I can email it if you'd like. On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sure, thanks. I probably have mine somewhere, but…. :) > bmc > > On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:33 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> > wrote: > > I've got a new pid unit in the box that just came in wed from wll and it > has an instruction sheet in it that might help. let me know if you need it. > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Thanks Herman, I think I have that and will look. I agree, find where >> the voltage is missing, but I’m not sure what is “normal” for the solid >> state relay, etc. Definitely have 120 there, and also at some of the PID >> display unit. Need to see where it’s *supposed* to be going but isn’t, if >> that makes sense. >> b >> >> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:13 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> just find out where the voltage is dropping. If you have 114 coming out >> of the pressurestat at both point you know it's not that. That takes care >> of half the machine. there's a wiring diagram on the brewtus compendium, I >> found it after I posted, and it shows how everything is routed. If you >> don't have a copy I can email one to you. >> Herman >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> OK--making some progress. I was looking at it backwards. >>> >>> The com/1 wire comes FROM the giemme as you said, Herman--so there is >>> 114V at the giemme, and 114V at the com/1 on the pstat. So that part is >>> OK. I had the pstat backwards in my mind--so as would be expected, the >>> normally closed/2 terminal on the pstat has 114V when steam is heating, so >>> that part of the pstat is ok. That red wire goes to the high-limit on the >>> steam boiler, and then on to the steam element. The far side of the steam >>> high limit has 114V also, so that part is also OK. Since the steam boiler >>> heats, I'll call that empirical evidence that the steam element is fine >>> (albeit somewhat slow). >>> >>> When the steam boiler light turns off, the voltage at NC/2 drops to 0, >>> as expected, and voltage at 4/NO jumps to 114V. The wire from 4/NO goes to >>> the solid state relay 1/L1, and when the steam boiler shuts off, 1/L1 goes >>> to 118V (assume I'm just seeing fluctuation in line voltage--readings have >>> varied from 113-119V throughout). >>> >>> On the relay, 2/T1 is at 0V, and 3/A1 and 4/A2 are at 118V. The PID >>> display is flickering and dimming now independent of the steam boiler's >>> operation. >>> >>> 2/T1 is the wire that goes to the high-limit on the brew boiler, and >>> then on to the brew element. So I think Todd's previous email to me is >>> correct, that we're looking at either PID or solid-state relay. At least >>> I've now traced 120V all the way from the giemme to the relay; from there >>> I'll have to see if there is a way to diagnose each part independently. >>> >>> Still doesn't explain the chatter of the solenoid, unless that power >>> comes from the relay or PID, and then if the PID was failing it could be >>> sending bogus voltage, i.e. interrupted or whatever. But there is a >>> terminal on the giemme for "bomba" (pump) and so I've always thought that >>> the pump's power came from the giemme. >>> >>> Closer, but still puzzling a bit. >>> >>> b >>> >>> Sent from my apple IIe >>> >>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:15, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I think that the pstat gets line voltage from the controller and then >>> sends it to the steam or brew boiler from there. I think it's a white wire >>> and the voltage there should be 120. it should also output the same >>> voltage to either the brew or steam boiler depending on which is calling >>> for it. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> So riddle me this, Batman--does power come FROM the solid state relay, >>>> TO the p-stat--or the other way around? If the former, then seems the >>>> relay is the culprit since the PID probably doesn't handle line voltage to >>>> the boiler, right? >>>> >>>> I'll see if I can check input to the relay. >>>> >>>> b >>>> >>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:04, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> At the rocker switch is 112.9. At the outer two terminals of the PID >>>> with the negative held to a ground bolt on the case is 113.2. Center two >>>> terminals of the PID are 4 or less. >>>> >>>> Good thought on the ground, I'll check. That was the culprit on old >>>> BMW motorcycles more times than not... >>>> b >>>> >>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:55, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> You could have a loose wire, but I doubt it. What's the voltage going >>>> into the pid? You could also have a bad ground. I've had that happen on >>>> other things and it causes the power to be all over the place. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> OK, update. >>>>> >>>>> When I turn on the machine, I put a voltmeter across the pstat >>>>> terminals. While the steam boiler was heating, terminals 1/com and 4/no >>>>> show 60 volts. 