Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Hi David Keith, Keith Addison wrote: Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? As to the size of the mixer, how long is a piece of string? I didn't really want to get into this [...] Still, I'm glad you did. That helps a lot. I'm not sure it will though, it's a bit unlikely that they'd use such a setup. More likely the company that provides the processor will decide, and they'd quite likely opt for a bigger processor (and lower labour costs?). What I am trying to do (besides publicly exposing my ignorance re biodiesel), :-) Never mind, so are they. is to get some idea of how it will look on the ground so I can fold that information into my thoughts about the design of the biogas part of the process, which (as mentioned) is apparently an afterthought. As the poor step child, feeding from the table scraps of the biodiesel process, it behooves us to have a fine understanding of what is happening so as not to get in the way... Finally, I mentioned interplanting or intercropping options with Jatropha. I have found some resources regarding this [...] Did you try this? http://www.fact-fuels.org/en/FACT_Knowledge_Centre/FACT_Publications?session=cl4scdo0dk1e8c4ql2hpeev1s1 I had not previously seen that page, although I had encountered some of the publications, such as the handbook. Again, many thanks. Also: Physic nut -- Jatropha curcas L. Promoting the conservation and use of underutilized and neglected crops [...] I did run across that publication by Heller. But in spite of its relatively recent vintage (1996) he seems unconvinced that you (and your brethren and sistren) exist: Yeah he's right, we don't exist, it's more peaceful that way. Transesterified oil can be used in any diesel engine. This process is normally carried out in centralized plants since the the small-scale economy of transesterification has not been determined. [p 22, para 3] :-) So it is sometimes alleged, especially in the world of jatropha it seems. Eg: Production principle: SVO - decentralized small oil expellers Biodiesel - central, big industrial units [Also:] Human toxicity SVO - regularly no or small Biodiesel - toxic And so on - from Comparison of pure plant oil and bio diesel as fuel by Prof. E. Schrimpff, FH Weihenstephan, Germany http://jatropha.org/p-o-engines/svo-bd-characteristics.htm A rather ignorant professor. Schrimpff hmpff. And he does not even mention biogas (sniff!). Aw. Quite a lot about it at www.fact-fuels.org though, hope that helps. For my own purposes only, I found Claims and Facts on Jatropha curcas L. (linked from the page you mentioned) to have more of the sort of information that interests me (http://www.ifad.org/events/jatropha/breeding/claims.pdf and elsewhere). Yes, that's quite useful. Thanks. Best Keith d. -- David William House The Complete Biogas Handbook |www.completebiogas.com| Make no search for water. But find thirst, And water from the very ground will burst. (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Hello David Keith, Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? If I understand correctly, it will take perhaps 3 days to produce the biodiesel in the mixer, after which one could (and in a plant this size, would probably) pump the reactant elsewhere to undertake other processes using other equipment: settling, separation, washing, etc. If it takes a day to clean, prepare and load the mixer, and we add a half day to give some slack for... whatever, then the amount of reactant one can process in a year would have to be about 80 times the volume of the mixer. Thus with some idea of the ratio of end-product biodiesel volume to reactant volume, I would be able to estimate the size of the mixer itself. What is that ratio? Reactant usually means the alcohol, methanol, which is usually 20% of the volume of oil being processed. For the ratio of end-product biodiesel volume to feedstock volume, ie the jatropha oil, the production rate is or should be 100%: 1,000 litres of oil 1,000 litres of biodiesel. As to the size of the mixer, how long is a piece of string? I didn't really want to get into this (I don't work for such projects), and anyway the question didn't make sense to me. However, I mentioned a 1,000-litre processor, that would be a batch processor. I wouldn't want to do it, but using the basic single-stage base process, the processor should be able to produce one batch in little more than an hour, say 7-8 batches per working day, 7-8,000 litres a day. (An oil pre-heating tank would help.) The product could all go into multiple settling tanks (say 8, or use bigger tanks), for separation of the biodiesel from the settled by-product cocktail the next day, freeing the tanks for the next batches; again, say 8 washing tanks could get the washing process done in another day if stir washing is used, though that means the fuel has to be made properly or it will emulsify, see: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html Multiple tanks take a bit of space, maybe they haven't got the space or the labour or whatever, everyone's situation is different, so people use different schemes. Anything from 8 batches a day to 1 batch a day to a batch every five days is possible, with the same processor. To calculate your ratio you'd have to find out more about how they intend to operate (if they know). People often want to speed up the process to make it more efficient, which usually means taking shortcuts with the process itself or with stuff like centrifuges or so-called dry-washing and so on, unnecessary extras that don't work very well (not as well as gravity and water, respectively). But it's not really more efficiency they want, it's more production. Rather than messing with the process, get a bigger processor, or a second processor running in parallel (and double the number of settling and washing tanks). Keith Addison wrote: The project information I have says that they intend to use a suitable packed column, condenser, and receiver... to recover excess amount of Methanol in the system. These are the options: Reclaiming excess methanol http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim As I grow more familiar with the site, I grow more amazed and grateful. Fabulous resource. Why thankyou sir. :-) By the way, on the page http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html, a link to Boston University's site is given for the MSDS for methanol (http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSMethanol.html). It's not there, even given that a search of the site using the tools thereon provided demonstrates that it's supposed to be there. In fact, it looks like, for the moment or permanently, /all/ MSDS information (http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/ESMSDS.html), even as linked from the lab safety page itself, has disappeared. (A pretty good MSDS for methanol is found at http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/M2015.htm, if the BU site does not resolve its problems soon, and a generic resource for MSDS information is at http://www2.hazard.com/msds/.) Aarghh!!! Broken links! Why do they do it?? :-( Thankyou David, I'll fix it. One can make biogas from methanol, and it therefore seems possible to me based on what little I know about its contents that the whole unseparated glycerol fraction of the trans-esterified result could likely be put in the digester. List members have surmised that, but not confirmed it. I'd be interested to know the results. I'm fuzzy as yet on when we will get a chance to run proof-of-concept tests, but if/when, I'll be in touch. Yes please. Finally, I mentioned interplanting or intercropping options with Jatropha. I have found some resources regarding this: http://www.jatrophabiodiesel.org/intercropping.php?_divid=menu3 http://www.bioruta.com/JATROPHA/Documentos/Agrotechnology%20of%20Jatropha.pdf The basic story, as far as I yet have found
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Keith, Keith Addison wrote: Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? As to the size of the mixer, how long is a piece of string? I didn't really want to get into this [...] Still, I'm glad you did. That helps a lot. What I am trying to do (besides publicly exposing my ignorance re biodiesel), is to get some idea of how it will look on the ground so I can fold that information into my thoughts about the design of the biogas part of the process, which (as mentioned) is apparently an afterthought. As the poor step child, feeding from the table scraps of the biodiesel process, it behooves us to have a fine understanding of what is happening so as not to get in the way... Finally, I mentioned interplanting or intercropping options with Jatropha. I have found some resources regarding this [...] Did you try this? http://www.fact-fuels.org/en/FACT_Knowledge_Centre/FACT_Publications?session=cl4scdo0dk1e8c4ql2hpeev1s1 I had not previously seen that page, although I had encountered some of the publications, such as the handbook. Again, many thanks. Also: Physic nut -- Jatropha curcas L. Promoting the conservation and use of underutilized and neglected crops [...] I did run across that publication by Heller. But in spite of its relatively recent vintage (1996) he seems unconvinced that you (and your brethren and sistren) exist: Transesterified oil can be used in any diesel engine. This process is normally carried out in centralized plants since the the small-scale economy of transesterification has not been determined. [p 22, para 3] And he does not even mention biogas (sniff!). For my own purposes only, I found Claims and Facts on Jatropha curcas L. (linked from the page you mentioned) to have more of the sort of information that interests me (http://www.ifad.org/events/jatropha/breeding/claims.pdf and elsewhere). d. -- David William House The Complete Biogas Handbook |www.completebiogas.com| Make no search for water. But find thirst, And water from the very ground will burst. (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090104/de53cdef/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Hi David Keith, Keith Addison wrote: Hello David And back at you. Good to hear from you. I've been contacted about a project in south Asia which would involve planting 600 ha to Jatropha, to produce 3,500 tonnes of biodiesel annually Since it bears on some of the points you raised, let me say that my connection to the project is indirect. An organization with which I've done some consulting re biogas has gotten interest from the folks who are developing the biodiesel plant, and so I've been asked to assist with the biogas add-on. As such, even if I had the answers to your [excellent] questions regarding the selection of Jatropha, monocultures, and whether mere jobs count as SED (social and economic development) since the information I have thus far makes only that connection, I neither know nor if I did would it make any difference. My position in the venture is rather humble, as befits my vast gifts (or perhaps they're half-vast). As such, I ask the questions I ask for two reasons. One is that I'm insatiably curious, just like Kipling's elephant child, and the other is that the biogas portion of the project, afterthought that it appears to be, should be designed with an eye towards the realities that are likely, as contrasted to simply what is stated as the plans. I'm always suspicious of the best crop or the best technology approach (see eg http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous4.html#1511Technology and the poor), and 600-ha monocrop plantations don't have a very good record. No question. We've talked about SED previously. My view, boiled down, is that what is needed is to attend to improving human capacity, in a manner which is very sensitive and wise regarding creating dependencies. Whereas, most projects that engage or purport to engage in SED aim themselves at problems identified by the external organization (not the people themselves; this is often the first mistake), and generally tend toward solutions that are impossible for the people themselves to implement. There are times, no question, where certain necessary solutions are and will remain beyond the capacity of people to implement, but generally those are not low on Maslow's hierarchy. That is, people everywhere are really pretty smart about their own circumstances, and usually with fairly modest help they can feed and shelter themselves. Where people provide these things themselves, there is an increase in dignity, confidence, and capacity. Where solutions are offered which require them to depend on external charity in a chronic manner (for example) usually things get worse. Well put. Have you read this, by the way? The same gist: Community development http://journeytoforever.org/community.html http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Why jatropha? Whose choice was it? [... etc.] As I said, excellent questions, but having an impact on the implied decisions is presently above my pay grade. My wisest option, I imagine, is to do the best possible job within the fairly obvious constraints of the situation, and try to make as valuable a contribution as I can. All else being equal, if there are follow-on projects, successful realization of those goals may give me earlier access, increase my responsibility, and make it more possible to be among the voices that determine the shape of critical aspects of those future projects. Amid all the jatropha hype, this report is interesting, I don't know if you saw it, from GRAIN: Jatropha - the agrofuel of the poor? GRAIN July 2007 http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=480 That whole July 2007 issue of Seedling is worth a look: http://www.grain.org/seedling/?type=68 Excellent resources. So, ... [w]hat size would/should [the mixer] be to produce that much biodiesel annually? You could probably set the upper limit of what would qualify as DIY or homebrew or local coop or Appropriate Technology-level biodiesel production at about 1,000 gallons a day, which is about a [third] of what they're planning. They'll be wanting an industrial processor. [...] Yes, I think they are; or at least the plant will be at the small end of industrial. Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? I don't do that kind of work, only Appropriate Technology. I'll email you offlist though. Second, am I near the mark with suggesting that the project consider producing ethanol (or butanol) rather than purchasing methanol? [...] Nobody does it [...] I strongly suggest you stick with methanol. Good to know. After modest research I had thought so, but I was not sure. Methanol is an affordable input. Glycerol/glycerine would be one by-product at perhaps 10% of the amount of biodiesel (i.e. ~350 tonnes/yr?). Glycerol/glycerine plus soap, and it will take quite a lot of 85% phosphoric acid (not cheap) to separate the two, which would probably be advisable, unless you want a whole lot of
