> You want to define it in your way, fine, know know that the industry and the > state look at it > differently. Despite the marketing PR of the OEMs. > > “Modern” batteries - We differ on definition of modern EV versus not. I view > the not- modern ones > to be the ones that were common in the late-1800s to the early 1900s. > > Besides the chemistry of the battery, how else do they differ? How would you > view those BEVs or > fuel cells that use completely different chemistries?
Ok fine. Since a FCEV uses motors, controllers and batteries, that are essentially the same as BEVs, that means that both FCEV and BEV have been under development for exactly the same length of time, regardless of what start date you choose. If you want to separate out Fuel Cell developement, the first fuel cell was developed a couple years before the first Lead-Acid battery and about 30 years before the first EV. > Number of stations - where did you find the incorrect numbers at DOE? > > If you look at the above document, 31 stations in 2017, 39 in 2018, 44 in > 2019, 58 in 2020 (given > date of document, this would have to be projected), and projected 2021 of 62. That document CLEARLY states those are "projected" numbers. " The latest pre-COVID projections show that up to 58 stations may achieve Open-Retail status by the end of 2020" DOE's website shows a total of 53 stations currently active in the US and Canada with 45 stations in California. https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=HY > In comparing infrastructure numbers, what would be interesting is a > comparison on an apples to > apples basis. What’s the fueling/recharging capacity that is equivalent? I > know it’s been done > someplace. How is comparing the number of stations that are ACTUALLY open not an "apples to apples" comparison? My original question was about the ACTUAL advantages/disadvantages of FCEV vs BEV. Outside of California the average state in the USA has about 1,000 BEV charging stations and on average about zero Hydrogen fueling stations. No matter how you twist it I can't see that as anything other than overwhelming disavantage for FCEV, a disadvantage that is so significant that non of the advantages, that you have so far failed to post, could possibly overcome. > One thing you must also recognize is that subsidies for the two technologies > have been very uneven > (I think something like a 5:1 or more ratio). Again, not a factor in “which > one is better”. Yes I've read that Toyota and Honda are heavily subsidizing the cost of their FCEVs, but you're right, the average consumer doesn't care home much someone else is subsidizing something, they just care about what they have to pay. > A further interesting comparison is the pathway to self-sufficiency for > infrastructure. I know the > fuel cell industry has done it, but don’t know if there is a similar path on > the BEV side. That > COULD impact a consumer’s view. According to this report (produced last year) self sufficent hydrogen stations are at least a decade away https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/ab_8_self_sufficiency_report_draft_ac.pdf There are numerous self contained solar powered BEV charging stations, both public and private, that have been in use for years. While I currently charge my BEV with solar power I produce myself, it's not technically self sufficent since I'm still connected to the grid. I'm in the process of building an off-grid solar powered charging station, and then eventually taking my whole house off grid. I've already purchased the solar panels, inverter, and a dual cord, level-2 EVSE. So far it's cost me about $2,600. Currently I'm using old NiCad batteries, eventually I'll buy some LiIon batteries for it. It should be capable of providing ~70 miles range per day on average. I was trying to find a home hydrogen fueling station, I couldn't find anyone that was actually selling one yet. I read about one guy that built his own hydrogen production system capable of running his house, but it cost him something like six hundred thousand dollars. He posted a couple years ago that he thought it could be done for less than two hundred thousand now. His system stored the hydrogen at very low pressure, around 250 psi as I recall. From what I've read, the pumps capable of safely compressing hydrogen (without it exploding) are incredibly expensive as well. The $3,000-$4,000 extra it would cost to buy enough additional solar panels to produce the same range in hydrogen is chump change compared to the hundreds of thousands of dollars it would cost to buy the equipment capable of safely producing, compressing, and storing hydrogen. Economies of scale help the public hydrogen fueling station, for the same number of miles per day they could potentially be built for only 10-20x as much as a self sufficient BEV charging center. Again, I don't see anyway that can be considered anything other than a disadvantage for FCEV. _______________________________________________ Address messages to [email protected] No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
