UTF8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.UTF8 LC_PAPER, is that like paper in my printer? What the heck does it want my phone number, address and other stuff for? Some of that I get but some is just plain nosy. O_O These are all proposed, but ultimately rejected, POSIX extensions to hold other standard, region-specific settings. glibc grabbed onto them when the latest POSIX was still in draft status and implemented them. LC_PAPER is one of a few places that holds the default paper sizes (I think Debian has an /etc/papersize or some such). It's kinda silly, since en_US isn't a paper size, but roughly speaking, en_US = 8.5x11 letter and everything else = A4. The others are for tracking: proper name format (e.g. family name first or last); postal address format; telephone number format (local, international, etc); units of measurement (imperial vs. metric); and the standards that govern the rest of the formats. Support for them is pretty sketchy and you can probably safely ignore them :) --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On 5/11/2011 7:31 PM, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Wednesday 11 May 2011 22:14:55 Mike Edenfield wrote: The only problem with LC_ALL is that it overrides all of the other LC_* variables. - which is precisely what most ordinary desktop users want. In such a case it's a useful shorthand. Personally, I have no intention of ever allowing US English to pollute any of my boxes (no offence meant to anyone here), so LC_ALL=en_GB.UTF-8 suits me (so far - until I trip over something!). That was actually my point. I set LC_ALL in 02locale on my workstations/laptops, and so far I haven't had any need to change it. IMO, LC_ALL makes much more sense than LANG for the catch-all LC_* variable name so that's what I use. On a multi-user box, I would probably make a different choice. --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How's the openrc update going for everyone?
On May 11, 2011 4:38 PM, walt w41...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/11/2011 03:10 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 11 May 2011 04:55:46 -0500, Dale wrote: I'll leave it like it is I guess. I like all the little green OK's that scroll up anyway. Reassuring, aren't they? I'd like a similar system for checking my marriage. +1 for the marriage checker. That would save me some headaches big time. James Wall
