Yes, thanks! bmc Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 27, 2015, at 13:45, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: > > I can email it if you'd like. > >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> Sure, thanks. I probably have mine somewhere, but…. :) >> bmc >> >>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:33 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I've got a new pid unit in the box that just came in wed from wll and it >>> has an instruction sheet in it that might help. let me know if you need it. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> Thanks Herman, I think I have that and will look. I agree, find where the >>>> voltage is missing, but I’m not sure what is “normal” for the solid state >>>> relay, etc. Definitely have 120 there, and also at some of the PID >>>> display unit. Need to see where it’s *supposed* to be going but isn’t, if >>>> that makes sense. >>>> b >>>> >>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:13 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> just find out where the voltage is dropping. If you have 114 coming out >>>>> of the pressurestat at both point you know it's not that. That takes care >>>>> of half the machine. there's a wiring diagram on the brewtus compendium, >>>>> I found it after I posted, and it shows how everything is routed. If you >>>>> don't have a copy I can email one to you. >>>>> Herman >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> OK--making some progress. I was looking at it backwards. >>>>>> >>>>>> The com/1 wire comes FROM the giemme as you said, Herman--so there is >>>>>> 114V at the giemme, and 114V at the com/1 on the pstat. So that part is >>>>>> OK. I had the pstat backwards in my mind--so as would be expected, the >>>>>> normally closed/2 terminal on the pstat has 114V when steam is heating, >>>>>> so that part of the pstat is ok. That red wire goes to the high-limit >>>>>> on the steam boiler, and then on to the steam element. The far side of >>>>>> the steam high limit has 114V also, so that part is also OK. Since the >>>>>> steam boiler heats, I'll call that empirical evidence that the steam >>>>>> element is fine (albeit somewhat slow). >>>>>> >>>>>> When the steam boiler light turns off, the voltage at NC/2 drops to 0, >>>>>> as expected, and voltage at 4/NO jumps to 114V. The wire from 4/NO goes >>>>>> to the solid state relay 1/L1, and when the steam boiler shuts off, 1/L1 >>>>>> goes to 118V (assume I'm just seeing fluctuation in line >>>>>> voltage--readings have varied from 113-119V throughout). >>>>>> >>>>>> On the relay, 2/T1 is at 0V, and 3/A1 and 4/A2 are at 118V. The PID >>>>>> display is flickering and dimming now independent of the steam boiler's >>>>>> operation. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2/T1 is the wire that goes to the high-limit on the brew boiler, and >>>>>> then on to the brew element. So I think Todd's previous email to me is >>>>>> correct, that we're looking at either PID or solid-state relay. At >>>>>> least I've now traced 120V all the way from the giemme to the relay; >>>>>> from there I'll have to see if there is a way to diagnose each part >>>>>> independently. >>>>>> >>>>>> Still doesn't explain the chatter of the solenoid, unless that power >>>>>> comes from the relay or PID, and then if the PID was failing it could be >>>>>> sending bogus voltage, i.e. interrupted or whatever. But there is a >>>>>> terminal on the giemme for "bomba" (pump) and so I've always thought >>>>>> that the pump's power came from the giemme. >>>>>> >>>>>> Closer, but still puzzling a bit. >>>>>> >>>>>> b >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:15, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think that the pstat gets line voltage from the controller and then >>>>>>> sends it to the steam or brew boiler from there. I think it's a white >>>>>>> wire and the voltage there should be 120. it should also output the >>>>>>> same voltage to either the brew or steam boiler depending on which is >>>>>>> calling for it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> So riddle me this, Batman--does power come FROM the solid state relay, >>>>>>>> TO the p-stat--or the other way around? If the former, then seems the >>>>>>>> relay is the culprit since the PID probably doesn't handle line >>>>>>>> voltage to the boiler, right? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'll see if I can check input to the relay. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:04, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At the rocker switch is 112.9. At the outer two terminals of the PID >>>>>>>>> with the negative held to a ground bolt on the case is 113.2. Center >>>>>>>>> two terminals of the PID are 4 or less. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good thought on the ground, I'll check. That was the culprit on old >>>>>>>>> BMW motorcycles more times than not... >>>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:55, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You could have a loose wire, but I doubt it. What's the voltage >>>>>>>>>> going into the pid? You could also have a bad ground. I've had that >>>>>>>>>> happen on other things and it causes the power to be all over the >>>>>>>>>> place. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> OK, update. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> When I turn on the machine, I put a voltmeter across the pstat >>>>>>>>>>> terminals. While the steam boiler was heating, terminals 1/com and >>>>>>>>>>> 4/no show 60 volts. 1 and 2 of course show nothing. If I reverse >>>>>>>>>>> wires 2/nc and 4/no, then cross pstat terminals 1 and 4, I get >>>>>>>>>>> 120V. Switching them back to their normal configuration, once the >>>>>>>>>>> steam boiler is heated and switched off, crossing 1 and 2 shows >>>>>>>>>>> 120V. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Now this is interesting. I had suggested to Todd that the >>>>>>>>>>> flickering of the PID and the machine-gun thing make me thing of an >>>>>>>>>>> under-current situation, i.e. not enough power to make the relay >>>>>>>>>>> fire crisply and all the way. I have also notice lately (though it >>>>>>>>>>> didn't occur to me as to why), that my steam boiler is being outrun >>>>>>>>>>> when I steam milk. Lastly, it took forever for the vacuum breaker >>>>>>>>>>> to seal shut just now; and it makes sense since the steam element >>>>>>>>>>> is only getting 60V. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So now the question becomes, why is reduced voltage happening on >>>>>>>>>>> this one wire? It goes to the solid state relay on terminal 1/L1. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:24, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise. It did occur to me that the pstat relies on a flexible >>>>>>>>>>>> rubber diaphragm; perhaps that has hardened over time as it sat on >>>>>>>>>>>> a shelf for three years. Pinging Chris again; also, he had >>>>>>>>>>>> offered 20%, not 10%, my mistake. >>>>>>>>>>>> Talk soon, >>>>>>>>>>>> bmc >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:17, herman dickens >>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems like mine was around that date too. The second new one >>>>>>>>>>>>> says 4/15. They could have had a bad run of pstats or it could >>>>>>>>>>>>> just be bad luck. My last pstat lasted almost 8 years. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Herman. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pstat looks like mfg date of 6/12; shouldn't matter but there >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go. Chris will give 10% discount on a new one, but still >>>>>>>>>>>>>> chaps my butt. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll try to pull the giemme cover and watch the relay--don't try >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this at home, kids! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I instinctively don't think the PID or element is bad, but will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> try the p-stat reversal thing and see where that takes me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll post again in a bit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:07, herman dickens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben fwiw it sounds like you have 2 problems. I had the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with a pstat and it only lasted 2 months. The next one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked fine. There should be a mfg date on the pstat. It seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like my first one was several years old and the second one was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this year. I was having the same symptoms with the relief valve >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but no chatter. The chatter sounds like a relay or a solenoid. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you pull the cover off and look at the relay while the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chattering is going on? That might help narrow things down. You >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could have a bad pid or element in the brew boiler causing that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not to get up to temp but honestly I don't work on these things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to do anything but guess. I just bought the pid upgrade >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for my machine but I may hold off on installing it for a few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more days. Maybe Todd will jump in and give you some ideas. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Herman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey all! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope you all had a great thanksgiving and that you're all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waking from your food comas. I had more pie for breakfast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but alas, with no espresso. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will be talking to Todd soon about this, but thought I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also ping the collective and see if anyone has any ideas. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I have a collection of symptoms at this point >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that I can't make fit a common cause; perhaps they will make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense to one of you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you may recall, I had quite a bit of trouble this summer, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and during that process I replaced: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Both hi-limit switches >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --One or both boiler elements >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Giemme controller board with the updated one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --PID temp probe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Main power switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --New Jaeger pressure-stat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, as with this summer's shenanigans, my mom is visiting in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two weeks, and dearly loves a good latte. I spent several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hundred on overnight charges, parts, etc. while she was here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the summer, and managed 2 days of lattes for her in her >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> three-week visit. Hoping to get the machine back in action >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fast! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At the same time I did all that work, I totally disassembled >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything, descaled completely, and cleaned the solenoid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until it was shiny, i.e. all scale removed, etc. The solenoid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> functioned fine with power. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The machine worked normally from summer until this week, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with one weird symptom. It would occasionally make a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine-gun noise, i.e. something mechanical opening and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closing very rapidly, 5-10 times per second maybe. To me, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a higher pitched sound than the solenoid, and sounds like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it originates from the area of the giemme controller. Todd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suspected the solenoid might be sticking; I was thinking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps one of the two relays in the giemme controller was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misfiring (not sure that they are even relays--but I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> referring to the two small sets of contacts in the giemme that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look like points from a points-and-condensor ignition). At >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its worst, this symptom would continue for 10+ seconds and I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shut the machine off and back on; it would seem to "reset" and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop. At its best, it would last for a few seconds and stop >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on its own. It clearly is related to when the machine goes to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refill the steam boiler, i.e. when closing the steam wand, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dumping hot water boiler, etc. is when this would happen, very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intermittently. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As of a week ago, the machine-gun thing got really bad, i.e. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it happens 4-5 times while steaming enough milk for a latte, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. When shutting off the steam wand, when it goes to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refill, the machine-gun noise happens every time and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frequently does not stop. As the machine sits at idle and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasionally refills the steam boiler, it also makes the noise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At this point, it would seem to me that the culprit would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the giemme or the solenoid, but wait, there's more... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few other symptoms have happened in the past week, which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really confuse the issue for me, because I admittedly don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know exactly how electricity flows through the machine: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --The Jaeger P-stat has allowed the machine to over-pressure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about 3 times in 5 months, causing the blowoff to activate. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No way this should be happening with a new p-stat, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise it has been normal. As an aside, Chris Coffee will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not warrant the p-stat, stating 30 days is the warranty from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that manufacturer. So I have a 90-day-old failing part that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't be covered. Unexpected. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --The PID display (which I have set to 204F) has stayed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 105F for several hours each morning for about four days in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> row, and then later in the day, has heated to 204F. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --As of two days ago, the PID heated the brew boiler to 105F >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and stayed there all day, never heating to 204F. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Earlier this week, one day only, the PID display was blank >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when the machine was on. It remained blank for about an hour, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then suddenly lit up. It showed 105F. Every time the steam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boiler fired, the PID screen would flicker and get really dim, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost not visible. Then it would brighten right back up when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the steam boiler turned off. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Most of the time (and this is an old thing, maybe normal), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the PID numbers and "dot" will blink every few seconds, i.e. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they go off for a split second, and then come back on. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dot at this point will not stay on for more than a split >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> second also, i.e. it never shows the boiler calling for heat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once the steam boiler is off. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --The same day the PID display was blank and dim, there was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> single time where the steam boiler filled, and then shut off >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (solenoid clicked), but the pump kept running indefinitely. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finally had to turn off the machine to make it stop. After >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> power cycling the machine, the pump filled and stopped >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --At this time, the steam boiler fills and heats normally, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the exception of the machine-gun noise, which happens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost every time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK--I think that's it. I'm sorry if someone has told me this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before, but I'm trying to understand first how electricity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> travels in the machine. So far, the only thing that seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like a common point to all of these symptoms is the giemme >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> controller, but that's based on my limited understanding. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How I *think* it works is this: main power switch sends >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current to the giemme, which sends current to the pump and to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the pressure stat (via the two "relays" in the giemme?). If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the steam boiler is not up to temp, the p-stat sends current >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to it until it is at pressure, then it sends current onward to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the PID. The PID sends that onwards in bursts via its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solid-state relay to heat the brew boiler. Meanwhile, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giemme sends current to the pump (via a relay?) and to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solenoid, so the solenoid closes, diverting water to the steam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boiler, and the steam boiler fills. When water touches the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probe in the steam boiler, it essentially shorts out and stops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the pump, and the solenoid opens, sending water line pressure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the brew boiler, which is held back by the group. When the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lever is lifted, the lever mechanically opens the group to let >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water through, and the switch behind the lever sends power to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the pump to cause it to run and push water under pressure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through the group. If, while pulling a shot, the steam boiler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level drops below its probe, the solenoid closes and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interrupts water to the brew boiler/group until the steam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boiler is filled again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that sound about right? Again, I would really like to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand this whole circuit, especially the giemme >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> controller and what the two mechanical contacts are for on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that board. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Also, my PID is about 5-6 years old by now; what is the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expected service life of those? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Can I safely test the PID by reversing NO/NC terminals on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the P-stat? Wouldn't that have the effect of prioritizing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PID first? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, I'll stop. Enjoy your leftovers, and have a good coffee >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for me! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben McC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email 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