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Keith, Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? If I understand correctly, it will take perhaps 3 days to produce the biodiesel in the mixer, after which one could (and in a plant this size, would probably) pump the reactant elsewhere to undertake other processes using other equipment: settling, separation, washing, etc. If it takes a day to clean, prepare and load the mixer, and we add a half day to give some slack for... whatever, then the amount of reactant one can process in a year would have to be about 80 times the volume of the mixer. Thus with some idea of the ratio of end-product biodiesel volume to reactant volume, I would be able to estimate the size of the mixer itself. What is that ratio? Keith Addison wrote: The project information I have says that they intend to use a suitable packed column, condenser, and receiver... to recover excess amount of Methanol in the system. These are the options: Reclaiming excess methanol http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim As I grow more familiar with the site, I grow more amazed and grateful. Fabulous resource. By the way, on the page http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html, a link to Boston University's site is given for the MSDS for methanol (http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSMethanol.html). It's not there, even given that a search of the site using the tools thereon provided demonstrates that it's supposed to be there. In fact, it looks like, for the moment or permanently, /all/ MSDS information (http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/ESMSDS.html), even as linked from the lab safety page itself, has disappeared. (A pretty good MSDS for methanol is found at http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/M2015.htm, if the BU site does not resolve its problems soon, and a generic resource for MSDS information is at http://www2.hazard.com/msds/.) One can make biogas from methanol, and it therefore seems possible to me based on what little I know about its contents that the whole unseparated glycerol fraction of the trans-esterified result could likely be put in the digester. List members have surmised that, but not confirmed it. I'd be interested to know the results. I'm fuzzy as yet on when we will get a chance to run proof-of-concept tests, but if/when, I'll be in touch. Finally, I mentioned interplanting or intercropping options with Jatropha. I have found some resources regarding this: http://www.jatrophabiodiesel.org/intercropping.php?_divid=menu3 http://www.bioruta.com/JATROPHA/Documentos/Agrotechnology%20of%20Jatropha.pdf The basic story, as far as I yet have found out, appears to be that young Jatropha plants (up to 3 years) need a lot of sunlight to grow, so any other crop interplanted while the Jatropha plants are small, should not shade them. Other than that, I have not found any mention of restrictions, i.e. plants that will not grow when interplanted with Jatropha, or which suppress the growth of Jatropha. I have seen mention of corn, tomatoes, rice, sesame, red peppers, legumes and grasses in general, and many other plants which, it is suggested on various sites, can be used in co-plantings. I suspect that there must be allelopathic interactions between some of these plants and Jatropha, but as yet I have not found careful reports of research which bear on the question. Some work has apparently been done by Pankaj Oudhia (http://www.pankajoudhia.com/resume_pankaj.htm), who appears to have a real aversion to Jatropha. (Based on what he says about himself, I'm not sure I would entirely trust his evaluation as dispassionate.) d. -- David William House The Complete Biogas Handbook |www.completebiogas.com| Make no search for water. But find thirst, And water from the very ground will burst. (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090103/a2cf70f5/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Hello David Dear list experts, I note a good deal of information in the list about using Jatropha (J. curcas) for biodiesel, and, mindful of repeated admonitions, I've looked for information about the questions I have in the archives, but I've not yet seen answers directly to my questions. My own background is in biogas, and I have only recently started learning about biodiesel and ethanol, so I'm an admixture of knowing and novice. May I ask a few questions? But of course. (And Kieth, no doubt there are many gems in the archives which of which you know, yet which I missed. Please feel free to educate me regarding their nature and location.) I keep finding surprises there. There are 74,000 messages, 498.4 Mb of it, and that's in a compressed format, it's at least 500 books' worth. I've been contacted about a project in south Asia which would involve planting 600 ha to Jatropha, to produce 3,500 tonnes of biodiesel annually. (Based on what I've seen about Jatropha, that may be optimistic for yield, but I'm just presenting the information as given to me.) Obviously then that also means either the use of a good deal of methanol (as presently planned), or (as I have suggested), producing either ethanol or butanol through fermentation and using one or more than one together for separation. The oil cake resulting from oil extraction would be feedstock for a biogas plant. The biodiesel plant is presently being considered as a prototype for a number of such plants, and among the key goals of the project are social and economic development, not merely the production of fuel, and although the project expects a profit, my impression is that things would be operated to produce a balance of outcomes. I quite often hear of projects that sound similar (they often want advice from us). I'm always suspicious of the best crop or the best technology approach (see eg http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous4.html#1511Technology and the poor), and 600-ha monocrop plantations don't have a very good record. Why jatropha? Whose choice was it? On what grounds? Because there's a tax rebate for it in India? (There is still, isn't there?) Because it's hyped such a lot? I'm not being too sceptical, those are common reasons. If social and economic development are truly key goals, then the approach has to be bottom-up, not top-down. How are the local people to benefit? Did anybody ask them yet? There are other choices besides jatropha. The hype says the jatropha seedcake makes a great organic fertiliser, but the truth is that a non-poisonous seedcake that can be fed to livestock is generally much more useful - in fact it can make the difference to whether a project is feasible or not. Generating biogas from the cake first might make better numbers, but, again, how would the local community see it? What oil crops do the local farmers use, or know of? Wouldn't using mixed species something like J. Russell Smith's Tree Crops http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#treecrops but with a bias towards oil production (easily done) be better? Such an agroforestry project, with intercropping, livestock grazing and so on, would seem to offer much more than a monocrop plantation could, and be more likely to be adaptible to local conditions, and the local community. Amid all the jatropha hype, this report is interesting, I don't know if you saw it, from GRAIN: Jatropha - the agrofuel of the poor? GRAIN July 2007 http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=480 That whole July 2007 issue of Seedling is worth a look: http://www.grain.org/seedling/?type=68 So, first question: Although I've reviewed the project overview, which mentions that the biodiesel mixer will be batch loaded, as yet I have no information about the size of the unit. What size would/should it be to produce that much biodiesel annually? You could probably set the upper limit of what would qualify as DIY or homebrew or local coop or Appropriate Technology-level biodiesel production at about 1,000 gallons a day, which is about a tenth of what they're planning. They'll be wanting an industrial processor. If the biodiesel plant is to be a prototype for a number of such plants, they'll also be industrial processors. Second, am I near the mark with suggesting that the project consider producing ethanol (or butanol) rather than purchasing methanol? Certainly it will provide increased challenges to use ethanol, and perhaps even more to use butanol (in either case including adding complexity to the process), but I would think for a plant this large, with good access to land (albeit perhaps marginal land) and given the low labor costs in the area, it may make sense, although one problem may be training personnel. Yes? No? Nobody does it. A few homebrewers use ethanol, and they seem to be the only ones, virtually all or all commercially produced biodiesel is methyl esters, not ethyl esters. The ethanol biodiesel process is not easy, but the main
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Hello again David Re this: You could probably set the upper limit of what would qualify as DIY or homebrew or local coop or Appropriate Technology-level biodiesel production at about 1,000 gallons a day, which is about a tenth of what they're planning. They'll be wanting an industrial processor. If the biodiesel plant is to be a prototype for a number of such plants, they'll also be industrial processors. Sorry, I got the numbers wrong, took gallons for litres - it's about a third of the planned production, not a tenth. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Keith, Keith Addison wrote: Hello David And back at you. Good to hear from you. I've been contacted about a project in south Asia which would involve planting 600 ha to Jatropha, to produce 3,500 tonnes of biodiesel annually Since it bears on some of the points you raised, let me say that my connection to the project is indirect. An organization with which I've done some consulting re biogas has gotten interest from the folks who are developing the biodiesel plant, and so I've been asked to assist with the biogas add-on. As such, even if I had the answers to your [excellent] questions regarding the selection of Jatropha, monocultures, and whether mere jobs count as SED (social and economic development) since the information I have thus far makes only that connection, I neither know nor if I did would it make any difference. My position in the venture is rather humble, as befits my vast gifts (or perhaps they're half-vast). As such, I ask the questions I ask for two reasons. One is that I'm insatiably curious, just like Kipling's elephant child, and the other is that the biogas portion of the project, afterthought that it appears to be, should be designed with an eye towards the realities that are likely, as contrasted to simply what is stated as the plans. I'm always suspicious of the best crop or the best technology approach (see eg http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous4.html#1511Technology and the poor), and 600-ha monocrop plantations don't have a very good record. No question. We've talked about SED previously. My view, boiled down, is that what is needed is to attend to improving human capacity, in a manner which is very sensitive and wise regarding creating dependencies. Whereas, most projects that engage or purport to engage in SED aim themselves at problems identified by the external organization (not the people themselves; this is often the first mistake), and generally tend toward solutions that are impossible for the people themselves to implement. There are times, no question, where certain necessary solutions are and will remain beyond the capacity of people to implement, but generally those are not low on Maslow's hierarchy. That is, people everywhere are really pretty smart about their own circumstances, and usually with fairly modest help they can feed and shelter themselves. Where people provide these things themselves, there is an increase in dignity, confidence, and capacity. Where solutions are offered which require them to depend on external charity in a chronic manner (for example) usually things get worse. Why jatropha? Whose choice was it? [... etc.] As I said, excellent questions, but having an impact on the implied decisions is presently above my pay grade. My wisest option, I imagine, is to do the best possible job within the fairly obvious constraints of the situation, and try to make as valuable a contribution as I can. All else being equal, if there are follow-on projects, successful realization of those goals may give me earlier access, increase my responsibility, and make it more possible to be among the voices that determine the shape of critical aspects of those future projects. Amid all the jatropha hype, this report is interesting, I don't know if you saw it, from GRAIN: Jatropha - the agrofuel of the poor? GRAIN July 2007 http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=480 That whole July 2007 issue of Seedling is worth a look: http://www.grain.org/seedling/?type=68 Excellent resources. So, ... [w]hat size would/should [the mixer] be to produce that much biodiesel annually? You could probably set the upper limit of what would qualify as DIY or homebrew or local coop or Appropriate Technology-level biodiesel production at about 1,000 gallons a day, which is about a [third] of what they're planning. They'll be wanting an industrial processor. [...] Yes, I think they are; or at least the plant will be at the small end of industrial. Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? Second, am I near the mark with suggesting that the project consider producing ethanol (or butanol) rather than purchasing methanol? [...] Nobody does it [...] I strongly suggest you stick with methanol. Good to know. After modest research I had thought so, but I was not sure. Glycerol/glycerine would be one by-product at perhaps 10% of the amount of biodiesel (i.e. ~350 tonnes/yr?). Glycerol/glycerine plus soap, and it will take quite a lot of 85% phosphoric acid (not cheap) to separate the two, which would probably be advisable, unless you want a whole lot of powerful soap in the biogas digester, not sure it would like that. If the feedstock is mostly oil cake (small particle size), it might be possible to deal with some of the soap-type contaminants, which would tend to increase problems with scum.
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha -- Reality or Hype?
I am having a similar doubt here as well, is Jatropha a reality? Indeed it is a living tree, even I had one germinated from seed as a pot plant. But is it a reality? What make it better then the more productive oil palm if it still need fertilizer and irrigation to thrive? Or course, Jatropha can thrive on more soil then oil palm, and perhaps can better adapt as claimed. And then rather then planting it in marginal land, there wont be enough marginal land and if the demand is high, the lesser demand, such as less profitable and labor intensive vegetable land, will be replaced with Jatropha, or just got eaten by large plantation. The biggest doubt in my mind is Jatropha is not been throughoutly studied like soy bean, maize, oil palm, etc. There is no high yield hybrid avalable but most are germinated from regular seeds and hence the quality may differ. This will make unpredictable return for an investment, which is bad. Whats worst is the waste of farmland into some worthless venture. Furthermore, it is labor intensive, no mechanized harvesting available. I believe that Jatropha can be survive in US in the more arid area. And for maximum output, irrigation will be provided. But I strongly doubt it will ever landed in USA as labor cost a bomb there. 1/2 cent. Regards Rexis On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: If reality, can it be done in the US or only developing nations? I wonder what you're talking about? Jatropha is certainly a reality, it's something that exists, it's not just hype, it's a tree. So? There's a lot of information on jatropha in the archives. Try this, eg: Jatropha - the agrofuel of the poor? (160 kb) http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=480 GRAIN, July 2007 Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080827/4db31d5c/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha -- Reality or Hype?
