On 10 Jul 2011, at 15:20, Craig Weinberg wrote:

You might find out that molecules in brain are unconscious too.

The fact that consciousness changes predictably when different
molecules are introduced to the brain, and that we are able to produce
different molecules by changing the content of our consciousness
subjectively suggests to me that it makes sense to give molecules the
benefit of the doubt.

All right, but then honesty should force you to do the same with computer ships. Unless you presuppose the molecules not being Turing emulable.



What in the brain would be not Turing emulable

Let's take the color yellow for example. If you build a brain out of
ideal ping pong balls, or digital molecular emulations, does it
perceive yellow from 580nm oscillations of electromagnetism
automatically, or does it see yellow when it's own emulated units are
vibrating on the functionally proportionate scale to itself? Does the
ping pong ball brain see it's own patterns of collisions as yellow or
does yellow = electromagnetic ~580nm and nothing else. At what point
does the yellow come in? Where did it come from? Were there other
options? Can there ever be new colors? From where? What is the minimum
mechanical arrangement required to experience yellow?

Any mechanical arrangement defining a self-referentially correct machine automatically leads the mechanical arrangement to distinguish third person point of view and first person points of view. The machine already have a theory of qualia, with an explanation of why qualia and quanta seems different.





You need to speculate
on a new physics,

Yes, I do speculate on a new physics. I think that what we can
possibly see outside of ourselves is half of what exists.

I agree. But this is a consequence of comp, and it leads to a derivation of physics from computer science/machine's theology. No need to introduce any physics (old or new).



What we
experience is only a small part of the other half. Physics wouldn't
change, but it would be seen as the exterior half of a universal
topology. I did a post this morning that might help: 
http://s33light.org/post/7453105138

That's certainly *looks* like the arithmetical plotinian physics. Again, you can extract it (or have to extract it for getting the correct quanta/qualia) from computer science (actually from just addition and multiplication and a small amount of logic).


I do appreciate your point, and I think there is great value in
studying cognitive mechanics and pursuing AGI regardless of it's
premature assumption to lead to synthetic consciousness.

I don't really do that. I don't think that consciousness can be created or be synthetic. It is not the product of any machine, natural or artificial. Such machines only filter consciousness and select relative partial realities. My main point is that this is testable. It already explains non locality, indeterminacy, non-cloning of matter, and some formal aspect of quantum mechanics.



I think that
physicalism and mechanism are both useful in their appropriate
contexts -

Mechanism and physicalism are incompatible.



the brain does have physical organization which determines
how consciousness develops,

I do agree with this.


just as a cell phone or desktop determines
how the internet is presented. It's a bidirectional flow of influence.
We unknowingly affect the brain and the brain unknowingly affects us.
They are two intertwined but mutually ignorant topologies of the same
ontological coin.

That is too vague. It can make sense in the computationalist theory. yet the brain itself is a construct of the mind. Not the human mind but the relative experience of the many universal numbers/ computational histories. This follows from the digital mechanist hypothesis.

Bruno




Craig


On Jul 9, 2:35 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 09 Jul 2011, at 18:58, Craig Weinberg wrote:

Sure, it would be great to have improved synthetic bodies, but I have
no reason to believe that depth and quality of consciousness is
independent from substance. If I have an artificial heart, that
artificiality may not affect me as much as having an artificial leg,
however, an artificial brain means an artificial me, and that's a
completely different story. It's like writing a computer program to
replace computer users. You might find out that digital circuits are
unconscious by definition.

You might find out that molecules in brain are unconscious too.
What in the brain would be not Turing emulable? You need to speculate
on a new physics, or on the fact that a brain would be a very special
analogical infinite machine. Why not?
You might still appreciate my point. I don't think that today someone
shown that comp leads to a contradiction, but comp leads to a
reappraisal of the relation between first person and 3 person, or, at
some other level, of consciousness and matter, and this in a testable
way.
But there is no problem with what you say. If you believe in
physicalism, then indeed mechanism is no more an option.
In my opinion, mechanism is more plausible than physicalism, and also
more satisfactory in explaining where the "illusion" of matter come
from. Actually I don't know of any other explanation.

Bruno











On Jul 9, 12:14 am, Kim Jones <kimjo...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
Indeed, why? Any talk of 'artificial circuits' might risk the
patient saying 'No' to the doctor. I want real, digital circuits.
Meat circuits are fine, though there might be something better. I
mean, if something better than 'skin' comes along, I'll swap my
skin for that. Probably need the brain upgrade anyway to read the
new skin. You could even make me believe I had a new skin via the
firmware in the brain upgrade. No need to change skin at all.

I could even sell you a brain upgrade that looked like it was
composed of meat when in fact it was a bunch of something else. You
only have to believe what your brain presents you.

Kim Jones

On 09/07/2011, at 12:44 PM, meekerdb wrote:

Replacing parts of the brain depends what the artificial circuits
are
made of. For them to be experienced as something like human
consciousness then I think they would have to be made of biological
tissue.

Why?  Biological tissue is made out of protons, neutrons, and
electrons just like computer chips.  Why should anything other
than their input/output function matter?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com .
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group 
athttp://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en .


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

Reply via email to