Glad you got it going again! I still haven't installed my pid. It's hard to work on it when everything is working fine. I dread having to replace the heating elements and I still have the original ones in it.
On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey all! > > I ordered a bunch of parts and am getting there. As someone mentioned, it > would seem I have two problems. > > I replaced the PID display yesterday, and the machine heated properly and > the PID display numbers are bright and clear. So that part was clearly > failed. > > I still have some chatter, which I now know is definitely solenoid, so > I'll bet on that being the cause (it's original, eight years old) as > opposed to the new Giemme controller from this summer. Man do I ever NOT > want to tear down the machine again. But the good news is that I don't > have to do it immediately, the machine is working and i just need to switch > it off if the chatter starts and then it resets. > > Will keep you posted, and thanks as always for the help and insights. > > best, > bmc > > Sent from my apple IIe > > On Nov 27, 2015, at 15:11, Ben McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: > > Got it, thanks! > b > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 27, 2015, at 14:32, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: > > You should have it. Good luck. > h > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ben McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Yes, thanks! >> bmc >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 27, 2015, at 13:45, herman dickens <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I can email it if you'd like. >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Sure, thanks. I probably have mine somewhere, but…. :) >>> bmc >>> >>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:33 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I've got a new pid unit in the box that just came in wed from wll and it >>> has an instruction sheet in it that might help. let me know if you need it. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Herman, I think I have that and will look. I agree, find where >>>> the voltage is missing, but I’m not sure what is “normal” for the solid >>>> state relay, etc. Definitely have 120 there, and also at some of the PID >>>> display unit. Need to see where it’s *supposed* to be going but isn’t, if >>>> that makes sense. >>>> b >>>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:13 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> just find out where the voltage is dropping. If you have 114 coming out >>>> of the pressurestat at both point you know it's not that. That takes care >>>> of half the machine. there's a wiring diagram on the brewtus compendium, I >>>> found it after I posted, and it shows how everything is routed. If you >>>> don't have a copy I can email one to you. >>>> Herman >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> OK--making some progress. I was looking at it backwards. >>>>> >>>>> The com/1 wire comes FROM the giemme as you said, Herman--so there is >>>>> 114V at the giemme, and 114V at the com/1 on the pstat. So that part is >>>>> OK. I had the pstat backwards in my mind--so as would be expected, the >>>>> normally closed/2 terminal on the pstat has 114V when steam is heating, so >>>>> that part of the pstat is ok. That red wire goes to the high-limit on the >>>>> steam boiler, and then on to the steam element. The far side of the steam >>>>> high limit has 114V also, so that part is also OK. Since the steam boiler >>>>> heats, I'll call that empirical evidence that the steam element is fine >>>>> (albeit somewhat slow). >>>>> >>>>> When the steam boiler light turns off, the voltage at NC/2 drops to 0, >>>>> as expected, and voltage at 4/NO jumps to 114V. The wire from 4/NO goes >>>>> to >>>>> the solid state relay 1/L1, and when the steam boiler shuts off, 1/L1 goes >>>>> to 118V (assume I'm just seeing fluctuation in line voltage--readings have >>>>> varied from 113-119V throughout). >>>>> >>>>> On the relay, 2/T1 is at 0V, and 3/A1 and 4/A2 are at 118V. The PID >>>>> display is flickering and dimming now independent of the steam boiler's >>>>> operation. >>>>> >>>>> 2/T1 is the wire that goes to the high-limit on the brew boiler, and >>>>> then on to the brew element. So I think Todd's previous email to me is >>>>> correct, that we're looking at either PID or solid-state relay. At least >>>>> I've now traced 120V all the way from the giemme to the relay; from there >>>>> I'll have to see if there is a way to diagnose each part independently. >>>>> >>>>> Still doesn't explain the chatter of the solenoid, unless that power >>>>> comes from the relay or PID, and then if the PID was failing it could be >>>>> sending bogus voltage, i.e. interrupted or whatever. But there is a >>>>> terminal on the giemme for "bomba" (pump) and so I've always thought that >>>>> the pump's power came from the giemme. >>>>> >>>>> Closer, but still puzzling a bit. >>>>> >>>>> b >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:15, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I think that the pstat gets line voltage from the controller and then >>>>> sends it to the steam or brew boiler from there. I think it's a white wire >>>>> and the voltage there should be 120. it should also output the same >>>>> voltage to either the brew or steam boiler depending on which is calling >>>>> for it. