You should have it. Good luck. h On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ben McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yes, thanks! > bmc > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 27, 2015, at 13:45, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: > > I can email it if you'd like. > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Sure, thanks. I probably have mine somewhere, but…. :) >> bmc >> >> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:33 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I've got a new pid unit in the box that just came in wed from wll and it >> has an instruction sheet in it that might help. let me know if you need it. >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Herman, I think I have that and will look. I agree, find where >>> the voltage is missing, but I’m not sure what is “normal” for the solid >>> state relay, etc. Definitely have 120 there, and also at some of the PID >>> display unit. Need to see where it’s *supposed* to be going but isn’t, if >>> that makes sense. >>> b >>> >>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:13 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> just find out where the voltage is dropping. If you have 114 coming out >>> of the pressurestat at both point you know it's not that. That takes care >>> of half the machine. there's a wiring diagram on the brewtus compendium, I >>> found it after I posted, and it shows how everything is routed. If you >>> don't have a copy I can email one to you. >>> Herman >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> OK--making some progress. I was looking at it backwards. >>>> >>>> The com/1 wire comes FROM the giemme as you said, Herman--so there is >>>> 114V at the giemme, and 114V at the com/1 on the pstat. So that part is >>>> OK. I had the pstat backwards in my mind--so as would be expected, the >>>> normally closed/2 terminal on the pstat has 114V when steam is heating, so >>>> that part of the pstat is ok. That red wire goes to the high-limit on the >>>> steam boiler, and then on to the steam element. The far side of the steam >>>> high limit has 114V also, so that part is also OK. Since the steam boiler >>>> heats, I'll call that empirical evidence that the steam element is fine >>>> (albeit somewhat slow). >>>> >>>> When the steam boiler light turns off, the voltage at NC/2 drops to 0, >>>> as expected, and voltage at 4/NO jumps to 114V. The wire from 4/NO goes to >>>> the solid state relay 1/L1, and when the steam boiler shuts off, 1/L1 goes >>>> to 118V (assume I'm just seeing fluctuation in line voltage--readings have >>>> varied from 113-119V throughout). >>>> >>>> On the relay, 2/T1 is at 0V, and 3/A1 and 4/A2 are at 118V. The PID >>>> display is flickering and dimming now independent of the steam boiler's >>>> operation. >>>> >>>> 2/T1 is the wire that goes to the high-limit on the brew boiler, and >>>> then on to the brew element. So I think Todd's previous email to me is >>>> correct, that we're looking at either PID or solid-state relay. At least >>>> I've now traced 120V all the way from the giemme to the relay; from there >>>> I'll have to see if there is a way to diagnose each part independently. >>>> >>>> Still doesn't explain the chatter of the solenoid, unless that power >>>> comes from the relay or PID, and then if the PID was failing it could be >>>> sending bogus voltage, i.e. interrupted or whatever. But there is a >>>> terminal on the giemme for "bomba" (pump) and so I've always thought that >>>> the pump's power came from the giemme. >>>> >>>> Closer, but still puzzling a bit. >>>> >>>> b >>>> >>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:15, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I think that the pstat gets line voltage from the controller and then >>>> sends it to the steam or brew boiler from there. I think it's a white wire >>>> and the voltage there should be 120. it should also output the same >>>> voltage to either the brew or steam boiler depending on which is calling >>>> for it. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> So riddle me this, Batman--does power come FROM the solid state relay, >>>>> TO the p-stat--or the other way around? If the former, then seems the >>>>> relay is the culprit since the PID probably doesn't handle line voltage to >>>>> the boiler, right? >>>>> >>>>> I'll see if I can check input to the relay. >>>>> >>>>> b >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:04, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> At the rocker switch is 112.9. At the outer two terminals of the PID >>>>> with the negative held to a ground bolt on the case is 113.2. Center two >>>>> terminals of the PID are 4 or less. >>>>> >>>>> Good thought on the ground, I'll check. That was the culprit on old >>>>> BMW motorcycles more times than not... >>>>> b >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:55, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> You could have a loose wire, but I doubt it. What's the voltage going >>>>> into the pid? You could also have a bad ground. I've had that happen on >>>>> other things and it causes the power to be all over the place. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> OK, update. >>>>>> >>>>>> When I turn on the machine, I put a voltmeter across the pstat >>>>>> terminals. While the steam boiler was heating, terminals 1/com and 4/no >>>>>> show 60 volts. 1 and 2 of course show nothing. If I reverse wires 2/nc >>>>>> and 4/no, then cross pstat terminals 1 and 4, I get 120V. Switching them >>>>>> back to their normal configuration, once the steam boiler is heated and >>>>>> switched off, crossing 1 and 2 shows 120V. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now this is interesting. I had suggested to Todd that the flickering >>>>>> of the PID and the machine-gun thing make me thing of an under-current >>>>>> situation, i.e. not enough power to make the relay fire crisply and all >>>>>> the >>>>>> way. I have also notice lately (though it didn't occur to me as to why), >>>>>> that my steam boiler is being outrun when I steam milk. Lastly, it took >>>>>> forever for the vacuum breaker to seal shut just now; and it makes sense >>>>>> since the steam element is only getting 60V. >>>>>> >>>>>> So now the question becomes, why is reduced voltage happening on this >>>>>> one wire? It goes to the solid state relay on terminal 1/L1. >>>>>> >>>>>> b >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:24, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Likewise. It did occur to me that the pstat relies on a flexible >>>>>> rubber diaphragm; perhaps that has hardened over time as it sat on a >>>>>> shelf >>>>>> for three years. Pinging Chris again; also, he had offered 20%, not 10%, >>>>>> my mistake. >>>>>> Talk soon, >>>>>> bmc >>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:17, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems like mine was around that date too. The second new one says >>>>>> 4/15. They could have had a bad run of pstats or it could just be bad >>>>>> luck. >>>>>> My last pstat lasted almost 8 years. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benjamin McCafferty < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks Herman. >>>>>>> Pstat looks like mfg date of 6/12; shouldn't matter but there you >>>>>>> go. Chris will give 10% discount on a new one, but still chaps my butt. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll try to pull the giemme cover and watch the relay--don't try >>>>>>> this at home, kids! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I instinctively don't think the PID or element is bad, but will try >>>>>>> the p-stat reversal thing and see where that takes me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll post again in a bit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> b >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:07, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ben fwiw it sounds like you have 2 problems. I had the same problem >>>>>>> with a pstat and it only lasted 2 months. The next one worked fine. >>>>>>> There >>>>>>> should be a mfg date on the pstat. It seems like my first one was >>>>>>> several >>>>>>> years old and the second one was this year. I was having the same >>>>>>> symptoms >>>>>>> with the relief valve but no chatter. The chatter sounds like a relay >>>>>>> or a >>>>>>> solenoid. Can you pull the cover off and look at the relay while the >>>>>>> chattering is going on? That might help narrow things down. You could >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> a bad pid or element in the brew boiler causing that not to get up to >>>>>>> temp >>>>>>> but honestly I don't work on these things enough to do anything but >>>>>>> guess. >>>>>>> I just bought the pid upgrade for my machine but I may hold off on >>>>>>> installing it for a few more days. Maybe Todd will jump in and give you >>>>>>> some ideas. >>>>>>> Herman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Benjamin McCafferty < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey all! >>>>>>>> Hope you all had a great thanksgiving and that you're all waking >>>>>>>> from your food comas. I had more pie for breakfast, but alas, with no >>>>>>>> espresso. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I will be talking to Todd soon about this, but thought I'd also >>>>>>>> ping the collective and see if anyone has any ideas. Unfortunately, I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> a collection of symptoms at this point that I can't make fit a common >>>>>>>> cause; perhaps they will make sense to one of you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As you may recall, I had quite a bit of trouble this summer, and >>>>>>>> during that process I replaced: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Both hi-limit switches >>>>>>>> --One or both boiler elements >>>>>>>> --Giemme controller board with the updated one >>>>>>>> --PID temp probe >>>>>>>> --Main power switch >>>>>>>> --New Jaeger pressure-stat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, as with this summer's shenanigans, my mom is visiting in two >>>>>>>> weeks, and dearly loves a good latte. I spent several hundred on >>>>>>>> overnight >>>>>>>> charges, parts, etc. while she was here in the summer, and managed 2 >>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>> of lattes for her in her three-week visit. Hoping to get the machine >>>>>>>> back >>>>>>>> in action fast! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the same time I did all that work, I totally disassembled >>>>>>>> everything, descaled completely, and cleaned the solenoid until it was >>>>>>>> shiny, i.e. all scale removed, etc. The solenoid functioned fine with >>>>>>>> power. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The machine worked normally from summer until this week, but with >>>>>>>> one weird symptom. It would occasionally make a machine-gun noise, >>>>>>>> i.e. >>>>>>>> something mechanical opening and closing very rapidly, 5-10 times per >>>>>>>> second maybe. To me, it is a higher pitched sound than the solenoid, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> sounds like it originates from the area of the giemme controller. Todd >>>>>>>> suspected the solenoid might be sticking; I was thinking perhaps one >>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>> two relays in the giemme controller was misfiring (not sure that they >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> even relays--but I'm referring to the two small sets of contacts in the >>>>>>>> giemme that look like points from a points-and-condensor ignition). >>>>>>>> At its >>>>>>>> worst, this symptom would continue for 10+ seconds and I'd shut the >>>>>>>> machine >>>>>>>> off and back on; it would seem to "reset" and stop. At its best, it >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> last for a few seconds and stop on its own. It clearly is related to >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> the machine goes to refill the steam boiler, i.e. when closing the >>>>>>>> steam >>>>>>>> wand, dumping hot water boiler, etc. is when this would happen, very >>>>>>>> intermittently. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As of a week ago, the machine-gun thing got really bad, i.e. it >>>>>>>> happens 4-5 times while steaming enough milk for a latte, etc. When >>>>>>>> shutting off the steam wand, when it goes to refill, the machine-gun >>>>>>>> noise >>>>>>>> happens every time and frequently does not stop. As the machine sits >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> idle and occasionally refills the steam boiler, it also makes the noise >>>>>>>> every time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At this point, it would seem to me that the culprit would be the >>>>>>>> giemme or the solenoid, but wait, there's more... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A few other symptoms have happened in the past week, which really >>>>>>>> confuse the issue for me, because I admittedly don't know exactly how >>>>>>>> electricity flows through the machine: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --The Jaeger P-stat has allowed the machine to over-pressure about >>>>>>>> 3 times in 5 months, causing the blowoff to activate. No way this >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> be happening with a new p-stat, but otherwise it has been normal. As >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> aside, Chris Coffee will not warrant the p-stat, stating 30 days is the >>>>>>>> warranty from that manufacturer. So I have a 90-day-old failing part >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> won't be covered. Unexpected. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --The PID display (which I have set to 204F) has stayed at 105F for >>>>>>>> several hours each morning for about four days in a row, and then >>>>>>>> later in >>>>>>>> the day, has heated to 204F. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --As of two days ago, the PID heated the brew boiler to 105F and >>>>>>>> stayed there all day, never heating to 204F. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Earlier this week, one day only, the PID display was blank when >>>>>>>> the machine was on. It remained blank for about an hour, then >>>>>>>> suddenly lit >>>>>>>> up. It showed 105F. Every time the steam boiler fired, the PID screen >>>>>>>> would flicker and get really dim, almost not visible. Then it would >>>>>>>> brighten right back up when the steam boiler turned off. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Most of the time (and this is an old thing, maybe normal), the >>>>>>>> PID numbers and "dot" will blink every few seconds, i.e. they go off >>>>>>>> for a >>>>>>>> split second, and then come back on. The dot at this point will not >>>>>>>> stay >>>>>>>> on for more than a split second also, i.e. it never shows the boiler >>>>>>>> calling for heat once the steam boiler is off. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --The same day the PID display was blank and dim, there was a >>>>>>>> single time where the steam boiler filled, and then shut off (solenoid >>>>>>>> clicked), but the pump kept running indefinitely. I finally had to >>>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>> off the machine to make it stop. After power cycling the machine, the >>>>>>>> pump >>>>>>>> filled and stopped normally again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --At this time, the steam boiler fills and heats normally, with the >>>>>>>> exception of the machine-gun noise, which happens almost every time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK--I think that's it. I'm sorry if someone has told me this >>>>>>>> before, but I'm trying to understand first how electricity travels in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> machine. So far, the only thing that seems like a common point to all >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> these symptoms is the giemme controller, but that's based on my limited >>>>>>>> understanding. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How I *think* it works is this: main power switch sends current to >>>>>>>> the giemme, which sends current to the pump and to the pressure stat >>>>>>>> (via >>>>>>>> the two "relays" in the giemme?). If the steam boiler is not up to >>>>>>>> temp, >>>>>>>> the p-stat sends current to it until it is at pressure, then it sends >>>>>>>> current onward to the PID. The PID sends that onwards in bursts via >>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>> solid-state relay to heat the brew boiler. Meanwhile, the giemme sends >>>>>>>> current to the pump (via a relay?) and to the solenoid, so the solenoid >>>>>>>> closes, diverting water to the steam boiler, and the steam boiler >>>>>>>> fills. >>>>>>>> When water touches the probe in the steam boiler, it essentially >>>>>>>> shorts out >>>>>>>> and stops the pump, and the solenoid opens, sending water line >>>>>>>> pressure to >>>>>>>> the brew boiler, which is held back by the group. When the lever is >>>>>>>> lifted, the lever mechanically opens the group to let water through, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> the switch behind the lever sends power to the pump to cause it to run >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> push water under pressure through the group. If, while pulling a >>>>>>>> shot, the >>>>>>>> steam boiler level drops below its probe, the solenoid closes and >>>>>>>> interrupts water to the brew boiler/group until the steam boiler is >>>>>>>> filled >>>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does that sound about right? Again, I would really like to >>>>>>>> understand this whole circuit, especially the giemme controller and >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> the two mechanical contacts are for on that board. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Also, my PID is about 5-6 years old by now; what is the expected >>>>>>>> service life of those? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Can I safely test the PID by reversing NO/NC terminals on the >>>>>>>> P-stat? Wouldn't that have the effect of prioritizing the PID first? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, I'll stop. Enjoy your leftovers, and have a good coffee for me! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> best, >>>>>>>> Ben McC >>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>> For more options, 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