If reality, can it be done in the US or only developing nations? I wonder what you're talking about? Jatropha is certainly a reality, it's something that exists, it's not just hype, it's a tree. So? There's a lot of information on jatropha in the archives. Try this, eg: Jatropha - the agrofuel of the poor? (160 kb) http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=480 GRAIN, July 2007 Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha vs Castor
Thx keith I missed out the castor oil discussion last time. Hello REXIS. The castor oil is highly questionable as a raw material for biodiesel production due to two important issues:: 1) The biodiesel from castor oil will have a too high viscosity well outside the specs. 2) The fatty acids of castor oil are very special and polymerize easily forming heavier compounds while releasing water. Unsuitable ? Yes. 0) Even cow fat can be made into biodiesel 1) They can process semi solid crude palm oil into biodiesel that can widthstand cold climate, perhaps we just need a little bit more process to work out the castor oil? But as I know, castor oil can stand extremely low temperature down to 15 degree C, this is a good properties. 2) What does this means? Shorter shelf life? Any reference? Are you sure it's wasteland? I think land is in short supply in India, any land. It has marketed as such tat many lands in India are arid, no agricultural value and idle. The idea is to cover all those so called unproductive land with Jatropha and then bring profit to rural people. But IMHO, at the moment, with the quotes in Keith's reply, the most who profit most is those Jatropha seeds supplier. A few months back, I saw a company promoting Jatropha in some agri fair, quoting RM1500 for each kg of seeds! And no kidding, people are rushing into planting Jatropha now even in Malaysia, without even properly understand the plant. You miss a major disadvantage, that the oilseed cake left after extraction is toxic and cannot be fed to livestock. That is almost always downplayed by jatropha fans, but it can seriously affect the economics of using jatropha as a biodiesel feedstock. Castor seedcake has 3-5% of ricin by weight, but I read about that it is possible to remove the toxin and make the cake into animal feed. Maybe they can do the same to Jatropha seed cake, like roast it or something. ther disadvantages are that it's difficult to extract the seed, and difficult to extract the oil from the seed. Its none the less extremely labourious to harvest the fruit, especially when the plants are too tall. In terms of extrating the oil from seed, how is it if compare to rapeseed? I have never touch a Jatropha seed before, so no idea how the physical properties is, but according to web picture, it looks like laychi seed and hardy. Castor seed, aka castor bean, lately I had encountered a few wild Castor Plant(and hence this discussion) and has took back some of its fruits. The castor seeds is more like oil sap, you can squezz it easily by hand, and then you can literally press the oil out with your fingers(wash your hand after doing so). Jatropha has it's place as an oil crop nonetheless, and so does castor oil, despite their disadvantages, but it depends on the place, on the local circumstances. Neither is likely to be a sole solution, but one of a range of solutions. So the idea is to produce a local renewable oil, whats the point to import biodiesel? You still depend on others. I always think that the idea of producing highly valuable biofuel and run them in fuel guzzler with a ruthless driver is absurd. Why not improve the vehicle and the people first. See, E85 sport car won a race, but is there a point? That your 6.0 V12 can be green? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha vs Castor
No biofuel offers a real solution if it is simply a replacement for fossil fuels used according to the current patterns. That's what's wrong with the current corporate approach to biofuels. Biofuels do enable fuels to be manufactured on a small scale, which is a requirement of the real solution, that is, a reduction in the need to use vehicles to a level at which post-peak petroleum is not economically viable. The point about racing with E85 is simply that it's a lovely racing fuel. If you forget about perfidious-electronics-based flex-fuelery and start chasing the positive spirals that arise when you optimize an engine for E100 exclusively you end up with a 600bhp 1100 and wondering how to get enough bearing width and crank web thickness into so small a crankcase. If you don't go to such extremes it's the perfect hobby-car fuel - especially if the town's entire vehicle fleet consists of a hundred farm trucks, a dozen sports cars, and a first-strike pump. -Dawie - Original Message From: Rexis Tree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, 12 June, 2007 10:32:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha vs Castor I always think that the idea of producing highly valuable biofuel and run them in fuel guzzler with a ruthless driver is absurd. Why not improve the vehicle and the people first. See, E85 sport car won a race, but is there a point? That your 6.0 V12 can be green? ___ New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha vs Castor
Hello REXIS. The castor oil is highly questionable as a raw material for biodiesel production due to two important issues:: 1) The biodiesel from castor oil will have a too high viscosity well outside the specs. 2) The fatty acids of castor oil are very special and polymerize easily forming heavier compounds while releasing water. Unsuitable ? Yes. With best regards Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Rexis Tree To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:54 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Jatropha vs Castor I had did some web study on Castor and Jatropha. Jatropha, being promoted as the perfect biodiesel crop by India, is receiving international highlights and many investors are interested or even start investing in planting this crop. This may spoil the original intension of promoting Jatropha, when large forest was cleared again to make way for Jatropha plantation rather then planting them on the wasteland or marginal land where india planned to do. Castor, the beautiful yet deadly seeds of castor, has been long used as an non edible oil source by mankind, as well as in other industrial application like paint, nylon, food addictive, lubricant, etc. And castor oil is a unuqie oil that it can completely dissolve in alcohol(not too sure what that means, no catalyst needed?). Our focus here is obviously biofuel. About which is the better choice for biodiesel. Similarity: - drought resistance - oily seeds sitable for fuel purpose - seed cake made an excellence manure - poisonious and therefore producing non eatable oil - a kind of weed Jatropha advantage - it is said that Jatropha would trive on all kind of soil even rocky soil - Higher oil yield - it can improve the soil quality Jatropha disadvantage - since it is relatively new crop therefore it was not well understood, and inaccurate yield figure estimation may harm profit, more research and real data required - Jatropha is suitable for India where large area of their land consist of arid wasteland, but may not be suitable to other country like those with lots of rain forest. Castor advantage - Castor oil is one of the oldest traded goods, mankind has been trading castor oil since a few thousand years ago - Castor oil has a lot of industrial usage, therefore a market is already exsistance, thou limited - Since it was cultivated before in commercial plantation, its biology is well understood, and high yield hybrid is available - Castor can be found in medium climate area as an annual crop or in tropical area as a small tree - faster oil yield and long term yield is possible for tropical/warm area Castor disadvantage - It is said that castor will exhaust the soil quickly, fertilizer required to maintain a large castor plantation for a reasonable yield, but castor can often been seen as weed growing without attension, therefore it is possible to plant it as marginal plant in unattended idle area. - it notorious poison is feared by the public, perhaps a research on castor poison(ricin) remedy is necessary. I do not have a conclusion currently, but as you can see, I am trying to open up Castor as an extra option here. Discussion: - Cultivation requirement: Jatropha maybe able to trive on most kind of soil, but I believe that to yield reasonable harvest, irrigation and fertilizer still required. Castor, while the cultivation requirement is better understood then Jatropha, it is still unknown about which one gets better yield if left unattended in a poor condition area, it is possible that each of them will exceed another under specific senarior, intercropping of castor and jatropha also an interesting subject. - Harvesting: it seems like it is more labourious to harvest Jatropha, which its yield grow as scattered fruit, yes, olive harvester can be modified to harvest Jatropha but it will involved high capital. Castor seem to be easier to harvest as its yeild made of a branch of fruit, worker can just cut the whole branch at once. - Toxicity: It seems that castor seeds are much more deadly then Jatropha, its toxic, which was being used in assasination, implies that it is extremely deadly and no remedy avaibale; however castor oil is perfectly harmless due to the fact that the toxic is only water soluble not oil soluble. Jatropha, even though toxic, in some case, was roasted and being eaten dangerously, but note that Jatropha toxic is deadly as well can kill a person by a 5-6 seeds, I am unable to find more articles about its toxicity and remedy about Jatropha here. Both plant is said can be detoxify by simply heating it and thurs destroying the toxic protein, confirmation needed here thou. - Cost: this is also a main factor, the lower input with higher outcome is desired. Any other topics are welcome. Just my 1/2 cents, top up or add on are most welcome. Regards
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha vs Castor
Hi Jan, Rexis Hello REXIS. The castor oil is highly questionable as a raw material for biodiesel production due to two important issues:: 1) The biodiesel from castor oil will have a too high viscosity well outside the specs. 2) The fatty acids of castor oil are very special and polymerize easily forming heavier compounds while releasing water. Thankyou - I didn't know it releases water while polymerising. (It's about 87% ricinoleic acid.) Actually it's a very stable oil, it takes heat to polymerise it. Because of how it works the polymerisation works as a benefit when castor oil is used as lubricating oil. As fuel, in biodiesel form, it would seem it would only get enough heat to polymerise once it's in the combustion chamber, but it wouldn't be there long enough for that before it combusts. If it does manage to release any water at that stage, it might not be a bad thing. A lot of work is being done on water injection and fuel-water emulsions, for the resulting emissions reductions. So I'm not sure the polymerising is an obstacle. The high viscosity is an obstacle, but nonetheless a lot of castor oil biodiesel is being produced and traded and used. Rexis, there has been a lot of previous discussion about castor oil and biodiesel, please see these archives links: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg64046.html Re: [Biofuel] Castor oil http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg61669.html Re: [Biofuel] sustainable biodiesel from Casto : Big is not beautiful, s You should use the list archives please. Unsuitable ? Yes. With best regards Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Rexis Tree To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:54 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Jatropha vs Castor I had did some web study on Castor and Jatropha. Jatropha, being promoted as the perfect biodiesel crop by India, is receiving international highlights and many investors are interested or even start investing in planting this crop. This may spoil the original intension of promoting Jatropha, when large forest was cleared again to make way for Jatropha plantation rather then planting them on the wasteland or marginal land where india planned to do. Castor, the beautiful yet deadly seeds of castor, has been long used as an non edible oil source by mankind, as well as in other industrial application like paint, nylon, food addictive, lubricant, etc. And castor oil is a unuqie oil that it can completely dissolve in alcohol(not too sure what that means, no catalyst needed?). It means that in theory castor oil can be used in ethanol production to separate the distilled ethanol from the 5% or more of water it will contain, producing anhydrous ethanol that can be used for production of ethyl esters biodiesel (and anhydrous ethanol can also be blended with gasoline for fuel use, but not if there's any water in it). Again, please use the archives. Our focus here is obviously biofuel. About which is the better choice for biodiesel. There really is no one-size-fits-all better choice for biodiesel. Biofuels production only makes sense at the local level, which means that the best choice will vary very widely depending on the local circumstances. By the way, I don't think you should be thinking in terms of industrialised monocrops and plantations and irrigation and fertilisers (along with mass-murder pesticides like paraquat), wrong direction, and no need for it. It's the wrong paradigm for biofuels production, it will almost always have negative repercussions, often severe, no matter which best crop you use. Similarity: - drought resistance - oily seeds sitable for fuel purpose - seed cake made an excellence manure Castor oil seedcake? With jatropha seedcake it's just an excuse - all oilseed cake makes an effective fertiliser but it's usually considered a waste, it's a better use to feed it to livestock and use the livestock manure as fertiliser. - poisonious and therefore producing non eatable oil - a kind of weed Jatropha advantage - it is said that Jatropha would trive on all kind of soil even rocky soil There are many trees that are just as hardy as jatropha, including oil-bearing trees that don't have some of jatropha's disadvantages. - Higher oil yield Higher than what, than castor oil? I doubt it. - it can improve the soil quality Allegedly, because it's a legume, and legumes fix nitrogen in their roots. Whether they actually do so or not and to what extent depends on a lot of things. Again, many other trees are legumes, including oil-bearing trees. Jatropha disadvantage - since it is relatively new crop therefore it was not well understood, and inaccurate yield figure estimation may harm profit, more research and real data required - Jatropha is suitable for India where large area of their land consist of arid wasteland, Are you
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha in India
Good reading http://www.biodieselsociety.org/news_international.asp - Original Message From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:53:57 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Jatropha in India Comment at the stoves list on jatropha by Dr. A. D. Karve, president of the Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) in Maharashtra, India (excerpts): Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 05:51:14 +0530 From: adkarve [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker I fail to understand, why the Government of India is making so much propaganda about Jatropha, which is a low yielding, wild plant. Nobody in India has ever obtained more than 300 to 400 kg of oil per ha from Jatropha. ... Any cultivated oilseed plant species, which has been subjected to plant breeding input, would yield more oil than Jatropha... Land is in short supply. If one has to use land to grow anything, one should not grow a low yielding plant like Jatropha. Yours A.D.Karve More from Dr Karve: Jatropha oil as household energy -- A critique of Jatropha in India: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg48290.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail QA for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396546091 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha in India
Good reading http://www.biodieselsociety.org/news_international.asp Are you kidding?? It's a load of obnoxious crap. ... if even a quarter of the continent's [Africa's] arable land were plowed into jatropha plantations, output would surpass 20 million barrels a day. So let's turn a quarter of Africa into a neo-colonial plantation economy rather than risk Europe having to tighten its prodigious belt a little (which it will have to do anyway). Sheesh! You once posted a recommendation to Dr. Karve's ARTI Institute: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg66982.html [Biofuel] Useful link Sivaramakrishnan Ananthakrishnan Tue, 31 Oct 2006 Why don't you listen to what he's saying? Keith - Original Message From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:53:57 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Jatropha in India Comment at the stoves list on jatropha by Dr. A. D. Karve, president of the Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) in Maharashtra, India (excerpts): Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 05:51:14 +0530 From: adkarve [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker I fail to understand, why the Government of India is making so much propaganda about Jatropha, which is a low yielding, wild plant. Nobody in India has ever obtained more than 300 to 400 kg of oil per ha from Jatropha. ... Any cultivated oilseed plant species, which has been subjected to plant breeding input, would yield more oil than Jatropha... Land is in short supply. If one has to use land to grow anything, one should not grow a low yielding plant like Jatropha. Yours A.D.Karve More from Dr Karve: Jatropha oil as household energy -- A critique of Jatropha in India: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg48290.html Best Keith - Original Message From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:53:57 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Jatropha in India Comment at the stoves list on jatropha by Dr. A. D. Karve, president of the Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) in Maharashtra, India (excerpts): Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 05:51:14 +0530 From: adkarve [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker I fail to understand, why the Government of India is making so much propaganda about Jatropha, which is a low yielding, wild plant. Nobody in India has ever obtained more than 300 to 400 kg of oil per ha from Jatropha. ... Any cultivated oilseed plant species, which has been subjected to plant breeding input, would yield more oil than Jatropha... Land is in short supply. If one has to use land to grow anything, one should not grow a low yielding plant like Jatropha. Yours A.D.Karve More from Dr Karve: Jatropha oil as household energy -- A critique of Jatropha in India: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg48290.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