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> So riddle me this, Batman--does power come FROM the solid state >>>>>> relay, TO the p-stat--or the other way around? If the former, then seems >>>>>> the relay is the culprit since the PID probably doesn't handle line >>>>>> voltage >>>>>> to the boiler, right? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'll see if I can check input to the relay. >>>>>> >>>>>> b >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:04, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> At the rocker switch is 112.9. At the outer two terminals of the PID >>>>>> with the negative held to a ground bolt on the case is 113.2. Center two >>>>>> terminals of the PID are 4 or less. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good thought on the ground, I'll check. That was the culprit on old >>>>>> BMW motorcycles more times than not... >>>>>> b >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:55, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> You could have a loose wire, but I doubt it. What's the voltage going >>>>>> into the pid? You could also have a bad ground. I've had that happen on >>>>>> other things and it causes the power to be all over the place. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Benjamin McCafferty < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, update. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I turn on the machine, I put a voltmeter across the pstat >>>>>>> terminals. While the steam boiler was heating, terminals 1/com and 4/no >>>>>>> show 60 volts. 1 and 2 of course show nothing. If I reverse wires 2/nc >>>>>>> and 4/no, then cross pstat terminals 1 and 4, I get 120V. Switching >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> back to their normal configuration, once the steam boiler is heated and >>>>>>> switched off, crossing 1 and 2 shows 120V. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now this is interesting. I had suggested to Todd that the >>>>>>> flickering of the PID and the machine-gun thing make me thing of an >>>>>>> under-current situation, i.e. not enough power to make the relay fire >>>>>>> crisply and all the way. I have also notice lately (though it didn't >>>>>>> occur >>>>>>> to me as to why), that my steam boiler is being outrun when I steam >>>>>>> milk. >>>>>>> Lastly, it took forever for the vacuum breaker to seal shut just now; >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> it makes sense since the steam element is only getting 60V. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So now the question becomes, why is reduced voltage happening on >>>>>>> this one wire? It goes to the solid state relay on terminal 1/L1. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> b >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:24, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Likewise. It did occur to me that the pstat relies on a flexible >>>>>>> rubber diaphragm; perhaps that has hardened over time as it sat on a >>>>>>> shelf >>>>>>> for three years. Pinging Chris again; also, he had offered 20%, not >>>>>>> 10%, >>>>>>> my mistake. >>>>>>> Talk soon, >>>>>>> bmc >>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:17, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It seems like mine was around that date too. The second new one says >>>>>>> 4/15. They could have had a bad run of pstats or it could just be bad >>>>>>> luck. >>>>>>> My last pstat lasted almost 8 years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benjamin McCafferty < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks Herman. >>>>>>>> Pstat looks like mfg date of 6/12; shouldn't matter but there you >>>>>>>> go. Chris will give 10% discount on a new one, but still chaps my >>>>>>>> butt. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'll try to pull the giemme cover and watch the relay--don't try >>>>>>>> this at home, kids! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I instinctively don't think the PID or element is bad, but will try >>>>>>>> the p-stat reversal thing and see where that takes me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'll post again in a bit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:07, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ben fwiw it sounds like you have 2 problems. I had the same problem >>>>>>>> with a pstat and it only lasted 2 months. The next one worked fine. >>>>>>>> There >>>>>>>> should be a mfg date on the pstat. It seems like my first one was >>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>> years old and the second one was this year. I was having the same >>>>>>>> symptoms >>>>>>>> with the relief valve but no chatter. The chatter sounds like a relay >>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>> solenoid. Can you pull the cover off and look at the relay while the >>>>>>>> chattering is