Thanks Herman! I hear you, hard to argue with a functioning machine. To do the solenoid, I have to pull tubing off the old one, etc. which almost certainly involves pulling boilers, etc. But I'll look and see if I can access through the bottom.
If you can hold the boiler steady, you can exchange heating elements through the bottom of the machine with an impact hammer. But probably worth it to disassemble and descale at the same time. I found it surprisingly easier than I'd hoped, but still a pretty big undertaking. I'm an experienced wrench too though... b Sent from my apple IIe > On Dec 4, 2015, at 09:36, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: > > Glad you got it going again! I still haven't installed my pid. It's hard to > work on it when everything is working fine. I dread having to replace the > heating elements and I still have the original ones in it. > >> On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> Hey all! >> >> I ordered a bunch of parts and am getting there. As someone mentioned, it >> would seem I have two problems. >> >> I replaced the PID display yesterday, and the machine heated properly and >> the PID display numbers are bright and clear. So that part was clearly >> failed. >> >> I still have some chatter, which I now know is definitely solenoid, so I'll >> bet on that being the cause (it's original, eight years old) as opposed to >> the new Giemme controller from this summer. Man do I ever NOT want to tear >> down the machine again. But the good news is that I don't have to do it >> immediately, the machine is working and i just need to switch it off if the >> chatter starts and then it resets. >> >> Will keep you posted, and thanks as always for the help and insights. >> >> best, >> bmc >> >> Sent from my apple IIe >> >>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 15:11, Ben McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Got it, thanks! >>> b >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 14:32, herman dickens <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> You should have it. Good luck. >>>> h >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ben McCafferty <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> Yes, thanks! >>>>> bmc >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 13:45, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I can email it if you'd like. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Sure, thanks. I probably have mine somewhere, but…. :) >>>>>>> bmc >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:33 PM, herman dickens <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've got a new pid unit in the box that just came in wed from wll and >>>>>>>> it has an instruction sheet in it that might help. let me know if you >>>>>>>> need it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Thanks Herman, I think I have that and will look. I agree, find >>>>>>>>> where the voltage is missing, but I’m not sure what is “normal” for >>>>>>>>> the solid state relay, etc. Definitely have 120 there, and also at >>>>>>>>> some of the PID display unit. Need to see where it’s *supposed* to >>>>>>>>> be going but isn’t, if that makes sense. >>>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 1:13 PM, herman dickens >>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> just find out where the voltage is dropping. If you have 114 coming >>>>>>>>>> out of the pressurestat at both point you know it's not that. That >>>>>>>>>> takes care of half the machine. there's a wiring diagram on the >>>>>>>>>> brewtus compendium, I found it after I posted, and it shows how >>>>>>>>>> everything is routed. If you don't have a copy I can email one to >>>>>>>>>> you. >>>>>>>>>> Herman >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> OK--making some progress. I was looking at it backwards. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The com/1 wire comes FROM the giemme as you said, Herman--so there >>>>>>>>>>> is 114V at the giemme, and 114V at the com/1 on the pstat. So that >>>>>>>>>>> part is OK. I had the pstat backwards in my mind--so as would be >>>>>>>>>>> expected, the normally closed/2 terminal on the pstat has 114V when >>>>>>>>>>> steam is heating, so that part of the pstat is ok. That red wire >>>>>>>>>>> goes to the high-limit on the steam boiler, and then on to the >>>>>>>>>>> steam element. The far side of the steam high limit has 114V also, >>>>>>>>>>> so that part is also OK. Since the steam boiler heats, I'll call >>>>>>>>>>> that empirical evidence that the steam element is fine (albeit >>>>>>>>>>> somewhat slow). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> When the steam boiler light turns off, the voltage at NC/2 drops to >>>>>>>>>>> 0, as expected, and voltage at 4/NO jumps to 114V. The wire from >>>>>>>>>>> 4/NO goes to the solid state relay 1/L1, and when the steam boiler >>>>>>>>>>> shuts off, 1/L1 goes to 118V (assume I'm just seeing fluctuation in >>>>>>>>>>> line voltage--readings have varied from 113-119V throughout). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On the relay, 2/T1 is at 0V, and 3/A1 and 4/A2 are at 118V. The >>>>>>>>>>> PID display is flickering and dimming now independent of the steam >>>>>>>>>>> boiler's operation. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2/T1 is the wire that goes to the high-limit on the brew boiler, >>>>>>>>>>> and then on to the brew element. So I think Todd's previous email >>>>>>>>>>> to me is correct, that we're looking at either PID or solid-state >>>>>>>>>>> relay. At least I've now traced 120V all the way from the giemme >>>>>>>>>>> to the relay; from there I'll have to see if there is a way to >>>>>>>>>>> diagnose each part independently. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Still doesn't explain the chatter of the solenoid, unless that >>>>>>>>>>> power comes from the relay or PID, and then if the PID was failing >>>>>>>>>>> it could be sending bogus voltage, i.e. interrupted or whatever. >>>>>>>>>>> But there is a terminal on the giemme for "bomba" (pump) and so >>>>>>>>>>> I've always thought that the pump's power came from the giemme. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Closer, but still puzzling a bit. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:15, herman dickens >>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think that the pstat gets line voltage from the controller and >>>>>>>>>>>> then sends it to the steam or brew boiler from there. I think it's >>>>>>>>>>>> a white wire and the voltage there should be 120. it should also >>>>>>>>>>>> output the same voltage to either the brew or steam boiler >>>>>>>>>>>> depending on which is calling for it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> So riddle me this, Batman--does power come FROM the solid state >>>>>>>>>>>>> relay, TO the p-stat--or the other way around? If the former, >>>>>>>>>>>>> then seems the relay is the culprit since the PID probably >>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't handle line voltage to the boiler, right? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll see if I can check input to the relay. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:04, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> At the rocker switch is 112.9. At the outer two terminals of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the PID with the negative held to a ground bolt on the case is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 113.2. Center two terminals of the PID are 4 or less. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good thought on the ground, I'll check. That was the culprit on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> old BMW motorcycles more times than not... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:55, herman dickens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You could have a loose wire, but I doubt it. What's the voltage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going into the pid? You could also have a bad ground. I've had >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that happen on other things and it causes the power to be all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over the place. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, update. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When I turn on the machine, I put a voltmeter across the pstat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminals. While the steam boiler was heating, terminals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1/com and 4/no show 60 volts. 1 and 2 of course show nothing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If I reverse wires 2/nc and 4/no, then cross pstat terminals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 and 4, I get 120V. Switching them back to their normal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configuration, once the steam boiler is heated and switched >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off, crossing 1 and 2 shows 120V. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now this is interesting. I had suggested to Todd that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flickering of the PID and the machine-gun thing make me thing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of an under-current situation, i.e. not enough power to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the relay fire crisply and all the way. I have also notice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lately (though it didn't occur to me as to why), that my steam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boiler is being outrun when I steam milk. Lastly, it took >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forever for the vacuum breaker to seal shut just now; and it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes sense since the steam element is only getting 60V. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So now the question becomes, why is reduced voltage happening >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this one wire? It goes to the solid state relay on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminal 1/L1. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:24, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise. It did occur to me that the pstat relies on a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flexible rubber diaphragm; perhaps that has hardened over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time as it sat on a shelf for three years. Pinging Chris >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again; also, he had offered 20%, not 10%, my mistake. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Talk soon, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bmc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:17, herman dickens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems like mine was around that date too. The second new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one says 4/15. They could have had a bad run of pstats or it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could just be bad luck. My last pstat lasted almost 8 years. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Herman. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pstat looks like mfg date of 6/12; shouldn't matter but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there you go. Chris will give 10% discount on a new one, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but still chaps my butt. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll try to pull the giemme cover and watch the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relay--don't try this at home, kids! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I instinctively don't think the PID or element is bad, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will try the p-stat reversal thing and see where that takes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll post again in a bit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> b >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2015, at 11:07, herman dickens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben fwiw it sounds like you have 2 problems. I had the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same problem with a pstat and it only lasted 2 months. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next one worked fine. There should be a mfg date on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pstat. It seems like my first one was several years old >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the second one was this year. I was having the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> symptoms with the relief valve but no chatter. The chatter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds like a relay or a solenoid. Can you pull the cover >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off and look at the relay while the chattering is going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on? That might help narrow things down. You could have a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad pid or element in the brew boiler causing that not to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get up to temp but honestly I don't work on these things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to do anything but guess. I just bought the pid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upgrade for my machine but I may hold off on installing it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a few more days. Maybe Todd will jump in and give you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some ideas. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Herman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Benjamin McCafferty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey all! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope you all had a great thanksgiving and that you're all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waking from your food comas. I had more pie for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> breakfast, but alas, with no espresso. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will be talking to Todd soon about this, but thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd also ping the collective and see if anyone has any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ideas. Unfortunately, I have a collection of symptoms at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this point that I can't make fit a common cause; perhaps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they will make sense to one of you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you may recall, I had quite a bit of trouble this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> summer, and during that process I replaced: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Both hi-limit switches >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --One or both boiler elements >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Giemme controller board with the updated one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --PID temp probe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Main power switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --New Jaeger pressure-stat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, as with this summer's shenanigans, my mom is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visiting in two weeks, and dearly loves a good latte. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spent several hundred on overnight charges, parts, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while she was here in the summer, and managed 2 days of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lattes for her in her three-week visit. Hoping to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the machine back in action fast! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At the same time I did all that work, I totally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disassembled everything, descaled completely, and cleaned >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the solenoid until it was shiny, i.e. all scale removed, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. The solenoid functioned fine with power. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The machine worked normally from summer until this week, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but with one weird symptom. It would occasionally make a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine-gun noise, i.e. something mechanical opening and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closing very rapidly, 5-10 times per second maybe. To >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, it is a higher pitched sound than the solenoid, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it originates from the area of the giemme >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> controller. Todd suspected the solenoid might be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sticking; I was thinking perhaps one of the two relays in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the giemme controller was misfiring (not sure that they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are even relays--but I'm referring to the two small sets >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of contacts in the giemme that look like points from a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> points-and-condensor ignition). At its worst, this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> symptom would continue for 10+ seconds and I'd shut the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine off and back on; it would seem to "reset" and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop. At its best, it would last for a few seconds and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop on its own. It clearly is related to when the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine goes to refill the steam boiler, i.e. when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closing the steam wand, dumping hot water boiler, etc. is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when this would happen, very intermittently. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As of a week ago, the machine-gun thing got really bad, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i.e. it happens 4-5 times while steaming enough milk for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a latte, etc. When shutting off the steam wand, when it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes to refill, the machine-gun noise happens every time >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and frequently does not stop. As the machine sits at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idle and occasionally refills the steam boiler, it also >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes the noise every time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At this point, it would seem to me that the culprit would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be the giemme or the solenoid, but wait, there's more... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few other symptoms have happened in the past week, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which really confuse the issue for me, because I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> admittedly don't know exactly how electricity flows >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through the machine: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --The Jaeger P-stat has allowed the machine to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over-pressure about 3 times in 5 months, causing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blowoff to activate. No way this should be happening >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a new p-stat, but otherwise it has been normal. As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an aside, Chris Coffee will not warrant the p-stat, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stating 30 days is the warranty from that manufacturer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I have a 90-day-old failing part that won't be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> covered. Unexpected. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --The PID display (which I have set to 204F) has stayed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at 105F for several hours each morning for about four >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> days in a row, and then later in the day, has heated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 204F. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --As of two days ago, the PID heated the brew boiler to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 105F and stayed there all day, never heating to 204F. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Earlier this week, one day only, the PID display was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blank when the machine was on. It remained blank for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about an hour, then suddenly lit up. It showed 105F. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every time the steam boiler fired, the PID screen would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flicker and get really dim, almost not visible. Then it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would brighten right back up when the steam boiler turned >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Most of the time (and this is an old thing, maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal), the PID numbers and "dot" will blink every few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seconds, i.e. they go off for a split second, and then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come back on. The dot at this point will not stay on for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a split second also, i.e. it never shows the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boiler calling for heat once the steam boiler is off. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --The same day the PID display was blank and dim, there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was a single time where the steam boiler filled, and then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shut off (solenoid clicked), but the pump kept running >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indefinitely. I finally had to turn off the machine to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make it stop. After power cycling the machine, the pump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled and stopped normally again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --At this time, the steam boiler fills and heats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally, with the exception of the machine-gun noise, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which happens almost every time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK--I think that's it. I'm sorry if someone has told me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this before, but I'm trying to understand first how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electricity travels in the machine. So far, the only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing that seems like a common point to all of these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> symptoms is the giemme controller, but that's based on my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> limited understanding. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How I *think* it works is this: main power switch sends >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current to the giemme, which sends current to the pump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and to the pressure stat (via the two "relays" in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giemme?). If the steam boiler is not up to temp, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> p-stat sends current to it until it is at pressure, then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it sends current onward to the PID. The PID sends that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> onwards in bursts via its solid-state relay to heat the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brew boiler. Meanwhile, the giemme sends current to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pump (via a relay?) and to the solenoid, so the solenoid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closes, diverting water to the steam boiler, and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steam boiler fills. When water touches the probe in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steam boiler, it essentially shorts out and stops the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pump, and the solenoid opens, sending water line pressure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the brew boiler, which is held back by the group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When the lever is lifted, the lever mechanically opens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the group to let water through, and the switch behind the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lever sends power to the pump to cause it to run and push >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water under pressure through the group. If, while >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pulling a shot, the steam boiler level drops below its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probe, the solenoid closes and interrupts water to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brew boiler/group until the steam boiler is filled again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that sound about right? Again, I would really like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to understand this whole circuit, especially the giemme >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> controller and what the two mechanical contacts are for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on that board. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Also, my PID is about 5-6 years old by now; what is the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expected service life of those? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Can I safely test the PID by reversing NO/NC terminals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the P-stat? Wouldn't that have the effect of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prioritizing the PID first? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, I'll stop. Enjoy your leftovers, and have a good >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coffee for me! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben McC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my apple IIe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to 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to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Brewtus" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Brewtus" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Brewtus" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Brewtus" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Brewtus" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Brewtus" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Brewtus" group. 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