1 and 2 of course show nothing. If I reverse wires 2/nc >>>>> and 4/no, then cross pstat terminals 1 and 4, I get 120V. Switching them >>>>> back to their normal configuration, once the steam boiler is heated and >>>>> switched off, crossing 1 and 2 shows 120V. >>>>> >>>>> Now this is interesting. I had suggested to Todd that the flickering >>>>> of the PID and the machine-gun thing make me thing of an under-current >>>>> situation, i.e. not enough power to make the relay fire crisply and all >>>>> the >>>>> way. I have also notice lately (though it didn't occur to me as to why), >>>>> that my steam boiler is being outrun when I steam milk. Lastly, it took >>>>> forever for the vacuum breaker to seal shut just now; and it makes sense >>>>> since the steam element is only getting 60V. >>>>> >>>>> So now the question becomes, why is reduced voltage happening on this >>>>> one wire? It goes to the solid state relay on terminal 1/L1. >>>>> >>>>> b >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:24, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Likewise. It did occur to me that the pstat relies on a flexible >>>>> rubber diaphragm; perhaps that has hardened over time as it sat on a shelf >>>>> for three years. Pinging Chris again; also, he had offered 20%, not 10%, >>>>> my mistake. >>>>> Talk soon, >>>>> bmc >>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:17, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It seems like mine was around that date too. The second new one says >>>>> 4/15. They could have had a bad run of pstats or it could just be bad >>>>> luck. >>>>> My last pstat lasted almost 8 years. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Herman. >>>>>> Pstat looks like mfg date of 6/12; shouldn't matter but there you >>>>>> go. Chris will give 10% discount on a new one, but still chaps my butt. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'll try to pull the giemme cover and watch the relay--don't try this >>>>>> at home, kids! >>>>>> >>>>>> I instinctively don't think the PID or element is bad, but will try >>>>>> the p-stat reversal thing and see where that takes me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'll post again in a bit. >>>>>> >>>>>> b >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:07, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Ben fwiw it sounds like you have 2 problems. I had the same problem >>>>>> with a pstat and it only lasted 2 months. The next one worked fine. There >>>>>> should be a mfg date on the pstat. It seems like my first one was several >>>>>> years old and the second one was this year. I was having the same >>>>>> symptoms >>>>>> with the relief valve but no chatter. The chatter sounds like a relay or >>>>>> a >>>>>> solenoid. Can you pull the cover off and look at the relay while the >>>>>> chattering is going on? That might help narrow things down. You could >>>>>> have >>>>>> a bad pid or element in the brew boiler causing that not to get up to >>>>>> temp >>>>>> but honestly I don't work on these things enough to do anything but >>>>>> guess. >>>>>> I just bought the pid upgrade for my machine but I may hold off on >>>>>> installing it for a few more days. Maybe Todd will jump in and give you >>>>>> some ideas. >>>>>> Herman >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Benjamin McCafferty < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey all! >>>>>>> Hope you all had a great thanksgiving and that you're all waking >>>>>>> from your food comas. I had more pie for breakfast, but alas, with no >>>>>>> espresso. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will be talking to Todd soon about this, but thought I'd also ping >>>>>>> the collective and see if anyone has any ideas. Unfortunately, I have a >>>>>>> collection of symptoms at this point that I can't make fit a common >>>>>>> cause; >>>>>>> perhaps they will make sense to one of you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As you may recall, I had quite a bit of trouble this summer, and >>>>>>> during that process I replaced: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Both hi-limit switches >>>>>>> --One or both boiler elements >>>>>>> --Giemme controller board with the updated one >>>>>>> --PID temp probe >>>>>>> --Main power switch >>>>>>> --New Jaeger pressure-stat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, as with this summer's shenanigans, my mom is visiting in two >>>>>>> weeks, and dearly loves a good latte. I spent several hundred on >>>>>>> overnight >>>>>>> charges, parts, etc. while she was here in the summer, and managed 2 >>>>>>> days >>>>>>> of lattes for her in her three-week visit. Hoping to get the machine >>>>>>> back >>>>>>> in action fast! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the same time I did all that work, I totally disassembled >>>>>>> everything, descaled completely, and cleaned the solenoid until it was >>>>>>> shiny, i.e. all scale removed, etc. The solenoid functioned fine with >>>>>>> power. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The machine worked normally from summer until this week, but with >>>>>>> one weird symptom. It would occasionally make a machine-gun noise, i.e. >>>>>>> something mechanical opening and closing very rapidly, 5-10 times per >>>>>>> second maybe. To me, it is a higher pitched sound than the solenoid, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> sounds like it originates from the area of the giemme controller. Todd >>>>>>> suspected the solenoid might be sticking; I was thinking perhaps one of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> two relays in the giemme controller was misfiring (not sure that they >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> even relays--but I'm referring to the two small sets of contacts in the >>>>>>> giemme that look like points from a points-and-condensor ignition). At >>>>>>> its >>>>>>> worst, this symptom would continue for 10+ seconds and I'd shut the >>>>>>> machine >>>>>>> off and back on; it would seem to "reset" and stop. At its best, it >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> last for a few seconds and stop on its own. It clearly is related to >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> the machine goes to refill the steam boiler, i.e. when closing the steam >>>>>>> wand, dumping hot water boiler, etc. is when this would happen, very >>>>>>> intermittently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As of a week ago, the machine-gun thing got really bad, i.e. it >>>>>>> happens 4-5 times while steaming enough milk for a latte, etc. When >>>>>>> shutting off the steam wand, when it goes to refill, the machine-gun >>>>>>> noise >>>>>>> happens every time and frequently does not stop. As the machine sits at >>>>>>> idle and occasionally refills the steam boiler, it also makes the noise >>>>>>> every time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At this point, it would seem to me that the culprit would be the >>>>>>> giemme or the solenoid, but wait, there's more... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A few other symptoms have happened in the past week, which really >>>>>>> confuse the issue for me, because I admittedly don't know exactly how >>>>>>> electricity flows through the machine: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --The Jaeger P-stat has allowed the machine to over-pressure about 3 >>>>>>> times in 5 months, causing the blowoff to activate. No way this should >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> happening with a new p-stat, but otherwise it has been normal. As an >>>>>>> aside, Chris Coffee will not warrant the p-stat, stating 30 days is the >>>>>>> warranty from that manufacturer. So I have a 90-day-old failing part >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> won't be covered. Unexpected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --The PID display (which I have set to 204F) has stayed at 105F for >>>>>>> several hours each morning for about four days in a row, and then later >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the day, has heated to 204F. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --As of two days ago, the PID heated the brew boiler to 105F and >>>>>>> stayed there all day, never heating to 204F. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Earlier this week, one day only, the PID display was blank when >>>>>>> the machine was on. It remained blank for about an hour, then suddenly >>>>>>> lit >>>>>>> up. It showed 105F. Every time the steam boiler fired, the PID screen >>>>>>> would flicker and get really dim, almost not visible. Then it would >>>>>>> brighten right back up when the steam boiler turned off. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Most of the time (and this is an old thing, maybe normal), the PID >>>>>>> numbers and "dot" will blink every few seconds, i.e. they go off for a >>>>>>> split second, and then come back on. The dot at this point will not >>>>>>> stay >>>>>>> on for more than a split second also, i.e. it never shows the boiler >>>>>>> calling for heat once the steam boiler is off. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --The same day the PID display was blank and dim, there was a single >>>>>>> time where the steam boiler filled, and then shut off (solenoid >>>>>>> clicked), >>>>>>> but the pump kept running indefinitely. I finally had to turn off the >>>>>>> machine to make it stop. After power cycling the machine, the pump >>>>>>> filled >>>>>>> and stopped normally again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --At this time, the steam boiler fills and heats normally, with the >>>>>>> exception of the machine-gun noise, which happens almost every time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK--I think that's it. I'm sorry if someone has told me this >>>>>>> before, but I'm trying to understand first how electricity travels in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> machine. So far, the only thing that seems like a common point to all >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> these symptoms is the giemme controller, but that's based on my limited >>>>>>> understanding. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How I *think* it works is this: main power switch sends current to >>>>>>> the giemme, which sends current to the pump and to the pressure stat >>>>>>> (via >>>>>>> the two "relays" in the giemme?). If the steam boiler is not up to >>>>>>> temp, >>>>>>> the p-stat sends current to it until it is at pressure, then it sends >>>>>>> current onward to the PID. The PID sends that onwards in bursts via its >>>>>>> solid-state relay to heat the brew boiler. Meanwhile, the giemme sends >>>>>>> current to the pump (via a relay?) and to the solenoid, so the solenoid >>>>>>> closes, diverting water to the steam boiler, and the steam boiler fills. >>>>>>> When water touches the probe in the steam boiler, it essentially shorts >>>>>>> out >>>>>>> and stops the pump, and the solenoid opens, sending water line pressure >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the brew boiler, which is held back by the group. When the lever is >>>>>>> lifted, the lever mechanically opens the group to let water through, and >>>>>>> the switch behind the lever sends power to the pump to cause it to run >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> push water under pressure through the group. If, while pulling a shot, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> steam boiler level drops below its probe, the solenoid closes and >>>>>>> interrupts water to the brew boiler/group until the steam boiler is >>>>>>> filled >>>>>>> again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does that sound about right? Again, I would really like to >>>>>>> understand this whole circuit, especially the giemme controller and what >>>>>>> the two mechanical contacts are for on that board. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Also, my PID is about 5-6 years old by now; what is the expected >>>>>>> service life of those? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Can I safely test the PID by reversing NO/NC terminals on the >>>>>>> P-stat? Wouldn't that have the effect of prioritizing the PID first? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, I'll stop. Enjoy your leftovers, and have a good coffee for me! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> best, >>>>>>> Ben McC >>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>> For more options, visit 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