I have a shop that we use to service our trucks so I have access to an impact wrench. That sounds like a much easier solution than taking it all apart. I've descaled mine twice and found very little scale thankfully. It does take a while to get all of the citric acid out though.
On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Herman! I hear you, hard to argue with a functioning machine. To > do the solenoid, I have to pull tubing off the old one, etc. which almost > certainly involves pulling boilers, etc. But I'll look and see if I can > access through the bottom. > > If you can hold the boiler steady, you can exchange heating elements > through the bottom of the machine with an impact hammer. But probably > worth it to disassemble and descale at the same time. I found it > surprisingly easier than I'd hoped, but still a pretty big undertaking. > I'm an experienced wrench too though... > > b > > Sent from my apple IIe > > On Dec 4, 2015, at 09:36, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: > > Glad you got it going again! I still haven't installed my pid. It's hard > to work on it when everything is working fine. I dread having to replace > the heating elements and I still have the original ones in it. > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hey all! >> >> I ordered a bunch of parts and am getting there. As someone mentioned, >> it would seem I have two problems. >> >> I replaced the PID display yesterday, and the machine heated properly and >> the PID display numbers are bright and clear. So that part was clearly >> failed. >> >> I still have some chatter, which I now know is definitely solenoid, so >> I'll bet on that being the cause (it's original, eight years old) as >> opposed to the new Giemme controller from this summer. Man do I ever NOT >> want to tear down the machine again. But the good news is that I don't >> have to do it immediately, the machine is working and i just need to switch >> it off if the chatter starts and then it resets. >> >> Will keep you posted, and thanks as always for the help and insights. >> >> best, >> bmc >> >> Sent from my apple IIe >> >> On Nov 27, 2015, at 15:11, Ben McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Got it, thanks! >> b >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 27, 2015, at 14:32, herman dickens <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> You should have it. Good luck. >> h >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ben McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Yes, thanks! >>> bmc >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 13:45, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I can email it if you'd like. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Sure, thanks. I probably have mine somewhere, but…. :) >>>> bmc >>>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:33 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I've got a new pid unit in the box that just came in wed from wll and >>>> it has an instruction sheet in it that might help. let me know if you need >>>> it. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks Herman, I think I have that and will look. I agree, find where >>>>> the voltage is missing, but I’m not sure what is “normal” for the solid >>>>> state relay, etc. Definitely have 120 there, and also at some of the PID >>>>> display unit. Need to see where it’s *supposed* to be going but isn’t, if >>>>> that makes sense. >>>>> b >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:13 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> just find out where the voltage is dropping. If you have 114 coming >>>>> out of the pressurestat at both point you know it's not that. That takes >>>>> care of half the machine. there's a wiring diagram on the brewtus >>>>> compendium, I found it after I posted, and it shows how everything is >>>>> routed. If you don't have a copy I can email one to you. >>>>> Herman >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> OK--making some progress. I was looking at it backwards. >>>>>> >>>>>> The com/1 wire comes FROM the giemme as you said, Herman--so there is >>>>>> 114V at the giemme, and 114V at the com/1 on the pstat. So that part is >>>>>> OK. I had the pstat backwards in my mind--so as would be expected, the >>>>>> normally closed/2 terminal on the pstat has 114V when steam is heating, >>>>>> so >>>>>> that part of the pstat is ok. That red wire goes to the high-limit on >>>>>> the >>>>>> steam boiler, and then on to the steam element. The far side of the >>>>>> steam >>>>>> high limit has 114V also, so that part is also OK. Since the steam >>>>>> boiler >>>>>> heats, I'll call that empirical evidence that the steam element is fine >>>>>> (albeit somewhat slow). >>>>>> >>>>>> When the steam boiler light turns off, the voltage at NC/2 drops to >>>>>> 0, as expected, and voltage at 4/NO jumps to 114V. The wire from 4/NO >>>>>> goes >>>>>> to the solid state relay 1/L1, and when the steam boiler shuts off, 1/L1 >>>>>> goes to 118V (assume I'm just seeing fluctuation in line >>>>>> voltage--readings >>>>>> have varied from 113-119V throughout). >>>>>> >>>>>> On the relay, 2/T1 is at 0V, and 3/A1 and 4/A2 are at 118V. The PID >>>>>> display is flickering and dimming now independent of the steam boiler's >>>>>> operation. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2/T1 is the wire that goes to the high-limit on the brew boiler, and >>>>>> then on to the brew element. So I think Todd's previous email to me is >>>>>> correct, that we're looking at either PID or solid-state relay. At least >>>>>> I've now traced 120V all the way from the giemme to the relay; from there >>>>>> I'll have to see if there is a way to diagnose each part independently. >>>>>> >>>>>> Still doesn't explain the chatter of the solenoid, unless that power >>>>>> comes from the relay or PID, and then if the PID was failing it could be >>>>>> sending bogus voltage, i.e. interrupted or whatever. But there is a >>>>>> terminal on the giemme for "bomba" (pump) and so I've always thought that >>>>>> the pump's power came from the giemme. >>>>>> >>>>>> Closer, but still puzzling a bit. >>>>>> >>>>>> b >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:15, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that the pstat gets line voltage from the controller and then >>>>>> sends it to the steam or brew boiler from there. I think it's a white >>>>>> wire >>>>>> and the voltage there should be 120. it should also output the same >>>>>> voltage to either the brew or steam boiler depending on which is calling >>>>>> for it. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Benjamin McCafferty < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> So riddle me this, Batman--does power come FROM the solid state >>>>>>> relay, TO the p-stat--or the other way around? If the former, then >>>>>>> seems >>>>>>> the relay is the culprit since the PID probably doesn't handle line >>>>>>> voltage >>>>>>> to the boiler, right? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll see if I can check input to the relay. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> b >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:04, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the rocker switch is 112.9. At the outer two terminals of the >>>>>>> PID with the negative held to a ground bolt on the case is 113.2. >>>>>>> Center >>>>>>> two terminals of the PID are 4 or less. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good thought on the ground, I'll check. That was the culprit on old >>>>>>> BMW motorcycles more times than not... >>>>>>> b >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:55, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You could have a loose wire, but I doubt it. What's the voltage >>>>>>> going into the pid? You could also have a bad ground. I've had that >>>>>>> happen >>>>>>> on other things and it causes the power to be all over the place. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Benjamin McCafferty < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, update. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When I turn on the machine, I put a voltmeter across the pstat >>>>>>>> terminals. While the steam boiler was heating, terminals 1/com and >>>>>>>> 4/no >>>>>>>> show 60 volts. 1 and 2 of course show nothing. If I reverse wires >>>>>>>> 2/nc >>>>>>>> and 4/no, then cross pstat terminals 1 and 4, I get 120V. Switching >>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>> back to their normal configuration, once the steam boiler is heated and >>>>>>>> switched off, crossing 1 and 2 shows 120V. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now this is interesting. I had suggested to Todd that the >>>>>>>> flickering of the PID and the machine-gun thing make me thing of an >>>>>>>> under-current situation, i.e. not enough power to make the relay fire >>>>>>>> crisply and all the way. I have also notice lately (though it didn't >>>>>>>> occur >>>>>>>> to me as to why), that my steam boiler is being outrun when I steam >>>>>>>> milk. >>>>>>>> Lastly, it took forever for the vacuum breaker to seal shut just now; >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> it makes sense since the steam element is only getting 60V. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So now the question becomes, why is reduced voltage happening on >>>>>>>> this one wire? It goes to the solid state relay on terminal 1/L1. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:24, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Likewise. It did occur to me that the pstat relies on a flexible >>>>>>>> rubber diaphragm; perhaps that has hardened over time as it sat on a >>>>>>>> shelf >>>>>>>> for three years. Pinging Chris again; also, he had offered 20%, not >>>>>>>> 10%, >>>>>>>> my mistake. >>>>>>>> Talk soon, >>>>>>>> bmc >>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:17, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It seems like mine was around that date too. The second new one >>>>>>>> says 4/15. They could have had a bad run of pstats or it could just be >>>>>>>> bad >>>>>>>> luck. My last pstat lasted almost 8 years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benjamin McCafferty < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks Herman. >>>>>>>>> Pstat looks like mfg date of 6/12; shouldn't matter but there you >>>>>>>>> go. Chris will give 10% discount on a new one, but still chaps my >>>>>>>>> butt. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll try to pull the giemme cover and watch the relay--don't try >>>>>>>>> this at home, kids! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I instinctively don't think the PID or element is bad, but will >>>>>>>>> try the p-stat reversal thing and see where that takes me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll post again in a bit. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:07, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ben fwiw it sounds like you have 2 problems. I had the same >>>>>>>>> problem with a pstat and it only lasted 2 months. The next one worked >>>>>>>>> fine. >>>>>>>>> There should be a mfg date on the pstat. It seems like my first one >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> several years old and the second one was this year. I was having the >>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>> symptoms with the relief valve but no chatter. The chatter sounds >>>>>>>>> like a >>>>>>>>> relay or a solenoid. Can you pull the cover off and look at the relay >>>>>>>>> while >>>>>>>>> the chattering is going on? That might help narrow things down. You >>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>> have a bad pid or element in the brew boiler causing that not to get >>>>>>>>> up to >>>>>>>>> temp but honestly I don't work on these things enough to do anything >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> guess. I just bought the pid upgrade for my machine but I may hold >>>>>>>>> off on >>>>>>>>> installing it for a few more days. Maybe Todd will jump in and give >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> some ideas. >>>>>>>>> Herman >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Benjamin McCafferty < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hey all! >>>>>>>>>> Hope you all had a great thanksgiving and that you're all waking >>>>>>>>>> from your food comas. I had more pie for breakfast, but alas, with >>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>> espresso. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I will be talking to Todd soon about this, but thought I'd also >>>>>>>>>> ping the collective and see if anyone has any ideas. Unfortunately, >>>>>>>>>> I have >>>>>>>>>> a collection of symptoms at this point that I can't make fit a common >>>>>>>>>> cause; perhaps they will make sense to one of you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As you may recall, I had quite a bit of trouble this summer, and >>>>>>>>>> during that process I replaced: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --Both hi-limit switches >>>>>>>>>> --One or both boiler elements >>>>>>>>>> --Giemme controller board with the updated one >>>>>>>>>> --PID temp probe >>>>>>>>>> --Main power switch >>>>>>>>>> --New Jaeger pressure-stat >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also, as with this summer's shenanigans, my mom is visiting in >>>>>>>>>> two weeks, and dearly loves a good latte. I spent several hundred on >>>>>>>>>> overnight charges, parts, etc. while she was here in the summer, and >>>>>>>>>> managed 2 days of lattes for her in her three-week visit. Hoping to >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> the machine back in action fast! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At the same time I did all that work, I totally disassembled >>>>>>>>>> everything, descaled completely, and cleaned the solenoid until it >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> shiny, i.e. all scale removed, etc. The solenoid functioned fine >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> power. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The machine worked normally from summer until this week, but with >>>>>>>>>> one weird symptom. It would occasionally make a machine-gun noise, >>>>>>>>>> i.e. >>>>>>>>>> something mechanical opening and closing very rapidly, 5-10 times per >>>>>>>>>> second maybe. To me, it is a higher pitched sound than the >>>>>>>>>> solenoid, and >>>>>>>>>> sounds like it originates from the area of the giemme controller. >>>>>>>>>> Todd >>>>>>>>>> suspected the solenoid might be sticking; I was thinking perhaps one >>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>> two relays in the giemme controller was misfiring (not sure that >>>>>>>>>> they are >>>>>>>>>> even relays--but I'm referring to the two small sets of contacts in >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> giemme that look like points from a points-and-condensor ignition). >>>>>>>>>> At its >>>>>>>>>> worst, this symptom would continue for 10+ seconds and I'd shut the >>>>>>>>>> machine >>>>>>>>>> off and back on; it would seem to "reset" and stop. At its best, it >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> last for a few seconds and stop on its own. It clearly is related >>>>>>>>>> to when >>>>>>>>>> the machine goes to refill the steam boiler, i.e. when closing the >>>>>>>>>> steam >>>>>>>>>> wand, dumping hot water boiler, etc. is when this would happen, very >>>>>>>>>> intermittently. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As of a week ago, the machine-gun thing got really bad, i.e. it >>>>>>>>>> happens 4-5 times while steaming enough milk for a latte, etc. When >>>>>>>>>> shutting off the steam wand, when it goes to refill, the machine-gun >>>>>>>>>> noise >>>>>>>>>> happens every time and frequently does not stop. As the machine >>>>>>>>>> sits at >>>>>>>>>> idle and occasionally refills the steam boiler, it also makes the >>>>>>>>>> noise >>>>>>>>>> every time. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At this point, it would seem to me that the culprit would be the >>>>>>>>>> giemme or the solenoid, but wait, there's more... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A few other symptoms have happened in the past week, which really >>>>>>>>>> confuse the issue for me, because I admittedly don't know exactly how >>>>>>>>>> electricity flows through the machine: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --The Jaeger P-stat has allowed the machine to over-pressure >>>>>>>>>> about 3 times in 5 months, causing the blowoff to activate. No way >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> should be happening with a new p-stat, but otherwise it has been >>>>>>>>>> normal. >>>>>>>>>> As an aside, Chris Coffee will not warrant the p-stat, stating 30 >>>>>>>>>> days is >>>>>>>>>> the warranty from that manufacturer. So I have a 90-day-old failing >>>>>>>>>> part >>>>>>>>>> that won't be covered. Unexpected. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --The PID display (which I have set to 204F) has stayed at 105F >>>>>>>>>> for several hours each morning for about four days in a row, and >>>>>>>>>> then later >>>>>>>>>> in the day, has heated to 204F. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --As of two days ago, the PID heated the brew boiler to 105F and >>>>>>>>>> stayed there all day, never heating to 204F. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --Earlier this week, one day only, the PID display was blank when >>>>>>>>>> the machine was on. It remained blank for about an hour, then >>>>>>>>>> suddenly lit >>>>>>>>>> up. It showed 105F. Every time the steam boiler fired, the PID >>>>>>>>>> screen >>>>>>>>>> would flicker and get really dim, almost not visible. Then it would >>>>>>>>>> brighten right back up when the steam boiler turned off. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --Most of the time (and this is an old thing, maybe normal), the >>>>>>>>>> PID numbers and "dot" will blink every few seconds, i.e. they go off >>>>>>>>>> for a >>>>>>>>>> split second, and then come back on. The dot at this point will not >>>>>>>>>> stay >>>>>>>>>> on for more than a split second also, i.e. it never shows the boiler >>>>>>>>>> calling for heat once the steam boiler is off. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --The same day the PID display was blank and dim, there was a >>>>>>>>>> single time where the steam boiler filled, and then shut off >>>>>>>>>> (solenoid >>>>>>>>>> clicked), but the pump kept running indefinitely. I finally had to >>>>>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>> off the machine to make it stop. After power cycling the machine, >>>>>>>>>> the pump >>>>>>>>>> filled and stopped normally again. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --At this time, the steam boiler fills and heats normally, with >>>>>>>>>> the exception of the machine-gun noise, which happens almost every >>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> OK--I think that's it. I'm sorry if someone has told me this >>>>>>>>>> before, but I'm trying to understand first how electricity travels >>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>> machine. So far, the only thing that seems like a common point to >>>>>>>>>> all of >>>>>>>>>> these symptoms is the giemme controller, but that's based on my >>>>>>>>>> limited >>>>>>>>>> understanding. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How I *think* it works is this: main power switch sends current >>>>>>>>>> to the giemme, which sends current to the pump and to the pressure >>>>>>>>>> stat >>>>>>>>>> (via the two "relays" in the giemme?). If the steam boiler is not >>>>>>>>>> up to >>>>>>>>>> temp, the p-stat sends current to it until it is at pressure, then >>>>>>>>>> it sends >>>>>>>>>> current onward to the PID. The PID sends that onwards in bursts via >>>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>>> solid-state relay to heat the brew boiler. Meanwhile, the giemme >>>>>>>>>> sends >>>>>>>>>> current to the pump (via a relay?) and to the solenoid, so the >>>>>>>>>> solenoid >>>>>>>>>> closes, diverting water to the steam boiler, and the steam boiler >>>>>>>>>> fills. >>>>>>>>>> When water touches the probe in the steam boiler, it essentially >>>>>>>>>> shorts out >>>>>>>>>> and stops the pump, and the solenoid opens, sending water line >>>>>>>>>> pressure to >>>>>>>>>> the brew boiler, which is held back by the group. When the lever is >>>>>>>>>> lifted, the lever mechanically opens the group to let water through, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> the switch behind the lever sends power to the pump to cause it to >>>>>>>>>> run and >>>>>>>>>> push water under pressure through the group. If, while pulling a >>>>>>>>>> shot, the >>>>>>>>>> steam boiler level drops below its probe, the solenoid closes and >>>>>>>>>> interrupts water to the brew boiler/group until the steam boiler is >>>>>>>>>> filled >>>>>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Does that sound about right? Again, I would really like to >>>>>>>>>> understand this whole circuit, especially the giemme controller and >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> the two mechanical contacts are for on that board. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --Also, my PID is about 5-6 years old by now; what is the >>>>>>>>>> expected service life of those? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --Can I safely test the PID by reversing NO/NC terminals on the >>>>>>>>>> P-stat? Wouldn't that have the effect of prioritizing the PID first? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> OK, I'll stop. Enjoy your leftovers, and have a good coffee for >>>>>>>>>> me! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> best, >>>>>>>>>> Ben McC >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> 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