Hi all, It takes here up to 4 hours online to update an anti virus and thus protection from would be hackers or just game players with zilch to do. To update I need to select one update at a time as the server may go off within 30 minutes and thus I would have lost all if I had selected all downloads at once. Yes we have a server problem, this we can do nothing about given the country and conditions. Takes me a "Journey to forever" to even locate a site let alone down load or read, if I read articles online the server drops out, such we start again, this truly is a never ending journey. To this end, so far I have available quantities of Jotropha of the toxic variety. I can plant these on "Raped" hillsides to stop erosion and start terraced rice or other agriculturalfarms. I have a home made press for oil extraction and using large drums to make ethanol. Have run several batches so far so good with drying in lime. Have farm tractors running on the filtered Jatropha oil with no other treatment just press the oil, filter it and then straight into the fuel tank of the engine. Works fine on them. However, I do need help here from you that have done this before. What I DO NOT want is to introduce mass growing of a seed if it is going to be found toxic when there is one that is non-toxic. I would much rather not kill off the people but continue with humanity in harmony with nature without being an extreme radical or a purist or any other such thing/name. I need help in locating a non toxic Jatropha seed that has the same or similar characteristics of the ones already in production here since the French introduced them for lamp oil a hundred years or so ago. The land has much erosion, the Mekong water level fluctuates daily in the wet season, this indicating lessretention or quicker water run-off due to lack of substantial ground cover. No need for details as it is more likely in archives on every green web-site mentionable. To stop the top soils and thusthe Mekong river mud color, stability and longer run-off periods are needed. This will not happen unless there are steps taken to cover the very many bare hillsides that have been used for slash and burn agricultural practices. I am no spring chicken and as such don't want to go about inventing the wheel again. There is no, as said before, silver bullet. I think inthis case here there just might be such a bullet, to stop the erosion, give subsistence slash and burn farmers an income and better crop yields and slow down the amount of mud thus slightly changing the water color of the 10th largest river in the world. So far no one has been able to satisfythe Jatropha issue in straight language that is not going to take "a journey to forever" to download and read, asevery 30 minutes or so the server drops off line then I need to start the search again I will not get there in this life time. Took 17 goes to get my e-mail downloaded this morning, some coming in more than triplicate due to being logged off and on. I am way too far out of town at this stage for any wireless connection so am stuck with a very old server that will not send to AOL or OZEMAIL and others due to the servers age. This is not in my hands to even consider doing anything to improve. On the up side, this is still better than the postal service systems around the world so in essence this is not a complaint but an indication of a difficulty probably experienced by more than this country. Best to all. Doug- Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha ***No virus was detected in the attachment no filenameYour mail has been scanned by InterScan.***-***Hello JQI think you're having probs with your mail scanner.Here's what Germany is doing with Jatropha Curcas. Please see:http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.ecoworld.com" claiming to be http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367 andhttp://www.d1plc.comMailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.d1plc.com" claiming to be http://www.d1plc.comI've purchased Jatropha seeds and will be attempting to sprout them in the Spring. Waste fryer oil is becoming scarce. The two most sustainable biodiesel feed stocks are: 1. Micro algae 2. Jatropha Curcas.What a strange idea of sustainability, especially since nobody's actually been able to find any biodiesel made from micro-algae yet, other than all the pie-in-the-sky, and some reports from India and elsewhere on jatropha have been far fmk favourable.As Mike Weaver just said, "Iraq, Algae - it's all the same to me", and to me too pretty much. Whether invading Iraq or dreaming about algae
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
but an indication of a difficulty probably experienced by more than this country. Best to all. Doug- Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Keith Addison To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha *** No virus was detected in the attachment no filename Your mail has been scanned by InterScan. ***-*** Hello JQ I think you're having probs with your mail scanner. Here's what Germany is doing with Jatropha Curcas. Please see: http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367MailScannerht tp://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from http://www.ecoworld.comwww.ecoworld.com claiming to be http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367http://www.ecowor ld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367 and http://www.d1plc.comMailScannerhttp://www.d1plc.comMailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from http://www.d1plc.comwww.d1plc.com claiming to be http://www.d1plc.comhttp://www.d1plc.com I've purchased Jatropha seeds and will be attempting to sprout them in the Spring. Waste fryer oil is becoming scarce. The two most sustainable biodiesel feed stocks are: 1. Micro algae 2. Jatropha Curcas. What a strange idea of sustainability, especially since nobody's actually been able to find any biodiesel made from micro-algae yet, other than all the pie-in-the-sky, and some reports from India and elsewhere on jatropha have been far fmk favourable. As Mike Weaver just said, Iraq, Algae - it's all the same to me, and to me too pretty much. Whether invading Iraq or dreaming about algae yields, what's mostly a path of denial because of a drug-addiction problem (gotta guzzle) is unlikely to lead to a glorious future for evermore, which is what sustainable is supposed to mean. I'm beginning to think people either get it or they don't, and that if they don't they won't (or is it the other way round?), but there's this, once again: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuchhttp://journeytofor ever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Best wishes Keith Regards, JQ Cave Creek, Aridzona lres1 wrote: Hello all, Am in a bit of a quandary as to Jatropha nuts for Bio fuel. I have been advised that the non toxic variety of Jatropha found in Mexico produces no oil for relatively simple processing to bio fuel where that of the toxic variety yields oil. Fable or fallacy? Still have found no place to buy the Mexican seeds, is the above the reason why? Thank you to any one that can help make things fly here without long term damage to the environment but using such plants for land stability, the slowing of land erosion and river bank stability as well as for banks for rice terraces and hedges. How much silt does the Mekong river carry each year that could be reduced by such planting? Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha / Toxic Properties / Micro Algae Link
I've read that jatropha is toxic only if taken in sufficient quantity, it is used as a purgative, contains lignites that can be used allegedly as an anti cancer treatment (jatropine), bark as raw material dye and leaves that can be used to feed silkworms. Not bad for a third world agro business crop. Micro algae is being used to clean up coal fired power stations. It grows very quickly and removes most of the contaminants from the exhaust. Please see: http://www.nrel.gov/publications/epubs0303.pdf for more info. I've also read that pressing the dried algae is the preferred method for extracting oil. But, what's done with the toxic remains aren't mentioned. Regards, JQ Keith Addison wrote: Hello JQ I think you're having probs with your mail scanner. Here's what Germany is doing with Jatropha Curcas. Please see: MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.ecoworld.com" claiming to be http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.ecoworld.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.ecoworld.com" claiming to be http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367 and MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.d1plc.com" claiming to be http://www.d1plc.comMailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.d1plc.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.d1plc.com" claiming to be http://www.d1plc.com I've purchased Jatropha seeds and will be attempting to sprout them in the Spring. Waste fryer oil is becoming scarce. The two most sustainable biodiesel feed stocks are: 1. Micro algae 2. Jatropha Curcas. What a strange idea of sustainability, especially since nobody's actually been able to find any biodiesel made from micro-algae yet, other than all the pie-in-the-sky, and some reports from India and elsewhere on jatropha have been far fmk favourable. As Mike Weaver just said, "Iraq, Algae - it's all the same to me", and to me too pretty much. Whether invading Iraq or dreaming about algae yields, what's mostly a path of denial because of a drug-addiction problem (gotta guzzle) is unlikely to lead to a glorious future for evermore, which is what sustainable is supposed to mean. I'm beginning to think people either get it or they don't, and that if they don't they won't (or is it the other way round?), but there's this, once again: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Best wishes Keith Regards, JQ Cave Creek, Aridzona lres1 wrote: Hello all, Am in a bit of a quandary as to Jatropha nuts for Bio fuel. I have been advised that the non toxic variety of Jatropha found in Mexico produces no oil for relatively simple processing to bio fuel where that of the toxic variety yields oil. Fable or fallacy? Still have found no place to buy the Mexican seeds, is the above the reason why? Thank you to any one that can help make things fly here without long term damage to the environment but using such plants for land stability, the slowing of land erosion and river bank stability as well as for banks for rice terraces and hedges. How much silt does the Mekong river carry each year that could be reduced by such planting? Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
Hi Doug, We have Jatropha here. I planted a couple of seedlings in our home garden here but i don't know what typethey are yet. Igot them at a plant nursery nearby. The stuff I have is said to flower after a year. The lady I bought the seedlings from said they have a lot of seeds in their home province of Cebu. From what I gather, Jatropha is endemic in the Philippines and the leaves are used as a poultice for sprains. The seeds are said to be toxic, but there might also be thenon-toxic type around too. We also have them growing wild on our farm in Bukidnon Provincewhere I had our caretaker propagate some cuttings.If you're interested I could follow up these leads. BTW, how do you differentiate the toxic from the non-toxic Jatropha? Where are you located? Regards. Vin Lava Manila, Philippines Message: 1Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:00:26 +0700From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [Biofuel] JatrophaTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hello all,Am in a bit of a quandary as to Jatropha nuts for Bio fuel.I have been advised that the non toxic variety of Jatropha found in Mexico produces no oil for relatively simple processing to bio fuelwhere that ofthe toxic variety yields oil. Fable or fallacy?Still have found no place to buy the Mexican seeds, is the above the reason why?Thank you to any one that can help make things fly here without long term damage to the environment but using such plants for land stability, the slowing of land erosion and river bank stability as well as for banks for rice terraces and hedges. How much silt does the Mekong river carry each year that could be reduced by such planting? Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha / Toxic Properties / Micro Algae Link
JQ, To eat one Jatropha seed from heregives thestomachan extremely sickly feeling with vomitingand a very dizzy head. It is very similar to have ingested 8triplewhisky and sodas. Lasting effects are forno less than 8 hours. (Above ingested by accident by a moderate drinker at age 21). Best to all. Doug - Original Message - From: James Quaid To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 4:46 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha / Toxic Properties / Micro Algae Link ***No virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameYour mail has been scanned by InterScan.***-*** I've read that jatropha is toxic only if taken in sufficient quantity, it is used as a purgative, contains lignites that can be used allegedly as an anti cancer treatment (jatropine), bark as raw material dye and leaves that can be used to feed silkworms. Not bad for a third world agro business crop. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
Here's what Germany is doing with Jatropha Curcas. Please see: MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.ecoworld.com" claiming to be http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367 and MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.d1plc.com" claiming to be http://www.d1plc.com I've purchased Jatropha seeds and will be attempting to sprout them in the Spring. Waste fryer oil is becoming scarce. The two most sustainable biodiesel feed stocks are: 1. Micro algae 2. Jatropha Curcas. Regards, JQ Cave Creek, Aridzona lres1 wrote: Hello all, Am in a bit of a quandary as to Jatropha nuts for Bio fuel. I have been advised thatthe non toxic variety of Jatropha found in Mexico produces no oil for relatively simple processing tobio fuel where that of the toxic variety yields oil. Fable or fallacy? Still have found no place to buy the Mexican seeds, isthe above the reason why? Thank you to any one that can help make things fly here without long term damage to the environment but using such plants for land stability, the slowing of land erosionand river bank stability as well as for banks for rice terraces and hedges. How much silt does the Mekong river carry each year that could be reduced by such planting? Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
Hello JQ I think you're having probs with your mail scanner. Here's what Germany is doing with Jatropha Curcas. Please see: http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from www.ecoworld.com claiming to be http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=367 and http://www.d1plc.comMailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from www.d1plc.com claiming to be http://www.d1plc.com I've purchased Jatropha seeds and will be attempting to sprout them in the Spring. Waste fryer oil is becoming scarce. The two most sustainable biodiesel feed stocks are: 1. Micro algae 2. Jatropha Curcas. What a strange idea of sustainability, especially since nobody's actually been able to find any biodiesel made from micro-algae yet, other than all the pie-in-the-sky, and some reports from India and elsewhere on jatropha have been far fmk favourable. As Mike Weaver just said, Iraq, Algae - it's all the same to me, and to me too pretty much. Whether invading Iraq or dreaming about algae yields, what's mostly a path of denial because of a drug-addiction problem (gotta guzzle) is unlikely to lead to a glorious future for evermore, which is what sustainable is supposed to mean. I'm beginning to think people either get it or they don't, and that if they don't they won't (or is it the other way round?), but there's this, once again: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Best wishes Keith Regards, JQ Cave Creek, Aridzona lres1 wrote: Hello all, Am in a bit of a quandary as to Jatropha nuts for Bio fuel. I have been advised that the non toxic variety of Jatropha found in Mexico produces no oil for relatively simple processing to bio fuel where that of the toxic variety yields oil. Fable or fallacy? Still have found no place to buy the Mexican seeds, is the above the reason why? Thank you to any one that can help make things fly here without long term damage to the environment but using such plants for land stability, the slowing of land erosion and river bank stability as well as for banks for rice terraces and hedges. How much silt does the Mekong river carry each year that could be reduced by such planting? Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas Where
Hi Ires,The India Jatropha is non edible, so the cake is not for animal flodder, the edible specie is comming from Costa Rica or Nicaragua and Mexico, can not help you with adresses. WE buy in India and crop it in Tanzania, the pressed cake and the nutshell we press in briquettes to replace the Charcoal which is the biggest de-forresting, and enviromental, killer fromthe woods in Africa and S.America.If you can not find edible, there is a chemical way to clean the non edible, you will find it on the internet. greetings and a good and healthy new year for allMartin Roozenburglres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Arden and all,Thank you for your suggestion but so far have been unable to locate any place that sells Jatropha seeds from Mexico, they all seem to be from India and am not sure if they are the toxic or non-toxic seeds.The mail system here is very slow. Running the best it does at 20 to 40Kbps, more than not it is in the lower sides. If any one can pint me to an address I would be most grateful. Doug Try to Google for: Jatropha Curcas seeds.I got a couple hundred references as to where to purchase seeds.Good luckArden___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas Where
Arden and all,Thank you for your suggestion but so far have been unable to locate any place that sells Jatropha seeds from Mexico, they all seem to be from India and am not sure if they are the toxic or non-toxic seeds. The mail system here is very slow. Running the best it does at 20 to 40Kbps, more than not it is in the lower sides. If any one can pint me to an address I would be most grateful. Doug Try to Google for: Jatropha Curcas seeds.I got a couple hundred references as to where to purchase seeds.Good luckArden___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas Where
Dear sir, If you are interested from supplies from India we can help you. Please advise. Yours truly, Prakash Chhagani lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry to trouble all but am unable to find a site where I can buy seeds for Jatropha Curcus, the non-toxic varietyfrom Mexico. That is I would like to be able to locate 100 kilograms of such seeds at minimum for propagation into a hedge type stabilizing system for steep hillsides that have been stripped bare and thus need to be rehabilitated.Thank you for what help any one may give. Doug [EMAIL PROTECTED]___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas Where
