Sure, thanks. I probably have mine somewhere, but…. :) bmc > On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:33 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: > > I've got a new pid unit in the box that just came in wed from wll and it has > an instruction sheet in it that might help. let me know if you need it. > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Thanks Herman, I think I have that and will look. I agree, find where the > voltage is missing, but I’m not sure what is “normal” for the solid state > relay, etc. Definitely have 120 there, and also at some of the PID display > unit. Need to see where it’s *supposed* to be going but isn’t, if that makes > sense. > b > >> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:13 PM, herman dickens <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> just find out where the voltage is dropping. If you have 114 coming out of >> the pressurestat at both point you know it's not that. That takes care of >> half the machine. there's a wiring diagram on the brewtus compendium, I >> found it after I posted, and it shows how everything is routed. If you don't >> have a copy I can email one to you. >> Herman >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> OK--making some progress. I was looking at it backwards. >> >> The com/1 wire comes FROM the giemme as you said, Herman--so there is 114V >> at the giemme, and 114V at the com/1 on the pstat. So that part is OK. I >> had the pstat backwards in my mind--so as would be expected, the normally >> closed/2 terminal on the pstat has 114V when steam is heating, so that part >> of the pstat is ok. That red wire goes to the high-limit on the steam >> boiler, and then on to the steam element. The far side of the steam high >> limit has 114V also, so that part is also OK. Since the steam boiler heats, >> I'll call that empirical evidence that the steam element is fine (albeit >> somewhat slow). >> >> When the steam boiler light turns off, the voltage at NC/2 drops to 0, as >> expected, and voltage at 4/NO jumps to 114V. The wire from 4/NO goes to the >> solid state relay 1/L1, and when the steam boiler shuts off, 1/L1 goes to >> 118V (assume I'm just seeing fluctuation in line voltage--readings have >> varied from 113-119V throughout). >> >> On the relay, 2/T1 is at 0V, and 3/A1 and 4/A2 are at 118V. The PID display >> is flickering and dimming now independent of the steam boiler's operation. >> >> 2/T1 is the wire that goes to the high-limit on the brew boiler, and then on >> to the brew element. So I think Todd's previous email to me is correct, >> that we're looking at either PID or solid-state relay. At least I've now >> traced 120V all the way from the giemme to the relay; from there I'll have >> to see if there is a way to diagnose each part independently. >> >> Still doesn't explain the chatter of the solenoid, unless that power comes >> from the relay or PID, and then if the PID was failing it could be sending >> bogus voltage, i.e. interrupted or whatever. But there is a terminal on the >> giemme for "bomba" (pump) and so I've always thought that the pump's power >> came from the giemme. >> >> Closer, but still puzzling a bit. >> >> b >> >> Sent from my apple IIe >> >> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:15, herman dickens <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> I think that the pstat gets line voltage from the controller and then sends >>> it to the steam or brew boiler from there. I think it's a white wire and >>> the voltage there should be 120. it should also output the same voltage to >>> either the brew or steam boiler depending on which is calling for it. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> So riddle me this, Batman--does power come FROM the solid state relay, TO >>> the p-stat--or the other way around? If the former, then seems the relay >>> is the culprit since the PID probably doesn't handle line voltage to the >>> boiler, right? >>> >>> I'll see if I can check input to the relay. >>> >>> b >>> >>> Sent from my apple IIe >>> >>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:04, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>>> At the rocker switch is 112.9. At the outer two terminals of the PID with >>>> the negative held to a ground bolt on the case is 113.2. Center two >>>> terminals of the PID are 4 or less. >>>> >>>> Good thought on the ground, I'll check. That was the culprit on old BMW >>>> motorcycles more times than not... >>>> b >>>> >>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:55, herman dickens <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> You could have a loose wire, but I doubt it. What's the voltage going >>>>> into the pid? You could also have a bad ground. I've had that happen on >>>>> other things and it causes the power to be all over the place. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> OK, update. >>>>> >>>>> When I turn on the machine, I put a voltmeter across the pstat terminals. >>>>> While the steam boiler was heating, terminals 1/com and 4/no show 60 >>>>> volts. 