going on? That might help narrow things down. You could >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> a bad pid or element in the brew boiler causing that not to get up to >>>>>>>> temp >>>>>>>> but honestly I don't work on these things enough to do anything but >>>>>>>> guess. >>>>>>>> I just bought the pid upgrade for my machine but I may hold off on >>>>>>>> installing it for a few more days. Maybe Todd will jump in and give you >>>>>>>> some ideas. >>>>>>>> Herman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Benjamin McCafferty < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hey all! >>>>>>>>> Hope you all had a great thanksgiving and that you're all waking >>>>>>>>> from your food comas. I had more pie for breakfast, but alas, with no >>>>>>>>> espresso. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will be talking to Todd soon about this, but thought I'd also >>>>>>>>> ping the collective and see if anyone has any ideas. Unfortunately, >>>>>>>>> I have >>>>>>>>> a collection of symptoms at this point that I can't make fit a common >>>>>>>>> cause; perhaps they will make sense to one of you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As you may recall, I had quite a bit of trouble this summer, and >>>>>>>>> during that process I replaced: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --Both hi-limit switches >>>>>>>>> --One or both boiler elements >>>>>>>>> --Giemme controller board with the updated one >>>>>>>>> --PID temp probe >>>>>>>>> --Main power switch >>>>>>>>> --New Jaeger pressure-stat >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also, as with this summer's shenanigans, my mom is visiting in two >>>>>>>>> weeks, and dearly loves a good latte. I spent several hundred on >>>>>>>>> overnight >>>>>>>>> charges, parts, etc. while she was here in the summer, and managed 2 >>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>> of lattes for her in her three-week visit. Hoping to get the machine >>>>>>>>> back >>>>>>>>> in action fast! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At the same time I did all that work, I totally disassembled >>>>>>>>> everything, descaled completely, and cleaned the solenoid until it was >>>>>>>>> shiny, i.e. all scale removed, etc. The solenoid functioned fine with >>>>>>>>> power. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The machine worked normally from summer until this week, but with >>>>>>>>> one weird symptom. It would occasionally make a machine-gun noise, >>>>>>>>> i.e. >>>>>>>>> something mechanical opening and closing very rapidly, 5-10 times per >>>>>>>>> second maybe. To me, it is a higher pitched sound than the solenoid, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> sounds like it originates from the area of the giemme controller. >>>>>>>>> Todd >>>>>>>>> suspected the solenoid might be sticking; I was thinking perhaps one >>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>> two relays in the giemme controller was misfiring (not sure that they >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> even relays--but I'm referring to the two small sets of contacts in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> giemme that look like points from a points-and-condensor ignition). >>>>>>>>> At its >>>>>>>>> worst, this symptom would continue for 10+ seconds and I'd shut the >>>>>>>>> machine >>>>>>>>> off and back on; it would seem to "reset" and stop. At its best, it >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> last for a few seconds and stop on its own. It clearly is related to >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> the machine goes to refill the steam boiler, i.e. when closing the >>>>>>>>> steam >>>>>>>>> wand, dumping hot water boiler, etc. is when this would happen, very >>>>>>>>> intermittently. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As of a week ago, the machine-gun thing got really bad, i.e. it >>>>>>>>> happens 4-5 times while steaming enough milk for a latte, etc. When >>>>>>>>> shutting off the steam wand, when it goes to refill, the machine-gun >>>>>>>>> noise >>>>>>>>> happens every time and frequently does not stop. As the machine sits >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> idle and occasionally refills the steam boiler, it also makes the >>>>>>>>> noise >>>>>>>>> every time. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At this point, it would seem to me that the culprit would be the >>>>>>>>> giemme or the solenoid, but wait, there's more... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A few other symptoms have happened in the past week, which really >>>>>>>>> confuse the issue for me, because I admittedly don't know exactly how >>>>>>>>> electricity flows through the machine: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --The Jaeger P-stat has allowed the machine to over-pressure about >>>>>>>>> 3 times in 5 months, causing the blowoff to activate. No way this >>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>> be happening with a new p-stat, but otherwise it has been normal. As >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> aside, Chris Coffee will not warrant the p-stat, stating 30 days is >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> warranty from that manufacturer. So I have a 90-day-old failing part >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> won't be covered. Unexpected. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --The PID display (which I have set to 204F) has stayed at 105F >>>>>>>>> for several hours each morning for about four days in a row, and then >>>>>>>>> later >>>>>>>>> in the day, has heated to 204F. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --As of two days ago, the PID heated the brew boiler to 105F and >>>>>>>>> stayed there all day, never heating to 204F. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --Earlier this week, one day only, the PID display was blank when >>>>>>>>> the machine was on. It remained blank for about an hour, then >>>>>>>>> suddenly lit >>>>>>>>> up. It showed 105F. Every time the steam boiler fired, the PID >>>>>>>>> screen >>>>>>>>> would flicker and get really dim, almost not visible. Then it would >>>>>>>>> brighten right back up when the steam boiler turned off. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --Most of the time (and this is an old thing, maybe normal), the >>>>>>>>> PID numbers and "dot" will blink every few seconds, i.e. they go off >>>>>>>>> for a >>>>>>>>> split second, and then come back on. The dot at this point will not >>>>>>>>> stay >>>>>>>>> on for more than a split second also, i.e. it never shows the boiler >>>>>>>>> calling for heat once the steam boiler is off. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --The same day the PID display was blank and dim, there was a >>>>>>>>> single time where the steam boiler filled, and then shut off (solenoid >>>>>>>>> clicked), but the pump kept running indefinitely. I finally had to >>>>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>>> off the machine to make it stop. After power cycling the machine, >>>>>>>>> the pump >>>>>>>>> filled and stopped normally again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --At this time, the steam boiler fills and heats normally, with >>>>>>>>> the exception of the machine-gun noise, which happens almost every >>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> OK--I think that's it. I'm sorry if someone has told me this >>>>>>>>> before, but I'm trying to understand first how electricity travels in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> machine. So far, the only thing that seems like a common point to >>>>>>>>> all of >>>>>>>>> these symptoms is the giemme controller, but that's based on my >>>>>>>>> limited >>>>>>>>> understanding. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How I *think* it works is this: main power switch sends current >>>>>>>>> to the giemme, which sends current to the pump and to the pressure >>>>>>>>> stat >>>>>>>>> (via the two "relays" in the giemme?). If the steam boiler is not up >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> temp, the p-stat sends current to it until it is at pressure, then it >>>>>>>>> sends >>>>>>>>> current onward to the PID. The PID sends that onwards in bursts via >>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>> solid-state relay to heat the brew boiler. Meanwhile, the giemme >>>>>>>>> sends >>>>>>>>> current to the pump (via a relay?) and to the solenoid, so the >>>>>>>>> solenoid >>>>>>>>> closes, diverting water to the steam boiler, and the steam boiler >>>>>>>>> fills. >>>>>>>>> When water touches the probe in the steam boiler, it essentially >>>>>>>>> shorts out >>>>>>>>> and stops the pump, and the solenoid opens, sending water line >>>>>>>>> pressure to >>>>>>>>> the brew boiler, which is held back by the group. When the lever is >>>>>>>>> lifted, the lever mechanically opens the group to let water through, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the switch behind the lever sends power to the pump to cause it to >>>>>>>>> run and >>>>>>>>> push water under pressure through the group. If, while pulling a >>>>>>>>> shot, the >>>>>>>>> steam boiler level drops below its probe, the solenoid closes and >>>>>>>>> interrupts water to the brew boiler/group until the steam boiler is >>>>>>>>> filled >>>>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does that sound about right? Again, I would really like to >>>>>>>>> understand this whole circuit, especially the giemme controller and >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> the two mechanical contacts are for on that board. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --Also, my PID is about 5-6 years old by now; what is the expected >>>>>>>>> service life of those? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --Can I safely test the PID by reversing NO/NC terminals on the >>>>>>>>> P-stat? Wouldn't that have the effect of prioritizing the PID first? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> OK, I'll stop. Enjoy your leftovers, and have a good coffee for >>>>>>>>> me! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> best, >>>>>>>>> Ben McC >>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at 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