Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Mike Nelson wrote: There is no excuse. Social workers and other euphorian types can make all the excuses for people they want to, but the fact remains,it's stupid, wrong, and disgusting. WM: An observation, (i.e. 'I've noticed people litter) connected with a reason of how this observation might be triggered (i.e. 'because...) is assumed to be an excuse. It's no excuse whatsoever, just an observation. The one I made about littering honked off several people who disagreed with the observation. Even moreso than Mike Nelson, my household is on litter duty 24/7/365. We catch the Lake St. gonzo litter bugs. We keep our front yard pickup can on the front porch. (Such a today, Euro style sort of objet, donchano). What really grinds my grits are the jerkwaters who throw whiskey bottles, beer bottles and pop cans and bottles over the 5' fence into my yard from Lake St. and Oakland. Yes, it is stupid and disgusting. It was also disgusting when the gang bangers sh** in our recycling box, when the hooker found the mattress and moved in behind our trash cans to set up business. All of us who live in this general area (So. Phillips, Central, Powderhorn, Corcoran) have worked our fannies off to change this stuff for a very long time. Another observation: gangbangers throw litter to lead a trail through the streets to themselves. Any corner where street dealers want to work, they nest in. Litter, self created, along with urine, condoms, chicken bones, pizzas, etc. are their nest building materials. It's a form of urban guerilla warfare. Their kith and kin might have got the idea from the interstate highway system which cut down whole neighborhoods for miles. Because they'd been long redlined, their homes were in a state of disrepair, therefore cheap. Planned obsolescence. I think it's a nasty, belligerent habit, passive aggressive may be the term--I also remember having that attitude and having to change my whole outlook and not be a litter bug. It is, however, a part of the cycle of despair and acknowledging it could be helpful in changing our attitudes about how crucial and immediate it is to put a stick in the cycle and what kind of stick will be best suited to the job. The Lincoln Continental Litterers are a different bunch altogether. WizardMarks, Central Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
This is quite an observation! On Friday, April 16, 2004, at 02:51 PM, WizardMarks wrote: All of us who live in this general area (So. Phillips, Central, Powderhorn, Corcoran) have worked our fannies off to change this stuff for a very long time. Another observation: gangbangers throw litter to lead a trail through the streets to themselves. Any corner where street dealers want to work, they nest in. Litter, self created, along with urine, condoms, chicken bones, pizzas, etc. are their nest building materials. It's a form of urban guerilla warfare. Except, I'd spell that gorilla. We often feel that we are so distant from our close cousins in the ape world that we can't possibly have behavioral crossovers. But I think Wizard is onto something with the nest building. When archeologists dig up old living areas, invariably there are refuse pits. So neatness counted even back then. Yet we know from living cultures (stilt houses for example) that refuse and dung can also be used to ward off predators. So there is that nest building aspect. I guess the question is, what is the behavior we are looking at? It isn't helpful to me to say people are responsible and they need to fall in line. On the one hand small communities of humans always seem to desire order and compliance so the community can live together harmoniously. That's what we have to work on in our neighborhoods. But when community is fractured and neighborhoods lack cohesion and identity the junk yard dogs move in with their nest building. Thanks Wiz, for the inspired insight. Best, Laura Laura Waterman Wittstock MIGIZI Communications, Inc. 3123 East Lake Street Minneapolis, MN 55406 612.721.6631 ext 219 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.migizi.org REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
There is no excuse. Social workers and other euphorian types can make all the excuses for people they want to, but the fact remains,it's stupid, wrong, and disgusting. I just pick the stuff up, and if I'm in a snotty mood, say thank you as I am picking it up behind the person. If I'm on my bike and someone tosses something out a car window, I pick it up and when they are sitting at the next stoplight I hand it to them and say excuse me, I think you dropped this. Reactions range from embarassement and apologies to having the object thrown at me. Last fall I had a particularly encouraging encounter with some litterbugs. I was out in my back yard and heard someone tipping over garbage cans in the alley. I went out there, and one kid was deep into a can tossing things left and right over his shoulders into the alley. When I asked him just what the hell do you think you're doing? he said It wasn't me. I just said bullsh%$*t, and proceeded to pick the stuff up and put garbage cans back in place, It only took about two minutes until his friends turned to, and helped me clean up the entire length of the alley. I didn't even ask them to, they just followed my lead. Good kids, just needed a little nudge.I thanked them, we parted ways, and it hasn't happened since. Mike Nelson Central REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
On Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 02:20 PM, WizardMarks wrote: For the very poor, totally dissed population, refusing to comply is their only power--the power to say no to social constraints. It's not poor upbringing so much as bitterness, bone deep fatigue, and an exercise of the only power available to them. Generally I agree with Wizard but I think a little more reference is needed on this observation. I do think people litter as a refusal to comply with perceived authority. However, those that choose this demonstration of defiance are well represented in the middle classes. My experience with litterers who come and go from the corner grocery store and who indulge in university student excesses are in the main from the middle class. My explanation is that our society very broadly has given signals of its acceptance of individuality and satisfying immediate urges. This propensity has gotten us into trouble from time to time but generally speaking, Americans highly value individual freedoms and this occurs across the economic spectrum. Obedience, to the extent that it is connected to things we may feel interfere with our personal freedom, does get rejected. I think littering fits into our broad acceptance of personal freedom and impulse behavior. So rich and poor alike act impulsively while observing if acceptance occurs in their immediate environments (family, neighborhood, peers). Just this morning a very young man faced me across the intersection near Marcy School, awaiting a red light to change. I was going straight, he was turning left, but before the light changed he began moving his front wheels in the direction of his intent. He was talking on a cell phone and looking forward into blank middle space. So when the light changed, I just sat there as he hit the gas and screeched into a left turn. I did make eye contact to try to let him know that he took an unnecessary chance, but no one was at home. Was that the same as tossing bottles? Yes, I would say so. It is real tough for me to say teachers have to change this, parents are responsible, television is responsible, or any other one thing. An education effort would help a lot, but it needs to be broad based. The whole city of Minneapolis would need to take on littering as a major campaign and work on it. We would have to do this over a period of time so the Minneapolis value of clean streets is broadly accepted. I'm all for trying, in any case. Best, Laura Wittstock Southeast Minneapolis Laura Waterman Wittstock MIGIZI Communications, Inc. 3123 East Lake Street Minneapolis, MN 55406 612.721.6631 ext 219 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.migizi.org REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Just left the house of a very dear friend and neighbor of mine. She was one of the driving forces behind getting (and keeping) the jordan garden. She's been a resident in jordan for roughly 19 years now and ALWAYS gives more of herself to the community than any other 10 people I know. More often than not, she's got 1/2 dozen kids in her backyard after school (jordan doesn't have a real park). She's a realtor, and earlier this afternoon, she was attempting to show a house at the corner of 26th av n irving av north. She's always working very hard to get more solid citizens to buy into our community. She's 50 years-old and stand 5'1 tall. Apparently, our local drug dealers (on 26th sv n) didn't like the fact that she called 911 on them and beat the hell out of her. Physically, she'll be fine after the broken bone heals and the swelling goes down in her face. Mentally, I'm not too sure. Whereas I drive this neighborhood (for work) continually, I recognized the description of the individual as she gave it to me. This guy better pray to god that the cops either apprehend him, or he moves out of the neighborhood, because I WILL find him. My wife and I will both start the process for purchasing hand guns AND applying for conceal/carry permits this week. I am TIRED of living in a situation where the system is so broke and unresponsive to the needs of the ones it should be serving that it makes you fearfull (for your life) to rightfully confront inappropriate behaviour in your own neighborhood. Enough is enough. Dennis Plante Jordan _ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Multiple plans available. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-uspage=hotmail/es2ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Jeff Rosenberg wrote: Mr. Searles wrote: Excuses, excuses, excuses. There is no sense of personal responsibility. Minneapolis will continue to degrade if this is this prevailing attitude. Since when is trying to put a finger on the problem an excuse? It's only an excuse if we say well, it's povery, we can't do anything. Otherwise, it's trying to get to the root of the problem in order to help it. For myself, preparing for life as a city planner, this kind of discussion can help me prepare for a lifetime of fighting against this. I submit that your attitude is much more problemati. You treat this as a Minneapolis problem that you want no part of, rather than a societal problem which you'd like to discuss remedies for. The attitude of saying well, I don't live there, screw 'em translates into people driving through our city and tossing things out car windows because it doesn't affect them. Doubtless, these people will then complain that the city is dirty when they come to go to the Orpheum. My Response: Wow, and my wife sometimes accuses me of putting words in her mouth. I have nothing on Jeff Rosenberg in this category. My reason for mentioning Minneapolis was an effort to keep it Minneapolis specific and because I felt that another contributor would rather blame littering on societal issues rather than the perpetrators (who probably are residents of Minneapolis and not those stupid, evil people from outside your city limits). You want me to suggest a remedy? Here's one: don't tolerate it. Know what your kids and your neighbor's kids are doing. Get together with your neighbors and pick up your streets. I pick garbage up along my road all the time. Yes, we have litterers out here, too, and if you notice I am not blaming the residents of Minneapolis who travel though the countryside on their way to