Try to Google for: Jatropha Curcas seeds. I got a couple hundred references as to where to purchase seeds. Good luck Arden ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Isabel I heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true? Marilyn I can't say what the transesterification might affect in castor oil, but on another list I subscribe to, (clocks) the gentlemen who have cleaned castor oil from the case (preservative? finish?) are currently discussing the method (scraping) and material (solvent) required to try to dissolve the sticky gummy mess that castor oil has left on the case. Also tends to draw the copper out of the brass of the clock works, making the sticky gummy mess green. Perhaps the transesterification would change the characteristics of the oil, but I'd want to try test patches before introducing it to a fuel tank, pump, injectors, etc. doug swanson Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Note: Forwarded Email Message Below: Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is why we posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would say so why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking for advice and if you have reasons to believe that jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about them so as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards. Isabel. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Maybe some one there can help here as well. There are or seem to be two thoughts on the growing of Physic nut/Jatropha Curcas. One is that the Asian variety has a Carcinogenic property producing cells in skin tissue from contact with the plant or some parts thereof. The second is that the type found in Mexico does not have the above character. Is this amyth? Doug - Original Message - From: isabel taylor To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:00 AM Subject: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas ***No virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameYour mail has been scanned by InterScan.***-*** Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is whywe posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would sayso why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking foradvice and if youhave reasonsto believethat jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about themso as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards. Isabel. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Iresearched it - it was feasible from a theoretical point of view - has anyone tried it? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Isabel I heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true? Marilyn Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Note: Forwarded Email Message Below: Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is why we posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would say so why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking for advice and if you have reasons to believe that jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about them so as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards. Isabel. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Jatropha is big in India, even Mercedes has a 9000 hectares plot with cultivated Jatropha, in Senegal is D1 from England with 20.000 hectares and in Tanzania there is Tanlapia with 18.000 hectares.Regards, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Iresearched it - it was feasible from a theoretical point of view - has anyone tried it?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi IsabelI heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true?MarilynBiofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:Note: Forwarded Email Message Below:Hi KeithIt seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a sourceto produce bio diesel from?When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and noneof them was negative.Maybe I missed something!As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel andthat is why we posted our original questions and gave a brief explanationwhy we though it would be best to use jatropha.We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio dieseland to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us toproduce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have readthat jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio dieselfrom.You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing biodiesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha isnot the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would say so whyyou think so, because as I have said before we are asking for advice and ifyou have reasons to believe that jatropha is unsuitable I would like to knowabout them so as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision.Kind regards.Isabel.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
No myth, there is a non-edible specie, growing in the tropics in the wild and a edible specie coming from S-America, both are used a lot, the advantage for the non toxic is that the cake can be used to feed the animals, while the toxic one is used for fertilising, and fuel in the form of brickets,greetings martin Roozenburglres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe some one there can help here as well. There are or seem to be two thoughts on the growing of Physic nut/Jatropha Curcas. One is that the Asian variety has a Carcinogenic property producing cells in skin tissue from contact with the plant or some parts thereof. The second is that the type found in Mexico does not have the above character.Is this amyth?Doug - Original Message - From: isabel taylor To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:00 AM Subject: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas ***No virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameYour mail has been scanned by InterScan.***-*** Hi KeithIt seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from?When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative.Maybe I missed something!As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is whywe posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha.We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would sayso why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking foradvice and if youhave reasonsto believethat jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about themso as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards.Isabel. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Yahoo! Personals___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Hi Isabel Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? I think whether it's a good idea or not depends entirely on the immediate context of where you're planning to grow it. One of the replies you got warned you against the silver bullet approach. There's no magic bullet, the crop that gives the best results is the one that fits the local circumstances best, the more local the better. Like all crops, jatropha curcas has its pros and cons, some of them were also pointed out to you: I grew Jatropha in Ruwa, about 30 km from Harare, and they did quite well there. What I found with them is the seed is very difficult to get out of the outer shell but maybe you can invent or buy a machine to do that part of the job. Have you thought of using Leucaena? -- Jed, Mozambique Jatropha is hardy and has a highish yield but it's also toxic. The seedcake (what's left after pressing) cannot be fed to animals. Why not convert it to biodiesel? It's better in the long run. -- Duncan, South Africa This is also in the archive, along with much else: A critique of Jatropha in India by Ashden Award winner, Pune-based botanist Dr. A. D. Karve, president of the Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) in Maharashtra, India: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg48290.html Our number one choice to manufacture bio diesel from is Jatropha Curcas but we have been unable to obtain seeds locally or from any of the countries surrounding us.(South Africa) Both Jed and Duncan told you where you could get seeds, two different places, did you try them? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! Maybe! Do you really think those two replies are positive? As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is why we posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. I'd suggest you do a little more reading. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. I wouldn't claim that, I think we're all learners. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would say so why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking for advice and if you have reasons to believe that jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about them so as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. I think I've said so many times, and why. The List administration told you the same thing when you joined, and made some good suggestions, but you didn't seem to notice. There is no best crop, if you think there is then you're starting in the wrong place and asking the wrong questions. Too often the result of that is that if anyone benefits it's not those who were intended to benefit, or it's at their expense. IMHO the choice isn't between jatropha and soy, it's more about the kind of project you want to do. Please see: http://journeytoforever.org/community.html Community development http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger How come your reading on biodiesel hasn't revealed to you the disadvantages of soy? Eg.: Apart from our normal interest in Bio diesel in general, we are thinking of planting soybeans to manufacture bio diesel from. Try a good old browse in the list archives to find out why soy biodiesel fails to meet the European biodiesel standard. How're you planning to get the oil out of the soy, with hexane? Hardly village-friendly. Beste Keith Kind regards. Isabel. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Isabel I heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true? Marilyn I can't say what the transesterification might affect in castor oil, but on another list I subscribe to, (clocks) the gentlemen who have cleaned castor oil from the case (preservative? finish?) are currently discussing the method (scraping) and material (solvent) required to try to dissolve the sticky gummy mess that castor oil has left on the case. Also tends to draw the copper out of the brass of the clock works, making the sticky gummy mess green. All vegetable oils do that. Copper catalyses rapid oxidisation and polymerisation. See Copper and SVO: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#copperstudy Castor oil has a lower iodine value than either rapeseed oil or soy (much higher), and is thus more stable - it wouldn't have happened without the copper. Castor oil has excellent lubricity and is a good candidate for biofuel, either biodiesel or SVO. Say Castrol slowly. That's what it started off as. Previous messages: Castrol R or Mobil P, both castor based oils are still the prefered lubricants in the worm/wheel diffs as fitted to Peugeot 203,403,404. Castrol are still selling castor oil for 2-strokes, especially for racing. Best Keith Perhaps the transesterification would change the characteristics of the oil, but I'd want to try test patches before introducing it to a fuel tank, pump, injectors, etc. doug swanson Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Note: Forwarded Email Message Below: Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Hi Isabel I heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true? Marilyn Er... http://snipurl.com/kia1 biofuel - Search results for 'castor' 255 matches Eg: Brasil is going ahead with great biodiesel project in large scale production such as 4 l/day using peanut oil in cane growing areas in south, medium scale plants palm oil in Amazonian areas .Medium scale prodution using castor oil in North east underdeveloped area in Brasil , mostly by federal and state government. The federal goverments Petrobras is going to install big scale plant based on castor plants that wiil be grown on treated waste water from petroleium production based on caster seeds in dry semiarid areas with less developed area with large poor people . - Pannirselvam, 6 Aug 04 ... The B2 fuel that the government will authorise in November will require an additional 150,000 hectares of oilseeds, which will generate a source of income for 30,000 families of small farmers, said Minister of Agrarian Development Miguel Rossetto. Biodiesel is leading to the promotion of the cultivation of castor beans and other crops in semiarid lands in the northeast, Brazil's poorest region. Projects involving family farms in small rural communities are spreading in the region, opening up possibilities of reducing poverty and curbing the rural exodus to urban slums. The Brazilian Company of Agricultural Research (EMBRAPA), a government network of 40 research centres, has carried out studies to help promote the expansion of castor bean cultivation. Biodiesel based on castor oil will not only serve as fuel, but will also be used to generate electricity in isolated rural communities, at least in the northeastern state of Ceará. (END/2004) Sep 1, 2004 http://www.ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=25308 Etc etc etc. Still ain't no best crop. And like jatropha you casn't use the seedcake as feed. Keith Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Note: Forwarded Email Message Below: Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Hello Doug, Isabel, Edible provenances of Jatropha curcas from Veracruz and Quintana Roo States of Mexico were investigated by Makkar, Becker and Schmook of the University of Hohenheim and found to be non toxic to humans after roasting. Phorbol esters, the major toxic constituents of Jatropha, were altogether absent in three of the seed samples and the contents of trypsin inhibitors, phorbol esters, phytate were all lower in the roasted nuts, which tasted like roasted peanuts. However, lectin activity was not reduced by roasting. They concluded that this non-toxic variety could be cultivated in developing countries for their edible oil, and seedcake as fodder. http://www.jatropha.de/schmook1.htm The presence ofa new tumor promoter in theseed oil of JatrophacurcasL has been reported in theJapanese Journal of Cancer Research by Hirota M, M Suttajit et al from Thailand but there is not much else besides this singular study. A debate is now on in the new state of Chattisgarh in India about the advisability of cultivating Jatropha because of this. http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/113032/1/1897 Those interested in Jatropha would do well to visit www.jatropha.de run by the redoubtable Reinhard Henning (who incidentally, used to post to this list- please see archives) andThe Centre for Jatropha Promotion www.jatrophaworld.com The former site provides links to Jatropha developments in Egypt, Ethiopia, Ghana, Madagascar, Mali, Malawi, Namibia, Republique de Cote de Ivoire, Senegal, South Africa, Sudan, Tanzania, Tunisia and Uganda besides other countries. Regards balaji - Original Message - From: lres1 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas Maybe some one there can help here as well. There are or seem to be two thoughts on the growing of Physic nut/Jatropha Curcas. One is that the Asian variety has a Carcinogenic property producing cells in skin tissue from contact with the plant or some parts thereof. The second is that the type found in Mexico does not have the above character. Is this amyth? Doug - Original Message - From: isabel taylor To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:00 AM Subject: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas ***No virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameYour mail has been scanned by InterScan.***-*** Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is whywe posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would sayso why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking foradvice and if youhave reasonsto believethat jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about themso as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards. Isabel. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Hi Isabel I heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true? Marilyn Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Note: Forwarded Email Message Below: Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is why we posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would say so why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking for advice and if you have reasons to believe that jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about them so as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards. Isabel. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas
for a silver bullet plant or the widespread introduction of one that is deemed better might choke out natural flora. Introduction of Jatropha looks like it would have a rather high potential for doing just that, since it grows in such a variety of soil conditions. I just have to look outside when I'm driving down the road to see an example of something similar: huge, huge tracts of nothing but the horrid kudzu vine. Imported into this area for the railroad system, it took hold rather well and thrived. It's also now threatening to choke off local vegetation, and even swallow homes; could Jatropha one day do this? Just my caution and pessimism. Peace -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:We are thinking of planting Jatropha Curcas trees using earthworms tocompost waste, the compost we get from the wormswe will use for the Jatropha trees.This URL has a very good article on jatropha's benefits as a fuel and for other things.http://www.ecoworld.org/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=356http://www.ecowor ld.org/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=356Europe Adopts Biodiesel CAN AN AFRICAN BEAN CRACKEUROPE'S BIODIESEL BLOCKAGE? By Candida Jones A row ofJatropha trees - plants with potential to alleviate fuel shortages Editor's Note: Jatropha is an example of a plant that could begrowneven if it didn't yield biofuel. It is useful for restoring soil,combatting desertification, and providing fertilizer. It requiresminimal inputs of water and grows in extremely poor soil. Any plant that is a cash crop anyway and costs almost nothing togrowcan't be a bad candidate for an economically viable biofuel.(See URL above for the rest.)___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Qumica - DEQCentro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Ps Graduao em Engenharia Qumica - PPGEQGrupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitrio CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - BrasilResidence :AvOdilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 CapimMacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal210 32171557Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular8488145083 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas
Big thing that worries me about anything like this is that the search for a silver bullet plant or the widespread introduction of one that is deemed better might choke out natural flora. Introduction of Jatropha looks like it would have a rather high potential for doing just that, since it grows in such a variety of soil conditions. I just have to look outside when I'm driving down the road to see an example of something similar: huge, huge tracts of nothing but the horrid kudzu vine. Imported into this area for the railroad system, it took hold rather well and thrived. It's also now threatening to choke off local vegetation, and even swallow homes; could Jatropha one day do this? Just my caution and pessimism. Peace -Kurt Kudzu is excellent fodder for grazing animals, high protein, as good as alfalfa and more productive. Good pasture, and it makes good hay. It's a legume and fixes a lot of N,generally a soil improver. It's a deep-rooter and brings up a lot of minerals from the deep subsoil. It produces large, starchy tubers, widely used as food in the East and elsewhere in the tropics. It's also excellent at stabilising steep slopes, and as a general anti-erosion crop. The best way to eradicate it is to turn it into, first, beef, and second, pork. After the cattle are done, the pigs will root the rest out in search of the tubers, manuring as they go, leaving very fertile soil for the next crop. Americans and also Australians seem to hate the stuff, but where I've seen it growing wild in the East it has not been a pest. I've never heard it referred to as a pest here. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: We are thinking of planting Jatropha Curcas trees using earth worms tocompost waste, the compost we get from the worms we will use for the Jatropha trees. This URL has a very good article on jatropha's benefits as a fuel and for other things. http://www.ecoworld.org/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=356http://w ww.ecowor ld.org/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=356 Europe Adopts Biodiesel CAN AN AFRICAN BEAN CRACK EUROPE'S BIODIESEL BLOCKAGE? By Candida Jones A row of Jatropha trees - plants with potential to alleviate fuel shortages Editor's Note: Jatropha is an example of a plant that could be grown even if it didn't yield biofuel. It is useful for restoring soil, combatting desertification, and providing fertilizer. It requires minimal inputs of water and grows in extremely poor soil. Any plant that is a cash crop anyway and costs almost nothing to grow can't be a bad candidate for an economically viable biofuel. (See URL above for the rest.) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas
Hi BellaBok Sounds like a cool plan. You don't have to get the seed from India, you can get it from Zimbabwe at the government nursery in Harare. If you know any people who live in Harare, ask them to go to the government nursery and speak to David in the seed dept. I have seen it growing here in Quelimane, Mozambique, where we are living at the moment and I could probably get some seed down to you if you gave me your address, we have guys from South Africa travelling back and forth all the time. I grew Jatropha in Ruwa, about 30 km from Harare and they did quite well there. What I found with them is the seed is very difficult to get out of the outer shell but maybe you can invent or buy a machine to do that part of the job. Have you thought of using Lucinia (don't know how to spell it). I am not sure of the oil content but I think the tree will do well in your hard conditions. I am sure you have hundreds of goats in that area so it will be good as goat feed as well as giving you oil and you can feed the seed cake to the earth worms as well. Your problem will be keeping the goats out of the plantation while the trees are trying to grow. I can get some of this seed to you as well, it grows here. Good luck with your plan. Jed - Original Message - From: isabel taylor To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:27 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas We are thinking ofplanting Jatropha Curcas treesusing earth worms to compost waste, the compost we get from the worms we will use for the Jatrophatrees. We are think of only planting Jatropha because of the following reasons: 1. Once planted the Jatropha trees bear for approximately 50 years. 2. We have ordered seeds from India andwe intend planting these seeds and once the trees are old enough we take cuttings from them,we will supply the local people with these cuttings so that they will beable to establish small plantations. Apparently Jatropha grows easily from cuttings and the cuttings produce fruitsearlier than Jatropha planted from seeds. 3. Once again we will assist the local people to establish simple hand presses that would be able to press the fruit and the oil once filtered can be used directly in there tractors and stationery engines. We will teach them to start up on normal diesel and then switch over to the Jatropha oil once the engines are warm and to switch back to diesel again before shutting off the engine so that none of the Jatropha oilis left inside the diesel pump and pipes, filter etc.of the engine. People who do not have tractors or engines can sell the oil or the fruit on the open market. 4. The compost that the worms produce for them they can use in their own plantations or gardens or sellon the open market. 5. Oh!Inearly forgot we are up in the north eastern section of South Africa (Limpopo province)the area were we are issupposed to be sub tropical but the last 4 years has been very dry and we have not received any where nearour normal rainfall and this year so far is the worse. Limpopo is the poorest province in South Africa. One advantage we have is that there is large tracts of land that can be used for planting and the quality of the soil generally is not bad, now all we need is for our normal rainfall to return. 6.One of the reason we are thinking of using Jatropha is because we understand it grows in all conditions and will even grow in semi arid regions, it never goes below 8 degrees Celsius here. 7. Locally thereare nosources of used vegetable oils etc. to enable us totry and make bio diesel so we willwait until we are able to produce our own oil and them learn how to convert it to bio diesel. There are many other reasons that we are thinking of going exclusively with jatropha but you must understand that we are only going on what we have read and have no practical experience and would appreciate any input and advice from anyone as we do not want to disappoint the local people, to them it would be a tremendous boast ifthis plan can work. I hope I am allowed to post such a lengthy question and that it is relevant to the list? Greetings BellaBok ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas -
Hi Isabel, 2. We have ordered seeds from India and we intend planting these seeds and once the trees are old enough we take cuttings from them, we will supply the local people with these cuttings so that they will be able to establish small plantations. Apparently Jatropha grows easily from cuttings and the cuttings produce fruits earlier than Jatropha planted from seeds. Mafikeng Biodiesel, together with Invest North West and the Barolong Boora Tshidi Development Company, has established a nursery to grow Jatropha near Mafikeng, I haven't seen it but by all accounts it's impressive. Have a look at http://www.biodiesel.co.za. I'm told that 45000 ha has been made available, oil from this is enough for a 26000tpa plant. Not quite home brewing but lots of jobs in the growing and processing. 3. Once again we will assist the local people to establish simple hand presses that would be able to press the fruit and the oil once filtered can be used directly in there tractors and stationery engines. We will teach them to start up on normal diesel and then switch over to the Jatropha oil once the engines are warm and to switch back to diesel again before shutting Why not convert it to Biodiesel? It's better in the long run. While all you need to know is at http://www.journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html I'd be happy to share what I've learnt about finding raw materials etc. People who do not have tractors or engines can sell the oil or the fruit on the open market. Jatropha is hardy and has a highish yield (http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html) but it's also toxic. The seedcake (whats left after pressing) cannot be fed to animals South Africa imports a large quantity of seedcake annually. I found this http://www.jatropha.de/ and this http://www.ecoworld.org/Home/Articles2.cfm? TID=367 interesting. 5. Oh! I nearly forgot we are up in the north eastern section of South Africa (Limpopo province) the area were we are is supposed to be sub tropical but the last 4 years has been very dry and we have not received any where near our normal rainfall and this year so far is the worse. Limpopo is the poorest province in South Africa. One advantage we have is that there is large tracts of land that can be used for planting and the quality of the soil generally is not bad, now all we need is for our normal rainfall to return. The Agricultural Research Council (ARC) is looking at setting up a biodiesel training spot near Marble Hall - using sunflowers as the raw material. 6.One of the reason we are thinking of using Jatropha is because we understand it grows in all conditions and will even grow in semi arid regions, it never goes below 8 degrees Celsius here. I understand the jury is still out, from a Department of Agriculture and Dept of Water Affairs point of view. There is concern about encouraging the growth of alien plants without doing research on the impact it will have on water resources. I do have an article on this somewhere I'll try and find it and post the link. 7. Locally there are no sources of used vegetable oils etc. to enable us to try and make bio diesel so we will wait until we are able to produce our own oil and them learn how to convert it to bio diesel. I'd encourage you to try and set up you own processor it was a little more expensive but I made my first few batches with virgin oil I bought - off the shelf. There are many other reasons that we are thinking of going exclusively with jatropha but you must understand that we are only going on what we have read and have no practical experience and would appreciate any input and advice from anyone as we do not want to disappoint the local people, to them it would be a tremendous boast if this plan can work. As you will see if you lurk around this list good biodiesel can be made by anyone. I think it's a great, empowering concept for people to become self reliant in a commodity that has always been representative of 'first' world domination. Good luck and if there is anyway I can help, let me know. Regards, Duncan Mills - This mail sent through IDWS Webmail www.idws.com IDWS - South Africa's leader in personal corporate internet services. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha bio-diesel
What is jatropha ? Do you have another name for it ? Do you know the fatty acid composition ? Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: apccin apccin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: [Biofuel] jatropha bio-diesel dear sir can someone tell me about the property of jatropha bio-diesel compare to the rapeseed oil bio-diesel and palm oil bio-diesel? thanks best regards gorvans _ Are you right for each other? Find out with our Love Calculator: http://fun.mobiledownloads.com.au/191191/index.wl?page=191191text ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha bio-diesel
Hi Gorvans The oil from rape seed and palm have glycerol linked fatty acids and hence need methanol or etanol to get way glyerine and make BioD which is an ester of acids with alcohol and thus need reator , catalysts, washing , purification and energy to mix all etc. The oil obtained from Jataropha plant is natural BIOD , that can be used directly by enegine , but need filteration. You can see more informationfrom the following link. Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ I hope you are from India , some very good work on Jataropha oil is being done by IISc Bangalore and alot more see via google and JFT I think India is leading in research in this area . sd Pannirselvam .Ph.D(IIT DELHI) Brasil _ On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:00:07 +0800, apccin apccin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dear sir can someone tell me about the property of jatropha bio-diesel compare to the rapeseed oil bio-diesel and palm oil bio-diesel? thanks best regards gorvans _ Are you right for each other? Find out with our Love Calculator: http://fun.mobiledownloads.com.au/191191/index.wl?page=191191text ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Qumica - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Ps Graduao em Engenharia Qumica - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitrio CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : Av Odilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 Capim Macio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
muchas gracias F. - Original Message - From: FRANCISCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Francisco 1) I am please to share with you my views about Jatropha after a detailed literature research during the last 2 years. We are about to start a work to domesticate Jatropha here in Brasil. 2) Those are the figures I am using for a local project using Jatropha curcas L. *Planting*: 2 a 3 kg of _*seeds *_per hectare.(Approx. 1.300 seeds / Kg.). Assume 50% of seed will not generate healthy plants.** *Potential harvesting ( _seeds_ not fruit ) * *1¼ year*130 kg/ha** *2¼ *520 kg/ ha *3¼*1300 kg/ha *4¼*2600 kg/ha *5¼*4160 kg/ha *6¼ till 30¼ year*6300 kg/ha *Harvesting :* 1.300 a 2.500 kg _*seeds*_ per hectare third year and on *Productivity harvesting ( man hour ):* 2 kg a 3 kg seeds/ men hour there are no mechanical equipment for jatropha yet. Assume will maintain plant height at 2m. at the most. *Oil content*: 5kg a 5,5 kg of seed has 1,25 litres a 1,48 liters of oil. ( 25% up to 35% content of oil )To run calculations be conservative like i am as of now. There are no scientific hard data on this . First large experiment is being conduct by Daimler Benz at Gujarat, India .So far so good. *__**__**__*Oil pressing efficiency: *__* 80 % o the potential oil (1,0 liters a 1,19 liters per hour ) (semi-industrial) Cleaning efficiency: about 90 % Transesterification: about 97% efficient You have to dry the fruit in the shadow. Peel it clean the seed and than press it properly. *Very important to press it properly and degum the pure oil in order to get a good biodiesel at the end. There are few critical tricks.* Pls note my numbers are *conservative not pessimistic not optimistic*. I contacted Africa, Germany ( Gtz, Reinhard at Hoekeheim University, etc. ) India ( Dr. Satish, etc. ) and Nicaragua and came up with above figures. Actual numbers will be better than those prior indicated so you can run a sensitivity for a 10% increase on final number of biodiesel.. Actual numbers will be in this range Saludos y Feliz ao a todos Chico (Francisco Ramos from Rio de Janeiro and Santiago de Compostela ) francisco j burgos wrote: Dear Andrew Lowe: Many thanks, Francisco. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 3:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha francisco j burgos wrote: Dear Crystal: could you please tell me the Jatropha nuts oil production in litres/hect or gallon/acre?. Tks, Francisco. Have a look on Journey to Forever, http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html. The values here correspond with values I've seen from a few other sources. Regards, Andrew -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 3/01/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
Can someone tell me why all the interest in Jatropha? If you look at production of Vegetable oil yields on the Journey to Forever site http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html ; you will see it is far from what Oil of Palm is capable of. What is driving the interest and investment in Jatropha? Is it an issue with the amount of water needed for other oil producing plants? Is it an issue of the Oils and esters characteristics? Is it an issue of available land for the higher oil production plants? I understand for biofuel to be succesful every region will need to produce local oil or other biofuel crops. With this in mind, why aren't the Daimler Benz corporations of the world looking at Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae? Algae has great potential, and it seems is not getting the investment or interest it diserves. Take a look at what Michael Briggs, from the University of New Hampshire has to say about biodiesel from Algae. http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html He also has very interesting view on hydrogen full cells. Read it and you will begin to understand why the current Bush administration thinks hydrogen full cells are a good thing. Best regards to all! --- francisco j burgos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apreciado tocayo. muchas gracias F. - Original Message - From: FRANCISCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Francisco 1) I am please to share with you my views about Jatropha after a detailed literature research during the last 2 years. We are about to start a work to domesticate Jatropha here in Brasil. 2) Those are the figures I am using for a local project using Jatropha curcas L. *Planting*: 2 a 3 kg of _*seeds *_per hectare.(Approx. 1.300 seeds / Kg.). Assume 50% of seed will not generate healthy plants.** *Potential harvesting ( _seeds_ not fruit ) * *1º year*130 kg/ha** *2º *520 kg/ ha *3º*1300 kg/ha *4º*2600 kg/ha *5º*4160 kg/ha *6º till 30º year*6300 kg/ha *Harvesting :* 1.300 a 2.500 kg _*seeds*_ per hectare third year and on *Productivity harvesting ( man hour ):* 2 kg a 3 kg seeds/ men hour there are no mechanical equipment for jatropha yet. Assume will maintain plant height at 2m. at the most. *Oil content*: 5kg a 5,5 kg of seed has 1,25 litres a 1,48 liters of oil. ( 25% up to 35% content of oil )To run calculations be conservative like i am as of now. There are no scientific hard data on this . First large experiment is being conduct by Daimler Benz at Gujarat, India .So far so good. *__**__**__*Oil pressing efficiency: *__* 80 % o the potential oil (1,0 liters a 1,19 liters per hour ) (semi-industrial) Cleaning efficiency: about 90 % Transesterification: about 97% efficient You have to dry the fruit in the shadow. Peel it clean the seed and than press it properly. *Very important to press it properly and degum the pure oil in order to get a good biodiesel at the end. There are few critical tricks.* Pls note my numbers are *conservative not pessimistic not optimistic*. I contacted Africa, Germany ( Gtz, Reinhard at Hoekeheim University, etc. ) India ( Dr. Satish, etc. ) and Nicaragua and came up with above figures. Actual numbers will be better than those prior indicated so you can run a sensitivity for a 10% increase on final number of biodiesel.. Actual numbers will be in this range Saludos y Feliz año a todos Chico (Francisco Ramos from Rio de Janeiro and Santiago de Compostela ) francisco j burgos wrote: Dear Andrew Lowe: Many thanks, Francisco. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 3:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha francisco j burgos wrote: Dear Crystal: could you please tell me the Jatropha nuts oil production in litres/hect or gallon/acre?. Tks, Francisco. Have a look on Journey to Forever, http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html. The values here correspond with values I've seen from a few other sources. Regards, Andrew -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 3/01/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcus
Dear Andrew
After reading your reply to our question, we had a good giggle and
decided that your gooogle search wasn't that good.
Why is that? Did you actually read what I had linked to?