1 and 2 of course show nothing. If I reverse wires 2/nc and >>>>> 4/no, then cross pstat terminals 1 and 4, I get 120V. Switching them >>>>> back to their normal configuration, once the steam boiler is heated and >>>>> switched off, crossing 1 and 2 shows 120V. >>>>> >>>>> Now this is interesting. I had suggested to Todd that the flickering of >>>>> the PID and the machine-gun thing make me thing of an under-current >>>>> situation, i.e. not enough power to make the relay fire crisply and all >>>>> the way. I have also notice lately (though it didn't occur to me as to >>>>> why), that my steam boiler is being outrun when I steam milk. Lastly, it >>>>> took forever for the vacuum breaker to seal shut just now; and it makes >>>>> sense since the steam element is only getting 60V. >>>>> >>>>> So now the question becomes, why is reduced voltage happening on this one >>>>> wire? It goes to the solid state relay on terminal 1/L1. >>>>> >>>>> b >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:24, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Likewise. It did occur to me that the pstat relies on a flexible rubber >>>>>> diaphragm; perhaps that has hardened over time as it sat on a shelf for >>>>>> three years. Pinging Chris again; also, he had offered 20%, not 10%, my >>>>>> mistake. >>>>>> Talk soon, >>>>>> bmc >>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:17, herman dickens <[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> It seems like mine was around that date too. The second new one says >>>>>>> 4/15. They could have had a bad run of pstats or it could just be bad >>>>>>> luck. My last pstat lasted almost 8 years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> Thanks Herman. >>>>>>> Pstat looks like mfg date of 6/12; shouldn't matter but there you go. >>>>>>> Chris will give 10% discount on a new one, but still chaps my butt. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll try to pull the giemme cover and watch the relay--don't try this >>>>>>> at home, kids! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I instinctively don't think the PID or element is bad, but will try the >>>>>>> p-stat reversal thing and see where that takes me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll post again in a bit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> b >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:07, herman dickens <[email protected] >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ben fwiw it sounds like you have 2 problems. I had the same problem >>>>>>>> with a pstat and it only lasted 2 months. The next one worked fine. >>>>>>>> There should be a mfg date on the pstat. It seems like my first one >>>>>>>> was several years old and the second one was this year. I was having >>>>>>>> the same symptoms with the relief valve but no chatter. The chatter >>>>>>>> sounds like a relay or a solenoid. Can you pull the cover off and look >>>>>>>> at the relay while the chattering is going on? That might help narrow >>>>>>>> things down. You could have a bad pid or element in the brew boiler >>>>>>>> causing that not to get up to temp but honestly I don't work on these >>>>>>>> things enough to do anything but guess. I just bought the pid upgrade >>>>>>>> for my machine but I may hold off on installing it for a few more >>>>>>>> days. Maybe Todd will jump in and give you some ideas. >>>>>>>> Herman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Hey all! >>>>>>>> Hope you all had a great thanksgiving and that you're all waking from >>>>>>>> your food comas. I had more pie for breakfast, but alas, with no >>>>>>>> espresso. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I will be talking to Todd soon about this, but thought I'd also ping >>>>>>>> the collective and see if anyone has any ideas. Unfortunately, I have >>>>>>>> a collection of symptoms at this point that I can't make fit a common >>>>>>>> cause; perhaps they will make sense to one of you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As you may recall, I had quite a bit of trouble this summer, and >>>>>>>> during that process I replaced: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Both hi-limit switches >>>>>>>> --One or both boiler elements >>>>>>>> --Giemme controller board with the updated one >>>>>>>> --PID temp probe >>>>>>>> --Main power switch >>>>>>>> --New Jaeger pressure-stat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, as with this summer's shenanigans, my mom is visiting in two >>>>>>>> weeks, and dearly loves a good latte. I spent several hundred on >>>>>>>> overnight charges, parts, etc. while she was here in the summer, and >>>>>>>> managed 2 days of lattes for her in her three-week visit. Hoping to >>>>>>>> get the machine back in action fast! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the same time I did all that work, I totally disassembled >>>>>>>> everything, descaled completely, and cleaned the solenoid until it was >>>>>>>> shiny, i.e. all scale removed, etc. The solenoid functioned fine with >>>>>>>> power. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The machine worked normally from summer until this week, but with one >>>>>>>> weird symptom. It would occasionally make a machine-gun noise, i.e. >>>>>>>> something mechanical opening and closing very rapidly, 5-10 times per >>>>>>>> second maybe. To me, it is a higher pitched sound than the solenoid, >>>>>>>> and sounds like it originates from the area of the giemme controller. >>>>>>>> Todd suspected the solenoid might be sticking; I was thinking perhaps >>>>>>>> one of the two relays in the giemme controller was misfiring (not sure >>>>>>>> that they are even relays--but I'm referring to the two small sets of >>>>>>>> contacts in the giemme that look like points from a >>>>>>>> points-and-condensor ignition). At its worst, this symptom would >>>>>>>> continue for 10+ seconds and I'd shut the machine off and back on; it >>>>>>>> would seem to "reset" and stop. At its best, it would last for a few >>>>>>>> seconds and stop on its own. It clearly is related to when the >>>>>>>> machine goes to refill the steam boiler, i.e. when closing the steam >>>>>>>> wand, dumping hot water boiler, etc. is when this would happen, very >>>>>>>> intermittently. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As of a week ago, the machine-gun thing got really bad, i.e. it >>>>>>>> happens 4-5 times while steaming enough milk for a latte, etc. When >>>>>>>> shutting off the steam wand, when it goes to refill, the machine-gun >>>>>>>> noise happens every time and frequently does not stop. As the machine >>>>>>>> sits at idle and occasionally refills the steam boiler, it also makes >>>>>>>> the noise every time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At this point, it would seem to me that the culprit would be the >>>>>>>> giemme or the solenoid, but wait, there's more... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A few other symptoms have happened in the past week, which really >>>>>>>> confuse the issue for me, because I admittedly don't know exactly how >>>>>>>> electricity flows through the machine: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --The Jaeger P-stat has allowed the machine to over-pressure about 3 >>>>>>>> times in 5 months, causing the blowoff to activate. No way this >>>>>>>> should be happening with a new p-stat, but otherwise it has been >>>>>>>> normal. As an aside, Chris Coffee will not warrant the p-stat, >>>>>>>> stating 30 days is the warranty from that manufacturer. So I have a >>>>>>>> 90-day-old failing part that won't be covered. Unexpected. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --The PID display (which I have set to 204F) has stayed at 105F for >>>>>>>> several hours each morning for about four days in a row, and then >>>>>>>> later in the day, has heated to 204F. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --As of two days ago, the PID heated the brew boiler to 105F and >>>>>>>> stayed there all day, never heating to 204F. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Earlier this week, one day only, the PID display was blank when the >>>>>>>> machine was on. It remained blank for about an hour, then suddenly >>>>>>>> lit up. It showed 105F. Every time the steam boiler fired, the PID >>>>>>>> screen would flicker and get really dim, almost not visible. Then it >>>>>>>> would brighten right back up when the steam boiler turned off. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Most of the time (and this is an old thing, maybe normal), the PID >>>>>>>> numbers and "dot" will blink every few seconds, i.e. they go off for a >>>>>>>> split second, and then come back on. The dot at this point will not >>>>>>>> stay on for more than a split second also, i.e. it never shows the >>>>>>>> boiler calling for heat once the steam boiler is off. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --The same day the PID display was blank and dim, there was a single >>>>>>>> time where the steam boiler filled, and then shut off (solenoid >>>>>>>> clicked), but the pump kept running indefinitely. I finally had to >>>>>>>> turn off the machine to make it stop. After power cycling the >>>>>>>> machine, the pump filled and stopped normally again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --At this time, the steam boiler fills and heats normally, with the >>>>>>>> exception of the machine-gun noise, which happens almost every time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK--I think that's it. I'm sorry if someone has told me this before, >>>>>>>> but I'm trying to understand first how electricity travels in the >>>>>>>> machine. So far, the only thing that seems like a common point to all >>>>>>>> of these symptoms is the giemme controller, but that's based on my >>>>>>>> limited understanding. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How I *think* it works is this: main power switch sends current to >>>>>>>> the giemme, which sends current to the pump and to the pressure stat >>>>>>>> (via the two "relays" in the giemme?). If the steam boiler is not up >>>>>>>> to temp, the p-stat sends current to it until it is at pressure, then >>>>>>>> it sends current onward to the PID. The PID sends that onwards in >>>>>>>> bursts via its solid-state relay to heat the brew boiler. Meanwhile, >>>>>>>> the giemme sends current to the pump (via a relay?) and to the >>>>>>>> solenoid, so the solenoid closes, diverting water to the steam boiler, >>>>>>>> and the steam boiler fills. When water touches the probe in the steam >>>>>>>> boiler, it essentially shorts out and stops the pump, and the solenoid >>>>>>>> opens, sending water line pressure to the brew boiler, which is held >>>>>>>> back by the group. When the lever is lifted, the lever mechanically >>>>>>>> opens the group to let water through, and the switch behind the lever >>>>>>>> sends power to the pump to cause it to run and push water under >>>>>>>> pressure through the group. If, while pulling a shot, the steam >>>>>>>> boiler level drops below its probe, the solenoid closes and interrupts >>>>>>>> water to the brew boiler/group until the steam boiler is filled again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does that sound about right? Again, I would really like to understand >>>>>>>> this whole circuit, especially the giemme controller and what the two >>>>>>>> mechanical contacts are for on that board. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Also, my PID is about 5-6 years old by now; what is the expected >>>>>>>> service life of those? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Can I safely test the PID by reversing NO/NC terminals on the >>>>>>>> P-stat? Wouldn't that have the effect of prioritizing the PID first? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, I'll stop. Enjoy your leftovers, and have a good coffee for me! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> best, >>>>>>>> Ben McC >>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to [email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:brewtus%[email protected]>. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus >>>>>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus>. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to 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