Ok - we disagree about the date to use. I was just using CARB’s analysis and the dates they pick. But it really doesn’t matter.
On number of stations, you repeat exactly what I said, that the 2020 numbers are a projection. It had to be, 2020 wasn’t over. But everything prior was an actual number. I took issue with your statement that there were only five additional stations since 2017. In 2018 alone, there were more than than five new stations. And the DOE numbers you cite reflect an increase of many, many more than five new stations since 2017. In regard to your question “ How is comparing the number of stations that are ACTUALLY open not an "apples to apples" comparison?” - If you are trying to compare how many vehicles you have the capacity to serve, there is not a one to one match. A hydrogen fueling “spot” can refuel many more cars, provide fuel for many more miles…however you want to measure it. Put another way, if you were to built the “right” number of charging stations for a million BEVs, and then assumed that the amount for BEVs would be the same number as for a million FCEVs, you would be dead wrong. Hope that my point was clearer. I wasn’t making a point as to which was better or not for infrastructure. But yes, currently the infrastructure for FCEVs is more under built than it is for BEVs. But my earlier point was that, as an individual consumer, if you have adequate H2 infrastructure for you, it’s not a disadvantage. Granted, because of the limited infrastructure currently, those consumers in the US for whom it would work fine is very small. In California, much less so. But still not an optimal situation. But it worked fine for my wife, for me, and for my son because we had infrastructure near where we work (or on the way), near we live or both. Your point about subsidies was correct, but my point was actually about *government* subsidies, and the 5:1 was BEVcharging:FCEVfueling. As far as self-sufficiency, you may be correct, but I’ve seen no information about the BEV side. I’m not talking about the individual, but the industry. How soon can the industry be self-sufficient, meaning without government subsidies for infrastructure? What’s the pathway to a successful charging industry? Lastly, while I remain hopeful about fueling at home, I’m not holding breathe that I will be able to do so economically in the near future. I don’t think that’s a fruitful discussion on the FCEV side. On the BEV side, that’s a big advantage IF it works for you both economically and practically. When I tried to purchase a RAV4-EV, it must have worked for me, but by the time I bought my first FCEV, it wouldn’t have. It *is* possible that even if it didn’t work well for me, I still would have bought it and made do, given my involvement in the field. In case it’s not clear, I’m just trying to correct incorrect information,and NOT weigh in on your question. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 24, 2021, at 9:26 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> You want to define it in your way, fine, know know that the industry and the >> state look at it >> differently. Despite the marketing PR of the OEMs. >> >> “Modern” batteries - We differ on definition of modern EV versus not. I view >> the not- modern ones >> to be the ones that were common in the late-1800s to the early 1900s. >> >> Besides the chemistry of the battery, how else do they differ? How would you >> view those BEVs or >> fuel cells that use completely different chemistries? > > Ok fine. Since a FCEV uses motors, controllers and batteries, that are > essentially the same as > BEVs, that means that both FCEV and BEV have been under development for > exactly the same length of > time, regardless of what start date you choose. > If you want to separate out Fuel Cell developement, the first fuel cell was > developed a couple > years before the first Lead-Acid battery and about 30 years before the first > EV. > >> Number of stations - where did you find the incorrect numbers at DOE? >> >> If you look at the above document, 31 stations in 2017, 39 in 2018, 44 in >> 2019, 58 in 2020 (given >> date of document, this would have to be projected), and projected 2021 of 62. > > That document CLEARLY states those are "projected" numbers. > " The latest pre-COVID projections show that up to 58 stations may achieve > Open-Retail > status by the end of 2020" > > DOE's website shows a total of 53 stations currently active in the US and > Canada with 45 stations > in California. > https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=HY > >> In comparing infrastructure numbers, what would be interesting is a >> comparison on an apples to >> apples basis. What’s the fueling/recharging capacity that is equivalent? I >> know it’s been done >> someplace. > > How is comparing the number of stations that are ACTUALLY open not an "apples > to apples" > comparison? > > My original question was about the ACTUAL advantages/disadvantages of FCEV vs > BEV. Outside of > California the average state in the USA has about 1,000 BEV charging stations > and on average about > zero Hydrogen fueling stations. > No matter how you twist it I can't see that as anything other than > overwhelming disavantage for > FCEV, a disadvantage that is so significant that non of the advantages, that > you have so far failed > to post, could possibly overcome. > >> One thing you must also recognize is that subsidies for the two technologies >> have been very uneven >> (I think something like a 5:1 or more ratio). Again, not a factor in “which >> one is better”. > > Yes I've read that Toyota and Honda are heavily subsidizing the cost of their > FCEVs, but you're > right, the average consumer doesn't care home much someone else is > subsidizing something, they just > care about what they have to pay. > >> A further interesting comparison is the pathway to self-sufficiency for >> infrastructure. I know the >> fuel cell industry has done it, but don’t know if there is a similar path on >> the BEV side. That >> COULD impact a consumer’s view. > > According to this report (produced last year) self sufficent hydrogen > stations are at least a > decade away > https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/ab_8_self_sufficiency_report_draft_ac.pdf > > There are numerous self contained solar powered BEV charging stations, both > public and > private, that have been in use for years. > > While I currently charge my BEV with solar power I produce myself, it's not > technically self > sufficent since I'm still connected to the grid. > I'm in the process of building an off-grid solar powered charging station, > and then eventually > taking my whole house off grid. > I've already purchased the solar panels, inverter, and a dual cord, level-2 > EVSE. So far it's cost > me about $2,600. Currently I'm using old NiCad batteries, eventually I'll buy > some LiIon batteries > for it. > It should be capable of providing ~70 miles range per day on average. > > I was trying to find a home hydrogen fueling station, I couldn't find anyone > that was actually > selling one yet. > I read about one guy that built his own hydrogen production system capable of > running his house, but > it cost him something like six hundred thousand dollars. He posted a couple > years ago that he > thought it could be done for less than two hundred thousand now. His system > stored the hydrogen at > very low pressure, around 250 psi as I recall. > From what I've read, the pumps capable of safely compressing hydrogen > (without it exploding) are > incredibly expensive as well. > > The $3,000-$4,000 extra it would cost to buy enough additional solar panels > to produce the same > range in hydrogen is chump change compared to the hundreds of thousands of > dollars it would cost to > buy the equipment capable of safely producing, compressing, and storing > hydrogen. > > Economies of scale help the public hydrogen fueling station, for the same > number of miles per day they could potentially be built for only 10-20x as > much as a self sufficient BEV charging center. > > Again, I don't see anyway that can be considered anything other than a > disadvantage for FCEV. > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > _______________________________________________ Address messages to [email protected] No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