Grandma's Easter dinner. People litter because they neither care about, nor respect anyone else. There's nothing complex about it. Tom Searles Waconia, Twp. REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Tom Searles wrote: People litter because they neither care about, nor respect anyone else. There's nothing complex about it. WM: People littler because they neither care about, nor respect themselves. What's complex is figuring out how to make a change. WizardMarks, Central Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Brian Fesler wrote: Litter is sort of a small issue compared to acts of violence, theft, property damage etc. But it is a good start. Tackling that is probably good practice for taking on the larger issues and really cleaning up our town. I agree with both of your points, Brian -- it is a smaller issue, and it is one that is probably easier to take on. I would imagine that many of us here have heard the concept of broken windows, which says that environmental disarry leads to increased crime. As the streetscape deteriorates, people move out, they withdraw from the community, they stop walking along streets. This decrease of eyes on the street makes it much safer for crime to increase, and it becomes a cycle. I'm certainly not saying it's a panacea, but I can't help but wonder if being vigilant about litter would increase everyone's pride in the neighborhood. In my mind, it's *LITTER* that makes people feel like they can litter! If the street's already full of it, what's a little more? With regards to Michael Hohmann's comments, it certainly is a societal problem. And it's not just teachers and parents -- it's everyone in society who sends forth the message of well, it's not my problem. Someone will clean it up. And, of course, poverty and a feeling of futility that comes along with it add to that. Where does fixing this start? I think with teachers is a great idea. Mr. Searles wrote: Excuses, excuses, excuses. There is no sense of personal responsibility. Minneapolis will continue to degrade if this is this prevailing attitude. Since when is trying to put a finger on the problem an excuse? It's only an excuse if we say well, it's povery, we can't do anything. Otherwise, it's trying to get to the root of the problem in order to help it. For myself, preparing for life as a city planner, this kind of discussion can help me prepare for a lifetime of fighting against this. I submit that your attitude is much more problemati. You treat this as a Minneapolis problem that you want no part of, rather than a societal problem which you'd like to discuss remedies for. The attitude of saying well, I don't live there, screw 'em translates into people driving through our city and tossing things out car windows because it doesn't affect them. Doubtless, these people will then complain that the city is dirty when they come to go to the Orpheum. --Jeff Rosenberg Cedar/Riverside . . . picking up trash as he goes. REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Jeff Rosenberg writes: The big question to me is, how do we make people proud of our city? I'm proud to live here, and I want to do everything I can to make it better. ...What would make these people care for their environment. An example: Some time ago, way back when the buses were running, I was sitting outside Rainbow Foods waiting for a bus. So were a few students who had just come from Target. One of them had a CD, which she unwrapped, throwing the wrapper on the ground in front of her. I might add that there was a garbage can on THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BUS SHELTER! I told her that she should throw it out. She responded: 'Yeah, probably. But I'm too lazy.' I can't understand where this complete lack of repect comes from. Even if she is just a temporary resident of the city, I can't see it. BF: I think there are more of us who care about the city and are proud of it than those who mess it up. I've asked people to pick up litter before, and the response has been shock. Probably just shock that I'm even talking to them, let alone asking them to do something that they knew they ought to do anyway. I think more of us who care ought to be willing to experience that shock and just go ahead and ask people to clean up, be respectful of others, etc. We don't have to be the effect of every old litterbug around. Litter is sort of a small issue compared to acts of violence, theft, property damage etc. But it is a good start. Tackling that is probably good practice for taking on the larger issues and really cleaning up our town. Brian Fesler Keewaydin REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Tossing bottles, cans, wrappings and other trash on the street and sidewalk is, I believe, a sign of poor upbringing and poor education. It's a reflection on parents, teachers and society-- where 'being a slob' is too readily tolerated. It's the 'me' generation, with their 'get outta my face' attitude making a statement. By their actions, they are disrespecting themselves and the public environment. What their actions are really saying is, 'look at me, I'm a fool and I don't care.' Well, they got that one right! Michael Hohmann Linden Hills REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Teachers? You're blaming teachers for kids being slobs? Is that part of the curriculum in the Minneapolis School District? You should have stopped at 'poor upbringing'. Blame the parents unless the children are very young. Put the responsibility where it belongs and you might be able to solve some problems. Tom Searles Waconia, Twp. Husband of a teacher who keeps her classroom under control. - Original Message - From: Michael Hohmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jeff Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 8:52 AM Subject: RE: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass Tossing bottles, cans, wrappings