Mr. Tim Heard of the CSIRO Entomology department in Brisbane has
assured us that it is only
Integrated management of bellyache bush (Jatropha gossypiifolia L.)
in north Queensland... that is being controlled.
Ah, as he said, Northern Queensland. That does not include Western
Australia and the Northern Territory. If you read the stuff about
Western Australia, you are not allowed to move either the plant or the
seeds, and also any machinery/livestock that may have been contaminated.
In the Northern Territory, it is listed as a class A/C noxious weed, and
is to be eradicated. It is also NOT to be introduced into the NT. With
these two situations, you are ruling out a vast amount of cheap land. I
did not mention Queensland in my initial reply as your signature
indicated you where in Western Australia.
I don't think the rest of the world would be planting Jatropha Curcus
in such great quantities if
there was any danger of it becoming a pest.
Obviously you are not aware of what a pest is in these cases. The Box
Hawthorn in the UK is a great plant, provides wind breaks, shelter etc
for stock, but in Victoria it is regarded as a pest. In the UK it has
natural preditors, in Victoria it does not, hence it has gone beserk,
with great efforts to eradicate it - good in one place, pest in another.
I have copied the Email that I received from Mr. Tim Heard.
Thank you for your email. I am aware that J. curcas is a potentially
very important source of biofuel. J. curcas is a minor weed only in
Australia so our efforts at biocontrol are only aimed at J.
gossypiifolia, which is a serious weed here and also in many other
tropical countries. We always test our biocontrol agents against
curcas too. If an agent against gossypiifolia attacked curcas we would
not suggest that it be used where there is interest in developing a
curcas industry. The only agent released in Australia so far, the
bellyache bush jewel bug, does not attack curcas at all.
Regards,
Tim Heard
CSIRO Entomology
120 Meiers Rd, Indooroopilly 4068, Brisbane, Australia
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Telephone 07 3214 2843
And this e-mail we recieved today:
Crystal,
We would be happy to look at the possibility of purchasing jatropha
oil from you for use in biodiesel production, depending of course on
the economics. You could either sell the nuts to a commercial
crushing facility, or pay for them to be toll-crushed, or else you
could otherwise install capacity for crushing the nuts on-farm.
Please provide me with your expected annual production volume,
expected sale price per tonne, and your location.
Regards,
Mike Jureidini
Biofuels Consultant
Australian Farmers Fuel (SAFF)
ph 1800 000 609
fax 1300 660 664
[2]www.farmersfuel.com.au
Perhaps if you really want to know about Biodeisel you should be
looking at other countries and learning from them as they are surely
along way ahead of Australia. Try our
suggestion: [3]www.biodieseltoday.com [4]www.jatrophaworld.org
Need we say more?
Just out of interest, who wrote the last couple of lines? Was it you
Crystal or Mike Jureidini? If it was you, then I consider it to be quite
rude. I have provided you with information and it appears that you have
not even read it. In terms of telling me that if I want to know about
biodiesel I should be reading what other countries are doing, then I
could counter asking about your knowledge of photobioreactors. If you
know about these and what they CAN be used for then I think you would
understand that I know a bit about biodiesel. I'll just reiterate what I
said above, good in one place, pest in another.
References
1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
2. javascript:ol('http://www.farmersfuel.com.au');
3. http://www.biodieseltoday.com/
4. http://www.jatrophaworld.org/
In closing, I would like to say that if Tim Heard's statements hold
true all over Australia and I have misread the WA and NT stance on J.
curcas then all well and good. I would be likely to look into it myself,
as I initially said but the fact that it is regarded as a pest gives me
cause for concern.
Regards,
Andrew Lowe
p.s. Could you please better differentiate your comments from the people
you are quoting as it is hard to tell who said what in your email.
--
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Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
Have you tried www.jatropha.org Regards, Edward Beggs B.E.S. M.Sc. Neoteric Biofuels Inc. http://www.biofuels.ca On Jan 4, 2005, at 12:21 AM, crystal wormald wrote: Hello everyone! I want to find out if there is a market for Jatropha nuts (for bio-fuel) within Australia and if so how do I go about planting my own crop so to say? I want to plant htem from cuttings as I have found out that this way has a higher survival rate than that of crops started from seeds. I need to know where I would purchase a Jatropha plant or if there is a supplier who I can purchase clippings from. How does one go about this? Who might one talk to about this? Does anyone have a clue? I've been searching for months now with no success Frustrated~! Crystal, WA ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
could you please tell me the Jatropha nuts oil production in litres/hect or gallon/acre?. Tks, Francisco. - Original Message - From: crystal wormald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 4:21 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Jatropha Hello everyone! I want to find out if there is a market for Jatropha nuts (for bio-fuel) within Australia and if so how do I go about planting my own crop so to say? I want to plant htem from cuttings as I have found out that this way has a higher survival rate than that of crops started from seeds. I need to know where I would purchase a Jatropha plant or if there is a supplier who I can purchase clippings from. How does one go about this? Who might one talk to about this? Does anyone have a clue? I've been searching for months now with no success Frustrated~! Crystal, WA ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Jatropha
www.malifolkecenter.org they have experience and can supply niels Denmark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of crystal wormald Sent: 4. januar 2005 09:21 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Jatropha Hello everyone! I want to find out if there is a market for Jatropha nuts (for bio-fuel) within Australia and if so how do I go about planting my own crop so to say? I want to plant htem from cuttings as I have found out that this way has a higher survival rate than that of crops started from seeds. I need to know where I would purchase a Jatropha plant or if there is a supplier who I can purchase clippings from. How does one go about this? Who might one talk to about this? Does anyone have a clue? I've been searching for months now with no success Frustrated~! Crystal, WA ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
Hello everyone! I want to find out if there is a market for Jatropha nuts (for bio-fuel) within Australia and if so how do I go about planting my own crop so to say? I want to plant htem from cuttings as I have found out that this way has a higher survival rate than that of crops started from seeds. I need to know where I would purchase a Jatropha plant or if there is a supplier who I can purchase clippings from. How does one go about this? Who might one talk to about this? Does anyone have a clue? I've been searching for months now with no success Frustrated~! Crystal, WA Wouldn't touch them with a barge pole - particularly if you're in WA. We, that is Australia, regard them as a weed and there is work being done to wipe them out. I don't know how various government bodies would react to them trying to wipe the stuff out and then you turning around and growing them. Anyway, here are a few URL's that spell out the situation. I had the same thoughts as you, get some dodgy land up north and grow masses of the stuff, but a bit of googling soon brought me back to reality :( http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/programs/app/Weeds/phisicnut_d.htm http://www.weeds.org.au/noxious.htm - search for Jatropha in the Scientific Name field http://www.weeds.org.au/target.htm - look for Jatropha curcas http://www.newcrops.uq.edu.au/listing/jatrophacurcas.htm Regards, Andrew -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 3/01/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
Dear Crystal: could you please tell me the Jatropha nuts oil production in litres/hect or gallon/acre?. Tks, Francisco. Have a look on Journey to Forever, http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html. The values here correspond with values I've seen from a few other sources. Regards, Andrew -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 3/01/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
1) I am please to share with you my views about Jatropha after a detailed literature research during the last 2 years. We are about to start a work to domesticate Jatropha here in Brasil. 2) Those are the figures I am using for a local project using Jatropha curcas L. *Planting*: 2 a 3 kg of _*seeds *_per hectare.(Approx. 1.300 seeds / Kg.). Assume 50% of seed will not generate healthy plants.** *Potential harvesting ( _seeds_ not fruit ) * *1¼ year*130 kg/ha** *2¼ *520 kg/ ha *3¼*1300 kg/ha *4¼*2600 kg/ha *5¼*4160 kg/ha *6¼ till 30¼ year*6300 kg/ha *Harvesting :* 1.300 a 2.500 kg _*seeds*_ per hectare third year and on *Productivity harvesting ( man hour ):* 2 kg a 3 kg seeds/ men hour there are no mechanical equipment for jatropha yet. Assume will maintain plant height at 2m. at the most. *Oil content*: 5kg a 5,5 kg of seed has 1,25 litres a 1,48 liters of oil. ( 25% up to 35% content of oil )To run calculations be conservative like i am as of now. There are no scientific hard data on this . First large experiment is being conduct by Daimler Benz at Gujarat, India .So far so good. *__**__**__*Oil pressing efficiency: *__* 80 % o the potential oil (1,0 liters a 1,19 liters per hour ) (semi-industrial) Cleaning efficiency: about 90 % Transesterification: about 97% efficient You have to dry the fruit in the shadow. Peel it clean the seed and than press it properly. *Very important to press it properly and degum the pure oil in order to get a good biodiesel at the end. There are few critical tricks.* Pls note my numbers are *conservative not pessimistic not optimistic*. I contacted Africa, Germany ( Gtz, Reinhard at Hoekeheim University, etc. ) India ( Dr. Satish, etc. ) and Nicaragua and came up with above figures. Actual numbers will be better than those prior indicated so you can run a sensitivity for a 10% increase on final number of biodiesel.. Actual numbers will be in this range Saludos y Feliz ao a todos Chico (Francisco Ramos from Rio de Janeiro and Santiago de Compostela ) francisco j burgos wrote: Dear Andrew Lowe: Many thanks, Francisco. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 3:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha francisco j burgos wrote: Dear Crystal: could you please tell me the Jatropha nuts oil production in litres/hect or gallon/acre?. Tks, Francisco. Have a look on Journey to Forever, http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html. The values here correspond with values I've seen from a few other sources. Regards, Andrew -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 3/01/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha
Many thanks, Francisco. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 3:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha francisco j burgos wrote: Dear Crystal: could you please tell me the Jatropha nuts oil production in litres/hect or gallon/acre?. Tks, Francisco. Have a look on Journey to Forever, http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html. The values here correspond with values I've seen from a few other sources. Regards, Andrew -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 3/01/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [biofuel] jatropha enzymatic transesterification
can anyone say the methodology of enzyme transesterification of jatropha oil? --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - non-chemical production of biodiesel http://pubs.acs.org/cgi- bin/sample.cgi/enfuem/2004/18/i01/html/ef030075z.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT - Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! India Insurance Special: Be informed on the best policies, services, tools and more. Go to: http://in.insurance.yahoo.com/licspecial/index.html Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] jatropha curcas
x-charset ISO-8859-1Hello Theo We are interested in planting jatropha curcas for producing our own biodiesel and have found quite a bit of information on the net but a lot of it is conflicting. So we have a lot of questions that we need answering and would appreciate any help in this regard. We are also looking for a place to buy seeds, as there doesnt seem to be place where we can purchase in South Africa. 1. How much oil can we conservatively expect per hectare? 2. Do cuttings give a lower yield than seedlings/seeds and does this last over the life span of the tree? 3. What is the ideal spacing for planting and what are the best conditions for growing and planting? 4. How long does it take for the plant to yield nuts and for how long will it produce? 5. How often does the tree bear fruit? 6. Is it necessary to irrigate to get the maximum yield? 7. Must we protect the plant against specific pests and diseases? 8. What can we do with the remains of the nuts after pressing them for oil? 9. How much biodiesel can we expect to get out of processed oil? 1. Why do you want to plant jatropha? High yield? 2. Why do you want to plant a monocrop? Monocrops aren't sustainable - you'd want to produce sustainable biofuels via unsustainable ag methods? Anyway, do an archive search for jatropha (without the quotes), there's a lot of information there: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/ Including this: Jatropha curcas is a good option, but there are many other good options. The idea that it's the best option just doesn't take into account how development projects work, if they work at all, and this type of best technology thinking is one reason they often don't work. Almost any locally grown crop would have more going for it, regardless of Jatropha's yield and general usefulness. That's no reason not to use Jatropha, but it has to be fitted in properly, and once again full local involvement is essential for that to happen. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