and other trash on the street and sidewalk is, I believe, a sign of poor upbringing and poor education. It's a reflection on parents, teachers and society-- where 'being a slob' is too readily tolerated. It's the 'me' generation, with their 'get outta my face' attitude making a statement. By their actions, they are disrespecting themselves and the public environment. What their actions are really saying is, 'look at me, I'm a fool and I don't care.' Well, they got that one right! Michael Hohmann Linden Hills REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Michael Hohmann wrote: Tossing bottles, cans, wrappings and other trash on the street and sidewalk is, I believe, a sign of poor upbringing and poor education. It's a reflection on parents, teachers and society-- where 'being a slob' is too readily tolerated. It's the 'me' generation, with their 'get outta my face' attitude making a statement. By their actions, they are disrespecting themselves and the public environment. What their actions are really saying is, 'look at me, I'm a fool and I don't care.' Well, they got that one right! WM: I think you've misinterpreted the whole phenomenon. For the very poor, totally dissed population, refusing to comply is their only power--the power to say no to social constraints. It's not poor upbringing so much as bitterness, bone deep fatigue, and an exercise of the only power available to them. WizardMarks, Central ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Excuses, excuses, excuses. There is no sense of personal responsibility. Minneapolis will continue to degrade if this is this prevailing attitude. Tom Searles Watching from the sidelines in Waconia Twp. WM: I think you've misinterpreted the whole phenomenon. For the very poor, totally dissed population, refusing to comply is their only power--the power to say no to social constraints. It's not poor upbringing so much as bitterness, bone deep fatigue, and an exercise of the only power available to them. WizardMarks, Central REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
Mr. Searles says, in part... Teachers? You're blaming teachers for kids being slobs? Mr. Searles, I'm in Mpls., you're in Waconia. Your chivalry on behalf of teachers is noted, but please consider that I'm speaking of situations where generation after generation of kids have kids; they drop out of school, they have no job skills and they remain unemployed or are stuck with low-paying jobs for life. They don't teach their children well. The cycle just seems to continue unrelenting. Too often, too many parents don't serve as good role models for their kids, and in many cases they serve as outright bad role models. Granted, 'poor upbringing' tends to perpetuate the cycle, but the educational establishment should not be held harmless for their role, or lack thereof, in nurturing child development as part of the educational process. And believe me, life's circumstances are very different neighborhood to neighborhood, city to city, urban to rural. Too often, teachers bear the brunt of criticism for results they don't fully influence nor control-- agreed. However, that should not absolve the educational system -and teachers- of all responsibility for improving the lives of kids in the system. Schools share a responsibility with parents to impart positive, motivated and respectful attitudes in students. Just because some parents are falling short doesn't absolve the educational system of their ongoing responsibility. Yes, it's easier to blame the educational system than teachers -it dissipates the accountability- but where does responsibility lie for this portion of the equation-- for the six hours a day, five days a week for eight months a year, that the kids are in school? That's why I stated, in part, that... It's a reflection on parents, teachers and society-- where 'being a slob' is too readily tolerated. Poor upbringing by parents, overly complacent teachers AND an overly complacent educational system, along with a society that expects too little from it's members, tends to perpetuate this disrespectful slob mentality. Mr. Searles states, Put the responsibility where it belongs and you might be able to solve some problems. That's just what I tried to do, Mr. Searles. I'd say we're all responsible to varying degree, however I too place most responsibility on individual parents and their out-of-control, slob kids! And society is too complacent to speak up about it! ~ And Wizard Marks adds, I think you've misinterpreted the whole phenomenon. For the very poor, totally dissed population, refusing to comply is their only power--the power to say no to social constraints. It's not poor upbringing so much as bitterness, bone deep fatigue, and an exercise of the only power available to them. [MH] What can I say? There's no excuse, they're slobs! Without an altered attitude they are doomed. Michael Hohmann Linden Hills -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Searles Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 1:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass Teachers? You're blaming teachers for kids being slobs? Is that part of the curriculum in the Minneapolis School District? You should have stopped at 'poor upbringing'. Blame the parents unless the children are very young. Put the responsibility where it belongs and you might be able to solve some problems. Tom Searles Waconia, Twp. Husband of a teacher who keeps her classroom under control. - Original Message - From: Michael Hohmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jeff Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 8:52 AM Subject: RE: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass Tossing bottles, cans, wrappings and other trash on the street and sidewalk is, I believe, a sign of poor upbringing and poor education. It's a reflection on parents, teachers and society-- where 'being a slob' is too readily tolerated. It's the 'me' generation, with their 'get outta my face' attitude making a statement. By their actions, they are disrespecting themselves and the public environment. What their actions are really saying is, 'look at me, I'm a fool and I don't care.' Well, they got that one right! Michael Hohmann Linden Hills REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing
Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 12:13 PM, Emilie Quast wrote: To state what worries me, in the boulevards broken glass is a hazard to my feet in sandals and to my dog's footpads, and ditto for passers-by. In the front lawn and boulevards, we have a potentially lethal missle if glass isn't picked up before the lawn mower spews it out (at how many MPH?), plus I like to go barefoot and so does the dog. On the playground, it WILL be found--hopefully not in some kid's chin, hand or knee, but that's where I expect it to end up. I'm also in Southeast. We have two family homes on the same block. Not far from Joe's (Southeasters will know where this is). And so we get a large quantity of thrown items as people leave Joe's store and start chucking wrappers, cans, and bottles out the window. I followed a car once that had stopped and showed the young man the can he had just thrown out his window. I told him he was to use waste receptacles in the future. He actually agreed. But, here's what we do. We pick up constantly 52/12 winter and summer. We pick up the items tossed in neighbors' yards when we see them. We pick up items in the street when we see them. One of my favorite tricks is to pick up the item right after it is thrown so the tosser can see me picking it up. It is just a mini lesson that will change the behavior of a tiny few in the future. That's the deal. It is convenient to have a store in the neighborhood. But the cost is litter and lots of it. When UM student party season is in full swing (summer, breaks, and holidays) we get the cans and bottles but also the poopies. That is definitely horrible to dispose of. I'm guessing we will have to organize more pick up details that range beyond our immediate block. An ordinance would be tough to enforce where the rate of tossing is so high (at least in my neighborhood). A citywide campaign would be nice. Sigh. Best, Laura Wittstock Laura Waterman Wittstock MIGIZI Communications, Inc. 3123 East Lake Street Minneapolis, MN 55406 612.721.6631 ext 219 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.migizi.org REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
I live on busy Johnson Street in Northeast. There is a constant flow of litter that collects in my yard. I pick it up when I see it which is all I can really do. Every spring and fall we have the Weed It and Reap which is a neighborhood clean-up that encourages everyone to do some tidying. iT is effective for those two dates but in between things can get sketchy. Since Holy Land's big remodel on Central Avenue I have seen a lot more trash in the gutters, I mean a lot. It is staring to look like Cedar Avenue which seems to have some of the worst summer trash problems around. Same goes for Broadway in North Minneapolis. Perhaps the most thoughtless trend I have seen lately is dumping entire bags of fast-food and wrappers right in the street. This is occurs all the time, especially in the Holland and Logan neighborhoods. You'll see a murder of crows feeding on french fries and stale cheese in the gutters on weekend mornings after the feeding frenzy of friday night (the day it seems to most occur). I am actually considering making a big plywood sign to put in the yard- -- l DON'T LITTER, l l l l THIS IS OUR l l STREET!l l__l ll ll Feel free to copy my sign, I worked hard on the concept ;). Sean Ryan Audubon PS story I --I was once standing on Central waiting for a bus when the guy next to me threw a half full soda can on the sidewalk. A cop who had been waiting at the light immediately sped up and gave the man a shouting; apparently the cop was pretty frustrated because he used some words that shouldn't be yelled from a cruiser window. The litterer sure learned his lesson and promptly pciked it up and placesd it in the receptacle 18 inches away. PS story II --While stuck in gridlock on 35w South (near diamond lake) one afternoon I glanced out the window at the large storm drain. It was cigarette butts 3 inches deep 4 feet across. It so disturbed me that I have since encouraged everyone to use their ashtrays, not only for saftey but for the dear old Mississippi. Cigarette butts are usually fiberglass and are filled with toxins not good for the water. _ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Tossing bottles/broken glass
The big question to me is, how do we make people proud of our city? I'm proud to live here, and I want to do everything I can to make it better. There are those, however, who simply do not (I must add here that, although I hate to say it, the problem to me seems to mostly be students. Being a student myself, I don't like to make such a broad condemnation, but I'm afraid it's true). What would make these people care for their environment. An example: Some time ago, way back when the buses were running, I was sitting outside Rainbow Foods waiting for a bus. So were a few students who had just come from Target. One of them had a CD, which she unwrapped, throwing the wrapper on the ground in front of her. I might add that there was a garbage can on THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BUS SHELTER! I told her that she should throw it out. She responded: 'Yeah, probably. But I'm too lazy.' I can't understand where this complete lack of repect comes from. Even if she is just a temporary resident of the city, I can't see it. --Jeff Rosenberg Cedar/Riverside Who gets his exercise walking all the way to the garbage can. REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