RE : Re: [biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Keith: If you throw in the NGOs brigade (who revel in sailing along *any* funding_wind [2]) and the forest department (whose idea of 'social' forestry so far is to plant eucalyptus trees all over India) - I don't know what the outcome is going to be. * That bad? They know there are better ways of doing things, don't * they? Did they learn nothing from the Chipko movement etc? They have learnt the wrong lessons I guess, and have fallen a victim to Ngotitis. Anyway, my cynicism apart, I do know a number of organizations who work *genuinely* at the grassroots level... I am just against *that* crop of NGOs with a buccaneerish attitude whose various cultivars have practically hijacked the 'development' agenda. * So we've funded everything out of our own far-from-deep pockets so * far, not easy. We wanted to develop the project first, then we'd go * for funding, not just asking, but with something valuable to offer, * so we could deal, no need to beg. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to * resist the commercial pressures, nor other pressures, and the project * wouldn't be able to deliver its goods. It seems to be working, we're * nearly at that stage now and can soon start putting our funding * strategy into operation at last. In fact the project has achieved * quite a lot already, without any funding, and without even going * anywhere yet. Please accept my congratulations - and best wishes for the journey... * There's more about that here, and on the next page: * http://journeytoforever.org/community.html * Community development * I can send you the whole thing if you like, it's a good read, it * strengthens your case I think. Thanks Keith, I have already gone thru these pages. In fact, I have immensely benefitted from your j2fe site - what amazing range of information! I have been happily recommending your pages and that Steve Solomon (www.soilandhealth.org) - to anyone and everyone who cares... :-) Thanks once again. Regards: __ramjee. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You and I are told we must choose between a left or right, but I suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down. Up to man's age-old dream -- the maximum of individual freedom consistent with order -- or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. Regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would sacrifice freedom for security have embarked on this downward path. -- Ronald Reagan, October 27, 1964 Ramjee Swaminathan | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.qsl.net/vu2sro/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Corn oil - was Re: [biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Okay, I was referencing the thread. I will contact ADM to see what they are doing with it. =) James Slayden On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Keith Addison wrote: Hi James Hi Keith, There was an interesting quip in your post that I found interesting and had a question on. On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Keith Addison wrote: There's probably room for all of those and more, and they'd do better than an imposed jatropha plantation in the local niches where they're best adapted and people know how to deal with them. There's also the question of multi-use, I doubt New Delhi's thought of that, but it's most important. As we see, for instance, with large-scale ethanol plants using grain, which regard the grain oil as a waste product and throw it away. Huh? Ethanol production using grain throws away oil? I have never heard of this. Please explain or provide links. Weren't we discussing it in the thread about aflatoxin attacking the US corn crop? Anyway, have you ever heard of them using the oil? I hadn't, and I'd been wondering about it... Here it is: 1 Bushel of corn = 3.6 gallons of fuel oil. A typical bushel of corn weighs 56 pounds. 1 bushel provides 2.5 gallons of ethanol fuel, 14.4 pounds of feed, 1.6 pounds of corn oil. (Of course it needn't take 3.6 gallons of fuel oil to produce 1 bushel of corn, nor any at all, but it does.) Funny, with all this crap put about by David Pimentel on the alleged energy inefficiency of ethanol from corn (NOT), I've never seen the corn oil brought into the picture. Different lobbies I suppose, ne'er the twain shall meet. Also this: Now there's some discussion with a chemical engineer in Brazil about it. He's working with a factory making ethanol from corn and producing 30 thousand liters per month of non-refined corn oil, stored or used as fertilizer in the sugar-cane crop, of all things. So it seems the corn oil is indeed regarded as a waste product from ethanol production. They haven't even thought of using it for process heat. If they did, and made biodiesel from the excess (looks like there'd be an excess), that would rather change the energy efficiency of the corn distillation and the economics of both operations. I think we'll be hearing more about this soon. We haven't yet, but we will. I still don't know what people like ADM do. What happens to the corn oil? Keith Thanks again. Best wishes Keith Thanks, James Slayden Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Corn oil - was Re: [biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Ok, until I get through to them, here is a link for the latest news on their oils division: http://www.admworld.com/news/articles/12_16_02_specialty.htm James Slayden On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Keith Addison wrote: Hi James Hi Keith, There was an interesting quip in your post that I found interesting and had a question on. On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Keith Addison wrote: There's probably room for all of those and more, and they'd do better than an imposed jatropha plantation in the local niches where they're best adapted and people know how to deal with them. There's also the question of multi-use, I doubt New Delhi's thought of that, but it's most important. As we see, for instance, with large-scale ethanol plants using grain, which regard the grain oil as a waste product and throw it away. Huh? Ethanol production using grain throws away oil? I have never heard of this. Please explain or provide links. Weren't we discussing it in the thread about aflatoxin attacking the US corn crop? Anyway, have you ever heard of them using the oil? I hadn't, and I'd been wondering about it... Here it is: 1 Bushel of corn = 3.6 gallons of fuel oil. A typical bushel of corn weighs 56 pounds. 1 bushel provides 2.5 gallons of ethanol fuel, 14.4 pounds of feed, 1.6 pounds of corn oil. (Of course it needn't take 3.6 gallons of fuel oil to produce 1 bushel of corn, nor any at all, but it does.) Funny, with all this crap put about by David Pimentel on the alleged energy inefficiency of ethanol from corn (NOT), I've never seen the corn oil brought into the picture. Different lobbies I suppose, ne'er the twain shall meet. Also this: Now there's some discussion with a chemical engineer in Brazil about it. He's working with a factory making ethanol from corn and producing 30 thousand liters per month of non-refined corn oil, stored or used as fertilizer in the sugar-cane crop, of all things. So it seems the corn oil is indeed regarded as a waste product from ethanol production. They haven't even thought of using it for process heat. If they did, and made biodiesel from the excess (looks like there'd be an excess), that would rather change the energy efficiency of the corn distillation and the economics of both operations. I think we'll be hearing more about this soon. We haven't yet, but we will. I still don't know what people like ADM do. What happens to the corn oil? Keith Thanks again. Best wishes Keith Thanks, James Slayden Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE : Re: [biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Hi Ramjee Keith: If you throw in the NGOs brigade (who revel in sailing along *any* funding_wind [2]) and the forest department (whose idea of 'social' forestry so far is to plant eucalyptus trees all over India) - I don't know what the outcome is going to be. * That bad? They know there are better ways of doing things, don't * they? Did they learn nothing from the Chipko movement etc? They have learnt the wrong lessons I guess, and have fallen a victim to Ngotitis. LOL! A new disease of the pocket? Anyway, my cynicism apart, I do know a number of organizations who work *genuinely* at the grassroots level... So do I, mostly under-resourced but they do good stuff anyway. And some foreign ones too doing good work without any fanfare. I am just against *that* crop of NGOs with a buccaneerish attitude whose various cultivars have practically hijacked the 'development' agenda. Much the same as what we keep saying here about the big environment groups in the West as opposed to the local grass-roots outfits. Though the big ones do do good work too, they overshadow the small groups and corner a disproportionate amount of the available funding, much of which would do more good spent at the local level. But as I said, it's a widespread pattern. Big business vs small local operations is often the same. Big's not all bad, but it tends to be clumsy, needs to learn a bit of heed, especially for things local. Nor is small all good, but it's more easily controlled when it gets out of hand. * So we've funded everything out of our own far-from-deep pockets so * far, not easy. We wanted to develop the project first, then we'd go * for funding, not just asking, but with something valuable to offer, * so we could deal, no need to beg. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to * resist the commercial pressures, nor other pressures, and the project * wouldn't be able to deliver its goods. It seems to be working, we're * nearly at that stage now and can soon start putting our funding * strategy into operation at last. In fact the project has achieved * quite a lot already, without any funding, and without even going * anywhere yet. Please accept my congratulations - and best wishes for the journey... Thankyou! - though we're not at all in the clear yet. In six months maybe... * There's more about that here, and on the next page: * http://journeytoforever.org/community.html * Community development * I can send you the whole thing if you like, it's a good read, it * strengthens your case I think. Thanks Keith, I have already gone thru these pages. In fact, I have immensely benefitted from your j2fe site - what amazing range of information! I have been happily recommending your pages and that Steve Solomon (www.soilandhealth.org) - to anyone and everyone who cares... :-) :-) Good! - that's what it's for, and Steve would say the same. But I meant the Oxfam HK stuff, most of it's on our Community development pages, but not all, and it's not at their site anymore. Clear and simple, nice and compact. I'll send it offlist, it's only 10k or something. All best Keith Thanks once again. Regards: __ramjee. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You and I are told we must choose between a left or right, but I suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down. Up to man's age-old dream -- the maximum of individual freedom consistent with order -- or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. Regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would sacrifice freedom for security have embarked on this downward path. -- Ronald Reagan, October 27, 1964 Ramjee Swaminathan | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.qsl.net/vu2sro/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Hello Ramjee Interesting days, these... Aren't they? Interesting post too, thankyou. NEW DELHI: The Government is mulling investment of over Rs 17,500 crore to undertake a comprehensive programme for extracting oil from Jatropha plantations for blending with diesel. [1] I am also told that the Indian Railways intends to use a 10% mix of Jatropha oil in its diesel rail engines to save about Rs. 300 crores (circa USD 60 million) this year(2003) from its fuel bill. However, I am just wondering whether it needs to be only jatropha all the way. The best technology again - topdown-think. I share your reservations. India is a repository of various agroclimatic zones and there are various trees that can yield VOs to a significant extent. For example, across India, one can find various oilseed bearing trees like: Madhuca indica, Pongamia glabra, Cacophyllum inophyllum, Salvadora oleoides, Actinodaphine hookerii, Schleichera trijuga, Hydnocarpus wightiana, Shorea robusta, Vateria indica, Garcinia indica, Mesua ferrea, Mallotus phillip et al... even the common azadirachta indica (neem) and nicotiana tabacum (tobacco) can be explored. There's probably room for all of those and more, and they'd do better than an imposed jatropha plantation in the local niches where they're best adapted and people know how to deal with them. There's also the question of multi-use, I doubt New Delhi's thought of that, but it's most important. As we see, for instance, with large-scale ethanol plants using grain, which regard the grain oil as a waste product and throw it away. I cross-posted a message on jatropha in India from A.D. Karve a couple of months ago, from the Stoves list at Crest: I have conducted field experiments on both castor and Jatropha. I had already mentioned in a previous E-mail, that Jatropha was tested rather widely in India and was given up because it was not found to be as high yielding as the traditional oil crops in India. I do not know how it behaves in other countries, but under our agroclimatic and edaphic conditions, Jatropha produces much more vegetative matter than fruits. At harvest, one has to search for the occasional fruit hidden behind all the foliage that this plant produces. It is found all over India as a wild plant. India has some 25 uncultivated species of trees that yield non-edible oil. The seed of the wild trees is collected by villagers and sold to merchants attending the weekly village markets, but no farmer would ever think of growing them as a crop, because all of them are lower yielding than the cultivated oil plants such as peanut, soybean, sunflower, safflower, sesame, various mustards and rapes, coconut, etc. Among the seasonal oilseeds, hybrid castor is the highest yielding (2.5 tonnes oil per ha), but it is not an edible oil. The highest yield of edible oil, also about 2.5 tonnes per ha, is obtained from coconut. Oil palm, which yields 6 tonnes of oil per hectare in Malaysia, was tested and given up as low yielding under Indian conditions. Yours A.D.Karve http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=17993list=BIOFUEL On the one hand we can be happy that blended VOs are going to be used - but then, by resorting to 'commercial' monocrops of one oilseed bearing species, the benefits that could accrue over a period of time can only be dubious at best, IMHO! Benefits would no doubt accrue, but to all the wrong people, with high costs to the rest. It's possible to do anything badly. If you throw in the NGOs brigade (who revel in sailing along *any* funding_wind [2]) and the forest department (whose idea of 'social' forestry so far is to plant eucalyptus trees all over India) - I don't know what the outcome is going to be. That bad? They know there are better ways of doing things, don't they? Did they learn nothing from the Chipko movement etc? And as for calling SVOs and Blended VOs as 'biodiesel' by the media - please don't get me started on *that*! ;-) Oh no, not again! Same as Southeast Asia with their VO-petrodiesel biodiesel that was breaking people's cars. :-( Nice rant Ramjee. I read it quickly and copied it to give it a more thorough read, but I certainly agree with its drift. A significant number of would be and current beneficiaries are willing to change their foci only to enable them to get fundi ng, even though apparently, the born-again-NGOs would not have *any* expertise on the 'changed focus areas.' This is a manifestation of a typical tendency to work for one's paymasters. And not only that, raising funds becomes an end it itself - and *not* a mere means to a paramount objective. That's so true! I think it's much more widespread than just India and foreign funding, even than development issues, it's almost a general malaise. Science funding is probably worse. It works both ways, funders also have a distorting effect. We haven't accepted any backing or funding for Journey to Forever yet, and that's exactly why.
Re: [biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Hi Keith, There was an interesting quip in your post that I found interesting and had a question on. On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Keith Addison wrote: There's probably room for all of those and more, and they'd do better than an imposed jatropha plantation in the local niches where they're best adapted and people know how to deal with them. There's also the question of multi-use, I doubt New Delhi's thought of that, but it's most important. As we see, for instance, with large-scale ethanol plants using grain, which regard the grain oil as a waste product and throw it away. Huh? Ethanol production using grain throws away oil? I have never heard of this. Please explain or provide links. Thanks again. Best wishes Keith Thanks, James Slayden Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Corn oil - was Re: [biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Hi James Hi Keith, There was an interesting quip in your post that I found interesting and had a question on. On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Keith Addison wrote: There's probably room for all of those and more, and they'd do better than an imposed jatropha plantation in the local niches where they're best adapted and people know how to deal with them. There's also the question of multi-use, I doubt New Delhi's thought of that, but it's most important. As we see, for instance, with large-scale ethanol plants using grain, which regard the grain oil as a waste product and throw it away. Huh? Ethanol production using grain throws away oil? I have never heard of this. Please explain or provide links. Weren't we discussing it in the thread about aflatoxin attacking the US corn crop? Anyway, have you ever heard of them using the oil? I hadn't, and I'd been wondering about it... Here it is: 1 Bushel of corn = 3.6 gallons of fuel oil. A typical bushel of corn weighs 56 pounds. 1 bushel provides 2.5 gallons of ethanol fuel, 14.4 pounds of feed, 1.6 pounds of corn oil. (Of course it needn't take 3.6 gallons of fuel oil to produce 1 bushel of corn, nor any at all, but it does.) Funny, with all this crap put about by David Pimentel on the alleged energy inefficiency of ethanol from corn (NOT), I've never seen the corn oil brought into the picture. Different lobbies I suppose, ne'er the twain shall meet. Also this: Now there's some discussion with a chemical engineer in Brazil about it. He's working with a factory making ethanol from corn and producing 30 thousand liters per month of non-refined corn oil, stored or used as fertilizer in the sugar-cane crop, of all things. So it seems the corn oil is indeed regarded as a waste product from ethanol production. They haven't even thought of using it for process heat. If they did, and made biodiesel from the excess (looks like there'd be an excess), that would rather change the energy efficiency of the corn distillation and the economics of both operations. I think we'll be hearing more about this soon. We haven't yet, but we will. I still don't know what people like ADM do. What happens to the corn oil? Keith Thanks again. Best wishes Keith Thanks, James Slayden Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
